Savage 340?

[LIMPINGJ]

Is anyone up on the price of these? I was offered one for $295. It is the 340V in .225 Win. No scope but it has a Williams receiver sight on it. The rifle looks about 95% condition mostly from a few compressions on the stock. Thanks for any help you can offer. If this price is decent I may get it if for nothing else but trading material.

[HeavyMetal]

The 225 chambering is the hardest to come buy in the 340.

The price quoted is fair and, if this was in Calif. I'd snap it up in a hot minute to go with the 22 Hornet, 222 and 30-30 340's I already own!

[oksmle]

About a month ago I had my Springfield 840 (cheap version of the Sav. 340) carbine at our local range. It has an ancient 2 1/2 x scope & I had just finished placing 10 rounds of 200 gr cast boolits (deer loads) into a group that was a tad smaller than 1 1/2 inch. This was witnessed by a shooter who then put up another target & put the remaining 5 rounds into a group that almost touched. The whole episode was witnessed by another shooter who offered to buy the rifle for $250.00, which I refused. This is in .30-30, & I understand that the .225 Win. is slightly more accurate....

[largom]

Buy it then tell me what you want in trade. In that caliber and in 95% condition [your estimate] the price will climb in the future.

Larry

[LIMPINGJ]

I looked on the auction sites and some were asking $400.00 plus, I just wondered what anyone had seen one realy sell for.

[MGySgt]

I just bought a 325 in 30/30 - going to shoot cast through it. Barrel looks real good, paid 250, thought it was a good deal.

[bubba.50]

not sayin' they're worth it but, that's what they go for. 225 is either a sweetheart or the very devil, depending on who ya ask. for what it's worth, bubba.

[Bullshop]

To my understanding the 225 win is simply a 220 swift short. Same semi rim case just shorter. The 220 swift got a bad rep for eating up barrels and weird pressure spikes.
Those things can happen depending on how hot one loads and how well the brass is maintained (thick necks). Same can be said though for any super hot 22 even the 225 win. Anyway I think win was looking for more market share of the 22/250rem was enjoying and trying to distance themselves from the negatives of the 220 swift.
Too little too late as the 225 about died while the 22/250 still rides the wave.
Strangely as we came to understand the problems with the swift it has made a comeback and is far more popular than the cartridge designed to replace it, the 225.
The 225 is a good cartridge and about the equal of the 22/250. The fly in the ointment for the 225 is that blasted semi rimmed case.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[HeavyMetal]

Bullshop is correct the 22-250 is what killed the .225 Win.

However poor marketing and poor marketing statagy didn't help either.

Winchester was hoping the .225 would be the "replacement" for the 22.250 which had been a wildcat up until the same year the .225 was introduced.

Remington made the 22-250 a factory cartridge the same year that Win introduced the .225. Remington also had a selection of rifles for the "new" cartridge where Win only offer the Model 52 (?) which was much more high dollar in .225.

Needless to say Remington got the market share in the varmint arena.

Savage, a much smarter company in those days, realized the .225 might take off and that with minimal alterations to the 340, 30-30 and .225 use the same bolt and Mag I believe, Savage could field a "varmint" rifle for almost no increase in cost!

I have seen a dozen or so .225 caliber 340's for sale on different sites and auctions. I have never seen one in person. I don't believe I 've ever seen a .225 Winchester for sale.

Strangely I have seen several Martini rifles converted to .225 Win, the big blessing of that semi rim, and it still has a small following around the country.

As I said good price and I hope to some day find a 340 in 225 if for no other reason than to say I have one.

[stephen perry]

This is interesting in that my smith back in 1981 became the first BR shooter to agg at 100 yd under .2. His name was Harvey Miller and his .1629 agg using his 6 MCR held for many years.

His cartridges named the 22 and 6 MCR named after his smithing business were based on either the .225 Win or 30-30 whichever he got the best brass at athat time. The web diameter is the same on .225 and 30-30-30 Win allowing Harvey to make his BR cases on either. In BR terms best brass are the ones with best runnout. Back Remingron, Winchester, and Federal were all that most could attain allot of sorting went on. Weighing cases didn't prove much but neck and body taper tolerences counted. I know I have been there since 1972.

The .225 was not a shortened .220 Swift. The .225 Win is a semi-rimmed case of newer design and manufucture. The .220 Swift is a rimless case with an extraction groove.

