9mm Hornady "Critical Defense Ammo"

[mastercast.com]

I have NO IDEA where this goes on this forum...please, someone put it where it will be read.

I read on another forum that 9mm "Critical Defense" ammo was experiencing "Failure To Fire"...I carry a Walther PPS 9X19 pistol loaded with that ammo(at least prior to today)....I went outside to the range, and shot all 15 of the rounds that I had been carrying with that pistol...ALL FIRED.(One 8 and one 7 round magazine)

I then went to the ammo locker, and took out the remaining 120 rounds of Hornady "Critical Defense" 9X19 ammo with the same 115 grain FTX bullets. I loaded them in the Walther Magazines, and attempted to fire them. I had 38 out of 120 rounds fail to fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I put those same 38 rounds that failed to fire in pistols of different manufacture...CZ, Browning, Glock, Colt, Kahr, Rorhbaugh, Springfield, etc.. They still would not fire, after repeated hits from all of those firiing pins from different pistols.

Hornady "Critical Defense" ammo is over $1.00 a shot(after taxes).......I would expect better from them for that price.


Mike

[Ricochet]

That's scary, especially given the name of it!

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

I believe I would be contacting Hornady and expressing my extreme unhappiness. That kind of failure rate is unacceptable in self defense ammunition. I would imagine they would like the rounds back for examination.

Regards,
Everett

[lwknight]

Eventually the anti-gun people will push lead free primers to a standard. The lead free primers could also be desighned to be self destructing after about a year. And already are less reliable than what has been on the market.
That way, the amount of ammo anyone has can be controlled.
Another reason to stock up.

This thought is worth what you paid for it. Money back guarantee.

[Storydude]

Eventually the anti-gun people will push lead free primers to a standard. The lead free primers could also be desighned to be self destructing after about a year. And already are less reliable than what has been on the market.
That way, the amount of ammo anyone has can be controlled.
Another reason to stock up.

This thought is worth what you paid for it. Money back guarantee.

Ummmm, no.

Chemicals just do not "go" inert after a set amount of time.

[GabbyM]

Your life is in the hands of a low cost bidder.

[thx997303]

Lowest bidder? Who's bidding? This isn't military ammo.

Anyway, ONE Failure to fire in self defense ammo is absolutely unacceptable.

[blaster]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwknight
Eventually the anti-gun people will push lead free primers to a standard. The lead free primers could also be desighned to be self destructing after about a year. And already are less reliable than what has been on the market.
That way, the amount of ammo anyone has can be controlled.
Another reason to stock up.

This thought is worth what you paid for it. Money back guarantee.

Ummmm, no.

Chemicals just do not "go" inert after a set amount of time.

Ummm, yes.

Chemicals can and do "go" inert after a period of time. Unless of course you can store them without the presence of any other atoms, high energy particles, gravitational energy, thermal energy, electromagnetic energy, mechanical energy, etc. (an impossible task here on earth). In the case of lead free pimers there are several ways that they can loose reactivity. Many contain Barium nitrate (or allied compounds) and zinc. Zinc can react with the oxygen present if the shell or chemically available thereby at least partially compromising its usefullness as a reducing agent. Mag tech claims a 10 year shelf life on their lead free ammunition http://www.magtechammunition.com/docs/MSDS2.pdf.

[thx997303]

And I suggest to everyone to NEVER buy lead free.

At least that way they wont want to manufacture them. Not profitable.

[Shiloh]

Your life is in the hands of a low cost bidder.

In this case it is not so low a cost. Something with the Hornady name on it should deliver 100% performance.

Shiloh

[Storydude]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwknight
Eventually the anti-gun people will push lead free primers to a standard. The lead free primers could also be desighned to be self destructing after about a year. And already are less reliable than what has been on the market.
That way, the amount of ammo anyone has can be controlled.
Another reason to stock up.

This thought is worth what you paid for it. Money back guarantee.

Ummmm, no.

Chemicals just do not "go" inert after a set amount of time.

Ummm, yes.

Chemicals can and do "go" inert after a period of time. Unless of course you can store them without the presence of any other atoms, high energy particles, gravitational energy, thermal energy, electromagnetic energy, mechanical energy, etc. (an impossible task here on earth). In the case of lead free pimers there are several ways that they can loose reactivity. Many contain Barium nitrate (or allied compounds) and zinc. Zinc can react with the oxygen present if the shell or chemically available thereby at least partially compromising its usefullness as a reducing agent. Mag tech claims a 10 year shelf life on their lead free ammunition http://www.magtechammunition.com/docs/MSDS2.pdf.

I can tell you with 100% assurity that the Primers I'm currently firing are older than me(35) and every one has gone BANG so far. These were received in an Estate sale 4 years ago, and stored under unknown conditions.

The Ammo makers themselves have said that "time sensitive" primers are unable to be made.

