Help me get started with my .54 TC Renegade

[BowHunter252]

I have several questions here, thanks in advance for any help.

I've had this gun for a while now and never shot it, or any other ML for that matter. I want to start shooting it some and work up a hunting load. I would like to cast boolits for it. Would any of these molds work:

1. .45-70 450 gr flat nose mold
2. .490 round ball
3. .45 minie 298 gr

I guess I would need to use several patches to get any of these to work. Is there any problem with that?

What bullet would you all recommend for the best accuracy?

I have some triple 7 powder.

How often do I need to clean the barrel? Can I shoot 10 shots or so without cleaning? And when I do clean, is just a quick few passes with a patch fine if I am going to be shooting more that day?

Also, There is this gap behind my barrel. Is this normal? What should I do to fix it if it needs fixing?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c366/viper252/54-renegade-gap.jpg

[docone31]

No. Those molds will not work for a .54.
Get a 530, and 535 mold. Tighter for target work. Pillow ticking, make your lube.
I like Pyrodex RS, I know nothing about 777.
That gap is normal for an Hawken.
I use R.E.A.L.s for cleaning at the range. Sometimes I smear valve lapping compound on them. Evens things up.
For a starting load, 60-70gns of RS will do well.
Good luck.

[jack19512]

I don't know what your twist rate is but if you are interested in trying some round balls PM me and I would be glad to send you some .530 and .535 round balls I shoot in my .54 ML.

[mooman76]

Best thing to do would be to get a Black powder load manual and read up on it so you know all tha saftey precautions. Only use BP or BP substitutes. NO smokeless powder at all. Those moulds really won't work. They are too far off to shoot even with thick patches. You need to know your barrel twist rate to know what will shoot good. Round balls will shoot good I am sure but you need a .530 or .535 RB. To shoot a maxi or mini you need a certain twist for the bullet to stablize and fly right. A mini has a hollow base which expands when fired and a maxi had a solid base and firs the barrel tighter. The best and most accurate will be deturmined by the twist rat you have. You can run a patch down the barrel with a cleaning solution on it between firings. Each gun is different and may require different intevals for this. You can usually tell by the fact that either your accuracy drops off or it gets too difficult to ram your bullet or RB down the barrel. Never fire your gun with a air gap between the bullet and the powder. The gap you see is probably not a problem. I can't say for sure but if it doesn't have play it probably is good to go. I don't have a TC but it is probably a hooked breach which means you can remove the barrel by removing the wedge pin and lifting out the barrel. It has a hook on the end to hold it in place.

[Maven]

"I've had this gun for a while now and never shot it, or any other ML for that matter. I want to start shooting it some and work up a hunting load. I would like to cast boolits for it. Would any of these molds work: 1. .45-70 450 gr flat nose mold; 2. .490 round ball; 3. .45 minie 298 gr.

"What bullet would you all recommend for the best accuracy?

"I have some triple 7 powder.

"How often do I need to clean the barrel? Can I shoot 10 shots or so without cleaning? And when I do clean, is just a quick few passes with a patch fine if I am going to be shooting more that day?

"Also, There is this gap behind my barrel. Is this normal? What should I do to fix it if it needs fixing?"


BH252,

The easy part first: None of the molds you mention are designed for a .54cal. rifle. You need a .530" RB at the very least and possibly a .535" RB or even the .54cal T/C Maxi-Ball (no patches needed). Hornady and Speer make swaged .530" and .535" RB's, so you may need to buy a box of each and experiment. Btw, T/C typically used patches that were .014" - .016" thick. If you can find that thickness, try them with the .530" RB first. Various places sell them and they don't have to be T/C - made, just the correct thickness.

Sorry, but I can't help you with Triple 7, as I only use BP. The latter and even Pyrodex RS, require a BP compatable patch lube, e.g., Traditions' Wonder Lube or T/C's Bore Butter (There are others too.), but you need to wipe the powder fouling every so often with these and remove the bbl. from the stock and the nipple and clean with warm, soapy water at the end of the day. Use Hoppe's #9 or WD-40 on a patch to keep the bbl. free of rust after cleaning. I just keep the ramrod with the Hoppe's/WD-40 patch in the bbl. until the next time I want to fire it.

I am a bit troubled by the gap you mention and the slight canting/twisting of the bbl. with respect to the tang. Neither should be present to such a degree. You may want to telephone T/C's Customer Service @ 1-603-330-5650 for advice and possibly service (They'll send you a carton for free if you need to ship the rifle to them.). While you're at it, see if they'll send you a manual for their older BP rifles, which contains load data as well as safety and maintenance tips.