Good info and case drawings can be found in Speer 11 and probably most reloading manuals.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[Bullshop]

My mistake, I stand corrected.
I thought the 220 swift was also a semi rimmed case origonating from the 6mm Lee Navy case.

[StarMetal]

My mistake, I stand corrected.
I thought the 220 swift was also a semi rimmed case origonating from the 6mm Lee Navy case.

Don't stand corrected Dan because you are correct. The Swift is far from rimless, look here:

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd220swift.jpg

Joe

[stephen perry]

Star
If you have the schematic for the .225 Win show it. Then you will see that the .225 Win is not a sized down .220 Swift. Need to show all sides in this kind of discussion.

Star, a rimmed case like the .225 Win is different than a 30-06 a rimless case similar to a .220 Swift. All case heads .473 which many cases are like are the.220 Swift, 22-250, 243, 6 Rem, .257 R .270, .280, 30-06 are called rimless. Are you on the same page.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[Bullshop]

I thought if the rim is larger in diameter than the body then it is a rimed or in this case a semi rimed case. Same goes for the 32 acp, a semi rimed case for auto loaders.
From Joe's schematic I do see that the swift is indeed a semi rimed case with a rim diameter larger than the head diameter.
I believe on all cases derived from the 30/06 case the head and rim are the same diameter, rimless.
BIC/BS

[stephen perry]

Since most know .473 is a common head diameter on allot of CF cases in all these cases the body or web dimension is smaller than .473 most webs neasuring .470. The Swift with a .473 head size measures .445 still in the rimless case category.
The .225 head measures .473 web measures .422 big difference. The defining factor for a rimless cartridge is that headspacing is done on the shoulder. In the case of the .220 Swift headspacing is done on the shoulder. In rimmed catridges like the .225 Win, .303 B, and 30-30 headspacing is done on the rim.

This is such a miniscule subject I think we are done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[StarMetal]

Since most know .473 is a common head diameter on allot of CF cases in all these cases the body or web dimension is smaller than .473 most webs neasuring .470. The Swift with a .473 head size measures .445 still in the rimless case category.
The .225 head measures .473 web measures .422 big difference. The defining factor for a rimless cartridge is that headspacing is done on the shoulder. In the case of the .220 Swift headspacing is done on the shoulder. In rimmed catridges like the .225 Win, .303 B, and 30-30 headspacing is done on the rim.

This is such a miniscule subject I think we are done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

Bullshop is right Stephen. When the rim is larger then any part of the case body it's considered rimmed or semi-rimmed.

Here's the 225 Win:

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd225winchester.jpg

You will find that if the webs are smaller then the spec, so will the rims be. Americans make very few cartridge cases to the exact specs for them, unlike the European. If cases with .473 rims are called rimless, then they are incorrectly so.

Joe

[two dogs]

i do not know all the technical details but i got one for my 12th birthday 225 win.still got the original weaver 4 power on it.very deadly piece.

[Bullshop]

This brings up a question for me. Why is there a rim on the 32 auto? Headspace?
If the little 32 auto is like other auto's and headspaces on the mouth then why the tiny semi rim?
OK that brings up another question. When anybody designs a cartridge for varmints it has to be two things, fast and accurate. When win brought out the 225 why did they make it a rimmed case? It was not made for lever guns but for bolt actions. We all know that when loading for accuracy weather rimmed or rimless if its a bottle neck we headspace off the sholder for best accuracy and case life.
Did the guys at Win really HS off that rim or did they actually design it to HS off the sholder.
I still say the reason for the rim was to hold onto a little bit of the swift. From my very first encounter with the swift I have understood it to be a semi rimmed case. If I were to search I am fairly sure I will find that in print.
I see no other reason for it on the 225 in a cartridge that was to be fast, accurate, and came out in a bolt action rifle. I dont know that I have ever seen a factory single shot or traditional lever gun factory chamberd for the 225 but I have seen many factory bolt actions for it.
Just things I wonder about.
BIC/BS
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

