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Marlin Junky
05-05-2006, 01:57 AM
Has anyone tried to invigorate the 44-40 into a silhouette cartridge for the NRA Lever Action Rifle Silhouette course? Why couldn't the 44-40 in a Marlin 1894 drive a 250 to 265 grain boolit fast enough to be a capable silhouette rifle? I suppose a lot of you will suggest, why not just use a .44 Rem, but there's an added sense of nostalgia associated to the most popular rifle/carbine cartridge of the 1870s and 1880s. I've been thinking about picking up a Marlin 1894 in 44-40 the next time I do some traveling out west, (this fall) a SAECO 430 (their 265 grain PB) and a big box of Starline 44-40 brass. I'd also like to add a Lee 6-cavity 429-200-RF to my collection so I can make a bunch of plinking boolits for the lil' woman and get her more interested in shooting.

From a silhouette rifle standpoint, I think a 265 grain PB at 1500 fps ought to work well from the slow 38" twist of an 1894 in 44-40.

MJ

w30wcf
05-05-2006, 08:10 AM
MJ,
I use my '73 WInchester circa 1882 so chambered for NRA Cowboy Silhouette. a 200 gr. bullet at 1,200 f.p.s. is all that is required for the pistol cartridge category which has the furthest target at 100 meters (12# steel ram).

However, if one was going to use a .44-40 in the Rifle Cartridge category (55# ram at 200 meters), then the heavier bullet at 1,500+ f.p.s. would be good medicine. A distant friend of mine has used his Marlin Cowboy .44-40 in this event and used H4227 powder in .44 Magnum starting loads.

Have fun,
w30wcf

Marlin Junky
05-05-2006, 11:20 AM
w30wcf,

Sounds good to me. I wonder how surplus WC-680 would work with SAECO 430. Hey now... I may have discovered a use for the remainder of my AA2200!

I don't have all that much experience with PB boolits so here's a question for you:
How fast do you suppose SAECO 430 can be driven and hold gas-check-like accuracy? 1500 fps? How about 1600 fps? My alloy of choice is clip-on wheel weight metal and solder which comes out to about 15 BHN according to my Lee Hardness Tester.

What are the groove dimension on your friend's 44-40? I've noticed that modern moulds usually drop bullets a little narrow for Marlin barrels, but a 44-40 should be a super tight 44 Rem.

MJ

Four Fingers of Death
05-05-2006, 06:59 PM
Be careful here. Brass is the weak link, but some of the rifles are also.

I picked up a used 1866 Uberti and the owner gave me three boxes of factory loads and a box of reloads which were put together by a gunsmithwe both know. One factory round caused the action to stretch, causing mystery unreliability which was a PITA. We finally realised that the side plates were a bit loose and then saw that the actual action had stretched. Big job to fix, had to fill in the pivot hole then drill another hole a bit further forward to adjust the headspace. Only Cowboy factory loads and my reloads are going through that gun in future!

You should be right with a Marlin or a 92 though.

With a 200 Gn boolit you should be right at 1200 fps though.

Four Fingers of Death
05-05-2006, 07:02 PM
PS, if you are after nostalgia, +P loads aren't part of it at all.

Marlin Junky
05-05-2006, 09:36 PM
I'd be using a new Marlin 1894 and Starline brass. I thought the "brass is the weak link" colloquialism was retired when it was discovered the old Long Colt could safely surpass the 44 Remington in power assuming the gun was up to the task. I'm more concerned about sloppy chambers than "weak brass".

The nostalgia, IMHO, comes from the 133 year old cartridge and 112 year old carbine designs, not the powder charge. I would probably load them down to a mere sneeze and up to 35K CUP if I felt comfortable with it. After the Winchester '92 became a hit, the factories were loading 200 grain bullets to 1800 fps circa 1900.

MJ

txpete
05-08-2006, 07:48 PM
in my 92 (navy arms)
200 gr pb lfn .429
9.0 grs unique
starline brass
win lp primer


1225,1227,1189,1181 fps good accuracy

same as above but 6.9 grs W231
1063,1055,1102,1160 fps

I know you can hot rod the 92's action but if I need more than 1200 fps I'll use another rifle..like my 375 win..45/70 ect.
pete

9.3X62AL
05-08-2006, 11:49 PM
I share your view, Pete--and have no choice, since my 44-40 WCF is an original M-1873 with more than a few miles on it. I have some boolit samples loaded and ready, 215 grainers at ~1100 FPS or so, some might creep closer to 1200.

My goal is to use it on brush country deer, which the carbine was used for considerably between 1897 and 1932 during its service as ranch rifle, initially by my great-grandfather and later by Grandpa until he died on Christmas Day 1932. It sat unused until 1997, when the rifle was handed down to me after my Dad passed away. It has gone afield several times since I "woke it up", but no deer have fallen to its report since Grandpa's time. I plan to change that! :-)

Four Fingers of Death
05-09-2006, 03:39 AM
Thats a labour of love Al.

txpete
05-09-2006, 07:42 AM
I share your view, Pete--and have no choice, since my 44-40 WCF is an original M-1873 with more than a few miles on it. I have some boolit samples loaded and ready, 215 grainers at ~1100 FPS or so, some might creep closer to 1200.

