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View Full Version : 25 ACP, Going Bravely Where No One Has Been!



Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 12:14 AM
Okay all you guys that just love the 25 ACP, you can come out of the closet and enjoy a post about the midget auto! Enjoying where no other has been before, my work with the 25 ACP turned a corner as I made first cast with a project I started well over a year ago. I've been modeling some self defense cast bullets for semi autos, for me personally, after my big game bullets and one bullet I've been looking forward to working with cast today.

My TL256-57-RF (http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TL25657RF) dropped today just as pretty as you please. The bullet is right on weight, 57-grains with plumbers lead, and diameter. Next week I will see how they do on an actual target!

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TL25657RF/Images/TL25657RF_first_cast.JPG

Here is a pile of first cast bullets. I ordered my molds in a two cavity as my previous Lee 252-50-RF had problems keeping up to casting temperature. I figured the six cavity blocks would really make it difficult. May be not. I was able to actually get the mold too hot but at 650° the bullets just fell right out of it. It still was very quick.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TL25657RF/Images/TL25657RF_vs_GD.JPG

A close up of the Ranch Dog TL256-57-RF as a cartridge vs. my Gold Dot reloads. The bullet on the left is a reject, I guess I could have chosen a pretty bullet for the picture. The RD bullet manually cycled very well through my JA-25. Sometimes the Gold Dots do not feed smoothly. The hang up seems to be the lead/copper serrations on the rim of the nose against the ramp. Not real sure, just a little drag. The big thing about the Gold Dots is the expense and I've always had a bug up my rump about them. I saw a fellow shot through the heart with one and it didn't expand one lick. The hollow point was plugged with heart tissue, a gang banger not wearing a shirt, but it didn't do a thing. It barely made it through the dude. I found it when I was checking him to make sure he was dead, it was laying right beside him. Since then, I simply haven't trusted them. Unfortunately, the Hornady XTPs have never been offered as a componet in this caliber.

I purchased QuickLoad specifically for this and my 380 Auto bullet as there is no load data available for a 57-grain 25 ACP bullet or a 125-grain 380 Auto bullet. So far, my 32 ACP and 9mm Luger bullets are shooting very slick. I'm very pleased with this work to date. I might be out of business but the gray matter is still out there sparking!

dk17hmr
11-13-2009, 12:30 AM
Got any more of those molds? or did you just have 1 cut?
I might be PM'ing you if this ever gets off the ground.... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63806

Are you sizing and tumble lubing them?

lathesmith
11-13-2009, 12:31 AM
Please keep us posted here, I also have an interest in using an old Lyman mold and getting cast to work with this midget cartridge. I've got some slugs cast up, but I have not yet had the chance to work up any loads. Looks promising!

lathesmith

Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 12:57 AM
Doug, I purchased just enough molds for my personal use. Despite so many successful bullets, I still freak out thinking I might end up with a looser one day and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. There is also quite a difference in bore diameter across the various 25 ACPs I've looked at. The bullet could always be sized down to fit any of them. I'm tumble lubing them with Alox and will run them through a .256 sizerjust to make sure they are true. I have a Lee set of dies and will have to ream out the barrel of my bullet seating die. With the case expanded to except the bullet, the brass drags on the inside diameter of the barrel. I had to do this with my 44 Mag dies because the .432" diameter bullet was doing the same thing. Not a big issue and easy to cure.

I'm really excited about this work lathesmith. The Lee 252 was undersized but it was free! I lapped it but still wasn't happy with it because I want a big flat nose than feeds. If I have to use it in a self defense situation, I want it to hurt. Like I said, so far my work with the 32 ACP and 9mm Luger has been outstanding and fun too!

Oh, I will start on my TL358-125-RF for my 380 Autos next week! Pumped about them too!

quack1
11-13-2009, 08:38 AM
RD-- Hornady did sell .25 XTP's as components. I bought a box 7-8 years ago. I'm at work now and can't check, but I think they weighed 40gr. They fed perfectly and shot pretty well in my Colt .25. Might be able to find them at gun shows.

richbug
11-13-2009, 09:18 AM
RD-- Hornady did sell .25 XTP's as components. I bought a box 7-8 years ago. I'm at work now and can't check, but I think they weighed 40gr. They fed perfectly and shot pretty well in my Colt .25. Might be able to find them at gun shows.