This brings up a question for me. Why is there a rim on the 32 auto? Headspace?
If the little 32 auto is like other auto's and headspaces on the mouth then why the tiny semi rim?
OK that brings up another question. When anybody designs a cartridge for varmints it has to be two things, fast and accurate. When win brought out the 225 why did they make it a rimmed case? It was not made for lever guns but for bolt actions. We all know that when loading for accuracy weather rimmed or rimless if its a bottle neck we headspace off the sholder for best accuracy and case life.
Did the guys at Win really HS off that rim or did they actually design it to HS off the sholder.
I still say the reason for the rim was to hold onto a little bit of the swift. From my very first encounter with the swift I have understood it to be a semi rimmed case. If I were to search I am fairly sure I will find that in print.
I see no other reason for it on the 225 in a cartridge that was to be fast, accurate, and came out in a bolt action rifle. I dont know that I have ever seen a factory single shot or traditional lever gun factory chamberd for the 225 but I have seen many factory bolt actions for it.
Just things I wonder about.
BIC/BS
BIC/BS

I believe Browning designed the 32 acp to headspace off the rim. The rim isn't a full rim, it's a semi rim and the reason for a semi rim is it has less interference with other cartridges when stripping from a magazine.

The 225 Winchester was kind of designed after the 219 Zipper improved. Winchester was going after the 22-250 and didn't feel like they wanted to stick with the 220 Swift because of the bad reputation it built for burning barrels out fast. The rim was retained as it could be made to .473 and work off the common 30-06 bolt fast and it seemed to work fine fed from a box magazine.

Joe

[stephen perry]

You're last statement condemned you. The the .225 Win headspaces off of the case rim wheras the .220 Swift headspaces off the shoulder. The .225 came out the same year the .220 Swift was released. The 22-250 was not designed to be the Swift competitor as the .225 was not either. The .225 merely replaced the Swift. The 22-250 came out from customer demands and to standardize all the 22-250 wildcats into one cartridge. You make allot of assumptions which books you been reading. Let's end this on a friendly note. Who's right or who's wrong makes no difference, there is a bit of truth in all the info given.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR [smilie=6:

[StarMetal]

You're last statement condemned you. The the .225 Win headspaces off of the case rim wheras the .220 Swift headspaces off the shoulder. The .225 came out the same year the .220 Swift was released. The 22-250 was not designed to be the Swift competitor as the .225 was not either. The .225 merely replaced the Swift. The 22-250 came out from customer demands and to standardize all the 22-250 wildcats into one cartridge. You make allot of assumptions which books you been reading. Let's end this on a friendly note. Who's right or who's wrong makes no difference, there is a bit of truth in all the info given.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR [smilie=6:

I don't think so Steve. I never said what the 225 head spaces off of, but I can say this...anyone that head spaces a bottle necked rimmed cartridge off the rim doesn't know how to reload. Yes there are some instances where one has to make sure the ammo fits the chamber easy.

Oh, you're the only one that thinks we're fighting or playing a point game. What books do I read? Hmmm, read lots of books, but most my knowledge about guns and ammo comes from hands on. Can't believe everything you read pardner.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Nothing but friendly here!!! Just learning and having fun. No offence meant to anyone.
If I had an idea that was maybe a little bit dull on the edges this conversation is maybe making it a little sharper.
I really am curious though. I wonder what we would find out if we specked out some factory 225 ammo. What I mean is would we find that the rim to shoulder is a closer fit to the chamber than the case rim is to the rim cut in the chamber.
In other words if held muzzle down and a factory round dropped in the chamber what stops the case the rim or the shoulder?
I know Stephen your going to say the rim because that's what the book says. I just wonder if they go by their own book. You know they are always telling us things that aren't necessarily so because we are not clever enough to figure things out.
I just cant see them believing the cartridge would be accurate enough to be successful if it was to depend on consistent rim thickness for accuracy.
Basically a belted case is also a rimmed case of sorts. Being so tell me do you HS off the belt or the shoulder when reloading belted cases?
What I have found is if you use the belt your brass is good for about three shots then separates. If on the other hand you HS off the shoulder case life is way much better.
Never having owned a 225 I don't know but all I have read seem to say that they were nicely accurate rifles. I would suspect that if factory ammo was treated like a 30/30 which I am fairly sure factory ammo uses the rim and pays little attention to the shoulder then it would have gotten a reputation as being more mediocre like a 30/30.
All just speculation for sure and matters not one whit but I wonder.
Maybe that rim had something to do with Harvey Donaldsons 219. At the time before the 222 came out the 219 Donaldson was THE BR cartridge in the winners circle most often. Makes perfect sense to paint your new sweetheart to look like a winner.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Nothing but friendly here!!! Just learning and having fun. No offence meant to anyone.
If I had an idea that was maybe a little bit dull on the edges this conversation is maybe making it a little sharper.
I really am curious though. I wonder what we would find out if we specked out some factory 225 ammo. What I mean is would we find that the rim to shoulder is a closer fit to the chamber than the case rim is to the rim cut in the chamber.
In other words if held muzzle down and a factory round dropped in the chamber what stops the case the rim or the shoulder?
I know Stephen your going to say the rim because that's what the book says. I just wonder if they go by their own book. You know they are always telling us things that aren't necessarily so because we are not clever enough to figure things out.
I just cant see them believing the cartridge would be accurate enough to be successful if it was to depend on consistent rim thickness for accuracy.
Basically a belted case is also a rimmed case of sorts. Being so tell me do you HS off the belt or the shoulder when reloading belted cases?
What I have found is if you use the belt your brass is good for about three shots then separates. If on the other hand you HS off the shoulder case life is way much better.
Never having owned a 225 I don't know but all I have read seem to say that they were nicely accurate rifles. I would suspect that if factory ammo was treated like a 30/30 which I am fairly sure factory ammo uses the rim and pays little attention to the shoulder then it would have gotten a reputation as being more mediocre like a 30/30.
All just speculation for sure and matters not one whit but I wonder.
Maybe that rim had something to do with Harvey Donaldsons 219. At the time before the 222 came out the 219 Donaldson was THE BR cartridge in the winners circle most often. Makes perfect sense to paint your new sweetheart to look like a winner.
BIC/BS