Hope this helps!


P.S. Unless your Renegade has an aftermarket bbl., the twist of the original bbl. is 1:48", which allows you to use both RB's and Maxi-Balls (conical bullets)

[masscaster]

Hi BowHunter252,
We carry all the projectiles you require to shoot your firearm. These are reasonably priced for your shooting pleasure.
As mentioned above you'll need to use a .530/.535 Round Ball. Or, if the twist is 1/48 or less a .54 Minie would do nicely. I'd suggest starting out with round balls first at any rate.
Unfortunately Maven must not know we are a Vendor Sponsor here on the Forum, and would realize that swaged Round Ballits cost 3x's what ours does.
Click the link below if you need more info, or PM me with any quesyions you may have.
Sincerely,
Jeff @ Forefather's Casting

[dualsport]

BowHunter, check out TC's web site, I think you can print out a user's manual for your gun. Those are great guns, hang on to it.

[jim4065]

Everything they said is good and solid. I would pull the wedge pin and remove the barrel to check the "patent breech" which is the hook in the breech plug which holds it to the tang. The gap isn't a problem (per se) but you should check the breech plug to be sure that it's screwed tightly into the barrel - and I mean TIGHT. People sometimes remove the plug, then find that they can't get it aligned properly (due to over-tightening) so they back it off a bit. Very unsafe practice - you want that breech tight. (I'm repeating myself.) :oops:

[725]

Just to add to all the above, GET AND READ AN OWNER'S MANUAL. They are free and available. BP rifles are a hoot to shoot. Safe and effective if you follow the rules. There are many variations of how and what you shoot (bullet types, lubes, patches/wads, powders), and almost all of them give you some level of effeciency. For ease of starting out, I'd go with a .530 round ball, prelubed commercial patch and pyrodex. Black powder is harder (for me) to find and pyrodex/triple 7 won't foul as fast. Don't use the preformed pellets in that sidelock. Start on the low side, say 60 - 70 grains of powder. You'll be happy to see just how powderful that load will be. Again, follow the book. As for the gap in your hooked breach piece, a brass shim is easily made from a smashed up brass rifle/pistol case. Just cut and fit. Not required, but might look better. Finally, clean, clean clean. Use a water based cleaner at first cleaning to "wash away" any "salts" from the powder. Water, soapy water work fine. Clean it diligently. Pull the nipple and clean the channel and niple. When you are sure it's clean, clean it all over again with some good penetrating oil to prevent rust. Other have their opinions, but I make sure a good amount of oil reaches the threaded breach area (from inside the barrel) and I let it soak into the threads. I clean it and leave it wet with oil. A few days later, I return and clean it again with oil (which has been working while in storage) and dry it out with clean patches. A little anti-seize on the nipple threads, and a lightly oiled patch to finish up the bore and it's good to go for storage. That second cleaning never fails to suprise me with slight amounts of fouling/rust/?.
There are many good books about BP shooting. Unless your local library has been hit with the political correctness infection, there might be something there. If not, writers like Sam Fadala & companies like Lyman have good primers on the subject. Read a few. They are enjoyable.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I had a first year made .54 TC, until someone borrowed it in the middle of the night. I used 90 to 100 gr. FFg black powder in mine with good accuracy, a bit noisy and pushy - but accurate. I had to have another hole drilled and taped for a TC scope mount due to the early making of the rifle. I still have the single trigger adapter for it for hunting. I just removed the double trigger and installed the single one. I ought to sell it as I no longer have a renegade to use it on. I found the pyrodex and 777 powders to be finicky to ignite sometimes. I started using magnum caps and the ignition problems quit. You can buy Speer .530 round balls at about any sporting goods store cheaper than ordering them and paying shipping charges. Ready cut patches are available at these same stores or get pillow ticking at a fabric/sewing shop. Crisco is a good lube that any kitchen already has for the patch lubing.Robert

[Geraldo]

The gap between the barrel and tang is pretty common in TCs. I don't see anything in the picture indicating that someone has tried to remove the breechplug. TC puts them in tight and they require force or the application of heat to get them out. If you haven't already I would clean it before shooting it.

If you go to www.tcarms.com you can download a pdf version of the manual.

