Fact or fiction: 357 deflects off of car window and 30-06 bad brush gun

[southpaw]

I have heard that if you fire a 357 at the front window of a car it will not penetrate it. I thought that this was due to lack of kinetic energy but I was told that the bullet is imparted with too much spin to allow it to go through the glass.

I was also told that a 30-30 will not deflect as much as a 30-06 will when they strike a twig. The reason given was the same as with the 357, the 30-06 is spinning faster therefore it will deflect more. I have been wanting to do a experiment on this, just have not gotten a round toit yet.

I was wondering if any of the experts out there could enlighten me.

Thanks guys!!

Jerry Jr.

[Blammer]

spin, na

velocity, mass, and bullet construction are more important factors

[pdawg_shooter]

The myth of "brush buster" is just that, a myth. I have tried every load I have loaded on a home made rig using various dowel rods to shoot through. Even my 45.70 deflects if it clips the side of a dowel. As for a .357 deflecting of glass, IMHO that would depend on the shape of the bullet and the angle it impacted the glass. Anyone out there with a junk car and a .357 want to run a few test?

[Hurricane]

Both statements are wrong. A 357 Mag will easily go through a car windshield and kill whoever is inside. Test it on your car but be sure noone is in or behind the car. The brush gun problem has been tested many times and written up in almost every gun magazine. The real truth is that no rifle can be depended on to shoot through brush without deflecting. They all deflect, or may deflect, if they hit brush. The best idea is to shoot throught open spaces in the brush so that the bullets don't hit anything on the way to the target. Which on will deflect the most at any given time depends on luck alone.

[cajun shooter]

As a police firearms instructor I did a lot of deflection test with the FBI. There are several variables in each test that we preformed. Most all 357 rds that I had tested myself went through the wind shield and then through a piece of 3/4 in plywood. The experts in that field say that a bullet that passes through 3/4 in plywood will deliver a fatal wound. I can't say that if you shoot at the very top curve of the windshield that it will pass through. The 158 gr Winchester metal piercing which is no longer made would shoot into a engine block and dis-able it. I can't count all the vehicles that I have done test on as we had a endless supply from the wrecking yard. The standard 38 spl 158 gr lead when fired from the rear would travel to the front seat and pass through the plywood. Now, any of these rounds that hit any door gear or seat reenforcement would have an effect on the rounds. We had poor results with any rounds that were less than the 357 class such as 9mm, 380, 32, 22 and so on. I can not give you help on the 30-06 or 30-30 debate. We even taught police officers how to deflect shoot some one hiding behind a vehicle or some other cover. You can shoot a round at the side or top of several things such as sidewalks, buildings and even cars to hit something beyond.

[cheese1566]

Dirty Harry was asked by his new female partner in one of the movies why he carrid the 44 mag. If I recall, his response was that he "seen 38's and 357's bounce off of car windows."

Could this be an origin?

[softpoint]

I have done a bit of reading on this before, but since I've not done any testing myself, can only offer the conclusion of others.
The general opinion is that the real definition of a "brush gun"is a shorter, lighter rifle appropriatly sighted for short range, quick shooting. A large caliber capable of killing quickly and penetrating deeply from poor shot angles.
The opinion is also that no round will penetrate any substantial amount of brush without deflection. And my .02 worth is that the '06 with a 200 or 220 grain bullet would be better than a 30/30 because of sectional density. If anything, the higher rotational spin would help,rather than hurt .
Any meaningful test would be very hard to carry out. How would a test be arranged that would ensure the different bullets hit the same amount of twigs, or at the same angle or the same diameter or hardness?
Atest could be, and has been carried out many times with many calibers on auto windshields. Most all rounds will go through, all rounds will be deflected somewhat, depending on velocity, bullet weight ,SD,bullet design, angle of impact, properties of the glass itself. I certainly wouldn't want to have to take cover behind a windshield with someone firing at it with a .357!
:coffeecom

[parson48]

Couple of years back I was hunting with a Rem. 870 using 1 oz. slugs. Shot at a big doe at 30 yards, and she ran off untouched! I was shocked when she didn't fall over. I always check carefully for blood, hair, or any sign of a hit.

