.44 Mags loaded - ramblings and questions

[ghh3rd]

I just loaded my first .44 Mags for my Ruger SBH. I've heard that some use a heavy crimp, while others a light crimp. Since a light crimp may let boolits work loose, and a heavy crimp may cause leading as the boolit is swaged to a smaller size, I tried to crimp somewhere in the middle.

I have to admit that crimping is the one step that I feel least comfortable with. I never really know whether I have the correct amount of crimp (lots of guessing). Are there any really good closeup examples of crimping, or some sort of guide to illustrate what a light crimp vs a heavy crimp, etc. looks like?

I was surprised at how much room 21.5 grains of 296 takes in the .44 Mag case -- just a little space left between the boolit and powder. I got used to the .38 and .40 using less than 4 gr, and leaving lots of empty space in the loaded round. Do any loads actually compress the powder?

The boolits that I loaded today are those that I used Alox on, since I was too impatient to wait for my beeswax to make Felix lube. I guess I should have waited since I wasn't able to make it to the range today after all, and probably won't be there until next weekend.

All I need to find now for the lube is the Lanolin.

Randy

[wallenba]

Usually the die manufacturer will give the best instructions. When shooting, load six rounds, then after firing one or two, dump the live rounds out and check if they are longer than the original seating depth. If so, you will have to increase the crimp or consider a different type of crimp die. I assume you are using a roll crimp. I personally am fond of the Redding profile crimps. Word of caution, over crimping can buckle the cases. Richard Lee touches on crimping in his book, chapter 4 of Modern Reloading. Lee crimp dies can be deceptive in that you think it's not enough and you keep cranking the die down til you mess it up.

[runfiverun]

mothers nipple cream in the baby/nursing area.
it depends on the angle of the crimp groove and how far out i can seat the boolit as far as how much crimp i use.
i like to use as little as i possibly can and try to let neck tension do it's thing.

[Alchemist]

ghh3rd,

Magnum pistol powders such as WW296 & H-110 need a firm crimp to get complete ignition and consistent pressures. Also, don't load less than published STARTING loads, which in some cases is also listed as the maximum.

Good luck with your 44 loads.

[ghh3rd]

mothers nipple cream in the baby/nursing area.

You sort of threw me for a loop with that one. I read it two or three times, trying to figure out how it related to my post :-) Obviously, it must be the Lanolin. But can it be used for Felix lube?

I like the idea of firing some and looking at the rest... that makes sense.


I assume you are using a roll crimp.
Is the roll crimp the one that is usually produced by the seating die? How does one create a taper crimp?

[44man]

From Nature With Love or Majestic mountain Sage, on the web. I think my last pound of pure lanolin cost me $8. Never paid over $12.
I use only enough crimp to hold the last boolit in. Load six, shoot 5. The last boolit should not have moved.
Case tension is more important.

[ghh3rd]

Case tension is more important.
Hope my questions don't sound too silly... but how do you control case tension?

[Edubya]

I'm going to suggest that you get the book "ABC of Reloading" and read it completely before you attempt to load a single mini pipe bomb.
EW
http://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloading-C-Rodney-James/dp/0873491904

[randyrat]

Randy your wax was shipped on Friday so it should be there Monday or Tuesday. You'll have to keep us informed on how your loads work out for you.

Look in a Pharmacy and ask for Lanolin Hydrous. I bought mine at Wallyworld for i think $16/lb. If you look around you'll find it for less.

It seconds as a severe hand lotions/ Poltis for infections/ diaper rash/ wind burn/Black powder lube ingredient and scare people away with the smell. I'm sure there are more uses. Possibly use as Wolf bait ingredient ( they do eat sheep right!) It is proccessed Wool fat.

Using this stuff on your hands may turn you into a "sheeple" be carefull. It is

[ghh3rd]

I'm going to suggest that you get the book "ABC of Reloading" and read it completely before you attempt to load a single mini pipe bomb.

Edubya, not sure why you are refering to pipe bombs. Please elaborate, you're making me nervous. By the way, I just put that book down to check the forum. Maybe it's just me, but although it's full of useful information, it doesn't answer some of the questions that I wonder about most.

Randy, thanks for the update on the wax. You mention asking for Lanolin Hydrous. I've heard of some folks using anhydrous and others using hydrous. Wonder if it matters which type?