I have a few TC .54 barrels and all of them seem to run a little tight and require swabbing between shots or loading is very difficult. Frankly I do not understand what the problem is with swabbing between shots. First it is a safety issue and second you are sure the bore is pretty much the same shot to shot. I use .530 RB in them with .015 patches and real black powder. For general shooting 50-60 grains is fine as you can only kill the cardboard so dead. For hunting 80-90gr will get the job done on just about anything.

Clean it after each shooting session. It's not that bad and this is where swabbing the bore during shooting pays off. I use a little windshield washer fluid on a patch between shots. When I'm done I run a few more of those down the bore, then when I get home I clean with hot water and Murphys Oil Soap. It rarely takes more than five patches to get the bore clean. I then dry it out and use oil followed by a shot of WD40 and a dry patch. I have no rust problems here in S. Florida.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

The Breach Plug on my TC has absolutley NO Daylight between it and the barrel. It is flush on all sides and wont even hang a silk stocking going over it. Aboout as perfect fit as you could get short of having a billett

Someone may have messed with your breachplug and cross threaded it going back in.

I would send it to Thompson Cent and have them rebuild it.

Get rid of that #11 nipple and replace it with a Musket Cap Nipple and use Musket Caps. Work much better during deer season when its 20 below zero and freesing rain.


Then. 100 grains of FF and a cotton patch with 50% Beeswax/50% Crisco on it and a soft lead roundball.


Have fun.

http://www.josephhaworth.com/images/Other%20Actors/Joseph%20Jefferson/Joseph%20Jefferson%20as%20Rip%20Van%20Winkle%20hol ding%20rifle-Photo-B&W-Resized.jpg

[Dean D.]

I may be mistaken but from what I can see in the photo this is a hooked breech rifle. The gap you see is where the hooked breech fits into the tang.

I see no safety issues firing this weapon, only a bit of poor craftsmanship installing the barrel/tang.

JMHO

[idahoron]

Dean, you are right. The breech plug is fine on this rifle. The gap is between the breech plug and tang. Ron

[405]

First thing I'd do is take it all apart and clean it up inside and out. When you pull the barrel wedge.... push and pull on the barrel to see how tight everything is. Then with the barrel out... unscrew the main tang screw and pull the tang out. Check the fit between the tang and the barrel (hooked breech fit)... may give an idea if there is a misfit between the two. NO the breech plug appears to have never been off the barrel- perfect seam.... they are put on very tight then dressed and will not go back on if removed without leaving a very visible seam. The barrel if original TC will be marked "TC Renegade" (it appears to be a TC barrel & drum). Unless special purpose or aftermarket they were 1:48 twist- good for both roundball and some conicals.

Looks like a barrel sight was removed? and a screw or something broken off or is that an indent for part of the sight? (Been a long time since I owned a Renegade) No big problem either way. Many sights will work including a tang mounted peep.
Unless the bore is trashed (sewer pipe), the gun should function and shoot fine with some TLC and study.

[northmn]

The breech plug is tight it is the fit of the hook up of the hooled breech. it should be safe to shoot, but possibly loose? May be nothing more than the fit of the barrel wedge. You also have a little corrosion from cap flash. Nothing major. I would personnally like to fill the screw hole with a screw but probably not critical. TC's liked about 50-70 grains of 3f for a target load with a 530 RB and 015 patch as a general starting point. Hunt with a heavier charge, about 90-110 of 2f for a 54. 777 can be harder to ignite but will work.

Northmn

[mooman76]

If I remember right 777 is stronger than regular BP and substitutes so you use less but read the can it will tell you. Also when usuing BP and subs you measure by volume. I hope we haven't confused you on this but it would be best to get someone that has loaded MLs with you the first time you go out.

[Odinbreaker]

Powders ok to use Pyrodex, American Pioneer powder, Tripple 7, and of course real black powder. I use from 80 to 100 gr in my 54. I have 3, 2 with 1x48 barrels an one with a 1x66. I use 530 RB and tc maxi balls which is a conical I cast all of them my self. Get an assortment if balls and conical and experiment. I usually swab with a alcohol patch than a dry patch every 3 shot.

[BowHunter252]

Thanks for all the input everyone. PM incoming to you jack19512.

The gun is actually in very good condition, even though it doesn't look like it from that picture. The hole you see is one of 4 holes that were for scope rings. The original iron sights are still on there.

Hopefully I will be able to post some targets in a few days!

[twidget]

I have a TC Renegade in .54. I use .530 round balls and 80 to 120 grains of black powder. I've never used any of the BP substitutes. With Wonderlube on the patches I can shoot as much as I want without cleaning. Of course, I clean when done shooting. The lighter loads are much more pleasant to shoot. Save the heavy ones for sighting in or hunting.

