Venturino article

[Dew]

In a recent article, Mike Venturino wrote about shooting lead bullets after not cleaning and having shot copper bullets. He says in so many words that he didn't think it made much difference. He was shooting military rifles and if you read the article you will know that much of what he stated has not been the way most of us have read in the past about cleaning/not cleaning before and after using cast.
I would like to hear from those who read the article and your thoughts about his findings.

Dew

[870TC]

maybe start here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=66157&highlight=myths

[Dew]

870TC

Thanks for the plug. Saved me a lot of time.

Dew

[Guesser]

He did say that for most of his shooting life, he has subscribed to the theory of: Make sure all copper is out before shooting lead and make sure all lead is out before shooting copper. After trying it for himself, he no longer believes it as "GOSPEL". I can see where a leaded barrel or a severely copper fouled barrel would be detrimental, but for me and the way I shoot, I have interspersed lead and copper rounds in several calibers and it did not make a noticeable difference for me. I kept my mouth shut until now because I was not willing to be ridiculed by "those in the know". I feel that now I can continue doing it my way with a clear conscience, as I never had a problem.

[Calamity Jake]

It doesn't bother me to shoot copper over lead, but the other way?

I think I will clean the out the copper first.

[BruceB]

I've also been a long-time practitioner of cleaning all the copper out before shooting lead.

On a few conspicuous occasions, I have fired jacketed bullets in a bore "conditioned" for lead, and have seen no bad effects from so doing.

I have a hunch that this might turn out to be a case of each rifle being a law unto itself, meaning that in some rifles we may well get away with firing cast loads right over the copper fouling. It's also quite possible that some rifles may not let us get away with it. Only one way to find out!

I read Mike's article, and found it to be valuable. As one who enjoys testing the myths/truisms of handloading, I can see that this topic could instigate some more research on my part.

[StarMetal]

I like to start with a clean barrel. I believe that's how it should be. If I'm going to be shooting lots of cast I'll clean that barrel out if it was shot with jacketed. Or the other way around. Now I have on occasion shot one type bullet through the barrel that was fouled with the other kind with no bad effects.

Joe

[mike in co]

i won't argue either side of the statement....i have a simple plan:
buy lots of guns, shoot copper in some and lead in others and don't worry about it!


yep my guns , for the most part are dedicated one format only..cast or jacketed.


thanks
mike in co

[runfiverun]

ditto what mike does.
i usually try both cast and jacketed, but some of mine are actually built and designed for j-words.
and others have never even seen nor do i own a single j-word bullet for them.

[DevilDog83]

I like Mike's plan

[9.3X62AL]

I was one of those whose mentor HAMMERED HOME the idea of cleaning bores of one type of fouling before shooting another type of bullet through them. I never really questioned the practice, because I never saw a bad result from having followed the practice.

To follow along with Mike in CO's line of reasoning, as time goes on my rifles and handguns become more "jacketed only" or "cast only" platforms, with a larger percentage using the cast slugs than the redcoated store-boughts. Most new guns get a couple hundred j-words run through them, often as factory-loaded ammo in case the new toy wants to be obstinate and prompt some warrantee revisitation with its birthplace. That done, the barrel gets cleaned thoroughly and its real life with castings or redcoats starts in earnest--all home-rolled ammo thereafter.

So, I really haven't "tested" Mike Venturino's theory in any depth. I surely respect his experience and judgement, and his assertion in this case is food for thought. Bullet jacket materials have come a long way since "Hatcher's Notebook" cited the copper-fouling issues in 30 caliber match ammo from between the world wars. And I think BruceB has a good idea in saying that such a condition may be a variable trait specific to the firearm itself. For my part, I'll continue 'tailoring' the bores of my rifles and handguns to the type of bullet/boolit being fired--with the idea that while it may not be doing a whole lot of good, I also don't believe it does any harm.

[Bret4207]

I think it's a "depends on" question. It all depends on the particular gun and load and what you're doing with it. I have at least one rifle I know of that fouls with jacket material pretty badly. It definitely requires a cleaning if I want to shoot cast. I have another I'm working with now that doens;t seems to care.