My goal is to use it on brush country deer, which the carbine was used for considerably between 1897 and 1932 during its service as ranch rifle, initially by my great-grandfather and later by Grandpa until he died on Christmas Day 1932. It sat unused until 1997, when the rifle was handed down to me after my Dad passed away. It has gone afield several times since I "woke it up", but no deer have fallen to its report since Grandpa's time. I plan to change that! :-)

I was just a kid when we moved from canada to the US.all rifles were left behind with family.my family goes back to some of the first settlers north of montreal(dads side of the family).anyways..one rifle that was left behind was a old ml flintlock rifle that was handed down over the years.
back to the 44-40 I sure hope you get the chance to drop a deer with your rifle this year.I had mine out a few times last year but never had a clean shot with it hunting the cedars.maybe this year if the ol ticker is doing well.
pete

6pt-sika
05-09-2006, 08:43 AM
Marlin Junky, I'm sure you already know that Marlin used the same size barrel on the 44-40 Cowboys as they use on the 44 MAG Cowboys . So when you go to size your bullets you can go with .430-.431.
I got one of the 1894CB's in 44-40 two months ago , it is NIB . But I've yet to shoot it :???:
Just got from Midway , Lyman mold #429215. This should work fairly well in the 44-40.:drinks:

:castmine:

KYCaster
05-09-2006, 11:23 AM
MJ, I have a Rossi '92 in 44-40 that I've run some pretty intrepid loads through with mixed results. Various 200 and 215 boolits would group OK as long as velocity was kept below 1300 or so (3.3in. for five rds. at 50yds.) but as vel. increased, so did group size.

With some pretty hefty doses of old Herculese 2400 I got up to 1730 with groups in the 4.2 to 4.5 range. At 1800fps. I couldn't keep them on a 8 1/2 X 11 target. IMR 4227 did pretty decent at more sedate levels but started showing pressure signs rather quickly.

I've just started working with the Lee 434-250-RF from the recent group buy and a six pound jug of WC680 from GI Brass. Based on very limited testing I think I may have found a winner.

The 250 RF cast from ACWW, sized to .427, lubed with Thompson's Blue Angel and seated to 1.660 OAL:

20.0 WC680 1224fps. ES 120 SD 60 3rds. in 2.45
22.0 WC680 1326fps. ES 99 SD 53 3rds. in 2.18

I'll bump the charges up some and hopefully the ES, SD and group size will all shrink as the velocity increases.

Don't ya just love it when a plan comes together?!! More testing to follow!!!!!

Jerry

9.3X62AL
05-09-2006, 12:39 PM
It IS a labor of love, Mick--for certain.

WC-680/AA-1680 seems to be a go-to powder for several of the hyphenated Winchester chamberings. I gotta get some of that for test drives, I have 3 of these calibers to feed.

Marlin Junky
05-09-2006, 03:24 PM
Thanks for the input... epecially the one regarding groove diameter. Assuming the wide groove diameter of .430" to .431", I might as well go with the 44 Remington which will be way easier to find and probably less expensive.

MJ

P.S. What commercial boolit molds am I limited to with the 1894's 38" twist? Can I assume the 1894 in 44 Remington will be more accurate with 200 to 215 grain boolits than the Winchester M94 (assuming the latter can still be purchased new) with its 26" twist? I doubt I'd ever be interested in shooting boolits heavier than 300 grains from a Marlin 1894 in 44 Rem., but just for the sake of reference, has anyone earned bragging rights with 300+ grain boolits from the little Marlin 1894?

P.P.S. Since I'm too cheap to buy 44 cal gas checks, are you guys getting good results with the Marlin 1894 using readily available 44 cal PB molds?

Marlin Junky
05-09-2006, 04:17 PM
KYCaster,

Is the Lee 434-250-RF a PB or GC mold? Can you post pics of its boolits?

MJ

KYCaster
05-09-2006, 05:59 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/KYCaster/000_0336.jpg

PB.....ACWW

Jerry

Marlin Junky
05-09-2006, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the pictures. I'd be interested to know if it'll shoot accurately beyond 1400 fps. Please allow me to suggest one of the 4227's or N120 with that bullet if the WC-680 doesn't live up to expectations beyond your 22.0 grain charge. I've tried WC-680 on a few occasions and it always produced sloppy stats for me but good luck to ya just the same.

MJ

Four Fingers of Death
05-10-2006, 07:21 AM
I have this mould, brand new, which I bought for the 44/40 for cowboy action. Anybody used it?

Wayne Smith
05-10-2006, 08:15 AM
Just for comparison's sake. I have the MAV 200 gr bullet that goes 1200fps over 40gr GOEX FFG compressed out of a Uberti '73 Short Rifle.

9.3X62AL
05-10-2006, 05:01 PM
One of my pending projects for the '73 x 44-40 is use of RL-7 in a 100% density load under a couple different vintages of #427098, info and samples provided by W30WCF--many thanks, John! The rationale behind this move is to get 1873-era ballistics and pressures, plus the powder column support the old BP charges gave to the vintage boolits like #427098, that lack a crimping groove. Marching down the tubular magazine can make uncrimped and/or unsupported boolits telescope into cases.

Try as I might, I couldn't get more than 35 grains of Goex 3F (volume measured) into the Remington cases I used for my sole venture with The Holy Black in this rifle. The bore was fouled out in about 6 rounds, so I'm certain I messed at least one variable up in the assembly.

I had one of the Lee 44-200-RF molds for a while. They dropped at .434" from the mold, which was a little too much of a good thing for my needs. I swapped it to someone on the board a while back. It did have a small crimp groove that would support the boolit against magazine spring tension and feeding manipulation.

Depending on outcome of the RL-7/#427098 work, I'll be getting a mold for this caliber in a few months. I'd like to avoid the expense of gas checks if possible, but if that's what's needed to get accuracy, I'll bite that boolit.

Bad pun. Sorry, but my metaphors are on strike due to overuse, strain, and working conditions issues.