[pietro]

FWIW, I've owned several patent breech T/C caplock/sidehammer rifles over the last 40 years, and my current .54 Renegade is the 2nd .54 Renegade I've owned.

The T/C threaded breech plugs are investment castings, as are the patent breech/tangs, and fitment can be problematic if either the inside of the patent breech recess or the outside of the breechblock plug hook has a crud buildup or a casting seam standing proud.
Even though your breechplug appears to be tight (and therfore, safe), the gap isn't either normal or desireable, and the hook/recess should be examined under direct light and/or magnification to resolve any fitment question there.
While not a safety issue, it can certainly be a cosmetic issue.

The .54 issue barrel can successfully use patched round balls, unpatched T/C Maxi-Balls or Maxi-Hunters(HP's), or even saboted .45 JSP/JHP pistol bullets.

BP substitute pellets can be hard to ignite, making loose powder a better choice in a sidehammer - AND the charge can be more easily adjusted for better accuracy (less) or better power (more).
If your powder load of choice blows the hammer back to half-cock, you have loaded waaay too strong/heavy a powder load, and should back it down immediately.

IIRC, if you install a T/C musket cap nipple in your Renegade, the interior end of the nipple will extend into the inside of the snail beside the patent breech and partially block flame travel until it's cut/filed off.

I've seasoned my T/C bores with Ox-Yoke Bore Butter, also lubing my boolits with the same, ever since it was first introduced - and rarely have to perform a deep cleaning on my BP rifles.
With the Bore Butter system, however, it's effectiveness is lost if "normal" cleaning methods or petroleum lubes are used.

.

[BowHunter252]

Well, I finally got out and shot a few times. Thanks again jack19512 for the boolits!

I only shot .530 round balls, and with the pillow ticking patches I had they seemed very hard to get started. I don't have a bullet started so maybe that was the problem. I had to use a flat head screwdriver and a wrench to beat it with:) I only shot maybe 3 like this and then switched to some cotton cleaning patches I had. They were much thinner than the pillow ticking and I could start them in the barrel with my thumb. Is this too loose of a fit? I was getting maybe 3" groups at 35 yards sitting on the ground resting on my knees. Of course, I didn't have a powder measure, so I used my digital scale (I know you are supposed to measure by volume) and the batteries died about halfway through. So I just eyeballed it from then on. I was using 60 grains. I've got some Lee dippers, think I'll take them next time. I shot maybe 15 times total.

I was shooting at about 35 yards and it was shooting right about a foot. I had to move the rear sight to the left about 1/8". Could this be because of the gap at the tang? Maybe the barrel is swinging to the right just a little during recoil?

I took the tang off to see how everything fit together. The tang had thick glue on it where it is screw on. I pulled the glue off to see what difference it made. With the glue off, the tang angled a little more downward and the gap was noticably smaller, but the wedge pin was very loose, no tension at all. I put some paper shims in place of the glue and now it is the same as it was, as far as I can tell.

Any suggestions?

[Maven]

BH252, Out of curiousity, which powder were you using, Triple 7, Pyrodex RS, Goex FFg (or FFFg)? However, I don't think that's the problem since your rifle is capable of much better accuracy than you're now getting. If you do everything right, you should be able to put 5 shots touching @ 50 yds. with open sights and a rest (front & rear). Several things come to mind:

1) You need to fix the tension on the wedge. This can be done by soldering a loop of shim brass inside the barrel tenon (where the wedge fits) or by hitting the center of the tenon with a cold chisel. The wedge should be tight enough so that you'll need to push it out with a block of wood or half of a sprung wooden clothes pin.

2) Buy a short starter ASAP. Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf are but 2 sources of these.

3) T/C bbls. are "spec'ed" for .014" - .016" patches and in your case, a .530" dia. RB. You can go to a fabric store with a micrometer in hand and measure the 100% cotton pillow ticking they have until you find that thickness or you can purchase ready-to-use patches of that thickness from Dixie.... or Track....

4) Are you certain that you didn't mix up the .530" and .535" RB's as a correctly fitted ball & patch should be that difficult to start?

5) Lastly, after hunting season, I'd give serious thought to sending the rifle back to Thompson/Center for service.

Hope this helps!

[405]

Many things going on here.

The BEST thing to do is get with someone who has some more-than-casual experience with muzzleloaders shooting roundballs, including proper cleaning techniques... someone versed only on modern inlines won't be of much help.