[mpmarty]

When I decided on a self defense cartridge (45 acp 3" barrel) I tried Hornady and Winchester along with a couple of others. The best performance over a chronograph was some stuff made by Taurus the pistol folks from Brazil. It has PMC nickle plated brass, Barnes solid copper flying ashtrays of 185 grains and some powder from Hodgdon along with WLP primers. The box even lists the components. Average is 950 fps out of 3" carry pistol and a bit over 1000 fps out of my 1911s and XD. Once chosen I laid in nearly a thousand rounds of this stuff and as I only shoot ten a month or less I'm good to go. I find it for sale once in a while on Cheaper than dirt and Sportsmans guide for less than fifteen bucks a box and will probably order some more just to play with it. In all I've fired about three hundred rounds of this stuff and never had a failure to go bang. The hornady and winchester just didn't make it past the chronograph tests.

[JSnover]

They tried green ammunition during the Clinton years (that was a big contributing factor to the first Great Primer Famine) and found out it wasn't worth it. The ammo was unreliable and it didn't last long on the shelf. Conspiracy theorists knew the Zionist Occupation Government was developing junk ammuntion for the masses and keeping the good stuff for the UN troops who would soon place the US under martial law.... or something like that. Anyway, even Al Gore eventually had to give up on the idea.

[blaster]

I can tell you with 100% assurity that the Primers I'm currently firing are older than me(35) and every one has gone BANG so far. These were received in an Estate sale 4 years ago, and stored under unknown conditions.

The Ammo makers themselves have said that "time sensitive" primers are unable to be made.

I'm not arguing that primers can't last a long long time. The point of the above comment was to demonstrate that the lead free are untested for true longevity. They have only been on the marked since the late 1990's. Given that yours are 35 years old they were made with compounds in use since circa 1830. I can however tell you with 100% assurity that no priming compound can last forever. Thus chemical degredation sensitive primers are always made. If you dont believe me keep some of those primers forever and test them.[smilie=l:

[lwknight]

Anything can be designed to go inert after a set time. Especially plastics. And certain types of plastics can be used as primers.

[lwknight]

Failure by design. Old primers may stay good for a hundred more years. I have ammo loaded myself in 1980 and its all still good. I have new Magtech and CCI primers that have FTFs in like 2 percent.
If your refrigerator is 20 years old, it may last another 20 years.
If you bought it in the last 10 years, prepare to buy a new one soon.
That my friend is by design.
Lead free primers are not old nough to know how long they last. Why do you think that all LEO agencies do not carry ammo that is over 1 year old? I mean not even stored in a controlled atmosphere.
If you have pre Y2K primers, cherish them. I have had no misfires with Remington primers made 2 years ago.

[mpmarty]

Buy all the Wolf primers you can get your hands on. They're made in Mother Russia with good old fashioned components.

[sheepdog]

This is why I use Corbon DPX.

[Ricochet]

Primers that are unreliable and will go bad after a while certainly can be made and have been. That's why we don't have mercury fulminate primers anymore, they deteriorate quite rapidly in warm and humid storage conditions. But designing them to predictably go bad after some set period of time would be very difficult, practically impossible considering the wide range of conditions they may be stored and used in.

[fredj338]

THis just reinforces the need to test your carry ammo, at least one full mag from each carry mag. Sure, anything can happen, bu that would certainly be a minimum before trusting your life to it.

[mike in co]

Eventually the anti-gun people will push lead free primers to a standard. The lead free primers could also be desighned to be self destructing after about a year. And already are less reliable than what has been on the market.
That way, the amount of ammo anyone has can be controlled.
Another reason to stock up.

This thought is worth what you paid for it. Money back guarantee.


how about some PROOF OF THIS STATEMENT!

shelf life limited primers is a hoax/mis-information that ags been a round for a while...with no truth.

[mike in co]

Anything can be designed to go inert after a set time. Especially plastics. And certain types of plastics can be used as primers.


joined in nov of this yr, 77 posts and,,,just made my ignore list...a new record.

mike in co

[lwknight]

Mike, do you want your money back?

[fredj338]

Failure by design. Old primers may stay good for a hundred more years. I have ammo loaded myself in 1980 and its all still good. I have new Magtech and CCI primers that have FTFs in like 2 percent.
If your refrigerator is 20 years old, it may last another 20 years.
If you bought it in the last 10 years, prepare to buy a new one soon.
That my friend is by design.
Lead free primers are not old nough to know how long they last. Why do you think that all LEO agencies do not carry ammo that is over 1 year old? I mean not even stored in a controlled atmosphere.
If you have pre Y2K primers, cherish them. I have had no misfires with Remington primers made 2 years ago.
I'ld have to see some proof of that. It is likely that lot of Hornady ammo has a problem. It's almost impossible to make a primer that has a shelf life & control that. First LEO that dies from an inert primer, his family is going to own that manuf. Time to take the tin foil hat off.:wink:

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I heard the same thing about the government, via the EPA, pushing all the bullet companies to introduce lead free jacketed bullets. And, pushing states to find an excuse, like an endangered species to outlaw the use of lead boolits, store-bought or homemade in certain parts of the state/country.

