What's the point of lube

[jcadwell]

Why lube at all at pistol velocities. Jacketed bullets don't use lube...

Does it help lubricate the lead, probably... Maybe. What about the rock hard lubes used by commercial casters? Does it actually do anything? Does lube prevent leading? With all these people claiming they get leading anyway even with certain lubes...

Would it be possible to just skip the lube for low power pistol loading (45ACP)...

[9.3X62AL]

Good question. Since I'm up this late (or, maybe EARLY) I'll take a stab at it.

I think "lube" does more than just "lubricate" the boolit going down the barrel. I relate the drive bands of the boolit to the rings on the piston in the cylinder of an engine--closely matched to the cylinder walls' dimensions to contain high-pressure propellant gases. In the engine, the motor oil--and in the boolit and barrel, the lube--help form the seal between the piston/boolit and cylinder/barrel to further prevent propellant gas leakage between the surfaces of the two. It works as a seal, in addition to being a bearing surface lubricant.

In the case of the alloy boolit and barrel, leakage of propellant gas past the boolit not only wastes energy and reduces velocity--but also (per the late Walt Melander of NEI Handtools) erodes the boolit sidewall as the hot high pressure gas blows past the boolit, acting like a cutting torch--blowing vaporized boolit metal ahead of the boolit--both plating the bore to help form lead deposits and causing imbalance and distortion to the boolit's sidewall. None of this assists accuracy. This explanation by Mr. Melander made sense to me, and is consistent with the mantra of well-fitted boolits giving the best service and least leading potential.

Relating back to the piston engine example--if there's cylinder wall taper internally--or the rings are worn and no longer fit closely to the cylinder walls--no amount of oil or increased viscosity of oil will return the "loose" engine to its former power level. The piston rings--and the boolit drive bands--gotta fit to do good work, and the lubricant in either case is the smaller but essential part of the equation that ensures continued and consistent service.

The gilding metal bullet jackets are far more able to resist the erosive effects of blow-by powder gases, but velocity will still be compromised--so good bullet fit pays dividends here too. And gilding metal DOES foul barrels, as I'm sure you've seen. In "Hatcher's Notebook", the author documents the use of greases on bullet tips in the 1920's to address the issue of jacket fouling in 1903-series National Match rifles. This wasn't an altogether successful counter-measure, from what Gen. Hatcher related.

I've never tried firing unlubricated cast or swaged boolits in my firearms. Lead deposits are such a PITA to remove, I'm always at the other end of that spectrum--doing my best to PREVENT such occurrences--that to try unlubed boolits would be very counter-intuitive to me. I'm not sure how good the candle-wax commercial lubes are, but I do know that the softer Lyman Ideal and Javelina lubes I use in combination with well-fit boolits DO NOT leave lead deposits. The commercial boolits that fit well don't lead my barrels, either--but the "loose" critters sure as hell do--so we're left with the chicken-or-egg question of "Was it the fit, or the lube?" I vote for fit, since the store-bought boolits that did fit--didn't lead up my barrels.

Bottom line--I do believe that lubrication is necessary, but that good fit is far more important than lube characteristics until you really start pushing the velocity envelope past 1800 FPS or so. Good barrels are no small part of the "good fit" equation, I should add.

[Shuz]

Very well said,Al. That otta be a "stickey"

[sundog]

Quite awhile back we all had a great discussion about the windward and lee side of rifling with respect to gas passing and lube interdiction - might even have been on the old Shooters Board. I don't remember all of it, but it was an interesting discourse on the part lube plays in sealing.

Here's another thing. If you lube a boolit before pushing it through a sizer which reduces it size the grease grooves resist deformation and the boolit lengthens. Hydraulics at work. Didn't Buckshot post some good pictures of this affect?

I've always felt that lube serves those two purpose, plus reverse fluxing. A bore properly treated with a good lube helps to resist accumulation of alloy deposits, as well as providing a slick surface on which the bearing surface of the boolit rides.

And there may be one more thing. A sticky lube could pick up debris and sling it off outside the bbl - check a good lube star on a crown sometime and look at the gook in it. This would mulitply the affect that a GC has some ability to squeegee to bbl. Just thinking out load, again. sundog

[44man]

You fellows have said it all! But my 2 cents says the lube you use has a great bearing on accuracy. You just have to experiment with more then one lube in any gun. Never get stuck on one until testing the rest.

[Carteach0]

Just to help....

I once tried unlubed WW cast .452 at around 850 FPS.

Leaded my .45 acp like crazy. One magazine was all it took
to end that experiment. Took 20 minutes with a Lewis Lead
remover to get it clean again.

[Leadmine]

I use the soft lube on handgun boolits. I can't imagine the hard lubes work. I dig boolits out of the backstop with complete hardlube still in the grooves. If they didn't have rifling on them, I would think they hadn't been shot. What good is a lube if it simply stays in the grooves of the bullet?

[redneckdan]

don't shoot un lubed boolits, you will get leading.

[oksmle]

NEI #72 - WW - Cast .313"- Not Sized - Hornady GC sized .313"- 23.0 grains Surplus 4895 - 1.6cc PSB - Remington 9 1/2 Primers - Compressed load - Lee factory crimp - NO LUBE - OAL 2.94".
Over 400 rounds loaded as above & fired in a #1 Mk III SMLE. Largest 10 shot group 3.652". Smallest group 1.945".
Clean-up is one dry swab thorugh the bore & wipe down exterior of rifle. No leading experienced to date.

oksmle

[fecmech]

I use the soft lube on handgun boolits. I can't imagine the hard lubes work. I dig boolits out of the backstop with complete hardlube still in the grooves. If they didn't have rifling on them, I would think they hadn't been shot. What good is a lube if it simply stays in the grooves of the bullet?