Also, there is something wacky with the tang fit. That can be corrected by someone experienced in glass bedding. That barrel should fit evenly and flat down into the stock's barrel channel. The tang should mount flush and flat against the back of the breech plug/drum when hooked in. The whole unit should then fit flat and flush into the stock. It's a fairly simple job to re-do the tang inletting and glass bed it into the stock to achieve that fit. After that is done the barrel wedge fit can be adjusted to snug the barrel into the stock- either by modifying the wedge or the barrel tenon.

[mooman76]

It is a common thing for the wedge pins to fit loose. That's a easy fix. Take your wedge pin an place it on something hard and flat like a heavy piece of steel. Hit it with a hammer to bend it. You don't have to use massive force and it shouldn't take much to bend it a little. Give it a wack and try it in the gun again. If it's still too lose just give it another wack until it fits tight enough for your liking.
As far as a measure goes you can use a piece of brass like 30.06, just fill it and weigh it and you have something to take with you in the field. If you have several diffrent sizes you will have some different weights or combos to weigh different charges in the field until you get an adjustable one.
As far as sitting on your knees, that's not the best possition to have a stable shot. The one thing about MLs is you really have to pay attention to your shoting skills and if yo do it will roll over into your shooting of other weapons. Because of the split second hesitation that ML's have compared to smokeless firearms any bad shooting habits you have will be magnified because of the delay.
You can make a starter real easy. Go to a craft store (or you might even have what you need at home now) and get a large wooden nob(about 2 1/2 " or so) and a piece of dowel rod that will be small enough to fit in your barrel and yet be strong enough. Drill the ball and glue a piece about 6" long in the nob. Round (concave)the end of the dowel to fit the ball. If you have the means I put a piece of brass casing over the end and rounded it to fit and that will make it stronger. If you want a short starter you can put a small piece of dowel (or brass)into the side of the nob. That's one of the great things about MLs. It can be done very cheap and gives you a chance to use your creative skills.

[jack19512]

Well, I finally got out and shot a few times. Thanks again jack19512 for the boolits!






You are welcome. Did you happen to try the Lee REAL boolits? I don't shoot the .530 balls, I use the .535 ones. I also shot some the other day with my Lyman GPR and mine does pretty good with them. I shoot from 60 yards normally but me personally there is no way I could ever put 5 shots touching at 50 yards. Sure wish I could though.

I can probably do about 4 inch group from 60 yards. But it is probably more my fault than anything. My eyesight is not what it use to be, that is why I have scopes mounted on just about everything I shoot much. I have found this makes a big difference with me any more. Also at least for me anyway my ML is one that I don't shoot that much and it is a very different animal than my centerfires or rimfires. Let me know how the REAL's do. I should add that I run a dry patch into the barrel after every shot when I am shooting for accuracy. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but that's what I do.

[shdwlkr]

Bowhunter
First no that gap isn't normal. I only have 7 TC's so I might be a little off but have been around them for better part of 40 years so I do have a little idea of what the fit should be.
Second in the 54 I use a .530 round ball and pillow ticking. I have shot triple 7, prodex, real black 2F and 3F in mine and have always been able to get on target.
Your wedge should fit with some tension, my new 50 caliber hawken didn't even when I replaced it with a new one so I just use some patching material to create my tension. and it shoots just fine.
I would make changes one at a time, first get some tension on that wedge, then pay attention to amount of powder you are using, if using something other then real black powder get some real black powder and see what happens, If you are using 2F try 3F or if using 3F try 2F. What type of caps are you using? I use mainly Magnum anymore but do have a good supply of regular caps that I use as a sort of control if something doesn't work right.
Make sure your sights are set right. What is the thickness of your pillow ticking mine is around .018, use a ball starter, I use bore butter all the time and like it
That gap you have makes me wonder what caused it and I would get that fixed first before changing anything else. Mine are so tight that they almost look like one piece of metal.
If you don't have a smith that is close or even if you do Call TC and tell them what you have and they will most likely want you to send it in to be checked, fixed or repaired.

[Maven]

BH 252, If you're not entirely put off by the problems you're having with the Renegade, you may want to buy or borrow a BP reloading book. www.amazon.com has several (new & used) written by Sam Fadala, which are worth reading.

