How accurate is a smooth bore rifle?

[44minimum]

Have any of you experimented with how accurate a smooth bore can be made? I don't mean and old percussion gun where the bullet rattles back and forth down the bore, I mean something more modern, something like a 357 or 45 without any rifling but using A tight fitting well made and uniform bullet and a good set of sites or a scope. I'm kinda curious as to what results could be had. And please don't tell me that a smooth bore without any rifling is not technically a rifle. I'm aware of that.

[lathesmith]

The late Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gun Works fame always asserted that a smooth-bore rifle firing a properly fitted round ball was almost as accurate as a rifled bore at ranges up to around 25 yards or so. It's past this where the smoothbore really starts to lose out, and by 75-100 yards the game's over for a smoothbore. Forget gettng any accuracy with conical projectiles in a smooth bore at any range, they will tumble due to instability(unless they are spun in the barrel like modern shotgun slugs).
lathesmith

[AZ-Stew]

The propellant and ignition type (cartridge and primer versus flint or cap lock) will make no difference. As lathesmith says, smoothbores were not fired with a ball that "rattled down the bore", they used a patched ball to seal the bore and to keep the ball from getting a lateral spin like that given to a baseball by the pitcher. A lateral spin will cause the flight of the ball to curve, just as does the baseball.

There was a show on History Channel that had a guy shooting a smoothbore musket at a sheet of plywood about 30 yards out that was painted to resemble a barn. The intent was to see if he could hit the proverbial "broad side of a barn" with it. He did, but the shots scattered all over the plywood, with one doing a John Deere (taking a divot out of the turf in front of the plywood (See, Mike? I do read your stuff [smilie=s:)) before hitting low. The effect of rifling was then demonstrated with a rifled flintlock, which shot an actual group.

This is the same effect you'll get with any unrifled firearm, even if the projectile closely fits the bore.

Regards,

Stew

[Ed Barrett]

Please, if it's a smooth bore, it isn't a rifle. complete oxymoron.

[Lead Fred]

Funny how the folks that shoot tradegun at rondies hit one inch targets at 50 yards.

They are smoothbore, no rear sight, and patched round ball.

http://www.thefurtrapper.com/trade_guns.htm

[waksupi]

Stew, the guy doing that shooting, obviously didn't know what he was doing. I wouldn't care to stand as target to anyone at 100 yards, and there are a few who would make me extremely nervous at 200 yards. We ding the 180 yard target on our range regularly with smoothbores.
A smooth rifle was an early American development, being a smoothbore built using rifle features, ie, patchbox, usually a sliding wood type, cheekpiece, rifle trigger guard, and possibly other minor features.
The modern battle tank barrels are smoothbore, but I believe they use a sabot. I don't know what effect this has on the accuracy. I suspect you would have fairly decent accuracy with a modern smoothbore chambering.

[longbow]

What waksupi said.

A properly fitted patched round ball can shoot quite well from smoothbore as can a bore size ball from a modern smoothbore shotgun. I can't claim to have done it with a patched ball from a smoothbore but I know people who do and here is some reading for you:

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

As for the smoothbore not being referred to as a rifle, apparenlty smooth "rifles" were fairly common in muzzleloader days. Here is a replica from Track of the Wolf:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(swhsbv3crfigjprrhoylsfrw))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=81&styleId=284&partNum=AAH-654

Not a fowler or musket but a smooth "rifle" having both front and rear sights.

And here is an original:

http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/descriptiondisplay.html?riflekentuckysmoothketland eaglebox

As for the modern smoothbore shotgun, I am generally getting 4" to 6" groups at 50 yards with a round ball. I am also working on various hollow base and attached wad slug designs as well with some successes and many failures but a well designed weight forward projectile like a Brenneke, AQ or Gualandi slug can be quite accurate to 100 yards. Best I have done from a smoothbore is 6 1/2" at 100 yards with AQ's.

Any elongated projectile without a weight forward design will not stabilize at all from a smoothbore. I suspect it would be keyholing by 25 yards.

Longbow

[JSnover]

The modern battle tank barrels are smoothbore, but I believe they use a sabot. I don't know what effect this has on the accuracy. I suspect you would have fairly decent accuracy with a modern smoothbore chambering.

I may be wrong but I believe the sabot allows a conventional tank barrel to fire unconventional projectiles. The sabot rounds often have stabilizing fins and a bulbous nose to contain the impact fuse and explosive charge. No need to make a special barrel when you can just 'patch them up' with a sabot.

[OldBob]

I have and have seen smoothbore shotguns do some pretty darn good shooting with both regular and sabot slugs....... my old Ithaca 37 slug gun will shoot into a teacup all day at 50 yds and is still doing deer-killin' good at 100.....if your shoulder can stand the pounding. This is with plain old off the shelf Remington slugs so I would think someone willing to experiment could improve that.

[AZ-Stew]

Hmmmm....

Not having worked with a smooth bore BP gun, I can't comment from personal experience. I only know what I saw on the show.

