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Bodydoc447
05-10-2006, 12:38 PM
I finally got around to ordering the Lee .22 Bator mold from MidSouth and the .225 Lee sizing kit. I bought a thousand of the Gator checks in the group buy. Now I am ready to start asking stoooooopid questions.

My goals are:

1. Produce a load that is not going to lead my barrel too badly.

2. Produce a load that will allow my oldest boy to shoot the Ruger 77/22 Hornet as much as he wants without breaking the bank.

3. Produce a load that is a least minute of squirrel out to 50-75 yards.

I was going to start out experimenting with various powders I have on hand, WC820, Lil Gun, 2400, etc that have done okay with the jacketed bullets, using the Lee liquid guppy poop and the .225 sizing die.

I am guessing that I will have to drive the Bator boolits fairly hard as they are on the heavy side for this cartridge (about 55 grains is advertised).

There are many who seem to have good results with various Lyman boolits. Has anyone used the Bator in the Hornet? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Doc

carpetman
05-10-2006, 11:26 PM
Bodydoc 447--- I dont have any experience with Hornets. I would think a 55 grainer would be too heavy. Apparently Lyman agrees with it being too heavy as they list no data for that weight. I do have experience with the 58 grain RCBS in .222,22-250 and .223's. In both the .222 and 22-250 seems finding a load they wont handle is harder than one they will. They also seem do do as well without a gas check as they do with it. The .223 is another story. It is very accurate with jacketed bullets,but no luck with any cast load. I use FWFBL and get no leading. For sure it will be cheap shooting, using Unique for example you'd get over 2,000 per pound. Let us know how it works--I'm guessing it'll be too heavy. Maybe someone with a lighter bullet could send you some samples?

Leftoverdj
05-10-2006, 11:50 PM
.22 WMR 50 grain bullets shoot very well in 1-16" barrels at about 1600 fps. I see no reason why 55 grain bullets would not shoot well in a Hornet with its higher velocity and faster twist.

Dale53
05-11-2006, 12:28 AM
I have used 3.0 grs of Unique with a 225415 bullet in the Hornet with good success for squirrel hunting. Lyman lists up to 4.6 grs (1800 fps) that should be good for turkey where rifles are allowed.

Dale53

Bodydoc447
05-11-2006, 10:01 AM
I'll be cautious and work my way up. Got lots of Unique. I'll report when I have enough data to make any cogent comments. Thanks for the responses.

Doc

Larry Gibson
05-11-2006, 10:57 AM
.22 WMR 50 grain bullets shoot very well in 1-16" barrels at about 1600 fps. I see no reason why 55 grain bullets would not shoot well in a Hornet with its higher velocity and faster twist.

There in lies the rub....not sure what the twist of the 77/22 is but my #3 (and most older Hornets) are 1-16" twists. I've not got any good accuracy beyond 50 yards with any bullet, cast or jacketed with any Hornet with a 1-16" twist. On the other hand my TC Conteneder 21" barrel has a 1-12" twist and shoots Lyman's 225415 over 4.5 Unique quite well. It runs 1925 fps and shoots sub 2" at 100 yards with 7 or 8 out of 10 shots into 1 1/4". It is a squirrel killing load.

Larry Gibson

Bodydoc447
05-11-2006, 11:58 AM
Current spec for the 77/22 is for a 1:14 RH twist. I experiment a bit and see where that leads me. If I have a 50 yard squirrel gun or a 50 yard plinker for my boy and I to share I won't be terribly disappointed in either case. Thanks for the idea of trying the bullet w/o GC after I get a reasonable load. Might make it even more economical. I am going to need it. I put a Stoeger .410 coach gun youth model on lay away for him. He likes wood bumming like his old man. I'll carry the rifle and he can carry his shotgun. Danged shotshells for the .410 are gonna get expensive.

Thanks gentlemen,

Doc

carpetman
05-11-2006, 12:03 PM
one of my son in laws was visiting recently and got his first turkey. He used my Savage combo gun 20 guage and .222 ---he used the .222 and it was with jacketed bullet. I have no doubt that a cast would worked just as well.