[BowHunter252]

BH252, Out of curiousity, which powder were you using, Triple 7, Pyrodex RS, Goex FFg (or FFFg)? However, I don't think that's the problem since your rifle is capable of much better accuracy than you're now getting. If you do everything right, you should be able to put 5 shots touching @ 50 yds. with open sights and a rest (front & rear). Several things come to mind:

1) You need to fix the tension on the wedge. This can be done by soldering a loop of shim brass inside the barrel tenon (where the wedge fits) or by hitting the center of the tenon with a cold chisel. The wedge should be tight enough so that you'll need to push it out with a block of wood or half of a sprung wooden clothes pin.

2) Buy a short starter ASAP. Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf are but 2 sources of these.

3) T/C bbls. are "spec'ed" for .014" - .016" patches and in your case, a .530" dia. RB. You can go to a fabric store with a micrometer in hand and measure the 100% cotton pillow ticking they have until you find that thickness or you can purchase ready-to-use patches of that thickness from Dixie.... or Track....

4) Are you certain that you didn't mix up the .530" and .535" RB's as a correctly fitted ball & patch should be that difficult to start?

5) Lastly, after hunting season, I'd give serious thought to sending the rifle back to Thompson/Center for service.

Hope this helps!

I was using 777. I just did some measuring and the balls measureabout .531-.532, the pillow ticking patches that I bought were TC .018 patches, and the cotton cleaning patches were .013 - .014. These cotton patches were so much easier to seat than the pillow ticking, that I thought it might be too loose of a fit, but it looks like it might be about right. Of course the 2 cotton patches I found were totally shredded. I'm sure pillow ticking would work much better.


Many things going on here.

The BEST thing to do is get with someone who has some more-than-casual experience with muzzleloaders shooting roundballs, including proper cleaning techniques... someone versed only on modern inlines won't be of much help.

Also, there is something wacky with the tang fit. That can be corrected by someone experienced in glass bedding. That barrel should fit evenly and flat down into the stock's barrel channel. The tang should mount flush and flat against the back of the breech plug/drum when hooked in. The whole unit should then fit flat and flush into the stock. It's a fairly simple job to re-do the tang inletting and glass bed it into the stock to achieve that fit. After that is done the barrel wedge fit can be adjusted to snug the barrel into the stock- either by modifying the wedge or the barrel tenon.

When I take the tang out of the stock, I can press it tightly against the back of the barrel, so there is no gap. But I can pull straight back on it while it is hooked in and get a gap like the one pictured.

To fit it correctly, would it be a good idea to, say, super glue the tang tight to the barrel, then fit that assembly into the stock?



It is a common thing for the wedge pins to fit loose. That's a easy fix. Take your wedge pin an place it on something hard and flat like a heavy piece of steel. Hit it with a hammer to bend it. You don't have to use massive force and it shouldn't take much to bend it a little. Give it a wack and try it in the gun again. If it's still too lose just give it another wack until it fits tight enough for your liking.
As far as a measure goes you can use a piece of brass like 30.06, just fill it and weigh it and you have something to take with you in the field. If you have several diffrent sizes you will have some different weights or combos to weigh different charges in the field until you get an adjustable one.
As far as sitting on your knees, that's not the best possition to have a stable shot. The one thing about MLs is you really have to pay attention to your shoting skills and if yo do it will roll over into your shooting of other weapons. Because of the split second hesitation that ML's have compared to smokeless firearms any bad shooting habits you have will be magnified because of the delay.
You can make a starter real easy. Go to a craft store (or you might even have what you need at home now) and get a large wooden nob(about 2 1/2 " or so) and a piece of dowel rod that will be small enough to fit in your barrel and yet be strong enough. Drill the ball and glue a piece about 6" long in the nob. Round (concave)the end of the dowel to fit the ball. If you have the means I put a piece of brass casing over the end and rounded it to fit and that will make it stronger. If you want a short starter you can put a small piece of dowel (or brass)into the side of the nob. That's one of the great things about MLs. It can be done very cheap and gives you a chance to use your creative skills.

I think I will try that with the wedge pin. I know that shooting off my knees isn't the most accurate, I thought that I was getting acceptable accuracy for doing that and just eyeballing the powder charge after my scale batteries died.

And, I don't like the sights on that gun at all. The rear sight blade is low in the middle and gets thicker toward the edges. I prefer a straight sight blade with a notch in it.


You are welcome. Did you happen to try the Lee REAL boolits? I don't shoot the .530 balls, I use the .535 ones. I also shot some the other day with my Lyman GPR and mine does pretty good with them. I shoot from 60 yards normally but me personally there is no way I could ever put 5 shots touching at 50 yards. Sure wish I could though.