Dan,

You bring up something I was thinking about. I believe most of us are familiar with the 30-40 Krag. It's rimmed and head spaces on that rim. The point I'm getting at is look at the bolt face. Hardly any recess in it at all. Same as the Mosin Nagant...another rimmed cartridge and the bolt is right up against that rim with little space between them...in both rifles described here. Having never owned a 225 Win and being when it came out Winchester went to the push feed and with other rimless cartridges the bolt face was quite recessed. What did the bolt face look like on the 225 Win model? Maybe Stephen can enlighten us.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Yes Joe I can see it for militarry use. Its very positive but maybe not best for accuracy.
A fast 22 has but one purpose to be accurate.
Build the fastest 22 in the world and if its not accurate its worthless.

[Bucks Owin]

Just my two centavos, but as I hear it, the "problem" with Swift barrels was that guys who loaded for them thought every round they fired had to be going 4,000+ fps! Hard on barrels and cases. Loaded to .22/250 velocity, barrel & case life would be similar I expect. Of course, might as well have a .22/250 then, right? The .225 Win? Wish I had a custom single shot in that fine caliber, I'll stick with the Swift in a M-70 thank you. Had a friend with a 340 Savage in 30/30. It shot ok, but was the ugliest rifle I've ever seen!...JMO, Dennis (Who would be using J word boolits in Swift and .225 rifles too, sorry. Why run at half throttle? For a cast shooter, maybe a Hornet would be more applicable...)

[STP22]

LIMPIGJ,

I bought 340V in 225 Win. from a young fella at our local show a couple of years ago for less than the one you mentioned. Picked up a set of dies and alot of brass shortly afterwards. Lastly, I borrowed a Hawkeye borescope and was mucho disappointed when I looked at the bore...it was terribly pitted from stem to stern.

I thought it at least deserved a try, so I loaded a bit away from published max loads in three older manuals knowing that this caliber in the 340 didn`t last but a short time. Probably due to the weakness of the action design and the fact that the .22-250 was "standardized" shortly afterwards. I have wondered how many were returned with the resultant pressure issues associated with the split bridge action. Probably quite a few!

In the end, it was no surprise that it did not group at 100yds worth a hoot:cry:

[rickster]

I have a 340 in 225W that I spent a fair amount of time working with. And I once wore out a 220 Swift barrel (Ruger #1). And I have a couple of 22-250s. So FWIW, here is my take. It will be a bit rambling, kind of like the rest of this thread.