Someone mentioned that (they thought) non pharmacutical grade lanolin has a small portion of salt in it. Wonder if that's true?

So many questions, so little time...

Thanks everyone!


Randy

[Flinchrock]

mothers nipple cream in the baby/nursing area.
it depends on the angle of the crimp groove and how far out i can seat the boolit as far as how much crimp i use.
i like to use as little as i possibly can and try to let neck tension do it's thing.

Cast .44 Mag=roll crimp,,,j-word=taper crimp,,,I doesn't matter what else you do, if the cases are not the same length you will not get a consistant crimp. Too much roll crimp will actually REDUCE neck tension,,,I like to see the outside of my case walls just fadeing into the crimp groove when I roll crimp, I seat and then crimp,,,seem to get best results that way, takes more time but what else do ya have?

[lwknight]

ghh3rd, I use the taper crimp on 44mag. I crimp in the crimp groove and the heavy crimp still only uses about 1/16" which will not affect the boolit is it is at least semi hard to expand the brass without sizing down when fired.

296 anf H110 like a load that fills 90 percent of the space and with a 240 grain or less boolit you can do well from 95 to 99 percent, which may get ticklish at this point.

I have had slight compression in the lighter boolits with no ill affects. My favorite load with a 240 grain boolit is 24.0 grains which in my situation is about 98-99 percent space fill. Its kinda hot and needs a hard boolit of about 15 or so bh

I have not worked with 300 grainers but would bet that the book loads are 90 percent fill. Case fill matters more that powder charge, meaning that your seating depth can matter greatly. The books don't tell you about capacity and have loads for certain bullets that you/we may or may not have so we have to use the noggin to be safe.

You must always be aware of seating depth and case capacity at that depth. Changing boolit design can change your seating due to the location of the crimp groove.

[Marlin Hunter]

Is the roll crimp the one that is usually produced by the seating die? How does one create a taper crimp?


Roll or taper is dependent on the crimp/seat die. I think most revolver dies have roll crimps and automatic cartridge dies are tapered. I don't think it matters in a revolver which crimp you have, but I recommend the Lee factory crimp die so you do not seat and crimp at the same time. The only bad thing about the Lee factory pistol crimp dies is that they size the case as part of the crimping cycle. If you have a larger boolit, then the factory crimp die may make it undersize when it resizes the case.

[Flinchrock]

Hope my questions don't sound too silly... but how do you control case tension?

By the size of the expander die compared to the size of your boolit.

[Flinchrock]

Roll or taper is dependent on the crimp/seat die. I think most revolver dies have roll crimps and automatic cartridge dies are tapered. I don't think it matters in a revolver which crimp you have, but I recommend the Lee factory crimp die so you do not seat and crimp at the same time. The only bad thing about the Lee factory pistol crimp dies is that they size the case as part of the crimping cycle. If you have a larger boolit, then the factory crimp die may make it undersize when it resizes the case.

Kinda hard to get a roll crimp and a taper crimp from the same die,,,ya need two different dies. The crimping shoulders are completely different!

[Marlin Hunter]

Hope my questions don't sound too silly... but how do you control case tension?

I don't think you can. I read either here or in the Lee reloading book that the brass tension on the boolit is the same regardless of the diameter of the boolit. If you press a larger diameter boolit into an undersize brass case, the case will expand and give you basically the same tension. The length of the booilt may give you more tension because of the greater surface area between the boolit and case.

[Flinchrock]

I don't think you can. I read either here or in the Lee reloading book that the brass tension on the boolit is the same regardless of the diameter of the boolit. If you press a larger diameter boolit into an undersize brass case, the case will expand and give you basically the same tension. The length of the booilt may give you more tension because of the greater surface area between the boolit and case.

Couple of different things involved here, new or once fired cases compared to many times fired cases,,,different brands of cases, and the more times a case is fired, the less "memory"it has. I think you are right, you can't really "control" case neck tension,,,but you can control your record keeping, sorting, and trim length!!!,,,which MIGHT help you acheive "consistency" which MAY help you acheive "accuracy",,,I dunno,,, works for some folks.

[fredj338]

ghh3rd, I use the taper crimp on 44mag. I crimp in the crimp groove and the heavy crimp still only uses about 1/16" which will not affect the boolit is it is at least semi hard to expand the brass without sizing down when fired.