I can probably do about 4 inch group from 60 yards. But it is probably more my fault than anything. My eyesight is not what it use to be, that is why I have scopes mounted on just about everything I shoot much. I have found this makes a big difference with me any more. Also at least for me anyway my ML is one that I don't shoot that much and it is a very different animal than my centerfires or rimfires. Let me know how the REAL's do. I should add that I run a dry patch into the barrel after every shot when I am shooting for accuracy. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but that's what I do.

Nope, didn't try any REAL boolits, it was about dark when I got done. I will let you know how they do. Should I fill the grooves with lube or what?


Bowhunter
First no that gap isn't normal. I only have 7 TC's so I might be a little off but have been around them for better part of 40 years so I do have a little idea of what the fit should be.
Second in the 54 I use a .530 round ball and pillow ticking. I have shot triple 7, prodex, real black 2F and 3F in mine and have always been able to get on target.
Your wedge should fit with some tension, my new 50 caliber hawken didn't even when I replaced it with a new one so I just use some patching material to create my tension. and it shoots just fine.
I would make changes one at a time, first get some tension on that wedge, then pay attention to amount of powder you are using, if using something other then real black powder get some real black powder and see what happens, If you are using 2F try 3F or if using 3F try 2F. What type of caps are you using? I use mainly Magnum anymore but do have a good supply of regular caps that I use as a sort of control if something doesn't work right.
Make sure your sights are set right. What is the thickness of your pillow ticking mine is around .018, use a ball starter, I use bore butter all the time and like it
That gap you have makes me wonder what caused it and I would get that fixed first before changing anything else. Mine are so tight that they almost look like one piece of metal.
If you don't have a smith that is close or even if you do Call TC and tell them what you have and they will most likely want you to send it in to be checked, fixed or repaired.

Thanks for the tips. My pillow ticking was .018 also, don't know why it was so hard to seat. I was using Winchester Magnum primers.


BH 252, If you're not entirely put off by the problems you're having with the Renegade, you may want to buy or borrow a BP reloading book. www.amazon.com has several (new & used) written by Sam Fadala, which are worth reading.

Not put off at all:) Not having too many problems, mainly just that I have to move the sight way to the left. I will shoot it off a better rest next time.

[Maven]

"My pillow ticking was .018" also, don't know why it was so hard to seat."

BH 252, .018" patch material (pillow ticking, denim, pocket drill) is what I now use most often, but I no longer own any T/C rifles. However, it was NOT what my T/C Cherokee (1:48 bbl.) and Hawken (1:48 bbl. +and .1:66 bbl.) preferred: .014" - .016" patching is what they shot best with [in factory bbls.]. By "best," I mean 5 shots touching @ 50 yds. from a rest using 60 grs. - 80 grs. Pyrodex RS (BP was hard to get in my area; still is). Ramming the ball home required only moderate effort too. The .018" patch + .440" RB would have been very difficult to start and seat.

If by some quirk of fate you have a Green Mtn. replacement bbl. on your Renegade, then .018" patching is what's needed. Hope this helps!

[405]

Quote "To fit it correctly, would it be a good idea to, say, super glue the tang tight to the barrel, then fit that assembly into the stock?"

bowhunter252, kind of...exactly right idea! There are several issues to get thru here and good to know you'll hang in there. Unless the bore is "a veritable sewer pipe" or the barrel is bent that gun should shoot roundball groups of 1" at 50 yds off a decent rest.

Think of the barrel and tang as one unit that needs to fit together. The major fit is an even, plumb rear thrust fit during recoil. If you have some patience and do-it-yourself skill you can get it to fit the stock correctly. I'd lightly tack the tang onto the barrel with some glue or even a little super glue. Place the unit into the stock and see where the misfit is in the tang area. Use something like a small dremel bit or small chisel to relieve any misfit in the wood. Then using a small dremel ball end bit roughen and lightly honeycomb the area of wood around the breech plug, tang and behind it. Get some glass bedding compound or in a pinch some JB Weld. Smooth any metal surface that would interfere with removing the unit once the compound sets up. Coat all the metal surfaces that will contact the epoxy compound with release agent or 2-3 liberal coats of JPW (wax). Be sure to get a good seal of the release agent along the seam between the plug and the tang . On the rear face where the hook from the breech goes thru the tang.... place some modeling clay or PlayDo so the compound won't ooze into that joint. Place a small plug of the clay into (or small piece of tape over) the tang screw hole in the tang and in the stock so compound won't ooze thru either hole. Some part of the area of the back face of the tang surrounding the hook should be left flat for recoil contact with the stock... that will also need release agent ..... that's part of the recoil surface.

