Settleling powder

[KCSO]

Rather than using a drop tube I have found that placing a charged case against the top of my vibratory tumbler for a 10 count will settle the powder better and more evenly than a 24" drop tube. I am not a long range shooter rarly shooting beyond 300 yards, but at that range on a good day these loads will go in under 8". In addition I don't crush as much powder with compression. Some day I want to try these loads on paper at 600 to 1000 and see how they hold up.

[SharpsShooter]

I believe it was Paul Matthews that wrote in one of his books about doing the same thing, but he settled the powder and then compressed it also. He reported higher velocity and said it sounded like a modern centerfire when it went off.

[Black Prince]

Wish I could use that technique but it plays bloody hell with duplex loads!!

[montana_charlie]

I have found that placing a charged case against the top of my vibratory tumbler for a 10 count will settle the powder...
While 'getting ready to' jump into BPCR, I considered both methods. I laid one of those vibrating engravers on a sponge pad and held cases against it for various periods. It seemed to work well, but I had no drop tube (at the time) to compare against.
The engraver's vibration speed is adjustable.
CM

[kodiak1]

I have read others doing this, I haven't but am tempted to try so far I have been using a drop tube 40" long works good but I really haven't been doing this that long to know any difference.
Thanks Ken.

[Howdy Doody]

That is a good tip KCSO. Another thing that works pretty well is a fish tank pump attached to a Dillon. Helps keep from bridging and makes for real accurate loads when loading BP.



:castmine:

[McLintock]

There's a pretty good discussion of this topic right now over on bpcr.net; lot of different thoughts and ways of doing it (compressing powder). No ones hostile yet, so you can just read it, maybe learn something from it and then do what you like.
McLintock

[Bigjohn]

I've been loading 45-70 now and have just change to a Lyman drop tube. The previous tube was a length of copper pipe (plumbers type) approx 40" long. I immediately noticed a difference in the settling of the charge between the 40" and the 24". As I also compress my charges they now require extra effort to compress for seating of the projectile. There has also appears to be an effect on the grouping of the shots on the target.

It looks like I will need some time and a batch of cartridges to do some further testing. eg what effects each change has on the accuracy.

John

[KCSO]

I did a little test last night and loaded up two batched of ammo. The first batch was drop tubed into RP cases with 68 grs of Elephant FFg and a thin cardboard wad seated. the second batch were settled with 5 seconds on the vibrator. and the wad seated. On average the vibrated wad was 15 thou lower in the case and required that much less compression. I will shoot them side by side this weekend and see about accuracy and group.

[Black Prince]

KCSO

Do you suspect that when you viberate the powder charge that the fines end up on the bottom near the primer flash hole? And if they do, what effect will that have, if any, on the ignition of the charge? Maybe if you had a clear tube, put the charge in it and viberated it, you could see if the fines were on the bottom. It will be interesting to see the velocity difference and/or accuravy difference, if any, in two charges that weigh the same, but having different methods of compressing the powder. I'm looking forward to your report.

[wills]

Has anyone done any experimentation regarding how much powder settleing is achieved with various lengths of drop tubes? Mine is 36” and I wonder if there would be any disadvantage to reducing it to 24”.

I understand at one time some people tried using an over primer wad to prevent powder from clogging the flash hole, but it was not found to be a significant improvement.

[Dale53]

I have a rather protected range and can quite often catch really good conditions when testing ammo.

When I was shooting BPCR Sil, I tried drop tubing with a 30" tube (slowly dribbling the powder into the case thru the tube) and also tried just dropping the powder (Goex and Swiss) into the case and using a compression die to end up with the same powder column height. There was NO difference in accuracy nor in SD. So, I just drop direct from the measure into the case and compress with a wad over the powder. The amount of compression depends on powder lot and brand (have gone as much as .350" with Goex and as little as .85" with Swiss). I use what shoots best. It takes MUCH less time to load than dibbling thru a drop tube.