That said, yes, the Abrams tank barrel is a smooth bore and uses a projectile that has a bore riding disc, I believe at both ends, and it is a very long, thin "penetrator", shaped somewhat like a target arrow. It's fin stabilized and carries no explosive. It destroys its target due to its very high velocity and sectional density. It just passes through the target (enemy tank), blowing chunks of armor into the interior of the tank, killing all inside and frequently setting off the ammo stored inside. After a Yahoo search, I find that there are two types of ammo for the Abrams. The sabot and penetrator, and a H.E.A.T. (High Explosive Anti-Tank) round. See this video for a great explanation of both: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPgdFV19XpQ&feature=PlayList&p=B23472E6124A5D1B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10

Other smooth bores I'm familiar with are the 60 and 81mm mortars. These for sure use a fin-stabilized projectile. As long as you get the base plate set well so it doesn't move with each shot, the mortar can be VERY accurate. I was always amazed by their capabilities. We trained with them on muddy ground one February at Camp Pendleton and with each shot the base plate sank deeper into the ground. After ten rounds or so we would have to get a shovel and dig it up. It was near impossible to hit anything because the base plate moved with each shot.

But a round ball is far different from a fin-stabilized projectile. I'll leave it to the guys who have experience with them. If they say they shoot well, I won't argue.

Regards,

Stew

[sundog]

Stew, Roger that on the base plate in the mud. We had a wrap of chain around them so that we could 'hook on' with a grab hook and pop them out of the ground (muck) with either a gamma goat or a quarter ton. But then you had to move over and relay.

[Bert2368]

W.W. Greener claims very good accuracy out to 100 yards for his round ball firing smooth bore breech loading doubles back around the end of the 19th century, see "The Gun".

[1Shirt]

Have more than a fair amount of experiance with smoothbores and patched round ball shooting in trade guns and 12 gage front stuffers. At 25 ysd, with a tight patched ball, I was usually capable of keeping most of a 5 shot cluster in or close to the back on a T4 target with an old CVA side by side. Know a lot of trade gun shooters who shot 20, 12, and some oddball gages down to about .410 that are or were capable of of staying on paper and mostly in the black. Know a lot of black powder shooters in Ne. who have taken deer with smoothbores in this state.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[theperfessor]

So what would the legality be of making fin stabilized projectiles for a smoothbore if they were not "armor-piercing"? What kind of length to diameter ratio are we talking about? Would a 3.5 12 ga hull be long enough for a sabot w/a 20 gauge fin stabilized projectile?

[madcaster]

I had not a bit of problem hitting in the black at 50 yards offhanded,and I sure do NOT need a big bullseye!
By the way,this was a Fusil-a flintlock that was a 20 guage in this instance,60 grains 3F,a pillow ticking thick patch,and a .595" round ball.:drinks:
They shoot better than most are led to believe!It just takes some practice.:coffee:

[longbow]

theperfessor:

I can't say I have seen any of these (in Canada at least) for a long time but they do or did exist:

http://www.armureriemartin.com/boutique/fiche_produit.cfm?ref=SAUBF&type=117&code_lg=lg_fr&num=9

Some that are readily available though not truly "fin" stabilized, they do use the weight forward design:

http://www.bulletswage.com/images/finslugs.gif
http://www.midwaysverige.com/apps/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=153309
http://www.midwayusa.com/BROWSE/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=19964&categoryString=9315***11462***9502***
http://brennekeusa.com/

And a little info on sabot rounds for artillery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot

Longbow

[mooman76]

Hmmmm....

Not having worked with a smooth bore BP gun, I can't comment from personal experience. I only know what I saw on the show.

Stew

That's the problem with some of these shows. They demonstrate or try something one time one way and that's proof positive that it does or doesn't work. They often don't even get people with the experience needed but they don't really care about the facts because they are putting a show on and usually have a predesigned idea of what the outcome will be so that's what they shoot for.

[theperfessor]

The first link is kinda like what I envisioned a finned slug would look like. I think the Brenneke would have a lot of drag. Appreciate all the links.

[stubshaft]

I regularly load .690 patched balls in my 12ga SXS Pedersoli. With the bead sights (well it is a shotgun) I can hold 6" @ 35yds.. When that pure lead ball hits a hog it knows it's hit!

[trk]

Someday I'll dig out a couple of Remmington's:
510S - smooth bore (for .22 birdshot) and
a 510P (peep sight) or 511, 512 for comparison.

[AZ-Stew]

Someday I'll dig out a couple of Remmington's:
510S - smooth bore (for .22 birdshot) and
a 510P (peep sight) or 511, 512 for comparison.

TRK,

I don't know why I didn't think of that. I have a set of the 5xx series, as well, including the target rifle, but I don't have the peep sight version. I hope the bore's not too tight for a single slug in the smoothbore.

Regards,

Stew

[trk]

Stew -
I'm sure it is not too tight! I've fired them before. 5xx series are GREAT! My Dad bought his 511 back in about 1930 for $15 new. That's what I learned on.

