FFL transfers

[shotman]

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with

[Bob Krack]

Are you talking about a trigger lock key?

[The Double D]

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with


What Key?

Does this gun have some sort of key lock?

Where does it say he is not allowed to send without a key?

Does the customer have the Key?

[arcticbreeze]

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying a customer purchased a gun from a non local pawn shop and had it sent to you for the transfer? Is that something local there in WV? Here in Fl I have purchased and had transferred 2 guns that the locking key was missing. I thought a $7 trigger lock would suffice.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I don’t get it. Are you talking about a key for an internal lock like what some of the Ruger SA revolvers have in the grip? Or did the gun come with some sort of lock on it, and you have no way to remove it because the sender forgot the key? Or did the sender violate some law?

[shotman]

You guys have to be joking!! dont know what a lock is . all new pistols have a key lock and most rifles THE KEY HAS TO BE SOLD WITH THE GUN. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? If its not with gun a ffl cannot sell it if he does it his a$$
yes I CAN get it but thats not MY problem If I do the leg work then I WILL get the mark up.
the guy got a $500 gun for $350 good deal yes but I would charge $25 to do paper work ok but I am not going to fool with getting a set of keys and extra lock for the $25 so I will not do any more.

[Storydude]

Charging 25 dollars for keeping a piece of paper and making a phonecall seems kinda steep to me....

Local prices are 10 to 20 bucks.

Please show me in the ATF regs where an FFL holder needs the "key" to be sent with the firearm. Maybe WV makes an exception above the ATF regs, but I cannot find it in the ATF big blue book....

You are transferring the firearm, not selling it. No sale should be involved. you are providing a service, I.E Labor.

[Storydude]

On that note, how would you handle a stripped frame? ATF says stripped SN'ed receiver or frame IS the firearm. Adding more parts to it doesn't make it more of a firearm.

[rockrat]

$25 isn't too bad. I pay $20 but I know the FFL, everybody else pays $30. Some places charge 10%, so shotman isn't out of line

[waksupi]

Must be local, definitely not Federal.

[iron mule]

will try and clearify this , i think, what shotman is trying to say is that the atf requires all handguns to be equipped with a trigger loack when transferred and one was not sent with the gun// so for him to legally do the transfer he has to buy and provide a triggerlock with the gun at the time of transfer
mule

[Storydude]

Or the transferee must provide one at time of transfer.

[MT Gianni]

Could he not require the buyer to bring one or buy one?

[AZ-Stew]

Tell the buyer you'll hold the gun for him until he contacts the manufacturer and gets a key. I'll bet they'll send one for free within 3-4 days. When he shows up with a key and proves it fits the gun, make the transfer. Can't be that hard.

Regards,

Stew

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Wait, so for future reference if I ship a gun am I supposed to have a lock on it plus the key for the lock included in the box? Or does this only apply to new firearms? Or does this have to do with local laws in the area?

[peter nap]

I'm not sure I understand what the post is about.

Are you bragging, complaining or just had too much coffee?

[mike in co]

you sure you are not in kalifornia ?

there is no NATIONAL LAW REQUIRING KEYS/NOR LOCKS be sold or transfered with a gun PERIOD.

so when you calm down and quit ranting, explain to me why you cannot sell a gun that is locked or unlocked ?

what does either have to do with FEDERAL requirement on completing a gun sale ?


mike in co

[eljefe]

I'm a dealer, too, and I don't know of any federal law that requires a lock and key.
I usually give the customer a lock that we get free from the state of Maryland if
the gun is used. New guns typically have a lock from the manufacturer.

By the way, I get $75 for transfers. I don't like doing them, and price accordingly.
Most of the other dealers in my area are in the same ballpark, price wise.


Before I would quit doing transfers, I would raise my price to where it is worth
my time.

[rwt101]

I suppose I can jump in with both feet. I usually get in trouble when I say something.

It seems like the problem is that the customer did not buy a gun from this person and he is mad about that. I don't see were it is a real problem. Like what was already mentioned, just have him buy a trigger lock.

I don't think you should keep the gun and say tough luck!!!

That is my .02 cents
Bob T

[snowwolfe]

Not sure why you are telling us this. $25 per transfer? Glad I live in Alaska, my dealer charges me a flat $10 and he will even try to find a new gun I am looking for from his wholesale suppliers.
Dealer told me he is happy to earn about $1 a minute for his time without having to keep anything in inventory.