Dale53

[44man]

Talking about fines in the powder. I always had to screen Goex and Pyrocrap. I would get a large amount of fines. Swiss seems to have almost none in the can so I don't bother with it.
When I shot competition with muzzle loaders I would notice a change in accuracy as I got near the bottom of the container. I was actually going from FF to FFF and at the bottom, FFFFG.
As for settleing, I don't think it matters what you do, just so you do the exact same thing for every case. Drop tube, vibrator or right from the measure. As long as the effect on the powder when compressing is exactly the same, everything will work. Where you get into trouble is when one case is settled way more then another before compressing.

[Black Prince]

Well now, by golly that makes sense thar 44 Feller.:drinks:

[DEVERS454]

I've been loading 45-70 now and have just change to a Lyman drop tube. The previous tube was a length of copper pipe (plumbers type) approx 40" long. I immediately noticed a difference in the settling of the charge between the 40" and the 24". As I also compress my charges they now require extra effort to compress for seating of the projectile. There has also appears to be an effect on the grouping of the shots on the target.

It looks like I will need some time and a batch of cartridges to do some further testing. eg what effects each change has on the accuracy.

John

Why the switch from a 40" to a 24"?

I use a 40" 1/4" copper tube drop setup and it works REALLY well.

I tried vibrating the cases, but, didn't see enough of a difference from the drop tube to bother.

Vibrating a drop'd charged case actually loosens it up, the opposite of what I have found.

Just my observation. I might very well be wrong (and full of sh*t).

[Bigjohn]

Why the switch from a 40" to a 24"?

I use a 40" 1/4" copper tube drop setup and it works REALLY well.

I tried vibrating the cases, but, didn't see enough of a difference from the drop tube to bother.

Vibrating a drop'd charged case actually loosens it up, the opposite of what I have found.

Just my observation. I might very well be wrong (and full of sh*t).

The change in droptube length was to make it easier to handle when pouring the powder. I do not have my setup completed for reloading the BPCR yet (A new reloading room is on the drawing board). The tube is not yet mounted and must be held in one hand while pouring the powder. It would be wiser to make up a frame to hold the tube and resume using the 40" copper tube.

I agree with your observation that vibrating the powder seems to loosen it up rather than settle it in the case.

But, hey, these are some of the trials of life, we live, try things and learn from our mistakes and the advice of others. Thank you for your input.

John.:-D :castmine:

[Rusty Hammer]

Got good results vibrating charged case with 3/8inch all- thread, about 4 seconds.

Very gentle, so it may help you duplex loaders, too.

After that experiment, I filed notches along the edge of the square stem on my old-timey adjustable powder measure. Handy, effective, settles 80 gr. of Pyrodex P about 3/16 inch or more in a 40-caliber case.

If you'd rather, try filing on a stick of brass key stock or extremely dense wood. Notch the corner, not the flat face. You can scribe a nice regular spacing by pressing a sharp, coarse file or all-thread against the corner of the square stem. Then give each mark about 5 strikes with a triangular needle file, get "all same-same," then deepen and shape notches with round or triangle file.

For 40 caliber, about 3/32 inch spacing with V-notches is OK. Try finer pitch on small cases. Try 1/8 inch or more with half-moon notches on Snider and Martini Henry size cases, for a deeper hit at each notch.

Give yourself about 2 to 4 inches of notches and play the case like a fiddle, and you'll see the powder column drop dramatically.

Once you decide on the routine, you can just barely start the card wad in the case neck to prevent spills when working in the wind.

Results? About 5 in 1.5 MOA at 100, 10 in 4 inches at 200, consistent hits on 30 -inch disk at 800 when wind and mirage were merciful. Using lightly thumb-seated paper patch bullets with flask-poured Pyrodex. Shooters more diligent about case lengths and conditions will probably do a bit better.

Good luck,

Rusty Hammer

[GregP42]

I did a little test last night and loaded up two batched of ammo. The first batch was drop tubed into RP cases with 68 grs of Elephant FFg and a thin cardboard wad seated. the second batch were settled with 5 seconds on the vibrator. and the wad seated. On average the vibrated wad was 15 thou lower in the case and required that much less compression. I will shoot them side by side this weekend and see about accuracy and group.

KCSO,

What were the results of this? Did you ever get time to test it out to see if there was anyything different about them?

Greg

[Boz330]

Has anyone done any experimentation regarding how much powder settleing is achieved with various lengths of drop tubes? Mine is 36” and I wonder if there would be any disadvantage to reducing it to 24”.