And we all KNOW that is hogwash, right? Right?

Next thing, some whacko here is going to post that the fedguv is going to require WW manufacturers to take the lead out of WW and replace it with zinc or even cast iron or steel.

Rich

[thx997303]

Thanks for the sarcasm.

BTW, it wasn't the fedgov that did that, it was california. Just so you know.

[RVNGHOST]

If what some of you are saying about ammo...then the manufactures are
are expermenting with our lives !

I am an old Cong Hunter( Vietnam Target Acquisition Specialist)r...and in
the 60s and early 70 used a lot of ammo made in WWII and For Korea.
(1954) NOT ONE SINGLE MISS-FIRE...EVER !


38 failures to fire out of less than two hundred rds ! That is criminal !

73s("Best Regards"morse code)
RVNGHOST

[ku4hx]

Call Hornady; they're good people. I buy a couple boxes of factory ammo every 5-7 years just to have "fresh" in the SD guns. But 99.999% of everything i shoot is my own. In my 40+ years of loading, I've had two failures to fire, both were caused by missing anvils in the primer. Frankly, I should have caught that.

At what factory costs, I'd have already been on the horn to Hornady.

[ku4hx]

Ummmm, no.

Chemicals just do not "go" inert after a set amount of time.

Oxidation can certainly render certain chemicals inert ... hydrogen for example and you get water. Sometimes the oxidation is very slow; sometimes it's very fast. So can other chemical reactions. All things in nature progress from a state of high energy to a state of lower energy. That's why things corrode and balls roll downhill. Sooner or later, the chemical energy dissipates, changes take place and the mix is inert.

[ku4hx]

Lowest bidder? Who's bidding? This isn't military ammo.

Anyway, ONE Failure to fire in self defense ammo is absolutely unacceptable.

Most business operate to achieve lowest cost and greatest revenue and profit. Hornady may in fact solicit bids from several sources on primers. Unless there is a sole source for primers, makers will attempt to provide a product at a lower cost than the competition.

If Hornady makes the primer cups, anvils and primer compound themselves, the raw materials to make them are supplied on a bid basis with the lowest bidder generally getting the contract now days.

[ku4hx]

In this case it is not so low a cost. Something with the Hornady name on it should deliver 100% performance.

Shiloh

You mean like Morton-Thiokol?

[BeeMan]

This topic was started a shade over 2 1/2 years ago and ended after 3 days. It had been inert until pulled up with a reply by a first time poster.

Did anyone else ever have trouble with the Hornady 9mm Critical Defense load?

As for Hornady standing behind their ammo, I was in their plant a year or two ago buying some 'seconds.' Someone came in complaining about Hornady 223 not functioning in their AR. They had purchased a case lot but brought in 1 box as an example. The Hornady person took the box, went to their indoor firing lane, and returned in a couple minutes with 20 still warm pieces of brass. After a friendly discussion where the guy admitted he might need to clean his gun, Hornady gave the guy a replacement box.

The whole idea of life limited primers has been covered in detail before.

[cwheel]

I've been reloading with centerfire primers from the early 50's and am almost out, they all worked fine. But, I did take my Ruger Old Army our yesterday. About a year ago I bought 4000 #11 caps ( CCI ) for it just to have on hand. Stored well in a 50 cal ammo can, away from heat and moisture. Just after the purchase, 100% reliable. Yesterday, about a year later, about 1/3 of them failed to fire first try. Later today will test the rest of the lot after I measure the nipples to make sure they are OK. Priming mix has never gone bad for me, but yesterday has me asking questions at this point. Wonder if they are still made the same, like my old center fire primers, or the new ones are made to expire and become unreliable ?? The testing begins ??
Chris

[cwheel]

Turns out the nipples on this ROA are all spot on measured with a depth mic, and a
1"mic. Not sure what to do now. But I guess this proves that there are bad lots of primers out there, centerfire or cap and ball. Ran the same test with some 30+ year old Remingtons and they worked 100%. Will contact CCI and ask what is up, see what they have to say.
Chris

[Coffeecup]

Most of the time I don't shoot enough percussion caps in the course of a year to matter. Lately though, I've been shooting an ROA a fair amount and using up old caps. No misfires--even with caps from '83--but no CCIs either. I did notice that the Dixie caps (pink plastic box) weren't as hot as they were back when I bought them.

I'd definitely suggest you contact CCI and see if this was a lot-specific problem, then please let us know.

[MikeS]

I have a ROA that I bought back in the 70's. When I bought it, I also bought 1000 #11 CCI caps, and after shooting maybe 24 shots thru it, I cleaned it, and put it away. I recently started shooting it again, but with real black powder, rather than the pyrodex I had originally shot in it, and using the CCI caps I bought in the 70's I've yet to have one failure. I bought a single tin of Remington #10 caps in case the old CCI's didn't work, and because I believe the ROA is designed to use #10's not #11's. I was surprised that it looks like the 2 different size caps look like they're the same size, and so now I'm more confused about what the differences are between #10's & #11's!