The weak link in the 225W design is that the 30-30 is the parent case (with the rim reduced). This case was designed for lower pressures than is needed to compete with the 22-250 or the Swift. Cut the cases lengthwise and you will see the difference. I forget the measurements off hand, but the web of a 22-250 is a lot thicker than the 225W. Now, a lot of people claim the problem is that the 340 action is weak or flexes or some such. Not so. Granted, it only has one locking lug, but I have loaded it to 3700fps with a 55gr bullet with no ill effect. But to do that, the case had to be resized to fit tight in the chamber. That is, headspacing firmly on the shoulder. Otherwise case head separations occur after only a few loads (because the case web is thin). IIRC, there was another problem, maybe the way they were throated. I had a heck of a time getting accuracy comparable to a 220 or 22-250. I did finally work up a decent load using Benchmark. I am on the road so I don't have the details off hand. But it proved to be quite accurate in the field. The 340s are ugly, especially with a side scope mount (which is the only mount that can be used. But they balance and handle very well, even with scope mounted. Better than any other bolt action IMO. They are an excellent field gun. Oh, there is another problem. The mag wont feed right. This seems to be a common complaint with the 30-30s and 225s (They use the same mag). Usually, someone decides to tweak them and after that it is hopeless. But you can still get new ones. Anyway, my 340s in 30-30 and 22 Hornet feed fine, but I never did get the 225 to feed right. And since I mentioned the 22H, I would like to say that it is more accurate than my other Hornets (Sako 78, Ruger #3 and Ruger 77/22H). The chamber is a bit tighter. When I bought the 340/22H it had a 3/4in Weaver scope that was so dirty I could hardly see through it. Just to get some idea of whether it was worthy of a better scope, I tried some ctgs that I had worked up a decade previous for the Sako. Believe it or not that rascal printed 3/4in 100yd groups, which was better than the 1 to 1.25in that the Sako would do. Needless to say, it now has a better scope (but doesnt shoot any better).

[StarMetal]

I have a 340 in 225W that I spent a fair amount of time working with. And I once wore out a 220 Swift barrel (Ruger #1). And I have a couple of 22-250s. So FWIW, here is my take. It will be a bit rambling, kind of like the rest of this thread.

The weak link in the 225W design is that the 30-30 is the parent case (with the rim reduced). This case was designed for lower pressures than is needed to compete with the 22-250 or the Swift. Cut the cases lengthwise and you will see the difference. I forget the measurements off hand, but the web of a 22-250 is a lot thicker than the 225W. Now, a lot of people claim the problem is that the 340 action is weak or flexes or some such. Not so. Granted, it only has one locking lug, but I have loaded it to 3700fps with a 55gr bullet with no ill effect. But to do that, the case had to be resized to fit tight in the chamber. That is, headspacing firmly on the shoulder. Otherwise case head separations occur after only a few loads (because the case web is thin). IIRC, there was another problem, maybe the way they were throated. I had a heck of a time getting accuracy comparable to a 220 or 22-250. I did finally work up a decent load using Benchmark. I am on the road so I don't have the details off hand. But it proved to be quite accurate in the field. The 340s are ugly, especially with a side scope mount (which is the only mount that can be used. But they balance and handle very well, even with scope mounted. Better than any other bolt action IMO. They are an excellent field gun. Oh, there is another problem. The mag wont feed right. This seems to be a common complaint with the 30-30s and 225s (They use the same mag). Usually, someone decides to tweak them and after that it is hopeless. But you can still get new ones. Anyway, my 340s in 30-30 and 22 Hornet feed fine, but I never did get the 225 to feed right. And since I mentioned the 22H, I would like to say that it is more accurate than my other Hornets (Sako 78, Ruger #3 and Ruger 77/22H). The chamber is a bit tighter. When I bought the 340/22H it had a 3/4in Weaver scope that was so dirty I could hardly see through it. Just to get some idea of whether it was worthy of a better scope, I tried some ctgs that I had worked up a decade previous for the Sako. Believe it or not that rascal printed 3/4in 100yd groups, which was better than the 1 to 1.25in that the Sako would do. Needless to say, it now has a better scope (but doesnt shoot any better).


You must have a bum Sako is all I can say. I have a CZ527 in 22 Hornet and it cuts a 3/8 inch five shot hole at 100 yards with the Hornady 45 grain A-Max with Win 296 powder. Your 340 in 22 Hornet shoots pretty decent.

Joe

[rickster]

Well, the Sako is no bum, or should I say, no Sako is a bum. But I was surprised that it wouldn't shoot better. That and the fact that the 78s are pretty darn rare, means it will probably spend the rest of its life in the dark corner of a safe.

Now, from everything I've read, I should sell all my 22Hs and buy a CZ. But I don't see Hornets as bench guns. Any of mine are accurate enough for the field. In those special circumstances that I need bench grade accuracy I drag out the triple deuce.