44Man questions on super accuracy

[Willbird]

Mr. 44man, you seem to have wrung some great groups out of revolvers, not that your the only one who has, all others please comment too.

1. When you find a load that shoots with a certian boolit is it super sensitive to the primer you use, the powder charge, the seating depth ??

2.And if the boolit shoots at say 1250 fps with powder XYZ-19 does it also seem to shoot well at 1250 fps with another powder ?? IE is the sweet spot related strictly to velocity ?

My revolvers do not have scopes so I will probably never be able to prove I have found a load that shoots as well as yours do but I'm willing to listen to all the info I can get. I have worked with 45 acp quite a bit and with that caliber in a GOOD pistol I feel bullet quality is the key variable to 3moa or better accuracy but from what you have said in 44 magnum more is going on, most 45 acp is subsonic so that may explain the differance somewhat.

Bill

[Buckshot]

...........Just remember that your firearm has to have the mechanical ability to shoot well, to begin with. All the load workup pains is to no avail in some obstinate *** [smilie=b:. My Witness 38 Super shoots like a ray gun. Swap in the 45ACP bbl and slide and it's a scattergun.

...............BUckshot

[buck1]

I have had several 44s and have never had one that wouldnt shoot 20 gr of 2400 with a 240-250 gr bullet just real darn good. read as 1 hole at 15 yds and under 2" at 25 yds 4" at 100.
Mag primers seem to edge out the large pistol primers a little.

And with the 2400 just about any listed charge with a heavy crimp will shoot very well. IMR 4227 works nicely too. ....Buck

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
As noone has answered your vel. question I'll put in my .02 . I've noticed that simular vel. produced w/ diff. powders w/ the same bullet yeld simular accuracy in rifles. This has to do w/ the barrels harmonics & the bullet leaving at simular points in the barrels vibrations ,I believe.
I don't know if this has acually been documented in scientific test however.
Also I don't know if this is the case in pistols, but its possible it does.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI AGAIN,
To answer your 1st question, sometimes it does matter. At least to the benchrest paper punchers. We're talking sub MOA groups here. But for plinking don't worry about it as most guns will shoot better than most of us normal frail humans can, even in position shooting.

[Willbird]

This thread I was hoping would deal with sub 2moa accuracy with factory stock big bore revolvers like 44man has talked about doing.

Oh well hehe


Bill

[joeb33050]

This thread I was hoping would deal with sub 2moa accuracy with factory stock big bore revolvers like 44man has talked about doing.
Oh well hehe
Bill
I've been working with a M29 8 3/8" 4X Simmons Scope for over a year, kept records of every group shot. For 33 sets of groups the average 6 shot 50 yard group size is 3.581". I also record the "best 5 shot group"; the average is 2.489".
This is all with a BIG 429421, unsized, pan lubed with Darr or Darr + BW.
Powders include Unique, AA#9, Blue Dot and H110. Most accurate loads are 8.5-10 Unique, 22/H110. Trimmed brass, same make, annealed mouths, primer pocket uniformed, flash hole deburred-does it matter? Don't know.
BUT
A guy at the range gave me some 429421 HP bullets, recommended 8.5 Unique, I lubed with Darr + BW and shot them last week. 50 yards, 6 shots in 3.25", 2.6", 2.525", 2.875", 1.225". Avg 2.495", and the average of the best 5 shot groups was 1.88". This is the best this gun has ever done.
I think the bullet is the secret.
Keith says about several loads/guns that they will group into 1 1/2" at 50 yards consistently. Some shooters write about avaraging 2" groups at 50 yards and 4" 100 yard groups with revolvers. I'm not there yet.
Sub 2 MOA groups are under 4" at 100 yards, and I find that fairly easy to do after a bullet that fits the cylinder throats is found. Then I must have a scope, I'm 67, and the rest is very important. I use a rest made of PVC pipe that clamps to the barrel. Then I shoot off an 8" high box on the bench-the bench is too low for me to get my trifocals aimed right. With the rest and box and scope and my 429421 I can average a little over 3" 6 shot 50 yard groups, a little over 1 1/2 moa. I keep looking to improve.
joe b.

[Willbird]

Very interesting Joe.

2moa however at 100 yards is just over 2"

and 3" at 50 yds is almost 6 moa.

44man eluded before to the bullet being the secret, and that even small changes in boolit design threw things awry.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

44man eluded before to the bullet being the secret, and that even small changes in boolit design threw things awry.