Bullshop
05-11-2006, 01:00 PM
Lary
The first Ruger 77/22 hornets, the one with the tang safty was 1/16". The current three position safty is a 1/14" All stainless lams are 1/14"
The early rifles were very limited as to boolit/bullet length and earned a rep for poor accuracy.
Having had about half a dosen now Rugers. I have found they are far from hopeless as some say. There can be issues with barrel chamber alignment and bedding. These can be corrected most often. The Ruger because of its angled bedding and two peace bottom has to be bedded in steps. If you have a bad chamber just have to set back and start over.
If I were to rate from experiance the ones I have had I would say,
2 - thrilled with
3 - satisfied with
1 - bummed with
The bummed rifle was an early tang safty, but even so it did have one good load (of many many tried). It would shoot good with the the NEI #2 45gn FNGC @ + or - BHN-15 .226" Fed # 100 SP and 8.5gn - 4227( eather brand) Without looking I think that put the little 45gn boolit right at 2000 fps.
I will confess to being a hornet nut and am always looking for that perfect rifle/load. Since I have acquired a Cooper rifle in 22 CCM my hornets have had to give equal time to the smaller case. I must say that a more usefull fun cast boolit cartridge IMHO has not been invented.
The CCM is not near the hornet in speed but fills a very usfull velocity nitch with 45gn/2000 and 55gn/1800 and can do it with nearly 2000 shots per lb powder.
We have lots of good hornet loads logged but one that has worked well in all is a 100% dencity load of 4759 with boolits of 45 to 55gn. Re #7 is also a good place to look.

As long as I am rambling I want to mention that I had Buckshot shorten a Lymen mold for me. It was a 60gn RNGC that he shortened the blocks by removing the gas check part. This mold was good for hi velocity loads in the bigger cases but was too long for the smaller cases even with a 1/14" twist. It is now a 50gn PB RN cast in straight WW. It can be used as a RN for GP shooting or bumped to have a small meplat for hunting. In the short time since its change it has equaled my best loads for accuracy with gas check boolits in the 22 CCM. This on the heels of the test done over the winter with chesk/no check boolits is encoraging. So far this is the only 22 mold I have that is for a PB.
Getting a bit worried I may not be in the world long enough to see the culmination of efforts from the Felix/Sundog tests ( forgive me) I have ventured fourth with the purchase of a new mold from Australlia. Just as all others started out I think this is gonna be the one!
BIC/BS

Larry Gibson
05-12-2006, 11:06 AM
Bullshop

Thanks for the info, I thought Ruger had changed to a faster twist but couldn't remeber what it was. The only ones I measured were the early ones. I have shot a couple newer ones but it was with jacketed 40/45 gr bullets.

Can you post a picture of the 22 CCM?

Larry Gibson

drinks
05-12-2006, 08:28 PM
Doc;
Get a couple of boxes of brass .410 shells from Midway, can be reloaded for about .12c - .15c each, much better than the local hardware's $8.50 a box, same place, 12ga, 1 1/8oz loads are 4.29.
Oh well!

Slowpoke
05-12-2006, 09:59 PM
Doc;
Get a couple of boxes of brass .410 shells from Midway, can be reloaded for about .12c - .15c each, much better than the local hardware's $8.50 a box, same place, 12ga, 1 1/8oz loads are 4.29.
Oh well!


Or maybe this style would work for you.
http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

Buckshot
05-13-2006, 12:33 AM
...............Buddy of mine who recently moved to Prescott, AZ has a Winchester M54 in 22 Hornet that was a shooting esobee with either cast or jacketed. Best cast slug for him was the Lyman RN at about 46gr I think it was.

I can't quote loads as I don't recall them, but the rifle was eager to please and cast velocities over 2300 fps were almost the equivelent in accuracy at 100 yards as his jacketed ones. Lets just say they all hovered around 1" for 5 rounds. Yes it was scoped with a Leo VXIII 3-9.

As an aside, for suburban varmint shooting in his back yard it did double duty shooting 22 cal air rifle pellets and pulled 22 cal slugs from a brick of Russian steel cased 22RF ammo. I sure don't know what it's twist was.

................Buckshot

Bret4207
05-13-2006, 07:50 AM
Or maybe this style would work for you.
http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

Neat site. I was wondering where all my Y2K buddies ended up. I felt right at home!

Bass Ackward
05-13-2006, 08:57 AM
My goals are:

1. Produce a load that is not going to lead my barrel too badly.

2. Produce a load that will allow my oldest boy to shoot the Ruger 77/22 Hornet as much as he wants without breaking the bank.

3. Produce a load that is a least minute of squirrel out to 50-75 yards.

I am guessing that I will have to drive the Bator boolits fairly hard as they are on the heavy side for this cartridge (about 55 grains is advertised).

Doc


Doc,

1. Easy 2. Easy 3. Hmmmm .....

The 22 Hornet is my .... one true black eye with cast. I think I have figured it out now, and am tempted .... "hair of the dog".

