T/C Hawken in 45 caliber

[Charlie Sometimes]

Been watching for one for a while now, and stumbled onto one at gunshow today- cheap! :-D
Pretty good shape- bore was left dirty, and has some light rust.
It is soaking overnight (Kroil) right now, and will get a good scrubbing tomorrow! 8-)

I disassembled this one to check the lock and clean the set triggers, and found an orange tag with a 5 digit number on it under the rear of the trigger guard placed there by the factory I guess. The number does not match the serial number on the barrel.

I've never noticed that on others I have taken apart before.

Any ideas?

[dualsport]

Sounds like an inspectors/quality control number tag. Just guessing.

[mooman76]

Might be some kind of production number or if he sent it in to be repaired could be a traking number of some sorts.

[GabbyM]

It could indeed have been sent in for a trigger group repair. My TC Hawkins has sprung triggers from way back when I was a teenager. Shot it with heavy loads long after all my nipples were severely worn out. The hammer would re cock from all the gas coming out the nipple. Eventually I messed up the trigger. Can't set it light anymore and the double set is really hosed up. So my advise would be to never run out of new spare nipples.

[Charlie Sometimes]

It could indeed have been sent in for a trigger group repair. My TC Hawkins has sprung triggers from way back when I was a teenager. Shot it with heavy loads long after all my nipples were severely worn out. The hammer would re cock from all the gas coming out the nipple. Eventually I messed up the trigger. Can't set it light anymore and the double set is really hosed up. So my advise would be to never run out of new spare nipples.

You do know that you can send the triggers, etc. back and they will repair it for free, don't you? They will sell you replacement nipples, too, but there are a lot of after market nipples out there now more efficient- Knight Red Hot, etc. I think they are 1/4-28 threaded. :idea:

I've got a Renegade that I have never had to take the trigger guard off of- I'll see if it has a tag. :?:

When I first read your post, the part "after all my nipples were severely worn out." maded me think, "That's gotta hurt!" :lol:

[lonewolf5347]

5 digit number BARREL
I would say late 70's not made by t/c more like Douglas barrel company
I was told by a old timer there one day over the phone the early 4 digits were Saron barrel then douglas.
I have a 50 cal. 5 digit and I can tell you it tack drive RB and patch with 95 grains of 3F goex\
I did have a sharon barrel in 50 cal. or 45 can't remember but it was a rust bucket
I had a few with dark bores and pitts funny thing they still shot excellent the J@B bore paste and kroil works wonders.I would go with a 54 bore brush on a 50 cal.

[Charlie Sometimes]

The rifle has a 6 digit barrel number (53xxxx) and the orange tag is 5 digits (09xxx).
Not anywhere near matching.

Douglas Barrels is about 40 miles from me, and they still do great work.

It cleaned up okay after soaking all night in Kroil- couldn't see the rifling in it for all the crud yesterday, but now it looks pretty good.
Now, I just need to shoot it some and get the barrel seasoned again.

I love these traditional Thompson/Center rifles!
I wouldn't hit a bull in the a$$ with an in-line (might as well be carrying a centerfire).
Too bad T/C still don't make the variety they did 30 years ago now.

[Tom W.]

My first T/C Hawken wouldn't hit the inside of a barn if the muzzle was pressed against the wall. I sent the whole thing back to T/C and they sent me a new one. I replaced the adjustable sights with a set of T/C fixed sights and was very happy until my lock broke. I sent THAT back and all has been well since. It will cloverleaf a patched round ball load at 75 yards easily. I have the set trigger set very lightly....


I missed out on being able to get a "Big Boar" .58 cal...

[dualsport]

I had one way back traded it off, like the fool that I am. The old TCs are great in my opinion. I have an early one with a bolster and interchangeable locks (flint and perc.) in .50 that shoots good. About that first post, the hammer blowing back from gas pressure is a sign of too much pressure, I believe. I have a TC White Mountain carbine in .54 that is nice, knocks hell out of critters. The only .58 I have anymore is a Zouave, a little long for a huntin' gun, but not really that heavy, shoots round balls ok, not great. I love shooting my muzzleloaders, wish I had that Big Boar back.