This thread I was hoping would deal with sub 2moa accuracy with factory stock big bore revolvers like 44man has talked about doing.


Bill

Bill,

I have some time here so I will see if I stir up a hornets nest.

I believe that everything you do, or fail to do, can and does have an effect on everything else. There are enormous differences in shooting reloading styles. Soem of these realte to the type of gun we are using. As long as you can look at your target and understand how one variable effects another and vary your .... technique, top accuracy is very obtainable and reproducable.

The biggest end of the problem usually lies with us, as reloaders, being flexible enough to recognise and adapt. We settle into a pattern. And it just has to be, not just a certain way, but our way. We often don't like to consider change in order to make different designs work. Human nature I guess. As a result we use a change in bullet design to possibly correct for something we aren't doing, then we find accuracy. Then that is the design we like and as a result, becomes our favorite design until we depart this world.

Take someone who believes the semi wadcutter is the greatest thing since sliced bread. These people tend to size at throat diameter (which usually means below) As a result, they tend to find accuracy at two points (the extremes). Fast powders / low velocity or full charges of slow powder produce the best accuracy. Why? This is because they need to get pressure up to obturate an undersized bullet quickly to seal for proper ignition. Ignition is everything. Here crimp is important. This reloading style works great in handguns where alignment is close to ideal. Taylor throating would have little effect in this case for improving accuracy.

Take the guy that likes (finds success) the olgival designs. They are a stronger bullet design and aid to correct some alignment issues if they exist. Here you have the flexibility to size at throat .... or larger. If you do this, then ignition is aided by the throat sizing and many powders in several velocity ranges works well. Crimp is less important. Taylor throating "can" work wonders, especially if it is transitioning a .433 bullet down to a .429 bore. Here metal hardness or a change in bullet design can make huge differences to accuracy because it makes a huge differences to ignition and pressure.

If your reloading style or desire is to shoot cheap, then you want fast powders. You probably like semis. If you want full power, you probably favor the olgival because it can aid ignition with slower powders better. If you shoot Smiths, the semies tend to be your game. If you shoot stronger handgun designs that may have some alignment issues and pressure is not a concern to handgun durability, then you learn how to take advantage of olgival designs. I personally shoot + .001 over throat. I know some guys that shoot what the cylinder will chamber. I know guys that get 4" groups at 200 yards by shooting .439 (no typo) bullets in .433 throats. One tore up a Mod 29 Smith like this in less than 2000 rounds. But now uses a Super Redhawk with over 40,000 rounds of shooting this way with no problems.

The whole problem lies with us learning how to control all the variables to maximize the advantages of each bullet style and firearm for the purpose desired. Then analizing results from our target, and take steps to improve accuracy if we were wrong with our initial guess. Then we must realize that we can't simply pass on our loads to others without passing on the entire technique package.

[44man]

Willbird, I have worked on the .44 since 1956 and spent years shooting and winning silhouette. The most important thing for accuracy is case tension on the bullet whether cast or condom. This must be very even. At one time I worked out a system to measure this as I seated the bullets. I could then sort into groups for silhouette and down to just plinkers. I found through many tests that the tight fitting bullets would shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's from a model 29, shooting creedmore from the side of my leg. Taking the looser fitting bullets would also give me a 1/2" group at 50 yd's. But this group would be as much as 10" from the first group. Now imagine what would happen if these loads were all mixed together. I spent years playing with crimps trying to correct bad bullet tension and it just DOES NOT WORK! A moderate crimp sufficient to hold the bullet under recoil is all that is needed. Anything more will just wear out the brass sooner. A very hard crimp on a cast boolit that is not extremely hard will scrape and size the boolit as it exits the crimp. A very soft boolit forced through a tight crimp will lead the bore and not be accurate. I shot rounds with no crimp (one at a time of course) all the way to a full profile that ruined the brass. No change in accuracy or powder burn worth worrying about was found. Fiddle with case tension however and you may as well throw the rounds downrange.
This is a reason I use hard boolits that fit close to the throat diameter. If you have good case tension and seat soft boolits, you will be sizing them in the case! Now with the hard crimp most guys think is needed, this already sized boolit will get even smaller as it is forced through the crimp. A hard boolit will iron out the crimp. Shooting soft boolits with a hard crimp always shows there is still some crimp remaining. Remember the gas pressure does not act on the part of the brass that contains the boolit until the boolit gets out of the way. Yeah, I know, everyone says the brass must expand .002" to allow the boolit to come free and I agree that some room is needed around the case, but nobody can explain to me how the gas acts on the brass when the boolit is in the way unless it blows past the boolit.
I no longer measure the seating pressure because I found that Hornady dies have the proper dimensions for most accuracy work. RCBS gave me the worst groups.
The next thing I do is to neck size to just below where the base of a seated boolit will be. No need to full length size for the same gun until they won't chamber. This will give better boolit alignment.
In the .44 Rugers I use 296 for heavy loads. I found this caliber does not care for magnum primers. Neither does the .45 Colt. Every time I used them to work loads, group size tripled. Some calibers like the .357, .475 and up need them for tight groups. I can give no reason for this but it is what happens to me.
I like the LBT and Lee boolits in the heavier weights for hunting. The best condom bullets are the 240 and 300 XTP's. Never got good groups with lighter bullets. A 250 Keith is good. Start at the low end and work up 1/2 gr at a time to find what the gun likes with the powder you choose and the boolit you have. If that doesn't work, try another powder. All of my Rugers would average around 1" at 50 yd's except a couple that would shoot 1-1/2". My SRH would sometimes get 1/2". I don't get them as small since I quit measuring tension. I quit silhouette.
I have owned 9 .44's over the years and just the one I have left (SBH) has over 56,000 rounds through it and I still get tight groups. Had to sell some to buy BIGGER revolvers.