[shotman]

well there is somethings that some do that is not the way it is to be done. Thats why there are about 10 a year get their license pulled.
As for the key and lock .
All ffls have filled out form 5300.42-- LOOK IT UP-- I can not transfer a gun if a lock is not provided. Do you understand so far? anyone that does violated the law.
You do not have to use it thats right. If I put a clip on or a cylinder cabell and do not give you the key what good is the gun?
A gun that has internal lock is no good without the key. Therefore it is not a transferable gun. Do you understand that?
Yes I can get the key but thats not for me to do. I can turn the FFL in for shipping the gun without a key but I wont.
After the email he got bet there wont be any more sent that way
Look up forms on the atf page and go down to gun storage safety devices print it
all ffls must have it and be posted

[peter nap]

well there is somethings that some do that is not the way it is to be done. Thats why there are about 10 a year get their license pulled.
As for the key and lock .
All ffls have filled out form 5300.42-- LOOK IT UP-- I can not transfer a gun if a lock is not provided. Do you understand so far? anyone that does violated the law.
You do not have to use it thats right. If I put a clip on or a cylinder cabell and do not give you the key what good is the gun?
A gun that has internal lock is no good without the key. Therefore it is not a transferable gun. Do you understand that?
Yes I can get the key but thats not for me to do. I can turn the FFL in for shipping the gun without a key but I wont.
After the email he got bet there wont be any more sent that way
Look up forms on the atf page and go down to gun storage safety devices print it
all ffls must have it and be posted

So you're using some transfer rule no one ever heard of, to steal the guys gun he already paid for? Is that what you're saying?

[arcticbreeze]

This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with


So you're using some transfer rule no one ever heard of, to steal the guys gun he already paid for? Is that what you're saying?

That is how I am reading it also. In fact I remember a previous post where it sounded like you were considering shooting a customers gun. Maybe not but that is what it sounds like. If that is the case then maybe you shouldn't do transfers anymore.


I got this box in the mail. It has a Barrett 99 50cal in it . Should I shoot it to see if it works or just pass it on? At $4 a round I dont think I will hurt it. What do you all think?

[peter nap]

That is how I am reading it also. In fact I remember a previous post where it sounded like you were considering shooting a customers gun. Maybe not but that is what it sounds like. If that is the case then maybe you shouldn't do transfers anymore.


I grew up on the Va/WV border. West Virginians must have changed some over the years. They used to be honorable people.

[Lunk]

So you're using some transfer rule no one ever heard of, to steal the guys gun he already paid for? Is that what you're saying?

That's the way I read it.

[shotman]

I think I will keep my FFL intact . It will get to the guy but will be in compliance when it does. I have several keys for my own guns and will put a set in with the gun. The guy that sold it is a pawn shop and I guess he dont know the law.
Bet there will be memo out soon.
Just so you know it was started in 2005 . the ffls received a package it had a poster about youth safety the other stuff was incluided
About the keeping the gun I am not the one that sold it. If I dont want to furnish key then I cant transfer and cant ship back . You all better watch out MR o is moveing slow but he IS moving H.R.45 passes and its all over

[eljefe]

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f530042.pdf


It says that locks will be available...it does not say that the gun must have a lock
on it to be transferred. As I stated in my above post, we offer a free lock to all
customers who want them. They are cheapie project childsafe locks from the
state.

[grages]

Well, I read the form and I think that it only means that the FFL must have gun storage. But it is in typical bureaucrat lingo. Read it for yourselves.



http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f530042.pdf

[peter nap]

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f530042.pdf


It says that locks will be available...it does not say that the gun must have a lock
on it to be transferred. As I stated in my above post, we offer a free lock to all
customers who want them. They are cheapie project childsafe locks from the
state.

I already researched the law elffe and you're exactly right. It also doesn't say anything about requiring the KEY on a used gun either. Any safety lock offered would suffice.

There's an old saying I'm sure Shotman's heard. "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining".
Gun people have to stick together and shysters don't help our cause any.

Like I said, West Virginians must have changed some over the years.

[223tenx]

Don't blame it on West Virginians. All licensees were sent that rule--even C&R holders. It seems that Shotman is using a very literal interpretation of the ruling. The last few guns I bought from dealers, I wasn't even offered a lock, because nobody ever takes one. BUT they're there if anyone wants one. I'd say Caveat Emptor-- let the buyer get his own key. The lock was provided.

[The Double D]

well there is somethings that some do that is not the way it is to be done. Thats why there are about 10 a year get their license pulled.
As for the key and lock .
All ffls have filled out form 5300.42-- LOOK IT UP-- I can not transfer a gun if a lock is not provided. Do you understand so far? anyone that does violated the law.
You do not have to use it thats right. If I put a clip on or a cylinder cabell and do not give you the key what good is the gun?
A gun that has internal lock is no good without the key. Therefore it is not a transferable gun. Do you understand that?
Yes I can get the key but thats not for me to do. I can turn the FFL in for shipping the gun without a key but I wont.
After the email he got bet there wont be any more sent that way
Look up forms on the atf page and go down to gun storage safety devices print it
all ffls must have it and be posted

You are absoulutley correct to say you can not sell a gun unless a locking device is avaialble

ATF 5300.42 is the certification that you the FFL dealer fills out stating YOU will make secure looking device available in your shop.