JeffinNZ
05-15-2006, 08:05 PM
Hi

Can one of you learned gentlemen tell me the rate of twist in a Uberti .44-40?

woody1
05-15-2006, 10:48 PM
Hi

Can one of you learned gentlemen tell me the rate of twist in a Uberti .44-40?
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/boregroovetwist/bore_groove_twist-Uberti.htm

Four Fingers of Death
05-16-2006, 04:11 AM
If its an old model 1866, I'll be able to tell you tomorrow, because mine is due back from the gunsmith's. :-)

Denver
05-16-2006, 09:51 AM
Has anyone tried to invigorate the 44-40 into a silhouette cartridge for the NRA Lever Action Rifle Silhouette course? Why couldn't the 44-40 in a Marlin 1894 drive a 250 to 265 grain boolit fast enough to be a capable silhouette rifle? I suppose a lot of you will suggest, why not just use a .44 Rem, but there's an added sense of nostalgia associated to the most popular rifle/carbine cartridge of the 1870s and 1880s. I've been thinking about picking up a Marlin 1894 in 44-40 the next time I do some traveling out west, (this fall) a SAECO 430 (their 265 grain PB) and a big box of Starline 44-40 brass. I'd also like to add a Lee 6-cavity 429-200-RF to my collection so I can make a bunch of plinking boolits for the lil' woman and get her more interested in shooting.

From a silhouette rifle standpoint, I think a 265 grain PB at 1500 fps ought to work well from the slow 38" twist of an 1894 in 44-40.

MJ


MJ.

FWIW, I've owned the Model 94 Cowboy rifles in 45 Colt, 44 Mag, 44-40, and 357 Mag. With the exception of the 357, none of the others would shoot cast worth a damn. It's a real shame also as the rifles themselves are great, and the fix is so simple. They just have to stop "freeboring" their chambers. The only way I've been able to get them to shoot is to seat boolits out far enough to engage the rifling. That in turn makes it impossible to work them through the action because of the length.
The 357 shoots pretty well with the 180 gr RNFP Lee that I bought in one of the group buys here, but is still nothing to write home about. My next try in a lever gun is going to be a Rossi 92 I think. Hoping they will offer the 454 Casul in the 24 in barrel. If I can get one lever gun to shoot cast consistantly inside 3 inches at 100 yards, I'll be happier than a pig in Sh!t.
Anyhow, that's my experience, your mileage may vary.

:castmine: :Fire:

Marlin Junky
05-16-2006, 03:33 PM
Denver,

I know those who are shooting .457" boolits through the 1894 in .45 Colt with great results. They have told me filling the throat is the key. I'm afraid that's not going to be so easy with the .44 Remington unless I take the time to design molds for it. Therefore, I'm not going to risk the purchase. One of the reasons I got interested in the 44-40 was due to the narrower groove dimensions and I thought it would be easier to find commercial plain base molds that would produce good results. Now I understand that Marlin has used the same bore/groove dimensions in the 44-40 as they are in the 44 Rem. Very disappointing, Marlin.

MJ

drinks
05-16-2006, 09:47 PM
On my .44-40, a 1910 Win.'92, the groove is .429", but the chamber is so tight a .428" bullet is the largest thing it will accept.
I have used Rel7 with a 230gr SWC, gc and a 310 gr RF gc.
Used 22gr for both and got 1100fps + - with both bullets. Yeh , I know. Oh well.

Four Fingers of Death
05-16-2006, 10:31 PM
I gotta load my 1866 with BP and take it hunting. I think I'll use the Lee 200Gn RNF cast with pure lead. Should be ok on wild dogs, pigs and small deer.

Savvy Jack
10-28-2018, 12:52 PM
Ya gotta love it when I reopen a 12 year old topic!!!

The original poster asked about +P loads in the 44-40. Well lets take a look and see what we got in the year 2018!

Why +P, +P+ loads....because it is historic from 1903-1938! Lets take a look at what today could be considered +P and +P+ loads for this wonderful cartridge.

Lyman's 49th manual lists loads not suitable for weak action weapons. This is also true for the 45 Colt and the 45-70, Lyman also lists high pressure loads for those too. If you desire to replicate original black powder ballistics with modern components (Smokeless Powder) as well as the 1903-1938 "High Velocity Loads" for the 44-40, Lyman's 49th manual has it listed! Since Marlin builds a superior rifle, the 1889 and 1894, they are well suitable....and Lyman has the loads listed!

On page 299 Lyman lists the following:

For Group I Rifles (weak actions)(Lyman lists ten rifles).....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40. Lyman shows 16gr of 2400 produced 1,183fps @11,900 psi (CUP)
These are the modern normal loads. They produce slower velocities than the original 44 WCF black powder loads but are very similar to the ballistics produced by the 1860 .44 Henry rimfire cartridges.

Here are the Group I rifles Lyman list as weak actions;
Group 1 (weak actions)
Winchester Model 1873
Whitney Kennedy lever action
Colt-Burgess lever action
Marlin Model 1888
Colt Lightning pump action
Replica Model 1873s (And I'd include replica Henry and 1866s in 44-40)
Remington No 2 Rolling Block Single Shot
Ballard No 2 Single Shot
Stevens Model 44 Single Shot

For Group II Rifles (strong actions)(Lyman lists nine rifles).....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40. Lyman shows a loading of 18gr of 2400 produced 1,380fps @14,500 psi (CUP)
They produce original velocities but produce slightly higher than max pressures. They could be considered +P loads.

Lyman also shows a loading of 20gr of 2400 that produced 1,638fps @19,000 psi (CUP). Don't forget, back at least in 1910, the Winchester manufactured HV load produced 22,000 psi (CUP) This loading exceeds the 1903-1938 era High Velocity Load's speeds but remain under the 22,000psi CUP pressures produced by Winchester. They could be considered +P+ loads due to the excessive high pressures.

Here are the Group II rifles Lyman list as strong actions;
Group 2 (Strong Actions)
Winchester Model 1892 (& replicas)
Marlin Model 1889
Marlin Model 1894
Remington Keene Bolt Action
Remington Model 14 1/2 pump action
Winchester Single Shot rifles Remington No 1 Rolling Block single shot
Remington "Baby Carbine" single shot
Stevens Model 44 1/2 single shot


One of John Kort's early writtings

22 Dec 2006
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?11194-Using-XMP-5744-in-the-44-40&p=129860&viewfull=1#post129860


"...but back in 1895, no less authority than Winchester Repeating Arms Co., deemed that smokeless ammunition was fine for use in their toggle link 1873 Winchester when they introduced their .44 W.C.F. smokeless cartridge. The cartridge boxes indicated that this ammunition was to be used in their models of 1873 and 1892.