[Willbird]

Mr.44, do you have any idea how much neck tension you end up with ??


I agree 100% that the ctg. case cannot expand until the base of the boolit reaches that area.

Bill

[44man]

No, I could not measure in pounds. I used a graduated rod that pulled through the press handle with a faucet washer that slid on it. The washer would stay on a line that I could read. I would reset it for each shell. This was attached to a spring steel rod with a handle on it. I would just start the boolit in the case with the press handle, then seat it with the spring rod.
The important thing is to get them all the same, that is why I switched to Hornady dies. The expander is exactly right. If your tension is too light, and you use magnum primers, the force of the primer can blow the boolit into the forcing cone before the powder gets a good burn going.
Sometimes boolit design can effect accuracy a lot, but most can be made to work by working loads again. Most troubles are from the wrong size or weight boolit. I find the LBT's are the most accurate and the Lee 310 gr. running right alongside it. For a condom bullet the XTP's are the most accurate bullets ever made.
I used to watch my friends bullets going down to 200 meters from his model 29. When using the 240 gr., the bullet would corkscrew around the line of flight. It would actually go towards the next ram in line before swinging back to the one he was shooting at. This was never seen from the Rugers. I switched him to a 265 gr. bullet and they would run a straight line. The twist was wrong for light bullets. By the way, there was never any top scores shot with a S&W. They are extremely grip sensitive. I would shoot the first five chickens at 50 m. dead center, a group that if you put one on top of another they would be 1/2" or less. Of course we had to put down the guns so the target setters could go out. When I picked it up for the next five, my grip would no longer be the same and I would miss all 5. You have to glue the gun to your hand so the grip never changes. Sold all my S&W's and went to Rugers. I can go back years in the IHMSA papers and never find a Smith shooting in the top scores, as accurate as the gun is.
Stay away from 4227 powder also, VERY heat sensitive. Velocity will increase and primers will start to flatten as the gun heats up. If the first ram is hit center, by the time one gets to the tenth ram, the sights will be cranked up almost all the way and the last shot will be 50 or 60 yd's short.
I never got tight groups from H110 even though it is the same powderas 296. Hodgden gets it from a different burn rate area then 296 is from. H110 works super in the standard Redhawk. The RH won't group with 296. The SRH and SBH loves 296.
For light loads I use Unique or 231 with good results. For hot loads, I will not use a fast powder. I stay with 296 and have shot to 500 meters with it. I kept 12 straight shots in a five gallon bucket at 400 meters. Kind of like shooting at the period at the end of this sentence.
Every time I read a gun test shot at 25 yd's that are 2 to 5 inches and the report is that the accuracy was great, I turn the page. Why in the world would anyone shoot a cannon that close is beyond me. I start at 50, go to 75 for my sight settings for deer and then go to 100 yd's. I want my 75 yd groups to be better then those guys get at 25. I have a coke can in the basement with holes in it from my SRH at 200 yd's. Anyone with a good load should be able to hit a gallon jug at 200 yd's every shot from Creedmore or from sandbags.
Another tip, NEVER, EVER lighten the mainspring on a gun! If accuracy falls off, buy a new mainspring. On a Smith, keep the strain screw tight. If anyone thinks their gun quit shooting because the barrel is worn out, they are wrong unless they let the cleaning rod rub the muzzle. Use a muzzle protector every time a rod is run down the bore. My 56,000 round Ruger will still hold an inch at 50 yd's. There is no wear on the gun at all except for a little sandblasting of the forcing cone. I use STP oil treatment on the ratchet and cylinder pin. Never cock the revolver fast (unless you shoot cowboy action) as this beats the locking notches and cylinder lock.
My BFR revolvers will shoot better then Rugers and Freedom arms guns. I have many 1/2" groups at 50 yd's but most average at an inch. I can't do it all the time because I am getting a little shaky and my vision is not as good anymore. Old age catches us all. Then after shooting thousands of heavy .475 loads, it kind of catches up to a guy too. My friends Freedom .475 REALLY has some recoil, about twice what the BFR has. Damned thing will give you carpel tunnel. The Freedoms twist rate is not fast enough for heavy boolits either. They prefer 350 grs. and below. The twist is 1 in 18 and the BFR is 1 in 15. The groups in the Freedom with 400 gr. boolits run around 3" or more. With a 325 groups they can be an inch or less.
My last word is that if you can feel a difference in seating pressure with the press handle, you will never shoot small groups. Have fun, guys!

