38/45 Loading-Feedback please

[kywoodwrkr]

As title says-need feedback on the loading and feeding of a 38/45.
Procurred a bad 45 barrel from a member here, thanks Bob, and in the insuing PMs I obtained a set of 38/45 dies from him as well(owe big time for this favor!).
Have had 38 Super barrels(3 or 4) and reamer for about 30 years now so think it's time I started working on some loadings.
Anyone have a working knowledge of this critter?
Thanks.
Dave

[docone31]

A buddy of mine had one way back when. He told me it would eat anything!
Go for it.
It is a fun cartridge.

[HeavyMetal]

Look for some of Dean Grennell's stuff. He had a love affair with the 38/45 for many years the trick is finding his old stuff.

Don't know if gun world is offering his collected works or not, they should!

[StarMetal]

Been shooting it for over 20 years. My barrel is a 9mm Colt. I fitted it to my Gold Cup. Accurate son of a gun. You have to watch primer flow into the firing pin hole. What happens then is the firing pin hole cuts little brass donuts. It's a hot round, depending how you load it, for a large primer firing pin system. Actually one should have the firing pin hole bushed to the 9mm/38super size. Also forget what you've heard about sizing down and trimming 308 rifle brass for it to gain strength. Too much work and PITA. Bo Clerke came out with this round to make a super feeling target round. It didn't take long for the nuts to get a hold of it and hot rod it. Bad thing to do in a unsupported 1911 barrel.

My target load and general load is anywhere from 5.0 grains to 6.0 grains of Unique with a 124 TC 9mm cast bullet. When I got my dies a reloading book came with it and they were all hot loads which I won't print here nor advise. I made a barrel for a friend and told him not to load it hot. He did. Ended up blowing the grips off the frame and the magazine out of the pistol when a case web ruptured.

Other then those precautions it's a great round. Feeds like owl poop and is deadly accurate, at least out of my Gold Cup. We're talking easy 1/2 groups at 25 yards. Flat shooter too and flat for some distance.

Oh almost forgot, I like sizing and trimming 45 Win Mag brass as it's a little heavier then 45 acp brass.

Joe

[Echo]

I had one. Many years ago, when Bo Clerke was pushing this thing, I had Jim Clark make a barrel for me, and tried my hand at it. I was a new shooter, but had no problems with it. But.

I didn't try pushing it. The boiler room is actually LESS than a .38 Special, so there is no way it is going to be a really stout round.

Bo designed it as a target round, believing that feeding would be more reliable stuffing a .38 size bullet into a .45 chamber. Actually, a solution looking for a problem. As noted above, the base of the case is not supported, and splinters in the hands from blown cases blowing out the grips and mag are natural results of trying to hot-rod the round. For target work, it's great...

[StarMetal]

I had one. Many years ago, when Bo Clerke was pushing this thing, I had Jim Clark make a barrel for me, and tried my hand at it. I was a new shooter, but had no problems with it. But.

I didn't try pushing it. The boiler room is actually LESS than a .38 Special, so there is no way it is going to be a really stout round.

Bo designed it as a target round, believing that feeding would be more reliable stuffing a .38 size bullet into a .45 chamber. Actually, a solution looking for a problem. As noted above, the base of the case is not supported, and splinters in the hands from blown cases blowing out the grips and mag are natural results of trying to hot-rod the round. For target work, it's great...

You're wrong about it not being a stout round. It will push 115 and 124 grain 9mm bullets over 1600 fps without blowing if you know what you're doing. Would you consider that stout enough? Comparing boiler room to some other cartridge isn't solid fact. The name of the game is pressure. Pressure can build very high in small capacity cases too.

Joe

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Dean Grennell did a lot of work with it and wrote on it extensively in his series, titled " The ABS's of reloading ". He mentions Clerke and Stone, forming cases, choices/sources of barrels, powders and working up loads, the results as well as the problems he encountered and surmounted. Really good reading. LLS

[StarMetal]

Dean Grennell did a lot of work with it and wrote on it extensively in his series, titled " The ABS's of reloading ". He mentions Clerke and Stone, forming cases, choices/sources of barrels, powders and working up loads, the results as well as the problems he encountered and surmounted. Really good reading. LLS

He must not have known what he was doing if he had lot's of problems. The brass is easy can be to form. Only problem I had which I knew I would have is the large firing pin hole. How many brass choices are there to chose from besides 06 head size rifle, 45 acp, and the 45 Win mag? Heck I don't think the 45 Win mag and other 45 acp like cases were around back when this round first came out.