U.M.C. introduced their .44-40 smokeless ammunition in 1896.

The original smokeless .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridges were loaded with DuPont No. 2, a bulk smokeless powder. 17grs. by weight was the charge and filled the same powder space as 40 grains of black powder.

By the early 1900's, "Sharpshooter" smokeless was used in 15 gr. charges. Sharpshooter was a dense smokeless powder, not too dissimilar in burning rate than today’s 2400. As a dense powder, there was airspace in the case.

The only problem I see with using smokeless powders in a toggle link action, is that if a faster burning powder is used (Bullseye, Unique, etc..) it is possible to accidentally double charge a case which would lead to a catastrophic failure.

Also, regarding Winchester 1892's, I have read that barrels without the "Special Smokeless Steel" are good to 28,000 psi. W.H.V. ammunition which was intended for the W 1892, was factory loaded to 22,000 p.s.i. THEREFORE, I would not exceed W.H.V. specs in these rifles. Constant use in these rifles of ammunition loaded to 28,000 p.s.i. could lead to metal fatigue and, ultimately, failure.

It is by far best to use slower burning smokeless powders (like the original) where a double charge could not be loaded into the case. Alliant has published data for Blue Dot, 2400, and REL 7 in the .44-40 at black powder pressure. A double charge of either of these powders would definitely be noticed. 4227, 4759 and 5744 are other powders where it would be almost impossible to double charge a case.

I have an original 1873 Winchester made in 1882. I purchased it 6 years ago. I have fired over 3,000 rounds of smokeless ammunition loaded with the above powders along with about 500 rounds of black powder cartridges. It is as tight today as it was when I purchased it. ~John Kort"

44-40 brass is not weak. I have shot over 1,000 rounds of HV loads documented on over 205 targets. I have about 100 cases that have been reloaded many times as HV loads, many not documented. I have only had one case failure, a small perpendicular crack near the mouth I believed caused by a slight crumple when seating the bullet. John quoted 3,000 rounds and never mentioned a case failure that I know of.

Lyman has these loads listed for strong action rifles, not weak actions. Revolver loads are in another location, all normal loads. I have shot 20gr of 2400 in my magnum framed SAA with the 44-40 cylinder and it rocks like a mule BUT nowhere near even 44 magnum loads.

Texas by God
10-28-2018, 03:07 PM
Back when I had a Rossi 44-40 I tried some of those +P+ Lyman loads with 180gr jhps. Holy Cow. The barrel/mag band front sight started creeping off from the recoil. Not fun at all.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Savvy Jack
10-28-2018, 09:19 PM
On a side note. on page 300 in the same Lyman's 49th, there are loads for the 427098 bullet. Powders used for this bullet are Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique. Again pistol powders. Velocities are higher for the Green Dot and Unique but the pressures are higher for the Red Dot @ 21,900 psi CUP. An accidental double charge with these powders could result in 60,000+ psi catastrophic results.

Although these are listed for Group II (strong action) rifles, as I said...I use these type loads in my magnum frame revolver. We know the frame will take the punishment of 44 Magnum loads that reach 40,000 psi CUP but what about the cylinders? The cylinders are all made from the same steel. The 44 magnum external cylinder wall thickness ranges between .0960" to .1025". The 44-40 cylinder wall thickness is essentially the same ranging between .0960" to .1015". Both cylinder internal chamber to chamber walls are .0010 difference of each other. One would think that both cylinders would be for the cartridge with the measurements being so close but there is enough difference to be different. The cartridge base diameter difference between the two is .010". Both cylinders are fluted. As I have mentioned before, I have no desire to go higher than historical pressures (22,000psi CUP) in the 44-40. I have shot multiple loads of factory 180gr 44 mags and they rock, they look like a full fledged dragsters with flames reaching out both sides of the cylinder gap. The 44-40 shooting 22,000psi CUP 200gr loads rocks like a mule, unpleasent to shoot...but doesn't come anywhere close to the recoil of the 44 mag 180gr loads.

Ilwil
10-28-2018, 09:43 PM
I have a Miroku '73 in this caliber, and I've always cast and loaded RCBS 200 grainers. Now, I have a full box of Oregon Trail brand, 225 grainers. I can't find any load recommendations for this heavier bullet, though I know a lot of the commercial cowboy loads use it. Can someone recommend a good powder and powder weight? I don't need it to hunt, just shoot good.

Outpost75
10-28-2018, 11:29 PM
In the .44-40 a case capacity charge of RL7 to fill the case with 1/8" compression with bullet seated is safe in the Winchester 1873 clones with 200-215 grain bullet, about 23.5-24.5 grains depending upon brass. In the 1892 clones the same volume of H- or IMR4198 with up to 240-grain bullet, about 22 grs.

Savvy Jack
10-29-2018, 08:06 AM
If you are just looking for a plinker, trailboss will work just fine. 6.4gr for a 200gr bullet gives 13,000psi CUP. If there is an accidental double charge, the powder will overflow the case. There is no reason 6.0gr wouldnt work for the 225gr. Groups are still fun with Trailboss.

Like Outpost said, if looking for good groups, velocity, hunting and 100 yard groups...try reloder 7, that is my go-to powder.

if you choose Reloder 7, find a fired case and open the mouth with a cowboy expander die. The cowboy expander die is designed for the .430 diameter bullets. If you can, resize a 225gr bullet down to .427, or as small as you can so you can insert and extract the bullet with your fingers. Fill the case with Reloder 7 and insert the bullet until you can get the bullet to freely sit on top of the powder to where if crimped, sits even with the crimp groove. Then dump and weigh the powder charge. You could also use the "dowel method" to get a measurement. Different bullet designs seat deeper than others so your weight charge will very. Some may not even touch the base of the bullet. As outpest75 mentioned, 23.5gr-24.5gr will work fine.

