Anyone tried this...

[Marlin Junky]

Has anyone ever sized just the bottom driving band on either Lyman 439186 or RCBS 43-370 with a .406-.410" sizer, gaschecked and sized the boolit using a .432-.433" sizing die and shot the results through a 444 (either a 336 or some kind of single shot)?

MJ

[beagle]

I GC'd and downsized a 439186 weighing 390+ grains and dropped 32.5 grains of Reloader 7 under it.

439186GC 390.8 grains Rel 7 32.5 1549 FPS 2" at 100 yards from my Marlin 95 .444.

It worked but I thought is was maybe a tad heavy for the .444./beagle

[Marlin Junky]

Beagle,

How did you GC the boolits? Did you partially run them into a 40-41 cal. sizer to reduce the trailing band? Where did the displaced boolit metal go? 439186 doesn't carry much lube to begin with and I want to drive them fast with a full load of 2200, 2230 or Ramshot X-Terminator. It appears from the weight of your boolits, you were casting them with Pb straight up. RCBS 43-370 might be better for this application but it's heavier, and the mold is more expensive. I can get at least 50 grains of these faster aforementioned ball powders into a .444 case and still have near .6" of neck... should do at least 1800 fps from a carbine.

MJ

[Lead melter]

I have sized the Lee 312-185-R to .315" on the gas check simply by inverting the boolit to go through the sizer base first. Adjusting the depth of the Lee sizing die allowed me to size just the check portion and leave the rest of the boolit in original size. I then used a dowel rod to tap the boolit back out of the die. If you can get your hands on a modified Lee die, you might give this a try.

As far as to where the displaced metal may go, I don't know about that. I have sized .457" down to .450" for muzzleloader use and have never seen a lead smear on the boolit. But then, sizing .007" is a far cry from what you want to do.

Good luck, hope this might help.

[44man]

I have to ask why would you want the check portion smaller then the boolit?

[Marlin Junky]

I have to ask why would you want the check portion smaller then the boolit?

The purpose of sizing the trailing band with a 40-41 caliber die would be to make a gascheck shank prior to checking with the .433" die. I'm sure it'll work with softer alloys but if the last grease groove gets closed up, 439186 will end up holding very little lube (probably not enough for 1800+ fps target practice). If I had all the components necessary to perform this little experiment, I'd go ahead with it; however, I need to acquire a mold and .406"-.410" dies for my Lyman 450. The recourse would be to order a 370 grain mold from MM.

MJ

[mroliver77]

Somebody on this site made a small tool to cut a gascheck shank on a pb boolit. Mebbe a year or so back there was a thread on it. Pat Marlin is making a gascheck tool to check pb boolits with a soda can check.
Jay

[beagle]

I sized the base band using several steps in a base first sizer.

Once it accepted the GC. I sized and lubbed in the biggest sizer I could use.

Then, I went down in two steps and finally finished at .429" in a nose first sizing die.

Along the process, I bumped the nose flat.

The displaced metal goes into the bullet body.

The resulting finished bullet is a tad elongated looking and the lube grooves do suffer in depth and it's a bullet I'd not be bragging about making but they do shoot. Seems like I made 40 at the time and they're labor and equipment intensitive.

As well as I recall, I ended up with about 8 different sizer dies made up in obscure diameters for two projects I was working on courtesy of my machinist buddy and his Sunnen grinder.

The other project was to size the base bands on heavy Lyman .45 bullets so that I could add GCs to them. I succeeded in GCing the 457122HP and it shot very well. Then, I learned that I could punch holes in the GCs, pour thru the hole and come up with better bulets in any .45 mould so I stopped that train of thought./beagle


Beagle,

How did you GC the boolits? Did you partially run them into a 40-41 cal. sizer to reduce the trailing band? Where did the displaced boolit metal go? 439186 doesn't carry much lube to begin with and I want to drive them fast with a full load of 2200, 2230 or Ramshot X-Terminator. It appears from the weight of your boolits, you were casting them with Pb straight up. RCBS 43-370 might be better for this application but it's heavier, and the mold is more expensive. I can get at least 50 grains of these faster aforementioned ball powders into a .444 case and still have near .6" of neck... should do at least 1800 fps from a carbine.

MJ

[44man]

OK, I see what is going on.

[leftiye]

Pouring through the gas check sounds good! I have envisioned chucking boolits in a collet to center quickly and accurately and turning the base band down slightly to accept a gas check (another approach).

[beagle]

I came up with a pointed spring loaded gizmo using an M die body and shank that punches a #10 hole in the very center of a GC from the bottom.

This leaves sharp shards around the hole inside the GC. I float these on the melt and after I have the mould up to casting temp, I use a pair of forcepts to place the perforated GC in the base portion of the mould. Close the sprue plate and cast through it. Since the GC is lighter (less dense than lead) it floats to the top before it hardens. Any ah sh_ts are recycled. The sprue plate cuts a smooth cut on the lead that come through the hole in the check and gives you a smooth base. The sharp metal shards are embedded in the lead when it hardens asuring that the GC is permanently bonded to the bullet for all practical purposes. Works pretty neat./beagle


Pouring through the gas check sounds good! I have envisioned chucking boolits in a collet to center quickly and accuractely and turning the base band down slightly to accept a gas check (another approach).