Leadmine--I subscribe pretty much to the fit and piston ring theory myself and I use only hard lubes on pistol boolits. I used to use the NRA alox formula but gave it up for the less messy hard lubes. I have no quarrel with those that like the soft lubes but I see no problem with the lube being on the bullet in the berm. My only concern is accuracy and lack of leading, if those two goals are met, where the lube goes does not matter to me. The barrels on my revolvers are not cleaned for literally thousands of rounds, there is no need to. Despite what some would have you believe, hard lubes do work and very well I might add. Nick

[Leftoverdj]

Consider that dry powder lubes work, too, at least at .45 ACP velocities.

[357maximum]

what fecmech said is all I had to say....

[Mugs]

There's a good article on Lubricating Cast Bullets by Glen E. Fryxell at www.lasc.us.
Mugs

[Flash]

The term "lubricant" says it all. The lead will actually melt at pistol velocities due to the friction created while traveling up the barrel at the speed of sound. As Al pointed out, the oil in the cylinder walls of an engine( a little goes a long way) helps accomplish the same thing as a cast bullet lube does in a barrel. The jacketed bullets have a much higher melting temperature and do not need the lubricant for the prevention of metal deposit.

[Bass Ackward]

There is a gentleman named Norman Johnson that has published articals and pictures of shooting unlubed bullets in a 357 Magnum at 1300 fps and obtaining less than 2"groups at 25 yards with no leading. And I figure that oksmle (above) is going beyond that level.

I say this so we can see that debating about a how lube works is only important if it was a scientific fact applying to all conditions. Otherwise, its only a generality that increases your operating range with lead.

To me, why lube works is less important than finding out under what pressure conditions it works. Then you can have as wide a range (many options / chances) to make it work for you in your chosen pressure / velocity range.

[felix]

BA, I surmise that Norman has a gun and load combo that is just about perfect in all respects. Possible, but what's the probablility! ... felix

[oksmle]

1. Lyman #427098 - WW - 205.0 grains - Cast .428" - Not sized - 7.0 grains Unique - 1.0cc COW - Compressed Load - No Lube - Rem. 2 1/2 primers - OAL 1.57".

2. Lyman #429434 - WW - 220.0 grains - Cast .4285" - Not sized - No Gas Check - 7.0 grains Unique - 1.0cc COW - Compressed Load - No Lube - Rem. 2 1/2 primers - OAL 1.58".

3. Lyman #427666 - WW - 209.0 grains - Cast .4285" - Not Sized - 6.0 grains Unique - 1.3cc COW - Compressed Load - No Lube - Rem. 2 1/2 Primers - OAL 1.52"- 725 fps chronographed.

4. These loads were worked up in a SAA Colt with 7 1/2" barrel in .44/40 Win. Load #3 is the most accurate in both my revolver & my '92 Winchester carbine. I have fired well over 1000 rounds of these three loads since I first developed them back in 1999, & have had no leading at all. Loads #1 & #3 have won several times in our Military Revolver matches. I haven't tried them in my .44 Spec. revolver or my .44 Mag yet, but they should work just fine if the bullets fit the guns. I also worked up a "no lube" COW load with #429434 strictly for the carbine that chronographed at 1575 fps & harvested three Michigan deer several years ago.

oksmle

[Bucks Owin]

Just to help....

I once tried unlubed WW cast .452 at around 850 FPS.

Leaded my .45 acp like crazy. One magazine was all it took
to end that experiment. Took 20 minutes with a Lewis Lead
remover to get it clean again.

Only 20 minutes? :-D

Dennis

(Took me more than an hour with some .357 lino loads I tried one time...) [smilie=1:

[ammohead]

I have heard of people running diesel in a corvette with no problems too. Most of us just use gasoline.

Successfully shooting nonlubed cast bullets is obviously possible. Whether it be diligent load work or dumb luck. But statistically, and I am guessing here, I think that the average cast loader is far better off using lube, any lube, than no lube. Pushed farther, some lubes are going to work better with some loads than other lubes. Myself, I make one lube and use it on everything. It's a Felix variant using Makers Mark whiskey wax as the carnuba ingredient. I can't imagine loading bullets without that nice burnt orange lube in it's grooves. And I surely love that shine the carnuba gives the bore.

If you don't have a lube/sizer yet go ahead and load some without lube. But the sizer is where you will get the fit that Al was talking about. And while the bullet is in there, you might as well lube it.

ammohead

[felix]

Oksmle, I like your choice of lube! I've used grits for years with success, but I got tired of chasing various velocities at various ambients. This should not be a major problem nowadays because of the newer powder formulations. That said, I still think I would prefer "normal" lube in the "normal" grooves, and most especially for max loads. ... felix

[jcadwell]

It sounds like both are possible, lubed and non. I was just curious. Some people go to wild lengths to lube everything in sight, while others just rinse bullets in thinned alox. I usually go with a thick lee alox coat on my pistol bullets, but it smokes like a hippee. Sure shoots accurately and cleanly through the barrel. I'm sure there is a threshold of pressure and hardness that makes it possible to run lead without lube. Just curious where it is.

Thanks for the replies.

[BAGTIC]

I tumble mine in a mayonaise jar with a dab of paste floor wax. It is dry, doesn't collect lint (at least at hangun velocities), and does not lead.

[Old Jim]

I asked a mold maker that we all know about lube on cast bullets and his theory is that the lube acts as an "O" ring, sealing the barrel to escaping propellant gases. The lube must be soft enough to upset enough to seal the barrel. Other than that, use what turns you on.
I know that Jim Taylor ran some experiments using Butch Wax (hair wax for flat top haircuts) dipped bullets. They shot fine with no leading at pistol speeds.
He also used bullets dipped in 30 weight oil with the same results.