[Geraldo]

The rifle has a 6 digit barrel number (53xxxx) and the orange tag is 5 digits (09xxx).
Not anywhere near matching.

Douglas Barrels is about 40 miles from me, and they still do great work.

It cleaned up okay after soaking all night in Kroil- couldn't see the rifling in it for all the crud yesterday, but now it looks pretty good.
Now, I just need to shoot it some and get the barrel seasoned again.

I love these traditional Thompson/Center rifles!
I wouldn't hit a bull in the a$$ with an in-line (might as well be carrying a centerfire).
Too bad T/C still don't make the variety they did 30 years ago now.

Charlie,

I have a .45 20th Anniversary barrel that has a slightly lower serial number than yours, so you've got a 1990s rifle. That's as close as you can get to getting a year of production as TC no longer has records. Does yours have the QLA at the muzzle? I just wonder because my .45 does and that might be why you can't see the rifling all that well. I have no idea if they added the QLA wholesale or just on hit and miss barrel runs.

TC doesn't make the variety they did years ago, but Green Mountain barrels and old Hawkens and Renegades are pretty plentiful. On those two TC stocks I shoot a variety of TC and GM flint or percussion barrels in .40 through .62. It's the poor man's rifle battery.

[testhop]

the qlawas for fast loading sabos or maxie ball .
i have one that i couldnt get the patch round ball to work , the patch wouldroll to one side so i had the qla cut off shoots great now.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Nope, no QLA. The rifling comes clear to the end.
Barrel is 29+ inches long.
I got it cleaned, after a LOT of scrubbing and an overnight soaking, and you can see them just fine now.
From the look of it, it had been a while since anyone even thought about cleaning it.
Light rust all the way down, along with the fouling- patch after patch red with rust before i got a smooth pass.
Doesn't appear to be hurt any- the rifling that I can now clearly see is good.

I'm gonna clean it again this weekend to see what else comes out before I start shooting it.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Cleaned it again today- got more crude out, and it's got a real smooth tip to tail feel to it now. I used good ol' HOT, soapy water, followed by a good swabbing with undiluted Balistol.

Next week sometime, maybe, I might get to shoot it- deer rifle season starts on Monday! [smilie=w:

[Charlie Sometimes]

Finally got to shoot it last Saturday (1-23-10)! Started with the 440 RB, and standard TC patches (prelubed that I had on hand), with 40 and 45 gr. loads of FFFg Goex (from a can of powder 25 years old).
It didn't shoot too bad, but the bore feels like it needs fired more to reseason it. After two shots, I needed to clean it to get the patched RB's to go past 8 inches. When clean, they go down real smooth. I ended up cleaning after every 4th shot by the time I was done firing. I'd like it to be at least 5, but closer to 10.
Patching was a little dry too. I fixed that by adding some Crisco to them today to soften them. They probably been sitting too long and dried out. Next time we'll see.
440 RB didn't quite seem to be tight enough with this patching. I could start them into the bore with my thumb. Gonna try 445 RB next to see, then some 45 Maxi-Balls with a double/heavier load.

[part_timer]

Sound like it's coming right along. I have a Renegade in 54 that I like a lot. I got it in about the same condition as your was in but it shoots deer just fine now. Some day I'll rework the stock but for now I figure a few more scratches in it won't be noticed.

[mooman76]

A tighter patch/ball combo will probably help clean the bore some. Try a thicker patch until you can get some 445 balls. Should shoot allot better also when you tighten it up.

[waksupi]

Charlie, go up to around 60-65 grains, and moose milk lube. Should be able to shoot all day without fouling the barrel, with pretty close to the right load.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I've got the 445 RB's (I have Lyman molds for both- and have several hundred of each ready to go). :grin:

I just ran a spit patch down the bore to clean, so it wasn't bad to remove the build up.
Spit patch, and then two dry ones- pop a cap, and go back to shooting! :smile:

I will try the 60-65 gr. loads next time- with the 445's. My old rifle always worked well in the 40-45 gr. range for target popping, so that is where I started.
I will make some moose milk to use, too. When I used to attend regular matches more formally, back in the day, I always loaded with a spit patch- kept them in my mouth, and the bore stayed clean enough to last through the match (50 shots, usually). :grin:

I only use prelubed patches when hunting.