[Willbird]

Thank you 44man

I need to ask what a BFR is...thereby exposing my ignroance of such :-)

What I was eluding to on the case neck tension is possibly using gage pins to measure the cases before seting bullets, these come in .001, .0005 increments. I have used them on rifle brass to see what kind of neck tension I end up with.

with only neck sizing a bushing die would be a handy setup but I don't think redding or wilson makes them big enough for 44 magnum, the Wilson ones you can turn them over and get .0005 smaller neck due to a slight taper in the bore.The Redding ones come TIN coated.

Bill

[44man]

Willbird, I went that route and had special measuring tools made up along with bushing dies. None of these worked and I drove myself nuts. No way to separate brass to see what bushing to use for each case. Brass hardness and how much each case springs back after shooting, sizing and expanding is the problem. Since revolver brass can not be annealed there is no way to solve this except to either measure seating tension or get the Hornady dies. If you anneal, you will not be able to hold boolits in when you shoot, don't even try it, I did and had to scrap the brass.
Believe me when I say the dies are most important. My boolits fit so tight I can see the grease grooves through the brass. This is no place for soft lead!
The BFR is a revolver made by Magnum Research (Desert Eagle fame). It means the biggest finest revolver but I think it means something other then "finest". Ruger makes the castings and all internal parts are Ruger. Some other company machines and fits them together. They are fit quite close, maybe not as tight as Freedom but very close. What I like is the longer cylinders, heavier barrels, reduced recoil and extreme accuracy for far less money then the Freedom. I paid $715 for my .475 out the door. My 45-70 was a little over $800. The 45-70 is FUN and deadly accurate. Go to the Magnum Research web site. My .44 and .45 have sat in the safe for a long time since I bought these, I just can't put them down. I tried an LBT 400 gr. wfn in the .475 since someone sent some for me to try. My first five at 50 yd's were in 5/8", I shot five more and the group opened to 1". most likely due to the way I held it for the next five. Hard to put down a gun and then try again. I have been very grateful to the nice guys on this site that have sent me boolits to try. There are great people here. I am more then happy to pass on what I have learned to all of you even if some of you have other ideas. I know that some things work and some don't and if any of my stuff helps someone, I am happy. This is a continual learning process and if anyone has ideas, I am ready to test them. I can learn too.
By the way, some guys use the .44 expander in .45's to get case tension. I don't know if a .41 expander will do the same for the .44. If anyone has done this, please post.

[Willbird]

If you can 44man please post a pic of the seating force setup, I just had an idear, that is scary hehe.

to use arbor press seater die and rig the arbor press to use a non click torque wrench to seat the boolit so I could get a reading.

I'm going to look into the hornady dies, I do not already have carbide 44 magnum so wouldnt be duplicating (I assume you mean the TIN Hornady dies ? )

Bill

P.S I like this site too and the guys here.