The responsibility to have locking device available is on YOU, not the buyer!

You do sell locking devices and secure storage devices in your store, don't you?

If you don't YOU are in violation!!! Turn your self in!

[mike in co]

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with


how do you know he was not offered a lock and said NO!

one should quit making assumptions and trying to inturpet a rule as a law.

that is your personal inturpetation of a rule, and NO OTHER DEALER I KNOW APPLIES THE RULE THAT WAY.

SORRY, you need to open your eyes, and read.
you are wrong this time on this subject.

mike in co

[S.R.Custom]

...there is no NATIONAL LAW REQUIRING KEYS/NOR LOCKS be sold or transfered with a gun PERIOD.


Ignorance like yours really irritates me. Read this:

http://tinyurl.com/ykbz5wl

The full text of the law is here. Scroll down to Section 5:

http://tinyurl.com/ygeso4l



That said, I get transfer shipments in here all the time with no locks with the gun. While I'm required to provide locks to my customers, the law specifically exempts commerce between FFLs; it's purely a retail requirement. That's why I keep a box of these around... They're dirt cheap. Something like 12¢ each when bought by the gross.

http://albertaairsoft.com/store/img/p/88-124-large.jpg



And I charge $20.00 per transfer. Pricey for an entry in my log and a phone call, yes, but that's not all that's going on. I provide a federally approved and licensed premises for the transaction (that license isn't free), insurance on those premises, advice and legal guidance through the order/purchase/delivery process, and pointers and points of contact for transfer delays/denials. And I provide free handgun locks (see above) etc... whatever it takes to make the sale happen. Considering my involvement in the process and my legal and financial responsibilities, that's a bargain.

And having said that, if anyone still thinks that $20.00 is highway robbery--- Don't gripe at me about it. It's not my idea to require all this stuff. If it ticks you off, spare me the drama and focus your energies where it will do more good. Call your legislators.

[mike in co]

Ignorance like yours really irritates me. Read this:

http://tinyurl.com/ykbz5wl

The full text of the law is here. Scroll down to Section 5:

http://tinyurl.com/ygeso4l



That said, I get transfer shipments in here all the time with no locks with the gun. While I'm required to provide locks to my customers, the law specifically exempts commerce between FFLs; it's purely a retail requirement. That's why I keep a box of these around... They're dirt cheap. Something like 12¢ each when bought by the gross.

http://albertaairsoft.com/store/img/p/88-124-large.jpg



And I charge $20.00 per transfer. Pricey for an entry in my log and a phone call, yes, but that's not all that's going on. I provide a federally approved and licensed premises for the transaction (that license isn't free), insurance on those premises, advice and legal guidance through the order/purchase/delivery process, and pointers and points of contact for transfer delays/denials. And I provide free handgun locks (see above) etc... whatever it takes to make the sale happen. Considering my involvement in the process and my legal and financial responsibilities, that's a bargain.

And having said that, if anyone still thinks that $20.00 is highway robbery--- Don't gripe at me about it. It's not my idea to require all this stuff. If it ticks you off, spare me the drama and focus your energies where it will do more good. Call your legislators.

from the stated law:
unless the transferee C.” The statute provides that it becomes effective on April 24, 2006. ATF has
prepared the regulation that will implement this statute. At this time, the regulation is pending
approval by the Department of Justice and the Office of Management and Budget. The review
process most likely will take several more months. Once the regulation is approved, ATF will
publish an Interim Rule in the Federal Register regarding the new law. While the Interim Rule
will not be published by April 24th, the requirement to “provide” a safety device with the transfer
of any handgun is mandated beginning on that date pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(z). Accordingly,
licensees must make the necessary arrangements to provide secure gun storage or safety devices
with the transfer of handguns from the April 24th effective date.
As enacted, the law does not require safety devices to be provided where the handgun transfer is
between FFLs. C

PLEASE NOTE: IT DOES NOT SAY LOCK, NOR KEY.
IT DOES SAY :
unless the transferee (buyer) is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for
that handgun.” The statute provides that it becomes effective on April 24, 2006. ATF has
prepared the regulation that will implement this statute. At this time, the regulation is pending
approval by the Department of Justice and the Office of Management and Budget.
AND
The law also provides for additional exceptions.

actual law/rule and implementation often differ. your personal implementation, or that of your local batfe agent do not necessarily match the IMPLEMNTED law/rule.

me thinks this is a opinion of a law/rule.

i have been wrong before.

mike in co

[mike in co]

i see new handguns with furnished locks..all the time.
for used guns...never...just me.
i do gunshows probably 25 plus weekends a year.

again...i could be wrong....

mike in co

[Zbench]

All,

This seems like much to do about nothing.