[Marlin Junky]

Pouring through the gas check sounds like a pain in the butt and then you've got to size the whole thing, gas check and all from .439" to .432" or .433".

Last night I took four 439186's which were given to me, chucked them lightly in my drill press and took the trailing bands down to roughly .415" with a coarse file. Flared 44 GC's went on the resulting bases easily and I was able to crimp them in place with my .433" die. The boolits were relatively soft and sized down to .433" without much effort. Unfortunately the resulting lube grooves were reduced in volume somewhat. Then I sized the boolits nose first at .426" to the point were the case mouth would intersect the fully seated boolits (my 444 has virtually no throat). Then I dropped 50 grains of AA2200 into my Remington cases and seated the 365 grain boolits to 2.73". This morning 3 out of four went into 1.25" at 50 yards with iron sights. The fourth one was a called flyer due to a flinch. At 2000+ fps in the little 444P, these rounds recoil a tad. I haven't miked the fired cases yet but they ejected nicely and the primers are well rounded... my WAG on pressure would be approximately 45K PSI... any more would probably be too much for extended use in the 336. This could lead to more work with the 444 and maybe even a couple more rifles in 444! Perhaps a 336 with a longer barrel and a bit more weight might be fun. I was thinking about a 444 barrel for the H-R but it would probably weigh less than the 444P and the resulting recoil would be unpleasant (to put it mildly).

I would also like to look into FreeChecking 44 PB designs to shoot at lower velocities... for example, 240-260 grain boolits at up to 1600-1700 fps.

MJ

[beagle]

I've been meaning to look at NEI's heavy .44s for the .444. Something in the 350-360 range.

For my tastes, messing with the 439s is too much work......./beagle

[Marlin Junky]

Beagle,

I've been giving your idea a bit more thought and was wondering if you've tried to open up the 44 checks a little bit so they fit snuggly in the trailing groove of your 439186 mold before pouring alloy. Actually I don't see otherwise how you would get the GC to center in the mold. I guess the biggest pain would be to punch the hole in the center of the GC but it sounds like you've got a neat little tool for doing that. All in all, I'm probably better off going with a custom mold but Midway has single cavity 439186's available for about 60 bucks. I'm not crazy about spending that much for a SC mold but the alternatives start at double that... and that's for Aluminum blocks.

MJ

[peter nap]

If I'm reading what you want to do correctly, this might work:

Gas Checking PB Cast Bullets
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,138868.msg1098544055.html#msg1098544055

[beagle]

I sized the base bands on the 439186s. The .45s I was pouring through the perforated hole.

Yeah, you could expand the GC and that would work just fine. It just drops down to the first lube groove band and when you pour through it, it "floats" up against the sprue plate. Putting them in heated is the key to get good filled out bullets.

I made a sharpened #10 screw and fitted it to a stem in an M die. I made a mandrel to fit the GC (slip fit) and drilled a hole in the center with the other end fitting into the hole in a RCBS shellholder. I used a washer to allow ejection of the perforated GC. That hits the M die body and eject the GC. That was the prototype. Now I have an old Herter's precision alignment seater modified that has a spring and ejects them automatically and retains the washer so that I don't have to scramble around on the floor hunting it all the time./beagle


Beagle,

I've been giving your idea a bit more thought and was wondering if you've tried to open up the 44 checks a little bit so they fit snuggly in the trailing groove of your 439186 mold before pouring alloy. Actually I don't see otherwise how you would get the GC to center in the mold. I guess the biggest pain would be to punch the hole in the center of the GC but it sounds like you've got a neat little tool for doing that. All in all, I'm probably better off going with a custom mold but Midway has single cavity 439186's available for about 60 bucks. I'm not crazy about spending that much for a SC mold but the alternatives start at double that... and that's for Aluminum blocks.

MJ

[lwknight]

I have a BB mold that is a pain to lube with my Lyman 450 because the lube piles up around the Bevel. So I put a gas check in the bottom and problem solved.
Now if I get carried away and press too hard against the stop I get a gas checked bullet.
What if you just force the gas check in the sized onto the bullet?

[Marlin Junky]

I have a BB mold that is a pain to lube with my Lyman 450 because the lube piles up around the Bevel. So I put a gas check in the bottom and problem solved.
Now if I get carried away and press too hard against the stop I get a gas checked bullet.
What if you just force the gas check in the sized onto the bullet?

The trailing band needs to be reduced somewhat. .410" to .415" is about right with clip-on WW metal and I have done this by turning 439186 in a drill press but that's way too much work for normal play time. That's why I was wondering what the last groove on 439186 would look like if the base band was reduced to .410" with a Lyman .410" 450 die. If I checked a .433" base band (cast of WW metal), I'd rip the handle right off my Lyman 450.

MJ

[HORNET]

You could just get the nose recut on a Lee C430-310 to add a little more weight. Might want to make sure your twist rate will stabilize something as long as you're looking at.
BTW, I think Frank deHaas said that muzzle energy peaked with a 330 grainer in the .444, heavier and you hit the pressure ceiling too fast, lighter and you couldn't get enought more velocity to compensate. Of course, that was a long time and several new powders ago. If I want heavy slugs, I get the .45-70....doesn't happen often.