Looked carefully around my spot and found a small branch, less that 1/4", that had deflected that 12 ga. slug.

Just my personal experience with "brush busting".
parson48

[OutHuntn84]

I think they guys at www.theboxotruth.com have already done the R&D on this subject and a few others you might find interesting.

[felix]

The 41 mag has more penetration capabilities using WW, water dropped especially, than any other pistol caliber using RN style boolits. Seen that too many times in practice, shooting through trees, steel plates, etc. The diameter of the boolit seems to be paramount with the likes of using WW or similiar. ... felix

[dsmjon]

FWIW, I know one of our state's HP armorers. Their testing of 9mm, 45cal, and 357sig led them to the 357 b/c it was the only caliber that would consistently break through automotive glass, and into the target behind the glass. Some of the 9's and 45's would either penetrate the glass and deflect, or simply bounce off of the glass.

[lunicy]

IMHO you can't rely on any bullet doing anything. I can see a 357 bouncing off a windshield and the next one penetrating. Bullet are just odd like that.

Just like when a man gets shot in the head with a .45 and lives, while some guy gets shot with a pellet gun and dies.

unpredictable oddities

[Rocky Raab]

Do remember that a .22 will almost always ricochet off water. It's an angle of impact thing. A bullet striking anywhere near to perpendicular will almost always penetrate, but if it strikes at an acute angle, the chances go up immensely that it will simply deflect.

"Brush bucking" is a total myth. You have a rounded object hitting a rounded object. Even the slightest misalignment will result in deflection.

[405]

Both urban legend/coffee shop cr*p. Unfortunately, when I go to coffee I have to endure similar stuff on most any segwayed subject :veryconfu

[exile]

I have a friend in law enforcement who put several .357's into a windshield in an effort to stop a bank robbery. All rounds shed their jacket and did not penetrate the windshield. He thought that was more of a function of bullet jacket construction than the .357 round per se. He said if he could carry anything he wanted it would be a 10mm.

My grandfather was a highway patrolman from 1933-1958. He said .38's always bounced off windshields. He carried the .38 on inspection day and a .45 the rest of the time.

(Armchair information I realize, but that is what I have to offer.)

exile

[danski26]

My brother sisters uncles cousin shot at Bonny and Clide with there 357 sigs and the bullets bounced of the side window glass.......where do people come up with these things?????

[Heavy lead]

Lesson learned, don't shoot brush. As far as windshields, they're much too expensive to shoot, roll the side window down.:kidding:

[wallenba]

Dirty Harry was asked by his new female partner in one of the movies why he carrid the 44 mag. If I recall, his response was that he "seen 38's and 357's bounce off of car windows."

Could this be an origin?

If they threw the gun maybe, shot the bullet...no. A few years back some punk shot out over 40 car windows in one night locally, with a .177 pellet rifle.

[Tom W.]

The general opinion is that the real definition of a "brush gun"is a shorter, lighter rifle appropriatly sighted for short range, quick shooting. A large caliber capable of killing quickly and penetrating deeply from poor shot angles.

:coffeecom

Yup. Something that's easy to handle in the thick stuff....Handguns shine in that respect.

[Geraldo]

I think they guys at www.theboxotruth.com have already done the R&D on this subject and a few others you might find interesting.

Their results are similar to what our SWAT testing showed. The bottom line on windshields is that you can punch holes, but it's a crapshoot after that as to what happens to the bullet.

[C1PNR]

From my past, like the middle to late 60's.

Just an anecdote as reported to me by a close friend. He was an LEO in N. Las Vegas at the time this occurred.

One night a full time LEO and a Reserve stopped a car in the parking lot of a closed casino in NLV. The perp opened the door of the car and stood behind it as he started shooting. The Reserve got off two rounds and was hit and killed.

The perp then shot the Regular officer at least once, but the LEO got off one or two rounds and very seriously injured the perp.