I understand at one time some people tried using an over primer wad to prevent powder from clogging the flash hole, but it was not found to be a significant improvement.

I use an over primer wad of newsprint and it definately makes a difference in group size. I'm shooting Swiss 2 F in a 40-65. Obviously YMMV.
The difference between Swiss and Goex is worth the extra bucks to me. Easier to clean, very consistant granulation, less fowling, and seems to be easier to develope loads with it. Then again maybe I was lucky the first couple times out with it.

Bob

[jodoak]

I have loaded for several years now and I use Goex FFg in a 45/70 cartridge. Yep Swiss is better from what I have seen from other shooters but I use Geox. I use a 24 inch drop tube and pour in 73.2 grains of the lot I have now. Each new lot will change the amount I use to get the best group. I pour each load over a 6 second period down the drop tube. then I place a wax carton wad and newspaper wad over the poured load and just seat them on top of the powder column. I then use a compression die to reach a compression measurement of .338 inches before bullet seating.

I seat the 520 grain bullet using a competition die to reduce bullet run-out. Cases are Winchester with Winchester Large Pistol Primers. At 200, 300, 385 and 500 meters I can shoot MOA when all the conditons are right.

I shoot BPCR Silhouette all season long and my rounds are very accurate. All it takes is a lot of testing time to find the right load for your gun.

[crossfireoops]

Complicate everything to the max

....that's the ticket,.....

"a lot of testing time to find the right load for your gun."

yawn,.....fart. ...belch,....dismiss,

lotta' time,.....that sounds like waiting in line,

Good Lord.

GTC

[jodoak]

So what is your answer???

[TNsailorman]

First of all, I do not consider myself an expert on the subject. Consider the following the rambling of an old man enjoying the memories of the past and still looking to learn from those who pass my way, encluding this forum. I tried a wide variety of little "tricks" in the mid to late 60's with black powder. I was loading for a .43 Spanish RB at the time as well as a handmade Hawken. Compressing loads, settling the charge by vibration, and using duplex loading with a 5 grain charge of smokeless over the primer hole. I even went so far as to screen my black with fine mesh wire screen of several sizes. I saved the powder by the mesh count to correspond with the accepted standard for the granulations of black for the day; Fg, FFG, FFFG, and FFFFg and "fines" beyond the FFFFG size. I came to several conclusions. The screening of the into different FG counts would show up in slightly improved accuracy on the target and more consistant velocities. And it did not matter whether you were screening FG or or FFFG, you would get some slightly larger or smaller granulations in a one pound can. I also found out that the "fines" made great priming powder for the flintlocks, if you got any kind of spark at all the charge went boom. It also seemed to ignite the main charge a little faster than the regular priming mixture of FFFFG used in the day. But that could have been more perception than actual fact. I didn't have a calibrated or precise enough timer to really establish whether this was true or not. The bottom line was that unless you were going to shoot competition and needed that little extra edge, it was not really worth the extra trouble. I went back to the regular ways of a small charge of 5 grains smokeless over the flash hole follow by the regular charge of black reduced by 7 grains. That is what I am still doing today. This is the experiences and memory of a fat ol man of more than 40+ years ago. Unfortunately I cleaned out a file cabinet several years ago and in the process destroyed a lot of data that I had collected over a long period of time, including a lot of correspondance with some of the ol time experts who were a lot older and wiser than I. A lot of that info would be priceless today as the people it came from bridged the time and distance of the late 1880's to the 1970's. They saw it all, from the blackpowder only era to the modern magnum craze. It's been a good ride and I enjoyed the time. Still do. James

[ben1025]

For quite a while I thought drop tubes were not very useful. So I thought I would do some testing. I do use a 24 inch drop tube. It settles the goex ffg .125. (45/70). I added 20 inch to the 24 and was some what surprised to still get .125. The goex ffg I'm using has very little fine. I should of weighted it but there wasn't much to weight. fffg has much more. I do use a compression tool. In all fairness I should say I don't dripple slowly. Maybe a second. I think I'll try my engraver. It vibrates fairly well. The vibration is adjustable.