23.5gr of RL-7 is max for a 240gr bullet to remain under 13,000 CUP.






I have a Miroku '73 in this caliber, and I've always cast and loaded RCBS 200 grainers. Now, I have a full box of Oregon Trail brand, 225 grainers. I can't find any load recommendations for this heavier bullet, though I know a lot of the commercial cowboy loads use it. Can someone recommend a good powder and powder weight? I don't need it to hunt, just shoot good.

bob208
10-29-2018, 09:07 AM
in the 20's and 30's the factories were making hot loads for the .44-40 .38-40 and .32-20. guns started blowing up. they had to stop making them.

Outpost75
10-29-2018, 11:14 AM
in the 20's and 30's the factories were making hot loads for the .44-40 .38-40 and .32-20. guns started blowing up. they had to stop making them.

The older Winchester 1873s, Colt Lightnings, etc. were black powder actions.

There was never any issue firing the HV loads in the Winchester 1892 and they are fine in the modern clones, but the 1873, even when produced with modern materials as the repops are, is still a weak action.

The following loads are fine in the Marlin 1894, Winchester 1892 and modern clones:

Table 1
Velocity of Typical .44-40 Winchester loads in Rossi Puma with 20” barrel:

Ammunition___________________Vel@15ft, Sd, ES

Winchester 200 JSP factory load____1158 fps, 18 Sd, 51 ES, current production

Handloads all in Starline cases, with Remington 2-1/2 primers

Matts Bullets 215 LFN 35 Goex 3Fg___1172 fps, 28 Sd, 98 ES - Bullet .430"
Remington 200 JSP, 24.5 RL7_______1355 fps, 22 Sd, 74 ES - Matches pre-WW2 loads with Sharpshooter powder
Hornady 200 XTP, 28 IMR4198_"C"__1642 fps, 20 Sd, 63 ES - +P for Marlin 1894 and Winchester '92
Matts 215 LFN 28 IMR4198_"C"_____1701 fps, 12 Sd, 41 ES - +P for Marlin 1894 and Winchester '92
Matt’s 215 LFN 7.8 Red Dot________1273 fps, 15 Sd, 57 ES - +P reduce 1 full grain for Group 1 rifles.
Accurate 43-230G 7.2 Bullseye_____1167 fps, 8 Sd, 25 ES - +P, reduce 1 full grain for Group 1 rifles.

Geezer in NH
10-29-2018, 03:45 PM
44-40 +P ? buy a 44 magnum before someone gets hurt IMHO

Savvy Jack
10-29-2018, 04:53 PM
44-40 +P ? buy a 44 magnum before someone gets hurt IMHO

I am going to paraphrase (the noun forum) something I just saw recently. Cause I know that ya'll know I can't come up with this good stuff on my own!!

Lyman has been providing equipment and information since 1878! Lyman is well known for this history thus many handloaders trust and value their information. When I load my (yes, Savvy Jack's) Winchester 1886, I use Lyman's published data not safe for the Trapdoor Springfield rifle. I am using data for the Leveraction rifles. Lyman lists three levels of power, Normal, +P and +P+ although they do not use those designations, the power levels are for the Trapdoor Springfield, LeverActions and the "Rugers".

Loading for the 44-40 is not much different. Although Lyman lists two "Groups" for the 44-40 rather than three as is with the 45-70, there are realistically three levels...low pressure, mid pressure and high pressure. That would be Normal, +P and +P+ unless there are specific pressure increases that represent the "P" symbols.

Simply using trusted published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the Marlin 1894CB doesn't mean someone is trying to make a 44 Magnum out of this cartridge nor do they need to go get a 44 Magnum. Quite frankly casting an accusation or even suggesting such shows an actual lack of knowledge, an ignorance so to speak, of the true difference between the 44-40 and 44 magnum's performance and pressures.

So lets take a look at the 44-40 and the 44 Magnum "in general".


44-40 (200gr)

Level One
13,300 CUP SAAMI MPLM, Normal (1,150 fps)

Level Two
18,000 CUP, +P (1,400 fps)

Level Three
22,000 CUP, +P+ (1,600 fps)


44 Magnum (200gr)

Rifle - No Pressure Data (should be around 18,500 CUP - 40,000 CUP)
1,600 fps - 2,100fps

Handgun Pressures (200gr)
18,500 CUP - 40,000 CUP

However, we all know the 44 magnum is famous for it's 240gr bullets, the purpose of it's design.
22,100 CUP - 40,000 CUP

So there really is no comparison between what (at least I HAVE accomplish with) the 44-40 and the 44 Magnum. Key information here is PRESSURE, not velocity!


44-40, 18,000 to 22,000 CUP
44 Magnum, 22,100 to 40,000 CUP

And to conclude...
If I wanted more rifle power then the 22,000 CUP allows for the 44-40, rather than get a 100-150 yard 44 Magnum rifle........the 45-70 is so much more efficient....of which I do have!!!

Savvy Jack
10-29-2018, 06:06 PM
in the 20's and 30's the factories were making hot loads for the .44-40 .38-40 and .32-20. guns started blowing up. they had to stop making them.

The 44-40 HV loads were manufactured from 1903 to 1938. I guess it took 35 years to come to that conclusion? Show me the documentation.

indian joe
10-29-2018, 07:18 PM
The 44-40 HV loads were manufactured from 1903 to 1938. I guess it took 35 years to come to that conclusion? Show me the documentation.