[44man]

Hey, that just might work! Let us know what happens. I will have to see if I still have the parts for my setup and put it back together for a picture. I quit using it when I quit IHMSA. If I don't have it, I will draw a picture.

[Rrusse11]

Bill,

I have some time here so I will see if I stir up a hornets nest.

I believe that everything you do, or fail to do, can and does have an effect on everything else. There are enormous differences in shooting reloading styles. Soem of these realte to the type of gun we are using. As long as you can look at your target and understand how one variable effects another and vary your .... technique, top accuracy is very obtainable and reproducable.

The biggest end of the problem usually lies with us, as reloaders, being flexible enough to recognise and adapt. We settle into a pattern. And it just has to be, not just a certain way, but our way. We often don't like to consider change in order to make different designs work. Human nature I guess. As a result we use a change in bullet design to possibly correct for something we aren't doing, then we find accuracy. Then that is the design we like and as a result, becomes our favorite design until we depart this world.

Take someone who believes the semi wadcutter is the greatest thing since sliced bread. These people tend to size at throat diameter (which usually means below) As a result, they tend to find accuracy at two points (the extremes). Fast powders / low velocity or full charges of slow powder produce the best accuracy. Why? This is because they need to get pressure up to obturate an undersized bullet quickly to seal for proper ignition. Ignition is everything. Here crimp is important. This reloading style works great in handguns where alignment is close to ideal. Taylor throating would have little effect in this case for improving accuracy.

Take the guy that likes (finds success) the olgival designs. They are a stronger bullet design and aid to correct some alignment issues if they exist. Here you have the flexibility to size at throat .... or larger. If you do this, then ignition is aided by the throat sizing and many powders in several velocity ranges works well. Crimp is less important. Taylor throating "can" work wonders, especially if it is transitioning a .433 bullet down to a .429 bore. Here metal hardness or a change in bullet design can make huge differences to accuracy because it makes a huge differences to ignition and pressure.

If your reloading style or desire is to shoot cheap, then you want fast powders. You probably like semis. If you want full power, you probably favor the olgival because it can aid ignition with slower powders better. If you shoot Smiths, the semies tend to be your game. If you shoot stronger handgun designs that may have some alignment issues and pressure is not a concern to handgun durability, then you learn how to take advantage of olgival designs. I personally shoot + .001 over throat. I know some guys that shoot what the cylinder will chamber. I know guys that get 4" groups at 200 yards by shooting .439 (no typo) bullets in .433 throats. One tore up a Mod 29 Smith like this in less than 2000 rounds. But now uses a Super Redhawk with over 40,000 rounds of shooting this way with no problems.

The whole problem lies with us learning how to control all the variables to maximize the advantages of each bullet style and firearm for the purpose desired. Then analizing results from our target, and take steps to improve accuracy if we were wrong with our initial guess. Then we must realize that we can't simply pass on our loads to others without passing on the entire technique package.

Bass,
Hear! Hear! With so many variables,,,,,the individual's input is a critical part of the equation. Where in PA? Lancaster here.
Cheers,
R*2

[Rrusse11]

44man!
Great stuff,,,,,, and much appreciated your willingness to share techniques that have taken years to evolve and refine.
I'm particularly intrigued by your evaluation/comparison of the BFR's and the Freedom Arms. In one of the locals here there is a FA in 454Casull, Field Grade, SS, 7.5", that is one of the finest examples of pistolsmithing I've ever stroked the hammer on. TIGHT! Precision! Beautifull feel, fit and finish. With a dot scope, askin' a grand. Good price I believe. The BFR's also occassionally surface, heavier larger frame, longer cylinder,,,, and running around the $800 mark. The Casull is what I'd be after,,, it looks like in terms of the 'handcannon' the BFR would be preferred, but the FA something you could actually carry. Thoughts?
Cheers,
R*2

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,
Hear! Hear! With so many variables,,,,,the individual's input is a critical part of the equation. Where in PA? Lancaster here.
Cheers,
R*2


R*2,

Southwest. Washington, PA.

[Rrusse11]

R*2,

Southwest. Washington, PA.

Bass,
Lemme know if you get anywhere near Amish country, I'll buy ya' lunch.
Cheers,
R*2

[44man]

Rruss11, I want a Freedom also, no finer gun made even if they could make improvements to allow all types of boolits to chamber without tying up the gun. A slightly heavier barrel on the hard kickers would also be nice. They do offer a 10" barrel and BFR is a special order in that length. Each company has it's quirks.