You need to slug your throat. Not really for length, but for diameter and see what you are working with. I have had several over the years. Not one would do MOA or better with cast on anything resembling consistency. I even made a K-Hornet that would shoot jackets fairly well, but sucked with cast. That is until it was chambered out to a 218 Mashburn. Then it shot jackets AND cast measured in tenths. Damnedest transformation you ever want to see. Same barrel except that it was a varmit weight as a Hornet and was cut down to buggy whip dimensions when my dad made his Mashburn. My point is that for all intents and purposes, the barrel should have been worse and yet it was actually DRAMATICALLY better.

There are two problems that I see that don't relate to stabilization from twist rate. First is the throat. Because the 22 Hornet has blown more guns than any other factory caliber, the throats were enlarged to add space and cut pressure. Worked with jackets, but make using cast tough. Same problem exists with the 223 as some manufacturers cut throats way large in case someone chambers a high pressure military round.

The second is case ratio to bore size. Because this is so small of a case capacity any slight increase in temperature changed pressure enough to change load. And that is severely affected by bullet weight. A 22 Hornet with a 55 grain will be much more sensitive to temperature change than a Hornet with a 35 grain pill. So even though twist rate is adequate, a more .... consistent accuracy with multiple load choices might develop ( I never proved it) from a lighter weight slug. Essentially, you might be able to move up in .3 grain increments with a 35 grain while you need .1 grain for the 55 with the same powder just because of case capacity. And I would use my slowest powder option to start as it will be the least sensitive to change.

felix
05-13-2006, 09:17 AM
BA, you really hit it on the head. These cases, 25-20 included, are just too small and/or just too large for the powders and "primers" we have available. Along the same lines, it has taken quite a few years to develop an appropriate powder speed and primer for the 22LR. It would have never been done without the positive sales potential of the round. ... felix

woody1
05-13-2006, 11:06 AM
Current spec for the 77/22 is for a 1:14 RH twist. I experiment a bit and see where that leads me. If I have a 50 yard squirrel gun or a 50 yard plinker for my boy and I to share I won't be terribly disappointed in either case. Thanks for the idea of trying the bullet w/o GC after I get a reasonable load. Might make it even more economical. I am going to need it. I put a Stoeger .410 coach gun youth model on lay away for him. He likes wood bumming like his old man. I'll carry the rifle and he can carry his shotgun. Danged shotshells for the .410 are gonna get expensive.

Thanks gentlemen,

Doc
Doc, I won't advise you on your 22 Hornet quest because I haven't hit the Holy Grail there in any of mine. However, I do reload 410's using various stuff available in my shop. If you're gonna shoot a ton of 'em, just get yourself a MEC and be done with it. (I don't have one) I tried blowing out the 303 Brit. and didn't like the results. OTOH the 444 Marlin brass works dandy in my 410s and has worked in others who have tried it. Before you spring for any expensive brass, you should at least try it. Easy for the kid to reload too. Rather than hijack this thread, email or pm me and I'll send you a couple 444's to try. We can also discuss how I reload the plastics if you'd like. Regards, Woody

Greg
05-13-2006, 08:51 PM
I put a Stoeger .410 coach gun youth model on lay away for him. He likes wood bumming like his old man. I'll carry the rifle and he can carry his shotgun. Danged shotshells for the .410 are gonna get expensive.

Thanks gentlemen,

Doc


Doc

my 410...well, it was my Grandpa’s first ( marked 12mm ) has a 2½" chamber, so I used .444 marlin brass cases. The 303 cases didn’t work so good!

.410 Brass case Load

* see Lyman 42nd Handbook and Hodgdon’s 25th pg 442.

R-P .444 cases

R-P Large Pistol primer

14.5 grains H110

⅛" card wad; ¼" filler wad

⅝ oz shot; and a card over-shot wad glued in. I couldn’t find any ‘water glass’!!

Taper crimp with a 45 ACP die.


I had picked up some Alcan ‘.45 pistol’-‘Special Wads for brass cases’ at a Gun Show. tried the 303 brass, I wasn’t thrilled with the results. I bought .444 Marlin brass, it works even though it’s a 2 + 7/32" length.

http://www.circlefly.com/ lists wads for brass cases. Hornady brought out their 405 cases ( 2½") and then the metric 9.3x74 R if you want a 3" case.

A Lyman 45 ACP die does the case sizing; I took a extra decaping stem adapter and made a wad seating stem using a long pan head machine screw and jam nut. The Lyman die is bored straight thru then threaded 9/16th’s for the adapter...RCBS is threaded a lot smaller and won’t full length size a 2½"case.