Sometimes we are slow learners
From a 1973 loading manual - 44/40 winchester 200 grain J boolit 29 grains Dupont 4227 - 2000FPS
I dont think that is a very intelligent policy for use in a vintage 92 winchester but that was the target audience at the time
Should be a dividing line between original model 92's and modern steel replicas - Rossi, Browning etc - steel and manufacturing processes have changed a lot in a hundred years.
Lots of Expert Gurus done (and advocated) some pretty stupid stuff along the way.
My opinion is not wanted ? too bad you got it!

Savvy Jack
10-29-2018, 07:45 PM
Sometimes we are slow learners

This is not 1973, this is 2018 and the current Lyman's 49th Handloading Manual says otherwise. Too bad you are a slow learner, please use current updated manuals.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?6684-44-40-p&p=4488015&viewfull=1#post4488015

Harry O
10-29-2018, 08:43 PM
This is not about exactly what you are thinking of doing, but you can use it as a data point.

I originally tried CAS with 44-40's using a Marlin 94, Rossi, and a couple of Ruger Vaqueros. All were new production in the early 1990's. Because of problems with the Rugers, I abandoned the 44-40's. I gave my son the Rossi and one of the Vaqueros and put the Marlin and the other Vaquero into the safe for many years.

The Marlin 94 had microgroove rifling and measured 0.430" to 0.431". Fortunately, the chamber was also big enough to take 0.431" lead bullets. I never did find a load that would shoot well in both the Marlin and the Ruger. About 6 - 8 years ago, I was thinking about a house defense rifle. AR-15's were higher than heck back then and besides, they are ugly. So I started thinking about the Marlin 44-40. I also ran across a bunch of jacketed Remington 44-40 bullets. I worked up to 18.0gr of 2400. The recoil was reasonable and it was accurate. I tried them in the Ruger and found that it was reasonably accurate in it, probably because the bullet is 0.426" - 0.427" in diameter. Of course, the bullet would not be allowed in the competition you have in mind.

I have fired between 300 and 500 of these rounds through the guns (mostly the rifle) since then without problems. That is not a lot, but if the pressure is kept less than a .44 Magnum, the new rifles should take it. Keep in mind that both of these guns are also available in .44 Magnum.

indian joe
10-29-2018, 08:52 PM
This is not 1973, this is 2018 and the current Lyman's 49th Handloading Manual says otherwise. Too bad you are a slow learner, please use current updated manuals.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?6684-44-40-p&p=4488015&viewfull=1#post4488015

well - up yours too mate and have a good day

Four Fingers of Death
10-30-2018, 04:42 AM
In Australia, Win 94s in 44/40 have been pretty easy to find in the past as the were a special order item from Winchester for many years, long after they stopped producing them for the rest of the world. This was due to the fact that one of our States, The Northern Territory (technically not a state, but as good as) had a silly rule where you could buy a 44/40 level rifle without any checks, paperwork, etc, but you had to have a license for anything more powerful, so most just bought a 44/40 and left it at that.

I have had a lot of 44/40s in the past (not one of the 94s sadly, I was never cashed up when one was available). I currently own two 1892s and two Ubertis, an 1866 and an 1873 (they are often called Ubeautys in Australia) as well as three Pietta 1873 handguns. I have reloaded a lot for them, but was never tempted to hot rod them. This was not true of many friends, who approached the issue with the "Heck, it's bigger than a 44Mag!"

I never saw anyone have trouble with their firearm, but plenty had trouble with brass failing. That appears to be the weak link.

If I lived in bear counrty and it was the only rifle I could afford, I'd probably try and squeeze a bit extra out of it, but I'd only be reloading the cases for the range or plinking. No sense encouraging a failure in the field.

It's a great old cartridge, use black powder, that sucker will sound so loud, you'll be convinced you're going lickety split!

Outpost75
10-30-2018, 10:00 AM
Savvy Jack is correct. I sent my Ruger Vaquero cylinder to John Taylor for rechambering which cleaned up the chamber necks from .444 to .447 to permit loading larger diameter bullets in Starlline brass. At the same time the reamer enlarged the cylinder throats from .427" to .4305", so I can now shoot .430" bullets in it which are a good fit in its modern .429" barrel.

John also fitted and chambered a Hamilton Bowen cylinder blank in .44-40 for my .44 Magnum Ruger Super Blackhawk and both revolvers now use the same ammo as my Marlin 1894S in .44-40 from the 1993 Jerry's Sports run, and my Interarms Rossi 1892 clone shoots well with the same ammo.

My S&W Model 544 Texas Commemorative revolver came from the factory with .4285" cylinder throats and .429" barrel. I left it alone because those revolvers are collectible. Chamber neck diameters of the cylinder are also .447" and the gun shoots well with factory .44-40s or hand loads with .429" jacketed bullets. It also shoots well with lead bullet .44-40 handloads using soft 1:30 tin-lead Accurate 43-230G bullets of .430" diameter. Those guns were great shooters as built.

DAVIDMAGNUM
10-30-2018, 06:56 PM
44-40 +P ? buy a 44 magnum before someone gets hurt IMHO