Here's a pic of it.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/38-45.jpg

Joe

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

read the articles. He was able to blow up barrels pretty easy in the 70's. Today the 9x25 Dillon is the answer. If your velocities are correct you have more velocity than the Dillon; which produces enough gas to actually flame cut compensators and crack frames. You have less than half that case capacity. Do you have a fully supported barrel? I am V-E-R-Y glad you don't detonate things like this anywhere in my part of the country.

Rich

[StarMetal]

read the articles. He was able to blow up barrels pretty easy in the 70's. Today the 9x25 Dillon is the answer. If your velocities are correct you have more velocity than the Dillon; which produces enough gas to actually flame cut compensators and crack frames. You have less than half that case capacity. Do you have a fully supported barrel? I am V-E-R-Y glad you don't detonate things like this anywhere in my part of the country.

Rich

The 357 Sig isn't shabby either.

Joe

[mpmarty]

I had a 38/45 in the early seventies and still have some sample cartridges. I swaged half jackets to .356/357 with a C&H Swagomatic and used copious amounts of Herco as a propellant. My barrel had practically no feed ramp whatsoever and the case head was very well supported. Jack rabbits would practically disintegrate when hit with one of these but in those days I lacked a chronograph and have no idea what the actual velocity was. Primers definitely flowed back into the breech face hole until I had it bushed for a smaller firing pin. The bushing was larger than .210" and the fired cases on max loads would show the ring around the bushing as a raised impression. I'd guess these loads were pushing fifty thousand psi in my old Remington 1911. Had a 22lb recoil spring and a shock buffer ala Kings gun works. I finally just got tired of messing with it.

[StarMetal]

I had a 38/45 in the early seventies and still have some sample cartridges. I swaged half jackets to .356/357 with a C&H Swagomatic and used copious amounts of Herco as a propellant. My barrel had practically no feed ramp whatsoever and the case head was very well supported. Jack rabbits would practically disintegrate when hit with one of these but in those days I lacked a chronograph and have no idea what the actual velocity was. Primers definitely flowed back into the breech face hole until I had it bushed for a smaller firing pin. The bushing was larger than .210" and the fired cases on max loads would show the ring around the bushing as a raised impression. I'd guess these loads were pushing fifty thousand psi in my old Remington 1911. Had a 22lb recoil spring and a shock buffer ala Kings gun works. I finally just got tired of messing with it.

Good stuff. I only disagree with you in your loads guesstimated ran 50K. No way. That's getting up to 454 Casual pressures.

See someone else found out and knew about bushing the firing pin hole.

Joe

[sdalcher]

Interesting reading! Revive this thread. Anyone still shooting a Clerke 38/45? Love to learn some more.

[Scharfschuetze]

Interesting reading! Revive this thread. Anyone still shooting a Clerke 38/45? Love to learn some more.

I didn't note the posting dates when I started reading, but youre post corrected that. It's been a while since this thread died.

I've had a 38/45 for many years, and while I don't shoot it much, it is fun.

Unlike the previous posters or yore, I don't try to make a 9mm Super out of mine. With its unsupported feed ramp area, I'm happy with velocities in the neighborhood of 1,000 fps with the usual 9mm projectiles. My barrel was made from a Colt 9X19 GM barrel and is .355" or so in its dimensions. It works well with .355" or .357" diameters.

If memory serves me right, this cartridge was developed to fill the void in the 38 calibre portion of the 2700 bullseye course of fire. If you recall, one shot a third of the course with a 22LR, a third with a 38 calibre and the last third with the 45 calibre pistol. Unlike the military teams shooting their 38 AMUs out of Government Models (they were accurate!), civilians usually didn't have a purpose made 38 calibre pistol for the 38 portion, but they were allowed to use the 45 ACP in the 38 stage. The 38/45 gave shooters the ability to easily convert their 45 ACP pistols into 38 cal pistols right on the firing line with only a change in bushing, barrel and op rod spring. No need for different magazines as the 45 mags do just fine. The advantage in doing so was the reduced recoil in the timed and rapid fire stages of the course.