The ones I have seen were sold as "BLEMS", and not called XTP's even though a blind man could have told you that is what they were.

44man
11-13-2009, 09:42 AM
RD, looks like fun but how do you know you have one of those little things between your fingers to even get one in the press? :bigsmyl2:

1Shirt
11-13-2009, 10:09 AM
I once loaded 100 rounds of these little things for a guy who bought me the dies, blts, etc. After nearly making paper punch holes in my fingers, and actually cutting off a little skin a couple of times decided I didn't ever want to load 25 ACP ever again. Gave him the 100 rounds (that he said shot great), the dies, and told him to find someone else to load for him, or to learn to load himself. Also recommended that he buy at least a 380, or a 22LR, either of which would have better suited him purpose.
1Shirt!:coffee:

Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 10:10 AM
44man,

The bullet isn't the problem, it's finding that case as the shellholder swallows it!

45 2.1
11-13-2009, 10:24 AM
44man,

The bullet isn't the problem, it's finding that case as the shellholder swallows it!

No, the problem isn't that. Its getting the boolit started straight in that little case neck with your big fingers in the way. :bigsmyl2:

Your NOT the first one to try improved boolits in the 25 ACP, no siree................

quack1
11-13-2009, 12:03 PM
richbug- You have me thinking. I don't think they were blems and think the box did say XTP, but the older I get the less I remember. I'm pretty sure I still have the box with a few bullets. I'll check when I get off work.

Gunfixer
11-13-2009, 12:16 PM
FWIW
RD years ago Winchester had a load in the 25 called the pellet nose. Had a steel shot piece in a hollow point bullet. I never shot them but I did duplicate the idea in a 45acp with Remington 185's and it is impressive. Might try it with the Gold Dots. And good luck with the boolits, they look good.

Edubya
11-13-2009, 12:52 PM
That brings up a memory; A bunch of guys were sitting around the camp fire discussing their self-defense weapons and a some-what noobe interjects; "I have a .25 automatic." A retired SF fellow sitting there that doesn't talk much about anything simply said; "If you ever shot me with that thing and I found out about it, I'd have to hurt you real badly." There was silence for about 5 seconds while we all digested the thought, then there was a roar of laughter.
EW

9.3X62AL
11-13-2009, 01:21 PM
I still don't--and won't--reload the 25 ACP. I have no arms in that caliber. I well remember the mirth and ribaldry that ensued when I mentioned here a couple years back about buying a die set in the caliber, though. The peanut gallery was in full cry, to include a certain site owner of my acquaintance. I glad to see that many have matured beyond such juvenile drollery.

That's an interesting nose form, RD. I've talked a bit with Starmetal over the years concerning similar work on the 32 ACP, 30 Luger, and 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev.

I had a similar experience with XTP bullets on duty. A drug dealer received his severance allowance one day in the form of base metals at high speed, with permanent results. When the coroner arrived and we started rolling the body over, a 32 caliber XTP bullet fell out of the guy's unbuttoned shirt. Other than rifling striations, it looked like it could be re-seated and fired again. It was a cannelured 85 grain XTP all right, identical to a couple hundred I had on the loading bench at home. And, the shooter got arrested a bit later with an H&R 32 Magnum in reach. I love stories with happy endings--one dope slinger in the dirt, another in the joint.

mag44uk
11-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Slightly OT but relating to 25acp!
Back in the old days when we had handguns in the UK a friend of mine used to reload 25acp for his then wife. I think it was a little Beretta semi.
She came to the club one evening wearing a knee length skirt.
She was a very trim and a very pretty woman.
I asked her why the skirt and not the usual jeans.
She reached down and pulled one side of her skirt up revealing stockings and the 25 acp tucked into the top of one!
She let me shoot it and it was still warm!
Mmmmmmmm!
Always think of her when 25acp is talked about.
Regards,
Tony

pjh421
11-13-2009, 02:27 PM
Ranch Dog,
I enjoy my RD 30-165 mould and to say "thanks", I will simply ask you to not use your .25 for self defense until it grows up into a .25-06.
The idea of improving the performance of the 9mm on down is noble but pointless since API rounds are not looked upon with favor by juries even though they would absolutely ruin a gangbanger's day.