Because: In a lever action rifle the cartridge loads into the chamber at an angle of about 22.5 degrees.(Winchester 1892 1894 for example) If the chamber where shaped somewhat like a funnel and the cartridge the inverse of that "funnel shape" all is well, the cartridge feeds easily and fits the chamber snug. This makes for a versatile rifle cartridge combination. Black powder and low pressure smokeless loads seal the chamber protecting the action from blow by. If the chamber is in line with the bore and the cartridge fits the bore there is the potential for accuracy. If the cartridge fits the chamber in a rifle found in Group II load data then the brass will not expand enough to cause failure. ( John Moses Browning was no dummy).
This road I have also been down......A straight walled case trying to load into a properly cut chamber in the same action is another animal. The cylinder shaped cartridge will not easily feed into a matching chamber. The action is tweaked so that the base kicks up into the bolt face, but......in many instances the chamber is purposely over-sized or at least at the large end of the SAAMI specs. My 1892 Rossi came with an oval chamber opening. Not grossly oval, but oval enough for my naked non machinist eyes to see it. This allows for feeding that is reliable but accuracy can suffer. There are many posts about trying to get a 45 Colt lever gun to shoot well. Now, there is a modern , thick straight walled case in a sloppy chamber. High pressure loads can lead to excessive case expansion causing premature failure. Low pressure loads will not enable that same case to seal the chamber and blow by is an issue. As highly as I think of John Moses Browning taking his 1892 apart for complete cleaning every time I shoot black powder is a pain where a pill can't reach. Even loads with Trailboss, Green Dot , Unique can cause soot in the chamber. So like an 1892 Japchester I had in 45 Colt it was a pretty good rifle for Ruger/Contender only loads. Not great but pretty good. Light or normal 45 Colt loads forget it. Again there are posts about this exact problem. So it was a single use rifle. Only shoulder bruising loads of a case filled with H110 or LilGun worked well. I don't want to know what a 300 Grain Laser Cast Bullet traveling at 1500fps would do to a 100 meter ram.
I sent this rifle to John Taylor for "gender reassignment surgery". It now has 44WCF stamped on the barrel. It is now a versatile accurate rifle. Whether a small charge of TrailBoss or TiteGroup, a case full of Swiss 2F or Reloader 7 the cases come out clean which means no soot going into the action. AND a published Group II charge of 2400 is amazing! Amazingly powerful , amazingly accurate plus amazingly safe in the rifles listed in the data. I shoot lever action silhouette . I have seen first hand my 44WCF with soft 30-1 alloy bullets with a muzzle velocity of 1350fps knock over the full size 200 meter rams that were being "dinged" by heavy 30-30 loads (190 grain bullet and case full of Varget).
Last but not least the cool factor, SAFELY firing the old 44WCF and people coming over to ask "what are you shooting".
Can you tell that I'm a 44WCF fan?:bigsmyl2:

Savvy Jack
10-30-2018, 08:01 PM
David, I will retire with your reply!

Texas by God
10-30-2018, 08:47 PM
I'm using 9.5 hrs of Unique with a 215 gr cast fp in my H&R Topper stub. I estimate the velocity out of the 20" barrel to be around 1200 fps. If it bounces off a deer I'd better kick it up a safe tad till it doesn't:-)
The "2nd .44" is a good one since 1873.

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 07:56 AM
I'm using 9.5 hrs of Unique with a 215 gr cast fp in my H&R Topper stub. I estimate the velocity out of the 20" barrel to be around 1200 fps. If it bounces off a deer I'd better kick it up a safe tad till it doesn't:-)
The "2nd .44" is a good one since 1873.

Sometimes ya just can't beat a good Unique load and 1,200fps!! And only about 15,000 CUP, a great +P load!!!

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 07:57 AM
This is not about exactly what you are thinking of doing, but you can use it as a data point.

I originally tried CAS with 44-40's using a Marlin 94, Rossi, and a couple of Ruger Vaqueros. All were new production in the early 1990's. Because of problems with the Rugers, I abandoned the 44-40's. I gave my son the Rossi and one of the Vaqueros and put the Marlin and the other Vaquero into the safe for many years.

The Marlin 94 had microgroove rifling and measured 0.430" to 0.431". Fortunately, the chamber was also big enough to take 0.431" lead bullets. I never did find a load that would shoot well in both the Marlin and the Ruger. About 6 - 8 years ago, I was thinking about a house defense rifle. AR-15's were higher than heck back then and besides, they are ugly. So I started thinking about the Marlin 44-40. I also ran across a bunch of jacketed Remington 44-40 bullets. I worked up to 18.0gr of 2400. The recoil was reasonable and it was accurate. I tried them in the Ruger and found that it was reasonably accurate in it, probably because the bullet is 0.426" - 0.427" in diameter. Of course, the bullet would not be allowed in the competition you have in mind.

I have fired between 300 and 500 of these rounds through the guns (mostly the rifle) since then without problems. That is not a lot, but if the pressure is kept less than a .44 Magnum, the new rifles should take it. Keep in mind that both of these guns are also available in .44 Magnum.

I think Outpost75 had a Ruger that he sent off to have the cylinder chambers reamed out to properly fit the .429 bullets. That too is why I shyed away from the Ruger when I was looking for a revolver to complement my 1889 Marlin made in 1891 after reading up on those problems. I wish now I had purchased the Ruger and had the cylinder reworked. I found that the chamber in my Marlin 1894 is just a tad larger than the revolver I also have a "test barrel" I had made and it too has a tad smaller chamber than I wanted.

I have had good results with the Lyman published 18gr of 2400 and is great for +P loads and is only 1,500 CUP higher than SAAMI max pressures of 13,000 CUP WITH the Speer JHP (.429). In my testings, my top useful +P+ 44-40 loads are still well lower than the typical 44 Magnum. Lyman's top +P+ (Group II Rifle Loads) is loaded to 21,900 CUP and brings in about 1,600fps (Maybe it was 1,400fps) for a Lyman 427098 LRNFP bullet.

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 07:58 AM
In Australia, Win 94s in 44/40 have been pretty easy to find in the past as the were a special order item from Winchester for many years, long after they stopped producing them for the rest of the world. This was due to the fact that one of our States, The Northern Territory (technically not a state, but as good as) had a silly rule where you could buy a 44/40 level rifle without any checks, paperwork, etc, but you had to have a license for anything more powerful, so most just bought a 44/40 and left it at that.

I have had a lot of 44/40s in the past (not one of the 94s sadly, I was never cashed up when one was available). I currently own two 1892s and two Ubertis, an 1866 and an 1873 (they are often called Ubeautys in Australia) as well as three Pietta 1873 handguns. I have reloaded a lot for them, but was never tempted to hot rod them. This was not true of many friends, who approached the issue with the "Heck, it's bigger than a 44Mag!"

I never saw anyone have trouble with their firearm, but plenty had trouble with brass failing. That appears to be the weak link.