296 anf H110 like a load that fills 90 percent of the space and with a 240 grain or less boolit you can do well from 95 to 99 percent, which may get ticklish at this point.

I have had slight compression in the lighter boolits with no ill affects. My favorite load with a 240 grain boolit is 24.0 grains which in my situation is about 98-99 percent space fill. Its kinda hot and needs a hard boolit of about 15 or so bh

I have not worked with 300 grainers but would bet that the book loads are 90 percent fill. Case fill matters more that powder charge, meaning that your seating depth can matter greatly. The books don't tell you about capacity and have loads for certain bullets that you/we may or may not have so we have to use the noggin to be safe.

You must always be aware of seating depth and case capacity at that depth. Changing boolit design can change your seating due to the location of the crimp groove.

It's pretty hard to taper crimp into a crimp groove. You are probably roll crimping. Unless you custom order a taper crimp, most revolver dies come w/ roll crimp built into the seating die.
Slightly compressed charges of very slow powder are not to get all worried about. When you load H110/W296 under a 300-310gr bullet, the powder will be slightly compressed.
I roll crimp into the crimp groove enough so that it is visible. Heavier bullets will want a heavier crimp, they want to move more under recoil. It's a bit of trial & error, but once done a few times, you get the feel for it.

[lwknight]

Fred, I got in the habit of taper crimping my 44s with SJHPs and never changed even with cast. I find the opposite. Since brass length varies a little (unless you trim every one all the time) and wall thickness varies. When I tried roll crimping ( which I like to do) I get some that just dont roll down right and actually swell when I aim for a heavy crimp.
I like the roll crimp on 38s especially because it does not need to be heavy and takes a step out of the process since the roll is built in to the seater die.

[44man]

My Hornady .475 dies came with a separate crimp die. It is marked as taper crimp but shows a roll crimp shoulder. It works fine with jacketed and shows a normal roll crimp.
I can't use it with my cast because the boolits do not go into it so I use the crimp from the seat die. My boolits run .477" to .478".
My friend brought his Freedom and my loads will not chamber so I tried a boolit in the throats. Need a sledge to get them in so I sized a boolit to .476" Still no go! BY A LOT!
I need to slug his gun but had nothing soft to fit so I need to cast some pure boolits. I have to wonder if he has under size throats in relation to the bore.
The BFR has a .475" groove size and .4765" throats and nothing I shoot will go in his gun. That makes it hard to load for him. I don't have a smaller size die.
Now my loads fit Whitworths converted SRH made by Jack Huntington. He was out the other day and was hitting tin cans and plastic bottles at 100 yards. He was smacking my steel pig in the center off hand at 100 too. His gun takes 1/2 gr more 296 due to a slower twist.
Anyway, you need to know all measurements and be very careful what tools you use at the bench. Don't do anything to mess up brass or boolits. Each gun needs it's own fit.
All expanders and crimp dies are not the same. Each manufacturer has their own ideas. What works for you might be way off for the next fella.
Superior shooting only comes from thinking and a little work before you even stuff the first round in your gun.
By the way, I tested crimps long ago when shooting IHMSA and NO crimp will improve ignition with cast and very little with jacketed unless you ruin the brass for extended reloading.
I shot single shot with ZERO crimp and had great accuracy from a revolver and accuracy never improved all the way to a hard crimp.
Just crimp enough to keep boolits in the brass.
The worst experiment I did was to anneal some brass for the .44. I shot one and the other four all pulled out and tied up the gun. Try to remove a cylinder when THAT happens! :bigsmyl2:

[Bass Ackward]

Crimp makes a tremendous amount of difference or none at all to even be a negative if you are crimping so heavy that you release your neck tension. I find the big / visual difference to be about 24,000 psi where you can plainly see it. Bullet hardness is also factor. If you operate softer or below that point you argue one way and above it another.

So how do you know?

Crimp testing on a different style crimp (bullet) or new or different brass is done the same way that primer strength is tested.

Load an empty case with a hard PB bullet that is larger than the bore lubed with LLA and then load and shoot it. You can either use a ruler or dowel rod in from the muzzle to measure. Or you can tap out the slug (reason for the LLA, especially in new guns) and measure the rifling marks length from the base if it doesn't go all the way in.

This will tell you many things. If you have never done this before, then you can also switch primer brands and give yourself something else to think about.