I form my cases with an RCBS case forming kit and also load on RCBS dies.

If you insist on really hopping up the cartridge, a ramped barrel is in order or you can use the previously mentioned 45 Winchester Magnum cases. Personally, were I to follow that prescription, I would try using 308 Winchester cases (I use them for 45 ACP shot loads) and I would also use a shock buffering device such as the Wilson unit below. The rifle cases would probably require some reaming of the neck to make 'em work as that brass is probably pretty thick where the 38/45 neck would be.

I'll dig out my set up and post a picture later today.

[sdalcher]

Good information, thank you

[Scharfschuetze]

As promised. My Series 70 Government Model built up as a "Hardball" gun for duty, action matches and for limited bullseye shooting.

Photos show the form and loading dies on the shelf and the Colt with its optional 38/45 barrel, and bushing. The shock buffer is what I install for heavy loads, although it really doesn't get used much as the main diet of this handgun is 200 grain SWC (RCBS or equivalent) cast boolits at around 800 fps.

PS: Nice collection of Airborne patches in your avitar Sdalcher. Feet and knees together!

[ironhead7544]

IIRC, the 38-45 was meant to get the 38 wadcutter to feed in the 1911 without a lot of work and special magazines.

It can be hot loaded carefully. Probably best to just get a 357 SIG conversion today.

[sdalcher]

Where is the fun in having something anybody can buy ;-)

Thanks Scharf and all for your input.

[dondiego]

Have they come out with the .40-.45 yet?

[rond]

400 Cor-Bon

[John J]

Hello there

I have what your looking for its dated May 1 1975 (use the data at your own risk) this article was taken from whitney sales inc. (See attached PDF)

158837

[Scharfschuetze]

Thanks for that John!

I saved it to my reloading file for future reference. I've really got to load this calibre again. So much to do and so little time! I seem to be busier as a retiree now that... well that's not true so I'd better get those dies out after I work up a Blue Dot load for my 1903 Springfield.

[blikseme300]

400 Cor-Bon

I still have a barrel & bushing with reloading dies for this cartridge but the 10mm Delta Elite is a much better fit for me. The Cor-Bon is interesting but a niche interest that does not hold my attention any more. So many calibers in the 1911, not enough time.

[vzerone]

It is true that the 38/45 wasn't meant for hot loading, but it can be done with some changes. One: you have to bush the firing pin hole in the slide to 9mm/38Super. If you don't the larger firing pin hole will cut donuts from the primer. Two: It's best you have a ramped barrel that supports all the web on the case. Three: You can make cases from 308 Win, but it's a lot of work, but if you want to use large rifle primers and get away from bushing the firing pin hole to the smaller size you need the rifle cases for the primers to seat fully below flush. I suggest this too if you're going to use an unramped barrel. You can get away with 45acp cases or 45 Win Mag cases in the ramped barrel. You can also get away using all the above in an unramped barrel if you keep the loads down.

The round will blow the doors off the 357 Sig with the things done above.

If you're using a 9mm/38 super slide and opening up the breech face to accept the larger 435acp rim you of course don't have to bush the firing pin hole.

I find the 38/45 in a tuned 1911 to be extremely accurate. My bottom line advice is enjoy it for what it is and don't try to hot rod it.

[H3R3T1K]

Hey guys. I hope it's OK to revive this old thread with my first post. It's hard to find info on this round. I know it started life as a target round but what I've been wondering the whole time is what it would've been like as service round for police. Imagine the .38 SPL 158gr soft LSWHPGC +P load (maybe around 1200fps) but from a 1911 at standard .45 pressures. What a duty gun/round combo that would've been in the early sixties. And now!

[Kitika]

I've loaded 155gn round nose over a nice slow powder and got 1200-1250fps. Goes off with a nice kaboom compared to the little nine mil.