I use store bought boolits in my .410...the package is labeled ‘ Lawrence Brand chilled 8's’

Greg
05-13-2006, 09:17 PM
Now I am ready to start asking (deleted) questions.

My goals are:

1. Produce a load that is not going to lead my barrel too badly.

2. Produce a load that will allow my oldest boy to shoot the Ruger 77/22 Hornet as much as he wants without breaking the bank.

3. Produce a load that is a least minute of squirrel out to 50-75 yards.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Doc

Doc

I also shoot a Brno 527 in 22 k-Hornet...

The loads that I’ve worked up so far have been along the lines more for a walk around varminter. Way much for squirrels to eat.

R-P fire formed brass

Winchester Small Pistol primer

Lyman 225415 ( 50 grains) cast of wheel weights, heat treated to BHN 12 - Apache Blue lube

12.2 grains Accurate 2015 BR powder

1.794 OAL ~ which lightly seats into the lands

2150 fps

* * * * *

R-P fire formed brass

Winchester Small Pistol primer

NEI 22-54 GC ( 60 grains) cast of wheel weights, heat treated to BHN 12 - Apache Blue lube

12.2 grains Accurate 2015 BR powder

1.870 OAL ~ which lightly seats into the lands

2120 fps

* * * * *

R-P fire formed brass

Winchester Small Pistol primer

Lyman 225415 ( 50 grains) cast of wheel weights, heat treated to BHN 12 - Apache Blue lube

10.7 grains Reloader 7 powder

1.794 OAL ~ which lightly seats into the lands

1700 estimated fps

Bodydoc447
05-22-2006, 09:47 AM
Yesterday, as I was using my new .22 Bator mould for the first time. Water quenching the little tiny boolits as they dropped two at a time from the mould, my oldest boy came out to see what I was up to. He asked what I was doing. I told him, "Making some bullets for the Hornet so you can shoot it some more." His response after looking into the bottom of the 5 gallon pail was "You're going to have to make a lot more than that." It is hard to mould bullets when your whole body is shaking with laughter. He's right. Gonna hafta mould a few hundred more.

I also got a used 225415 and will have to make a couple hundred of them, too.

Thanks, gentlemen, for the help and encouragement on this project.

Doc

Ranch Dog
05-22-2006, 10:30 AM
Doc...

I've got an interest in this boolit for my 218 Bee (Marlin 1894CL) but also worry about the stability. In analyzing the performance, I believe that about 1100 FPS it will head South. The image below is from my RSI Shooting Lab software and to date it has been very reliable in predicting performance. The shaded area of the chart predicts unreliable performance. Assuming I'm shooting this at around 2200 FPS, it won't be stable at 200-yards. This is also what I'm seeing with the 45-grain Hornady Bee bullet as its OAL is .532". It's just too long to stabilize from the 1/16" twist in my Bee.

sundog
05-22-2006, 11:06 AM
Michael, that's interesting. What would it take to run that through again with a 14 twist for the Bator boolit? sundog

Bodydoc447
05-22-2006, 01:42 PM
Ranch Dog,

My Ruger 77/22 is one with the 1:14 twist. From my alloy the unchecked bullets ran 51.2 grains +/- .1 for the relatively small sample I weighed (about 15). I'm guessing that checking and lubing will add perhaps another 1.0-1.2 grains but don't know. I am about to go out of town for the Memorial Day weekend and won't have time for a couple of weeks to get back to it as I am interviewing for a new job. I am going to work with some of the suggestions made by others in this thread and see what I can get it to do with the Bator bullet and then repeat with the Lyman 225415 I just got. I'll gladly share my results when I can. I don't have anything on the order of your suphistication in testing. I just shoot and adjust up and down until I find a sweet spot. With as little spare time as I have, projects do take a while.

Doc

felix
05-22-2006, 07:06 PM
1.3 stability is required (guesstimation) at the terminal distance of 200 to keep things straight on with the Bator, assuming a 2100 minimum start. We are talking up through 12 mph cross winds, anyway. Anything more than that, it's time to bring out the heavier bores. Adjust meplat accordingly, and let us know. Do NOT change length. ... felix

Ranch Dog
05-22-2006, 09:31 PM
Michael, that's interesting. What would it take to run that through again with a 14 twist for the Bator boolit? sundog

Here you go Sundog...

I shows a period of instability as the boolit becomes subsonic (1100 FPS) and then it stabilizes again.