Upon investigation, they found that the Reserve, armed with a .38 Spl, had hit the SIDE window (safety glass with the plastic sandwich) glass with both rounds and neither one penetrated! Both were found on the ground outside the car.

The full time LEO, armed with a .357, finally stopped the fight.

As I said, just an anecdote, but I know the source very well and I believe him.

That said, two of my regular ccw handguns are .38 Spl., just not with the 158 LRN the Reserve was REQUIRED to carry.

[southpaw]

Wow! Thanks everyone for all the replies. It looks like the 357 is going through the windshield. BUSTED.

I know that all boolits/bullets will deflect when they hit something, but I am wondering which ones deflect more. Does bullet spin cause the bullet/boolit to deflect more or does it have more to do with bullet/boolit weight, design and velocity? ie a 180gr. bullet (sierra sbt for sake of argument) fired from a 30-06 going 2700fps. Would it deflect more fired in a 1-10" twist barrel or a 1-12" or would it deflect more at 2700fps than it would at say 2300fps? I am finding it hard to be clear, I guess what I am asking is does velocity speed up deflection or does it help keep deflection down to a minimum? Would a 45-70 deflect less even tho it is going alot slower (yet has alot more weight). Flat point vs. spitzer?

Sorry so long winded its just that I ask one question and leads me to another and another....

Thanks OutHuntn84 for the link lots of info there.

Thanks all

Jerry Jr.

[HollandNut]

I doubt rate of spin would play a factor here ..

Imagine the tops we used to spin as kids , the bullet spinning is similar , basically a gyro that is freewheeling .. Once the energy is spent to make it spin , there is no energy to keep it spinning ..

You just very lightly touch that freewheeling spin toy and what happens ??

The balance is upset ..

Same with the boolit/bullet , no matter the rate of spin or speed or caliber , if it contacts something enroute to the target , it is unstable ..

[Tom308]

The deflection test has been conducted many times. The last good one I saw was by an intersectional vehicular traffic control officer (traffic cop) by the name of Gemmerig. I think that is how his name is spelled. He was with Long Beach California Police department. There is a park at the police academy named for him. He and another officer conducted tests with several calibers on a bunch of junk cars. As has been stated here, it depends on the angle. As for a brush gun, that's ANY gun used in the brush. I've known of people hunting deer in our brushy country with surplus rifles with barrels 29 to 32 inches. That's more weight than I want to carry. My rifle barrels are from 20 to 26 inches. If I take them into the brush, they are brush rifles. The caliber is up to you.

[mooman76]

Dirty Harry was asked by his new female partner in one of the movies why he carrid the 44 mag. If I recall, his response was that he "seen 38's and 357's bounce off of car windows."

Could this be an origin?

Actually what Dirty Harry said was " the 357 a good gun but I've seen 38's bounce off a windshield"

I've always wondered what he actually meant by that. Was he implying 357s too since it is the same caliber as 38 or did heleave part of the line out or what?

[Gently]

Nope a .357 Will penatrate a windshield...unless steep angle (as with most all bullets) this is a fact....I have done it tow determine the difference between .357 and .38 spl..
A .38 spl will ricochet off a curved window 95% of the time no matter the angle.
We conducted these tests a NAS Boca Chica in the late 90's for the Monroe county Sheriffs Office. We were deciding if we would go to a 9mm or stay with the .38. when we tested the 9mm it would ricochet about 40% of the time.
The Sheriff decided on the Baretta 92F and the 92FS 9mm.....I stuck with my S&W 645 LS and updated to aS&W 4506.
I do use a .38 model 15 combat master piece and a stainless Python for competetion shoots W/148 HJSWC and titegroup powder @ around 900 FPS very accurate.

[Freischütz]

As a kid I tried shooting some automobiles with the 38 Special and 45 ACP.

The 38s were the old 158 gr round nose, lead bullet. From about 15 ft. they penetrated the near door . A rolled down window stopped them within the door.