Paul

AZ-Stew
11-13-2009, 06:18 PM
Hmmmm...

Two bad guys dead with bullets that failed shot from cartridges that are too small for "serious" work....

Regards,

Stew

crabo
11-13-2009, 06:25 PM
What does the 9mm boolit look like?

Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 06:54 PM
What does the 9mm boolit look like?

Here you go!
TL356-135-RF (http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TL356135RF)

Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 06:59 PM
I still don't--and won't--reload the 25 ACP. I have no arms in that caliber. I well remember the mirth and ribaldry that ensued when I mentioned here a couple years back about buying a die set in the caliber, though. The peanut gallery was in full cry, to include a certain site owner of my acquaintance. I glad to see that many have matured beyond such juvenile.

Yes, not much love here for the caliber. Really though, I don't care. I'm not looking for approval or opinions just showing guys what I'm working on. Heck, if I would have listened to all the advice on what a poor choice Micro Bands and tumbling lubing was I would be back shooting jacketed bullets!

Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 07:01 PM
Slightly OT but relating to 25acp!
Back in the old days when we had handguns in the UK a friend of mine used to reload 25acp for his then wife. I think it was a little Beretta semi.
She came to the club one evening wearing a knee length skirt.
She was a very trim and a very pretty woman.
I asked her why the skirt and not the usual jeans.
She reached down and pulled one side of her skirt up revealing stockings and the 25 acp tucked into the top of one!
She let me shoot it and it was still warm!
Mmmmmmmm!
Always think of her when 25acp is talked about.
Regards,
Tony

Tony,

I will always keep this gal in mind as I'm busting caps!

Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 07:02 PM
No, the problem isn't that. Its getting the boolit started straight in that little case neck with your big fingers in the way. :bigsmyl2:

Your NOT the first one to try improved boolits in the 25 ACP, no siree................

45,

Would you like to share what you worked with?

Ranch Dog
11-13-2009, 07:04 PM
Hmmmm...

Two bad guys dead with bullets that failed shot from cartridges that are too small for "serious" work....

Regards,

Stew

The Gold Dot I mentioned was from a 357 Mag!

quack1
11-13-2009, 07:53 PM
I found the box of .25 XTP's. They are not marked seconds. Thr bar-code label on the top makes me think they came from Midway. I did guess the weight wrong-they're 35gr not 40gr.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/1quack1/IMG_0191.jpg

Catshooter
11-13-2009, 07:55 PM
The Gold Dot I mentioned was from a 357 Mag!

Yes, majic bullets.

You want to get jumped on, just say that you don't trust jacketed hollow points and prefer a cast semi wadcutter!

Now you make me kinda wish I hadn't sold everything 25 ACP!

Enjoy your testing/shooting.


Cat

pjh421
11-13-2009, 08:25 PM
Two bad guys dead???!!!! Holy cow! That settles it then.

Seriously, any kind of shooting/load development sounds like fun to me. I wish you the best of luck with it.

I'll bet the .380 could benefit from a powdered tungsten core to get a heavier projectile in the same space. Its got a little more boiler room, too.

Ricochet
11-13-2009, 11:27 PM
I remember that Winchester pellet-nose bullet. They got the idea from old English Express bullets.

I long ago heard a cop talking about a fellow cop who was killed by a .25 fired through a wooden door. It went through his heart and came out his back. The dead cop's friend was right there and saw it happen, and was impressed enough by what it did that he always afterward carried a .25 as a hideout gun. (He carried an M29 as his main piece.)

I was watching one of those forensic files shows the other night, about a restaurant owner who got murdered, as it turned out by a disgruntled employee. When found, he had a bruised knot in his central forehead. The .25 that went in the back of his head stopped under the skin there.

.25s may not be the ideal "stopper," but they deserve respect.

Ranch Dog
11-14-2009, 01:46 AM
I found the box of .25 XTP's. They are not marked seconds. Thr bar-code label on the top makes me think they came from Midway. I did guess the weight wrong-they're 35gr not 40gr.