[Green Frog]

An old friend of mine, now long deceased, was on the Navy Pistol Team back in the late '50s and through the '60s. He was a gunsmith for the team under the legendary Charlie Frasier and they had pretty much free rein to experiment on whatever they could build to gain an edge on other teams. Among other things, they designed and built what they called "Zip Guns" using 1911 frames and Model 52 Winchester barrels along with part of an Ace slide to build something like the later Kart and Day conversions.

Steve had a 38/45 he had built and with it was able to set a record one year for the CF timed fire leg at Camp Perry. I thought he was shining me on until I actually saw his name in the records for that year. Needless to say, he shot his way to Distinguished Expert. I bring all this up to say that the round as originally designed was a world class target round. Once you go to high speed/high pressure loads, it's another animal entirely and you're on your own.

Froggie

[beagle]

Dave, think I have the Grenell .45 book up in the shop. I'll look tomorrow. If I don't PM you, bug me about it. One of the guys at the MTU at Ft Bragg had one back in the 60s and shot it a lot. As I recall it did pretty well but there was a problem with reloading the fired cases. Maybe getting the headspace correct. Been so long I don't recall./beagle

[H3R3T1K]

Do you guys think that 158gr LSWCHPGC at 1200fps would be possible at or under 21k PSI? I'm asking because in the 60s HPs weren't what they are now with regards to reliability but the FBI load in .38 SPL +P was a proven performer. Getting the same performance from a semi auto famous for its reliability and concealability would've been a feat.

[Teacher_of_the_Arcane]

Okay .... Two years farther down the road, I've got a 38-45 barrel on order, and am looking for any and all info on this round !!

[vzerone]

Dave, think I have the Grenell .45 book up in the shop. I'll look tomorrow. If I don't PM you, bug me about it. One of the guys at the MTU at Ft Bragg had one back in the 60s and shot it a lot. As I recall it did pretty well but there was a problem with reloading the fired cases. Maybe getting the headspace correct. Been so long I don't recall./beagle

I can't imagine a headspacing problem if you set your sizer die correctly.

[bruce drake]

Scharfschuetze,

You still use that 38-45 barrel on a regular basis? This thread has serious legs. :)

[bruce drake]

I found a barrel, bushing and die set on Gunbroker.com today for my 38-45 Clerke 1911 pistol project. Once the barrel and dies arrive, I'll work to set up some range time to give a report on how it goes.

If all works well, I'll have a pistol with three fitted slide groups for that particular frame: 45ACP; .400 CorBon and now 38-45 Clerke.


Bruce

[Green Frog]

I found a barrel, bushing and die set on Gunbroker.com today for my 38-45 Clerke 1911 pistol project. Once the barrel and dies arrive, I'll work to set up some range time to give a report on how it goes.

If all works well, I'll have a pistol with three fitted slide groups for that particular frame: 45ACP; .400 CorBon and now 38-45 Clerke.


Bruce

What, no 22 "zip gun" like the Navy, Air Force, and Kart built? [smilie=l:

Froggie

[bruce drake]

I have no desire to shoot a .22 in any of my 1911s. I didn't need the 38-45 barrel but I wanted it to see what I could do with it. I own a ruger 22-45 for the Rimfire portion of the Bullseye Course of fire.

The Marvel Conversions are nice but i won't waste the money on them.

[Green Frog]

The theory behind having different “uppers” for a single Gov’t Model receiver was that if you built one lower and got completely used to it, you could shoot better overall regardless of the caliber being shot... but then it seemed like too much effort to swap out parts, so each upper got its own receiver. At that point you’re still building multiple guns so you might as well have each purpose built gun be the best for its caliber... enter the S&W Model 41 and High Standard Victor (among others) for 22, the S&W Model 52 and some of the European 32s for the Centerfire leg, and of course the good old accurized Gov’t Model for the 45 leg. Then some folks trimmed it down to shooting both of the center fire legs with the same 45. ;)

Back to the OP though, a well built 38/45 in the right hands and a Model 52 with another good shooter would be a fair contest, right up until their owners had to replenish their brass supply! Then the S&W wins hands down and its owner is sipping adult beverages while the 38/45 guy is slaving over a forming die! [smilie=b:

Froggie

[Green Frog]

PS to last: Once the “Military Grip” High Standard was developed, the various 22 uppers for the Gov’t Model became superfluous. With that, the S&W Model 41, and the Ruger 22/45 to choose from, the grip angle of old slab sides was sufficiently copied to be able to concentrate on purpose building the 22 inside. :smile:

Froggie

[Patrick L]

Bruce, I played with this extensively over the last year or so. A friend GAVE me his late stepfather's barrel, bushing, forming dies, and reloading dies. I had a few dedicated threads going, one of which you just replied to.