[thumper50]

Try 70gr 3f goex,felt wad and 245gr maxiball. Drives tacks at 50yd in my .45 hawken!!

[vulture47]

I used to shoot in our local black powder rifle events some years ago and we could shoot all day without cleaning the bores once and all we used were patches we would stick in our mouths and get nice and wet. This is a very poor idea if you are hunting and for that I always used lubed patches, but for shot after shot during a shooting seasion the "spit" patch is great. Each damp patch tends to clean the bore from the previous shot just enough that the rifle continues to load smooth and fouling doesn't get a chance to build up as bad. I have a Leman style rifle built by me using a Greenriver barrel in .54, a flintlock built using a Green Mountain barrel, and a .54 caplock using a Green Mountain barrel built around a Southern Mountain style stock. All of them shot very well with the good old stand by spit patch.

[White Smoke]

I just purchased a used 45 caliber T/C Hawken and took it to the range the other day. The rifle looks like it is in brand new condition. I was just going to shoot a few rounds through it to get the "feel" of the gun and started out with 70 grains of Pyrodex RS, a .440 round ball and greased pillow ticking patches. The first thing I noticed was that it did not have the QLA muzzle system my other T/C's have as the RB was TIGHT right from the start. It was so tight that I really had trouble starting the bullet with the short starter. The short start even left marks on the ball. The rifle shot fine but I'm really questioning what ball to shoot in it. I just ordered a box of .433 balls to see how they will load and shoot. Anyone have any other ideas?

[GBertolet]

White Smoke, I have the same gun, and with the .440 RB I had to try several different thicknesses of patching to get it right. I think if you find thinner patching, you will get the correct fit.

[Geraldo]

The first thing I noticed was that it did not have the QLA muzzle system my other T/C's have as the RB was TIGHT right from the start. It was so tight that I really had trouble starting the bullet with the short starter. The short start even left marks on the ball. The rifle shot fine but I'm really questioning what ball to shoot in it. I just ordered a box of .433 balls to see how they will load and shoot. Anyone have any other ideas?

The first question is how did it shoot? If it shot one hole groups I'd learn to live with it.

As suggested you can play around with patch thickness, but I wouldn't worry about the starter leaving marks the ball because they do not affect accuracy. In my TC and GM .45 barrels I use .440 RB and .015-.018" pillow ticking patches.

[mooman76]

I'd try a thinner patch also. It hard to say what is tight from what you say of coarse because what we think are tight may be totally different from what you think. What Geraldo said is right to but personally I don't like a super tight ball/patch combo fo just having fun shooting but I do like it a little tight. Maybe you're just not used to it being a different gun. You said it looked new, maybe it is and it might loosen up some after awhile.

[Geraldo]

Mooman76 has a good point in that it is may just be a difference that takes some getting used to. Each barrel is different, and I keep notes on each one so I know what it shoots best.

Two other things to consider: first is that I wouldn't go with a patch of less than .010". I tried that a long time ago with a particularly tight .54 TC in an effort to make use of .535" RB I had on hand. The results were not impressive. The second thing is that I would try conicals in the barrel and see if it doesn't shoot better with them than RB. I always try RB in every barrel, but some shoot other boolit designs far better than they do RB.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Too tight of a patch, or oversize ball will just deform and cut your patch- possibly defeating it's purpose of gas seal and lubing the bore. Tight is good (or very snug), and too much of a good thing is ...... well, too much! :smile:

[White Smoke]

Thanks to all for the replies. All good info. As far as "tightness", I can't stuff the ball down with my thumb like I can with a QLA barrel so I set the RB on the patch and then have to smack the short starter with the palm of my hand pretty damn hard, sometimes several times just to get it started to where I can use the longer portion of the short start to get it partially down the barrel. The ball winds up with a pretty good ring on its face from the starter. I have three other BP rifles so I do have a good feel for the correct "tightness" and this one is WAY too tight. I think the pillow ticking I'm using is either .015 or .018 so I'll try some .010 patches to see how they work. I think between the different patch thicknesses and the .433 balls, I should find a combination that will work. I didn't shoot it for a grouping yet. That will be next week...I think. Thanks again for the thoughts and suggestions.