Very interesting! Same bullet as their loaded ammo but I've never seen them offered as a component.

dualsport
11-14-2009, 04:51 AM
Hey, any gun is better than bare hands, even the .25. If someone was shooting one in my face I think I'd duck. My Mom carried a little Colt when she lived in Chicago, long ago, it was enough to deter two attacks. That's a nice looking bullet RD. I remember reading an article way back by a guy making .25 bullets out of steel on a lathe, penetrated like heck.

richbug
11-14-2009, 10:13 AM
I found the box of .25 XTP's. They are not marked seconds. Thr bar-code label on the top makes me think they came from Midway. I did guess the weight wrong-they're 35gr not 40gr.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/1quack1/IMG_0191.jpg

I never doubted you for a second, just stating my experiences.

Looking at that picture makes my hands hurt. I think I'll go reload some grown up bullets.

44man
11-14-2009, 10:35 AM
I don't think we should be talking defense, just fun! Any gun is fun. Darn, if I could load .22's, I would try it.

Ranch Dog
11-14-2009, 01:39 PM
I don't think we should be talking defense, just fun! Any gun is fun. Darn, if I could load .22's, I would try it.

Same here, I take great pleasure in starting with a blank page and seeing it through.

AZ-Stew
11-15-2009, 07:55 PM
The Gold Dot I mentioned was from a 357 Mag!

I just went back and read your original post (the one that prompted me to make that remark) and it looks like you were talking about a .25 Gold Dot, since it's included in your comments about your new boolit which don't mention a different caliber. I'm not coming down on you, just explaining my comment.

Either way, I guess it pays not to get shot with ANY caliber.

Your design is interesting. I have a set of Corbin dies that use shotgun primer battery cups as jackets for .25 caliber softpoint handgun bullets. I got them from a former gun writer 20 or so years ago and haven't tried them out yet. One of these days...

Regards,

Stew

leadeye
11-15-2009, 08:54 PM
Good luck with those, the 32 ACP is enough of a finger biter for me, and I don't have anything that uses 25. When I started reloading 32ACP I thought about trying the 100 grain Lee but chickened out over the case capacity. I will be following how your 25 project goes.[smilie=s:

1Shirt
11-15-2009, 09:41 PM
Anything Ranch Dog does is of interest to me, even if I don't really appreciate the value of some of his endevors. Sure do enjoy his 165 30 cal, his 190 357, his .375, and his 44's, and consider myself lucky to get them befor he got out of the business.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

LIMPINGJ
11-15-2009, 10:57 PM
Michael did you ever make a design fot the .32acp? Just was wondering if there would enough interest in a GB if someone would make a drawing for NOE to use?

beemer
11-16-2009, 12:04 AM
leadeye
I have used the Lee 311-100-2R in the 32 ACP(CZ-50) with good results. You do not have much case capacity left but 1.1 grs. of Bullseye will operate my pistol and is fun to shoot. I seated the boolits out as far as I could and still fit in the mag, in my pistol it was .990. The vel. is a little less than 600 but it will build up fast. I went up to 1.4 grs. of BE, the vel was 730 but I backed back down as the lighter load hits POA at about 30 ft.

Dave

armyrat1970
11-16-2009, 06:06 AM
While I agree the 25 is a meek and weak cartridge, it is a good little pocket pistol for around the house. I owned a Raven back in the '80s and wish I never sold it. Accurate as hell with no recoil to talk about. Could easily place all 6 shots into a perps face or chest at 15 to 20 ft. I say experiment on. I sometimes keep my old H&R 922 by my side in the house. Have it next to me right now while typing. It is mostly not the caliber, but shot placement that decides the final outcome.

Hey Michael I know I have at least 50, or more, range pick up 25 cases. If you want them for your experiment, you just cover the shipping in a USPS small flat rate box and they are yours. Only be around $5. PM me if you want them.

45 2.1
11-16-2009, 08:18 AM
45,

Would you like to share what you worked with?