My intent was in keeping with its original purpose, namely a soft recoiling accurate .38 caliber on the 1911 format to shoot NRA Bullseye. So, all my loads were geared to that. What I settled on was a 124 grain Lee TLTC bullet, 3.5 gr Bullseye, and a 10# Wolf variable rate spring. Also, I found that reforming new, virgin .45 ACP cases was very easy. I got zero failures to form. Using many times fired cases resulted in lots of splits and buckles. Oh also, my forming die set is 4 dies, but the FL sizer die in the reloading die set serves as the 5th forming die. Your set(s) my differ.

I tried a few 158 gr SWCs that I had molds for, they all shot fine, I also played with full wadcutter 148 gr bullets. They shot very accurately, but I could never get 100% function with them. Close, but not 100%. Oddly, the one dummy round that was in with the stuff I was given was loaded with exactly that.

Many have mentioned the writings of Dean Grennel. While I am a HUGE DG fan, he focused on the later (in the 80s) attempts at hotrodding this round into a .357 magnum, or as close as possible. I have no problem with people doing this, but like I said it was just not my objective.

These should be links to my threads. I got a lot of helpful information in them from the guys here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?366646-School-me-on-the-38-45-Clerk&highlight=
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?372130-Update-on-38-45-Clerke-project&highlight=

[DonHowe]

I didn't note the posting dates when I started reading, but youre post corrected that. It's been a while since this thread died.

I've had a 38/45 for many years, and while I don't shoot it much, it is fun.

Unlike the previous posters or yore, I don't try to make a 9mm Super out of mine. With its unsupported feed ramp area, I'm happy with velocities in the neighborhood of 1,000 fps with the usual 9mm projectiles. My barrel was made from a Colt 9X19 GM barrel and is .355" or so in its dimensions. It works well with .355" or .357" diameters.

If memory serves me right, this cartridge was developed to fill the void in the 38 calibre portion of the 2700 bullseye course of fire. If you recall, one shot a third of the course with a 22LR, a third with a 38 calibre and the last third with the 45 calibre pistol. Unlike the military teams shooting their 38 AMUs out of Government Models (they were accurate!), civilians usually didn't have a purpose made 38 calibre pistol for the 38 portion, but they were allowed to use the 45 ACP in the 38 stage. The 38/45 gave shooters the ability to easily convert their 45 ACP pistols into 38 cal pistols right on the firing line with only a change in bushing, barrel and op rod spring. No need for different magazines as the 45 mags do just fine. The advantage in doing so was the reduced recoil in the timed and rapid fire stages of the course.

I form my cases with an RCBS case forming kit and also load on RCBS dies.

If you insist on really hopping up the cartridge, a ramped barrel is in order or you can use the previously mentioned 45 Winchester Magnum cases. Personally, were I to follow that prescription, I would try using 308 Winchester cases (I use them for 45 ACP shot loads) and I would also use a shock buffering device such as the Wilson unit below. The rifle cases would probably require some reaming of the neck to make 'em work as that brass is probably pretty thick where the 38/45 neck would be.

I'll dig out my set up and post a picture later today.
NRA 2700 tournaments did/do include .22LR, centerfire (any) and .45acp.
Many shooters used .38 caliber for reduced recoil in the centerfire stage. Some used .38 wadcutter guns, 1911s or S&W 52s. The .38/45 was meant to solve feeding problems some wadcutter guns suffered.
Eventually most, myself included, found it an easier solution to shoot all centerfire with the .45. Unless one could afford (notI) 3 high dollar custom guns, all on 1911 frames with identical feel and trigger pull, etc, then switching between 2 guns is enough. I didn't like the difference in trigger feel between squeaky clean and "fouled".

In the game the .38/45 was created for anything beyond adequate velocity brings only disadvantages.