The 45s were Western commercial hard ball. I fired them into the windshield. I didn't worry about the angle. I just stood at ground level, aimed at the passenger seat, and shot three times. All three shots penetrated the windshield. When I checked the front seat I found that all three bullets' jackets had ruptured. The jackets were stuck in the seat and the cores had gone through.

Unfortunately, I wasn't curious enough in those days to investigate further.

[markinalpine]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm


The Box O' Truth - The Buick O' Truth

Mark :coffeecom

[yondering]

These discussions are always amusing, because there is no right answer.

Pretty much any round, including the little 22LR, will penetrate some windshields, some of the time. There are too many variables in both ammo and windshields to say X bullets will penetrate but Y bullets won't.

One variable that hasn't been brought up in this thread is bullet hardness. Soft lead bullets will ricochet off a windshield (or any other hard object) easier than hard bullets. Hard bullets penetrate hard objects easier. Higher velocity bullets also penetrate hard objects better. This is true not just for windshields, but steel plate, concrete, etc.

This partly explains why the .38 special with soft swaged lead bullets sometimes ricochets off a windshield. A hard cast boolit in the same situation would be much more likely to penetrate.

[DLCTEX]

I saw a shooting in 1967 in which a fellow shot another through a Chevy pickup windshield from about 10 yds. with a 410 shotgun and #6 shot. The shot penetrated and hit the brim of a felt hat (the guy ducked a little) and penetrated to the skull, traveled under the scalp to the back of his head where they were removed. I guess his head was harder than the windshield.

[Marlin Hunter]

Deflect, Yes. Not break the glass and bounce off, NO. That is one reason why Police snipers are not suppose to shot at suspects through windows if there is hostage near by. The Stockton, CA police found out the hard way and caused the death of many hostages at some stereo outlet (era 1980's/1990's??). I think it's one of Newtons laws. An object continues/remains in a straight line motion until acted on by another force. (or something like that)

Would you sit in the drivers seat and let someone shot a 357 at you through the windshield?

If you are a member of the A-team, you can hide behind a flimsy metal garbage can and 50 cal bullets will just bounce off.

[Crash_Corrigan]

A few years ago I was forced by the need to make money to drive a cab in Albq. NM. Talk about a crime ridden city!

We had a fellow driver disemboweled by a nut case one night so I took to carrying my 586 Smith loaded with some hard cast 158 GR SWC boolits.

One evening a fare pulled a knife and proceeded to announce a robbery.
I was lucky enough to be able to get off one shot. It hit him across the top of his left thigh, gouged out a nice furrow and proceeded to do the same to his right thigh. Then it exited the cab through the passenger door and went into and through the driver door of a parked car, across the seat the ended up stuck in the inner layer of the passenger door.

When all was said and done I had to pay for the taxi cab door, and the parked car door and paid to have the passenger door repaired. The mutt went to the hospital and thence to jail. I moved to Vegas.

I will say that firing a 357 inside a cab with the windows closed was quite an experience that I would not want to repeat. My hearing was affected for about 3 days and I have no idea how much permanent damage was done.

Lesson 1-find a less lethal job
Lesson 2-do not take a knife to a gunfight

[EOD3]

Dirty Harry was asked by his new female partner in one of the movies why he carrid the 44 mag. If I recall, his response was that he "seen 38's and 357's bounce off of car windows."

Could this be an origin?

IIRC, that's the scene where he admits to using "light" .44 SPECIAL loads... :shock:

[Heavy lead]

A few years ago I was forced by the need to make money to drive a cab in Albq. NM. Talk about a crime ridden city!

We had a fellow driver disemboweled by a nut case one night so I took to carrying my 586 Smith loaded with some hard cast 158 GR SWC boolits.

One evening a fare pulled a knife and proceeded to announce a robbery.
I was lucky enough to be able to get off one shot. It hit him across the top of his left thigh, gouged out a nice furrow and proceeded to do the same to his right thigh. Then it exited the cab through the passenger door and went into and through the driver door of a parked car, across the seat the ended up stuck in the inner layer of the passenger door.