I have the NEI and RCBS molds for the 25 ACP. I have flat pointed both and tried the flat meplat and drilled HPs in them. They weighed somewhere in the low 40 gr. range and can be pushed (very dependent on which pistol you have) pretty good (powder was RedDot). They expanded nicely and showed some expansion cavity in clay. A lot better than the factory offerings.

lathesmith
11-16-2009, 10:19 AM
I've got a Gun Digest from the early '90's in which the author of an article discusses the "P" factor--penetration--that is an overlooked element in "stopping power". To make a long story short(er), he discusses the fact that any gunshot wound is a serious puncture wound, enough in and of itself to stop a surprisingly high number of negative social encounters. Others can do what they like, but if I am going to rely on one of these pipsqeaks to stop an attack, I want the most solid slug I can get--expansion don't interest me, only punching as deep a hole as possible. Far from being useless, these little guys can be very useful in a number of bad situations.
lathesmith

Ranch Dog
11-16-2009, 10:24 AM
Michael did you ever make a design fot the .32acp? Just was wondering if there would enough interest in a GB if someone would make a drawing for NOE to use?

Limping, I've been shooting my TL314-70-RF in my Bryco M38 32 ACP for quite a while. It took only two months to get those molds from Lee but 14 months for the others? Any way, it shoots quite a bit better than the MagTech FMJs and the Speer Gold Dots I've tried. I use 2.2-grains for 800 FPS from the 2.8" barrel. I just purchased a JA-32, Jimenez Arms has just started offering this cartridge in their pocket gun. It will never see jacketed bullets.

Like any of my drawings, I don't mind someone using them with one condition. If you change something, don't call them a "Ranch Dog".

Ranch Dog
11-16-2009, 10:27 AM
Hey Michael I know I have at least 50, or more, range pick up 25 cases. If you want them for your experiment, you just cover the shipping in a USPS small flat rate box and they are yours. Only be around $5. PM me if you want them.

Thanks for the offer armyrat but I have several thousand of the MagTech and a thousand of the Remington cases onhand. May be someone else could use them?

pjh421
11-16-2009, 12:01 PM
Stew & RD
I don't mean to be a wet blanket about this. Its just that I worked with a guy in CA who was shot in the head with a .25ACP while using an ATM. He kicked the a$$ of the guy who shot him & had him arrested which means he had to wait until the police arrived after he seized the gun. I told him he was lucky the guy didn't use a .45ACP. At the emergency room they recovered the bullet, which had travelled around the outside of his skull underneath the skin. In its present form, I have serious misgivings regarding the efficacy of the .25 in combat.

So, what will it take? A heavier slug? Higher velocity? Lead is not dense enough to substantially raise the bullet's weight in the allotted space. Maybe a slightly slower powder with a tungsten-cored bullet? I'd be interested in seeing whether someone could crack the code on making the .25s et.al. useful.

Paul

Ranch Dog
11-16-2009, 12:34 PM
It served me very well Paul. I would have been arrested for carrying a larger weapon because it would not have been concealable. To each their own.

HORNET
11-16-2009, 08:52 PM
BTW, pjh421, the .380 will do interesting things with the Lee 125TC and hefty doses of Blue Dot. Just got to watch for the cases to start bulging into unsupported areas. The 100 grain Speer has potential as well. Check their older manuals.

gunfan
04-24-2013, 04:40 PM
Bryce McGillivray loaded some 51 grain Remington FMJ bullets over 2 grains of Unique. This load isn't for any zinc-alloy, or aluminum-framed self-loading pistols.

933 fps/ 99 fpe from a Beretta Model 20.

(Bryce would be angry with me if I didn't make this disclaimer.)

Scott

9.3X62AL
04-24-2013, 07:12 PM
900 FPS was the performance standard spec'd by John Browning for the 50 grain FMJ. I haven't seen any factory ammo even get close to that figure, most of it runs in the 700-750 FPS ballpark. It's no devastator, but it has inflicted its share of fatal wounds through the years.

swheeler
04-24-2013, 07:18 PM
Bobby Kennedy might think so

Green Lizzard
04-24-2013, 10:05 PM
a little gun in your pocket is better than a big one in your safe

Catshooter
04-25-2013, 10:16 PM
Damn straight Green Liaazrd. Way too many good men and women don't carry 100% of the time.


Cat

Green Lizzard
04-28-2013, 10:16 PM
cat the trick is when you start dont stop till you need a new mag