[Ricochet]

I had lots of fun with Uncle Vaughn's. I'd sit on the porch and shoot at something. Then I'd throw the empty .22 way out in the yard, shoot it, then throw that empty out and shoot it. I could keep that string going for a long time.

[AZ-Stew]

Stew -
I'm sure it is not too tight! I've fired them before. 5xx series are GREAT! My Dad bought his 511 back in about 1930 for $15 new. That's what I learned on.

Makes sense. I'm sure some engineer at Remington thought about some nimrod loading up solids to shoot when he couldn't find or afford the shot shells. I picked up some of the crimped brass shotshells at a gun show a couple of years ago. I think Winchester still loads them.

I bought a 511X (better sights and a couple other small mods) with the money I earned working at a grocery store during the summer of '66. Mine cost about $50 with an extra magazine and a brick of Winchester Super-X solids. The barrel wasn't straight. It wouldn't shoot to point of aim, regardless of sight adjustment. I left it in the trunk of my 64 Chevy in the long-term parking lot while I was on a Navy deployment. The trunk leaked and the exterior of the barrel got pretty badly rusted on one side. I also had to re-finish the stock, but I still have it. The others of the series I've picked up at gun shows over the years.

Regards,

Stew

[jonk]

I'm in the North South Skirmish Association. Most of our shooters don't use a patch, and those who do use aluminum foil as fabric patches aren't permitted. With a roundball of proper size (usually fatter than you'd use with a patch), there are guys who pretty much never miss at 25 yards and even 50 yards, at 2X2" targets offhand- and I've seen them hit 100 yard targets without issue.

They certainly aren't as accurate as a rifled gun but 2" at 25 yards and 3" at 50 are doable.

[1Shirt]

Used to shoot a lot of black powder matches. Have seen Trade guns in the hands of a good shooter stay in the black at 50 yds for 5 shots (and those were flinters). I didn't have a trade gun, but I used to shoot the 25 yard smooth bore matches with a side by side CVA 12 gage, and I usually placed in the top three shooters at that range with the thing. I could stay on target with it at 50 yds, but not all in the black, and was not competitive with it at that range. Have seen Brown Bess shooters that could stay on a man sized target about 3 out of 5 roounds with a tight patched round ball. Smooth bores have a place shooting projectilesl!!!!!
1Shirt!:brokenima

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnVT/Guns/Tip%20Curtis/Visit%20to%20shop/VisittoShop07.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/ShawnVT/media/Guns/Tip%20Curtis/Visit%20to%20shop/VisittoShop07.jpg.html)

[Earlwb]

My .69 caliber pirate pistol does quite well firing balls or minie balls at a man sized target up to 25 yards. My .69 caliber musket is a terror for animal hunting with the minie balls too. It doesn't do all that bad with a round ball either. But only up to maybe 50-60 yards tops though. The .69 caliber minie balls are terrifying in their own right weighing in at 750 grains.

I have a small .410 size musket and it does Ok out to about 25 yards or so. But it has only a front sight bead, so it is tough to aim it with any decent consistency. It does tend to make a better .410 shotgun though it could use a choke on it.

But some of the larger cannons seem to do better at accuracy from what I have read so far. But the people talking about them maybe had different ideas about accuracy. Hitting a large wall at 600 yards might be considered super accurate way back then. It might be that the larger heavier balls or bullets tended to not drift around as much.

[Multigunner]

Smoothbore military muskets were noted for poor accuracy mainly due to the extremely heavy charges.

Hunters using Trade Muskets or smooth bore Buck and Ball Pennsylvania guns used the old Long John Silver method of a heavy ball with a light charge.
A tightly patched ball doesn't roll in the bore. When a ball rolls in the bore it generates a Bernouli type vacuum bubble on the underside of the ball arching the trajectory downwards greatly reducing range. The modern airsoft guns use hop up rubbers to flick the ball into a reverse spin which reverses that effect to increase range.

A method once used with the Buck And Ball type guns was to drill a hole through the bullet and pass a cord through the hole knotted to secure it so that when fired a short tail of cord trailed the ball holding it facing into the airstream with no rolling. This increased range and held the ball on course.

The Japanese used aerodynamically stabilized bullets in some of their smooth bored training rifles. These were light gallery type loads for indoor practice.

[Outpost75]

Lots of good info here. Dating myself, but I can recall the Ferret teargas barrcade penetrating fin stabilized 12-ga. rounds being accurate enough to pick which window pane you wanted to hit at 100 yards from an Ithaca 37 police gun. And 12-ga. slugs from a cylinder bore riot gun will stay on an Army E silhouette at 100 yards.

[Geezer in NH]

There was a show on History Channel that had a guy shooting a smoothbore musket at a sheet of plywood about 30 yards out that was painted to resemble a barn.
Stew

I saw the show. I have been a competitive BP shooter for 30+ years. The guy the hired is an idiot with no idea IMHO