[GabbyM]

I used to use a cleaning patch on a .440 RB when I needed a fast load. Then the heavy patch for accuracy. The TC brand patches I have from way back measure .015”. It would not suprise me to hear your palm turned blue from seating a 440 ball over .015" patch in my TC Hawkins.

I assume you do have pure lead balls? I've shot plenty of WW balls but they are hard to load.

I have the .440" RB ,245gr Maxi, 200 gr Lee REAL and a big RCBS hollow base Minie. Think it's 265 grains or something. Just got that one off ebay last year and haven't shot it. The Minie only measures .447" and will drop right down the barrel. Should work out great for follow up shots in the field. Those Maxi balls are hard to load without swabbing the barrel first. Used to get one reload down the bore but the second reload got hard. Fumbling for a ball starter as your deer runs off is not to effective either. Will be interesting to see how many loads I can get with the Minie before cleaning the bore. Whether or not the Hawkins will stabilize that big a bullet is still in question. It's .808" long with a .305" meplat. The 245gr Maxi is .732" long.

[mooman76]

Pillow ticking I believe usually runs around .017/8. If you have an old cotton dress shirt they usually run around .012/3 or so and I find they work good because they have a good tight weave and are strong too.

[Charlie Sometimes]

You, sir, have finally hit the nail on the head!

The same number as on the tag under the trigger guard is engraved on the under side of the butt plate! I now know that these parts have never been separated.

Thank you for satisfying my curosity!

[White Smoke]

White Smoke, I have the same gun, and with the .440 RB I had to try several different thicknesses of patching to get it right. I think if you find thinner patching, you will get the correct fit.

You were absolutely right! I have two different patches in my shooting box, some pillow ticking patches that are .018 and some thinner pre-lubed patches by T/C. I don't know the thickness of the T/C patches. I used the .433 balls with the pillow ticking patches and they went down the barrel perfectly. I then used the .440 balls with the thinner T/C patches and they went down fine also. When I first shot the rifle, I used the .440 balls and the thicker pillow ticking and it was WAY too tight. Since I have another .45 Kentucky that uses .440 balls (with pillow ticking patches), I think I'll just burn up the .433's and stay with the .440's and use the thinner patches with the Hawken and the thicker ones with the Kentucky. Thanks for the help.

[DwarvenChef]

Charlie Sometimes,

Years ago, when T/C made their own stocks in house, the buttplate, patchbox, nosecap, and escutcheons were mounted to the unfinished stock so they set just proud of the stock. The stock and brass work were sanded together so that the brass would fit flush with the stock. They were then taken apart, the stock went for finishing and the brass went to the buffing room for polishing. These parts were numbered so that the brass could be reunited with the proper stock in the assembly area.

Pull your buttplate and see if the number matches the tag you found under the trigger guard.

Phineas

Sweet, I just pulled my butt plate and found the numbers there. Looked to the rest and found the same #'s :) but mine only had 3 digets... Not that it maters...

I saw a mention that TC lost the serial number/date of manufacture info. Is that info out there ? Or is it just hear say now?

I ask as I'm looking to get a Flinty 50 to match my perc and I'd like to get them close to the same era so to speak.

Mine is pre warning so that part is easy, but after that I don't know how to date any of it. Any help there??

[Charlie Sometimes]

Good luck.
I think there was a fire some time ago that destroyed a lot of their records, and the spare parts for some of the other rifles they used to offer (Seneca, Cherokee, etc.). You will probably get only as close as a decade or so of your other rifle.