Set the stock in some type of cradle....even a cardboard box with U slots will work. With a small flat stick, place compound in the roughened areas to be bedded.... that includes the area surrounding the breech plug/drum and the tang. Have a paper towel with some alcohol ready to wipe up drips and excess compound. Gently lay the barrel/tang unit into the stock. Gently press down until barrel is bottomed out in the barrel channel. With the alcohol and paper towel remove excess that has oozed up around the metal. As the compound sets up a flat stick or small putty knife can be used to trim "semi" set up compound. Use some judgement as to how much compound to place into the areas to be bedded. Too much and there will be stuff running, oozing up and out all over the place. Too little and may not fill all the inletted voids completely. If the barrel is a little muzzle heavy.... rubber bands can lightly hold the whole assembly together while it sets up.

Let set for overnight. Use a wooden block to gingerly tap barrel unit out of stock. Tap or knock the glue bond loose and remove the tang from the barrel. Clean off any excess glue, modeling clay, tape and release agent. Sand any uneven compound from stock edges. Open up tang screw holes with drill if needed. Re-assemble and proceed to set/ bend or modify barrel wedge fit. Should require light pressure or light mallet tap only for snug fit.

Ready to shoot and work thru the loading, accuracy issues. :)

[mooman76]

You don't have to use "pillow ticking" for patch. That's what allot of people use because it is traditional and works. Any good cotton tight weave material will work and it shouldn't be a major task to drive it down the barrel. Some ticking is thinner also. I have used allot of different materials. An old dress shirt works well and I have even used flannel. Flannel isn't the best because it isn't that strong but it will work in a pinch and because it is spongy, it loads easy.

[Loudenboomer]

What has worked for us best in the T/C 54 is the .530 ball and .015 bore butter lubed patch. We've had mixed results with the various synthetic black subs. Stinkin FF Goex Black is the powder we keep going back too in our slow twist traditional rifles. We take a strip of cotton bed sheet and tear off a 2" square and clean between shots. You don't need to but a quick pass down the bore seems to keep things a bit more consistant. A pump of windex on the patch, sprinkle of water or my method just stick the CLEAN patch in your mouth before you make the quick jag swab.
Don't over load a patched ball. 90 gr. of FF is my perfered charge. Over loading can cause blown patches and accuracy suffers. Learn to read recovered patches and look for burn threw. This will tell you alot about thickness and density needed.
Happy shootin yer smoke pole :grin:

[BowHunter252]

Well, I got to shoot just a few times the other day. Probably only shot 6 or 7 times total. The REALs did good, and I may just start using them and not worry about a patch. I shot one 3 shot group at about 25 yards, and they were all touching. I'll take my chronograph out next time. Do you guys think 60 gr 777 is a powerful enough hunting load? I was shooting into a sand backstop and they mushroomed real nice. I will try to post some pics of the recovered boolits.

[Willbird]

I shot a bit of 777 in a 58 caliber rifled musket I had, using top hat musket caps it was fine if I loaded the gun the night before and hunted the next day, but if I hunted a second day on that load it would hangfire...so after each day of hunting I would fire the load in the barrel when I got home (I can shoot in my backyard) if you cannot shoot at home you can use one of the c02 devices to unload the charge.

If I were to want to hunt with 777 in another side lock, especially one using #11 caps I would use say 10 grains of real BP as a booster charge for the 777, this is a safe practice and hodgon recommends doing just that with flint locks.

Hogdon does show data for 777 and a patched round ball in a 54 caliber....

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

60 grains bulk measure may be a bit on the weak side because they only show 80.90,100, and 120 grain loadings.

NOTE: the loads shown are for bulk measure, IE do NOT use 80,90,100, or 120 grains of 777 by WEIGHT. 77 grains by weight of 777 is equal to 100 grains of BP bulk measure.

Download and read the data for yourself but all the conicals in 54 caliber seem to use either 100 or 120 grains of 777 bulk measure.

Bill

[stubshaft]

I have 2 Renegades in 54 cal and both have the 1 in 48 twist. Haven't found a decent RB load for them but they both LOVE the great plains boolit ahead of 95gr of Pyrodex. I have tried lso some of the sabots with 45cal boolits and they shot allright but not as accurate as the Great Plains.

[Tom W.]

Get an empty .410 shell to use as a powder measure. It will hold enough to make you happy, and can easily be cut down to a "favorite" charge, and if you loose it, it's no big deal.