So I don't think there are hard and fast rules, but at the first sign of trouble, CLEAN IT!

[canyon-ghost]

You have something there, Bret. I did a 9mm load that fouled badly in a TC with a 1 in 12" twist. Then, I throw the same ammo in a S&W with a 1 in 18.35 twist, and voila, it thinks they are candy, shoots all you want without fouling.
It's a case of how the individual firearm handles it. For most purposes, clean the copper out first or it might be a nasty mess.

[44man]

Bret is correct again, it depends on the gun and how much copper it picks up.
I had a TC Contender that fouled so bad it would take several days to get the copper out and lead was a real pain. No amount of shooting or polishing helped so they replaced the barrel for me. The new barrel was WORSE!
Mike is right too and if your gun does not foul badly, you can interchange between lead and copper.
I still prefer to clean out the copper. I feel clean steel is more slippery to lead then copper is.
My BFR bores are smooth and if I shoot jacketed, then clean with Sweets, only the first patch has a little blue on it, hardly worth the effort. My old SBH is shot so smooth, it is the same.

[Char-Gar]

Mike did us all a good service when he wrote the article.

IMHO metal fouling, at some point in it's build up, will be destructive to cast bullets. The question being, where is that point? Will regular and normal cleaning after firing those dreadful little yellow thingies prevent that point from every being reached.

I suspect some of the more science minded among us will do some through testing to answer these questions, thus moving the craft forward a notch.

None-the-less, when newbies come to this board with mil-surp rifles, or used rifles and don't seem to be able get cast bullets to produce, my counsel will still be the same. Clean that barrel down to the steel and start over. I am also certain, there will be some that say.."Mike says that is a myth".

I truly appreciate Mike and his keeping bullet casting in front of the shooting public. I also realize the parameters of writing for the pulp press are different from the parameters of posting on this board. He is a good guy, a very knowledable shooter, a far better than average writer, and an asset to the sport. May his tribe increase!

[cajun shooter]

I have yet to read the article but have a lot of faith in what Mike decides to go to print. I also have great respect for the members of this forum and the ones who have already posted. I'm 62 and from the old school of doing things but that's not to say that I will not try something new. In the past I have always cleaned any gun after firing either of the ones that we use before using the other. I think that the post by Bret is dead on in that it would be a depends type of problem. As we all know each gun that we have is different from another that is just like it. What works for me might be a real PITA for you. Later David

[stocker]

A lot of us are shooting old rifles whether sporting or military. I am certain some of the rifles I have picked up have never once in their long lives had a decent barrel cleaning other than to remove dust, water or cobwebs. A couple of quick passes with an oiled patch to prevent rust probably. Some were so copper fouled they no longer shot jacketed bullets worth spit. After rigorous cleaning very good bores still existed in some of them.

Without getting into the minute changes in grouping ability that a dedicated target shooter might determine I think the advice to remove all copper probably originated from poor long term maintenance of rifle bores. A let's find out what we've got in here approach before I waste a pile of ammo.

I have used jacketed and cast interchangeably in many rifles and revolvers for 55 years. The bulk of my shooting is with cast whether range practice or hunting but I don't hesitate to switch to jacketed any time the situation requires it. My rifles get bores cleaned as often as I can detect a diminishment in accuracy or if they are used in weather conditions that may damage them. I do a lot more cleaning because of weather than I do to remove fouling of any description. I almost dread the cleaning process to get to bare metal, not because it is a chore but because I know some shooting will be required just to condition the bore again to best performance level. Some rifles only need a couple of fouling shots (I'll mention these don't have the slickest bores) while some very good barrels take up to a dozen or more before they settle in. The chronograph reveals that velocity can vary a lot through this conditioning process as does POI at the target.

I think Mike is right with a bit of common sense applied.

[Wayne Smith]

Kudos to Mike for writing it with just that common sense included. He limited his comments to milsurps and to a little use of condom bullets, not to metal fouled bores and specifically not to competitive shooting. In other words, I read him to say that his statement doesn't count where accuracy matters greatly.

If somebody says to me that Mike says it doesn't matter I'll say back "Read him again, boy!"