When all was said and done I had to pay for the taxi cab door, and the parked car door and paid to have the passenger door repaired. The mutt went to the hospital and thence to jail. I moved to Vegas.

I will say that firing a 357 inside a cab with the windows closed was quite an experience that I would not want to repeat. My hearing was affected for about 3 days and I have no idea how much permanent damage was done.

Lesson 1-find a less lethal job
Lesson 2-do not take a knife to a gunfight

Crash, next time your driving a cab, get yourself a set of Walkers Game Ear muffs to wear.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

Here is a typical car that has been shot at thousands of times with many caliber weapons. All of which have deflected with nary a scratch.

http://www.forbes.com/images/2001/02/07/bond_aston_377x277.jpg


The Only Gun that can properly do the job and has the features of being virtually undectable under your Tux is this special model. The caliber is classified "Eyes Only" so thats about all your allowed to know.

http://www.forbes.com/images/2001/02/07/bond_gun377x456.jpg


So forget all that foolishness that you here on Mythbudders and Survival TV Shows.

[markinalpine]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot47.htm

Along a different line, Old Painless at the Box O' Truth test bullet proof glass.
Hint: 12 gauge slug did it. :Fire:
Mark :coffeecom

[markinalpine]

Here's another relevant test, again from the Box O' Truth:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40.htm

Here they tested deflection of different sized rounds using wooden dowels instead of random branches. The 12 gauge wins again!

Mark :bigsmyl2:

[trk]

One manufacturer of bulletproof glass (for our military vehicles) is in Galax, VA.

I saw a chunk of it (about 4 to 6" thick) - it easily stopped a high-power rifle bullet. Couldn't see anything through it afterwards, but it did not fail.

It was a scrap piece that one of the employees brought to the range for target practice.

[Ricochet]

I was just over at a health fair in Troutdale Thursday. We went over to speak to the students at Oak Hill Academy in Mouth of Wilson, too. Had some exhibitors from Galax.

[trk]

I was just over at a health fair in Troutdale Thursday. We went over to speak to the students at Oak Hill Academy in Mouth of Wilson, too. Had some exhibitors from Galax.

Someday I'm sure we'll meet face to face - preferably at the range.

[Ricochet]

Yep. :-)

[williamwaco]

When I was a kid, we did most of our shooting at the town dump.

The best it ever got was when somebody dumped an old car body.

Remember - this was mid 50's and an "old" car body was mid 40s.

The .38 Special would always penetrate the outside skin of the door but rarely make it into the passenger compartment.
It would always penetrate, break, the side windows.

It would never penetrate a curved piece of sheet metal like a fender or a bumper and it would rarely penetrate a curved piece of glass like a wind shield.

It would also not break a 6 ounce coke bottle.

The .357 magnum would do all of this and more.

[starmac]

The only fact I know for sure is, if someone shoots at my windshield I will be ducking and it doesn't matter what caliber they are shooting.

[blackthorn]

A few years ago I was forced by the need to make money to drive a cab in Albq. NM. Talk about a crime ridden city!

We had a fellow driver disemboweled by a nut case one night so I took to carrying my 586 Smith loaded with some hard cast 158 GR SWC boolits.

One evening a fare pulled a knife and proceeded to announce a robbery.
I was lucky enough to be able to get off one shot. It hit him across the top of his left thigh, gouged out a nice furrow and proceeded to do the same to his right thigh. Then it exited the cab through the passenger door and went into and through the driver door of a parked car, across the seat the ended up stuck in the inner layer of the passenger door.

When all was said and done I had to pay for the taxi cab door, and the parked car door and paid to have the passenger door repaired. The mutt went to the hospital and thence to jail. I moved to Vegas.

I will say that firing a 357 inside a cab with the windows closed was quite an experience that I would not want to repeat. My hearing was affected for about 3 days and I have no idea how much permanent damage was done.

Lesson 1-find a less lethal job
Lesson 2-do not take a knife to a gunfight

Lesson 3-aim about 12 to 14 inches higher!