If you are someone that wants to get a firearm transfered visit:
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp

If you are a dealer and someone contacts you to transfer a firearm, and you don't want to do it, tell them to visit: http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp

A simple email to find out how much the FFL dealer wants to do the transfer is all you need to do. I did it and found at least 4 guys within a mile of my home. Seems like most charge $20.

Too easy and not worth arguing about.

Pete

[peter nap]

All,

This seems like much to do about nothing.

If you are someone that wants to get a firearm transfered visit:
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp

If you are a dealer and someone contacts you to transfer a firearm, and you don't want to do it, tell them to visit: http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp

A simple email to find out how much the FFL dealer wants to do the transfer is all you need to do. I did it and found at least 4 guys within a mile of my home. Seems like most charge $20.

Too easy and not worth arguing about.

Pete

Zbench, that 's right and it is correct that all manufacturers are providing locks of some sort with their new guns.

That's not what I'm irritated about.
I'm a lobbyist in Va. and every year we have to fight the General Assembly. I also have to put up with both stupidity and shady dealings from gun owners and unfortunately, dealers. The percentage is small but they are the ones that make the headlines. This year among other things, I have to deal with a poorly worded bill from students for Concealed Carry and I suspect a bill will be introduced concerning an idiot who was poaching Deer on one of the campus farms, and shot two students who looked like Deer to him

Then I get on this site, which has some of the most level headed people around and see this.

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key

[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with


Now I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by explaining what he meant by that and I really don't want to be associated as a pro gun advocate, with people who are no better than a common theif.

Look in the Straight shooters & Deadbeat's section and you find plenty of people who have pulled that kind of deal.

[Sprue]

Zbench, that 's right and it is correct that all manufacturers are providing locks of some sort with their new guns.

That's not what I'm irritated about.
I'm a lobbyist in Va. and every year we have to fight the General Assembly. I also have to put up with both stupidity and shady dealings from gun owners and unfortunately, dealers. The percentage is small but they are the ones that make the headlines. This year among other things, I have to deal with a poorly worded bill from students for Concealed Carry and I suspect a bill will be introduced concerning an idiot who was poaching Deer on one of the campus farms, and shot two students who looked like Deer to him

Then I get on this site, which has some of the most level headed people around and see this.

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key

[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with


Now I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by explaining what he meant by that and I really don't want to be associated as a pro gun advocate, with people who are no better than a common theif.

Look in the Straight shooters & Deadbeat's section and you find plenty of people who have pulled that kind of deal.

Me thinks that you otta have your self worth re-appraised......

[roarindan]

I bought a new mossberg rifle from a Large sporting goods dealer this Oct. and "HAD" to sign a paper in triplicate that I DID recieve a locking device. when the extractor broke a wk later and I sent it back they didnt ask for the lock or put one on. when it came back from the factory it didnt have one on.

[mike in co]

I bought a new mossberg rifle from a Large sporting goods dealer this Oct. and "HAD" to sign a paper in triplicate that I DID recieve a locking device. when the extractor broke a wk later and I sent it back they didnt ask for the lock or put one on. when it came back from the factory it didnt have one on.

its not a handgun, the fed law does not apply.

where do you live ???


mike in co

[shotman]

oh well lot of A s here and many showed up all in one post rick

[vincewarde]

The two local dealers who do transfers for internet sales charge $60.00 and $100.00. The requirement for an "approved storage/safety device" (for all guns) is only one of many requirements. One guy's primary business is nothing but internet transfers. Not to mention that for handgun sales except face to face private sales the gun must be C&R or on the states approved list. The only cheap private transfers are face to face at the dealer - the state requires dealers to do these and regulates the price at a mere $35.00. ALL transfers must go through a license holder with very few exceptions.

Transfers between parents/grandparents and their kids can be handled be filling out a form and sending in $15.00 per gun.

Thankfully is one has a C&R AND the gun is a long gun AND it's over 50 years old AND it's on the ATF C&R list you can still have it sent directly your home. My C&R paid for itself x2 on my first transaction!

[Nazgul]

So I'll be another "A" and ask a question. If the lock is locked, the gun is legally "secure". Then what does a key have to do with it?. Opening the lock is the buyers problem, the handgun is secure legally for transfer.

Don

[mike in co]

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with


and i'll join in....where is the LAW that says a KEY must be shipped with a gun.....i looked at the prior listings, and could not find a reference to"do not deliver the gun" without a key...

ever consider the seller provided the KEY to the BUYER ??


SHOTMAN, i got nothing against you, but this rant of yours needed more details and consideration PRIOR to any posting.
just my opinion...every ones got one...


mike in co

[Baron von Trollwhack]

It didn't take me three pages to spot the problem. The moderater ought to erase this thread .

BvT