[joeb33050]

I found through many tests that the tight fitting bullets would shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's from a model 29, shooting creedmore from the side of my leg. Taking the looser fitting bullets would also give me a 1/2" group at 50 yd's.

All of my Rugers would average around 1" at 50 yd's except a couple that would shoot 1-1/2". My SRH would sometimes get 1/2". I don't get them as small since I quit measuring tension. I quit silhouette.


A series of five 5-shot groups will have the largest group of the five twice the size of the smallest of the five. On average.
I have never shot a 1/2" 50 yard revolver group, and can't find anybody else who has. When you say: "would shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's" , does that mean on average, or every now and then, or what?
When you say: "my Rugers would average around 1" at 50 yd's", what does that mean? If you go to the range, shoot some sighters, then shoot five groups-can you average 1"? I've shot a few, very few, 1" 50 yard 5-shot groups, but could never AVERAGE that, and haven't found anybody who says that they could.

A 1/2" 50 yard group is a 1 MOA group. With cast bullets, averaging 1/2 MOA from a rifle at 100 yards in still conditions is a difficult thing to do.
In 2002, at the CBA nationals, with classes including rail guns, the average 5-shot 100 yard group was 1.117". In 2004 the average was .874".

If you can shoot that well, the world needs to know, and know about neck tension.
joe b.

[45 2.1]

Joe-
44man hasn't said much about his technique or the specs on bullet hardness size or lube that he is using. Thats what you want to know, not his load or how much neck tension, which would be very hard to measure. What he uses works fine for big bore revolvers, but has alot of limitations if you want to use a smallbore to hunt with.

[Willbird]

Hey 44man, I ordered a set of those dies and we will see what happens.


Bill

[shooter2]

Shooting one inch groups with a revolver, even a FA or BFR is something to be dreamed of in my experience. Hell, I struggle to get one inch from my cast bullet rifles.
I agree that the grip is critical. My contenders will hold one inch (jacketed) with some barrels, from a rest. But resetting the grip exactly the same every time is a must if you want that magic inch.
I guess none of us would turn down a nice FA revolver given the chance. But my budget is more atuned to Rugers or a Smith 29. So, working with that restriction, where do you start? I want to know it all. What mods do you make to the gun if any? What is the load? Do you wear gloves? Are the groups you mention from a rest or from the creedmore position on the range? Neck tension? Etc...
Inquiring minds want to know.

[Willbird]

I myself have a Ruger RedHawk, I'm going to go after fire lapping the barrel, and as I only have iron sights I realise 1" groups at 100 yards arent going to happen, but 6" and consistant point of impact would sure be quite useable.

Bill

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
BASS & .44 MAN really enjoyed reading your comments. full of good stuff !

[44man]

Sorry I have not been back. I did something to my computer and had to reload EVERYTHING! Then the dummy down the road drilled postholes and cut the phone cable.
When I say my groups average 1", that is at 50 yd's. I get some over and some under depending on how I am shooting. I shoot Wheel weight metal but for hunting, I harden it with tin and antimony. I can see no difference in the way each shoots. I use nothing but Felix lube in all my revolvers and lever guns. I rest the end of the barrel on a sandbag and put the butt on a bag. I also shoot Creedmore. The important thing when resting the butt on a bag is to make sure the tension on the bag is the same shot to shot. Make all adjustments for elevation with the front bag.
Since I got McAfee anti virus, I am having trouble posting pictures on some sites but I will try to put one here of a 75 yd. group shot with the BFR 45-70 while sighting in for hunting.

[44man]

Here are some groups shot with the .475 while working loads at 50 yd's.

[44man]

Now you can see that even working loads I get tight groups. All of these groups have different amounts of powder but any one of them is very good. When you consider the recoil of the .475, you can imagine how much easier it is to shoot the .44 mag. A real pussycat!
I do nothing to my guns except lighten the trigger pull. I grind, stone and polish the sear surfaces and bend the legs on the trigger spring or just lift one leg off the post. The rest of the guns are as they came from the factory. I don't polish the frames inside or any other parts. No lapping is done to the barrels. Remember I said to keep the mainspring strong!

[Willbird]

Wow, I got my dies, and I can sure see what you mean about differing amounts of neck tension, esp. between differant brands of brass, but even within the same brand there are large differances.

Bill