If I lived in bear counrty and it was the only rifle I could afford, I'd probably try and squeeze a bit extra out of it, but I'd only be reloading the cases for the range or plinking. No sense encouraging a failure in the field.

It's a great old cartridge, use black powder, that sucker will sound so loud, you'll be convinced you're going lickety split!

I would really like to learn more about the brass problem you guys are having. Can you give a bit more information on this issue? What firearms, which manufacture of brass, if factory loads...what brand, what powder is being used and how much, what bullets are being used, diameter etc, what reloading dies are being used...loads etc? Thanks

Four Fingers, I just remembered...if the brass is overworked it could result is splits. I have never had this happen BUT I dont resize my brass most of the time. If someone is using .429/430 bullets and using the Lee resize die, that could be a problem. The Lee die resizes for the .427 bullet, the RCBS Cowboy die resizes larger for the .429 and helps to not over work the brass. I wonder if this could be what some of those guys were running into.

Hootmix
10-31-2018, 08:33 AM
Jack , I believe you just answered a question I posted on another forum ,, my dies are LEE's . It pay's to read. I'v been having the same problem w/ a set for my 40-60 .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 08:44 AM
Jack , I believe you just answered a question I posted on another forum ,, my dies are LEE's . It pay's to read. I'v been having the same problem w/ a set for my 40-60 .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

I really dont like the lee dies myself although I do use them for specific purposes other than crimping.

What are your 40-60s doing? Are they being over worked?


On a side note
My typical set-up for loading the 44-40.

Decap, no resize die (except for the Winchester/Remington bullets
Lee powder thru expander die (powder drop)
RCBS M die
Lee Cowboy expander die using roll crimp for certain bullets
REDDING Profile crimp for the Winchester, Remington and certain lead bullets.
Lyman 310 hand tool set for other applications.

One set of dies wont work for all applications.

Four Fingers of Death
10-31-2018, 11:17 AM
Four Fingers, I just remembered...if the brass is overworked it could result is splits. I have never had this happen BUT I dont resize my brass most of the time. If someone is using .429/430 bullets and using the Lee resize die, that could be a problem. The Lee die resizes for the .427 bullet, the RCBS Cowboy die resizes larger for the .429 and helps to not over work the brass. I wonder if this could be what some of those guys were running into.

I have never had any issues with 44/40 brass (apart from squashing a few tihn necks every now and then, D'Oh!).The brass issue that colleagues of mine had was when they were trying to turn their 44/40s into 44Mags (Heck! the case is bigger than a 44Mag, here! Hold my beer!). The 44/40 still has some serious Whoompum with sane loads.

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 11:48 AM
I have never had any issues with 44/40 brass (apart from squashing a few tihn necks every now and then, D'Oh!).The brass issue that colleagues of mine had was when they were trying to turn their 44/40s into 44Mags (Heck! the case is bigger than a 44Mag, here! Hold my beer!). The 44/40 still has some serious Whoompum with sane loads.

Oh, they must really be loading them up. I have no desire or use for such loads. I did load up a few stiff loads for my test barrel, no damage but I only shot a few. I do plan to shoot more but only to see how far they will go. The barrel is 1 1/4" in diameter. If I dont break it, I may get it cut down to fit my Stevens shotgun frame as a single shot rifle.

bob208
10-31-2018, 11:59 AM
if you want to load hot . I say just keep going till the barrel splits then back off a little. what is it with everybody wants to make a magnum out of every thing ?

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 12:53 PM
if you want to load hot . I say just keep going till the barrel splits then back off a little. what is it with everybody wants to make a magnum out of every thing ?

Just to make guys like you post replies like that. You just couldn't resist could you?

44 Magnum
44-40 Magnum
45 Colt Magnum
45-70 Magnum
444 Magnum
22 Magnum
38 Magnum
50 Magnum
10 mm Magnum

Kinda like the ring of it, no pun intended!!

Chev. William
10-31-2018, 04:04 PM
Laughing . . . Try .25MACP. That is .25 Magnum Auto. Colt Pistol.
Case diameter .276"-.278"; Bullet diameter .251"; Case length 1.055"; Bullet weight 50 Grain JRN or 65 grain Lead (NOE TC255-65-RF mold).
Load for about 25,000psi MAP Pmax.
Use in a Long barrel revolver or a Rifle.

Chev. William

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 05:40 PM
Laughing . . . Try .25MACP. That is .25 Magnum Auto. Colt Pistol.
Case diameter .276"-.278"; Bullet diameter .251"; Case length 1.055"; Bullet weight 50 Grain JRN or 65 grain Lead (NOE TC255-65-RF mold).
Load for about 25,000psi MAP Pmax.
Use in a Long barrel revolver or a Rifle.

Chev. William

How about a .17HMR Magnum?

DAVIDMAGNUM
10-31-2018, 07:39 PM
if you want to load hot . I say just keep going till the barrel splits then back off a little. what is it with everybody wants to make a magnum out of every thing ?

That really isn't the point. On line and in print there are several sources for three levels of load data for the 45-70 Gov't. This seems to be well know and accepted in the reloading community. Using lab tested data for my 1886 (modern) Winchester I am not trying to make a magnum out of it. I am simply using published data for loads not safe in a Trapdoor Springfield that are perfectly safe in my rifle.
The situation for the 44WCF is similar but not as well know or published. I had a Uberti 1873 Winchester for years in 44WCF before I read about John Kort's efforts to replicate Winchester H.V. ammo. I found the Lyman Group I and Group II data and was interested. I had a Group I rifle only. Fast forward a few years and I now have an 1892 Winchester in 44WCF and enjoy shooting Group II loads. Just as above, simply using published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the 1892.
There are many loads, powders, cartridges that one source lists and two or three more do not. The high velocity or Group II loads are one of these subjects. That is how we wound up on this forum discussing the subject. You can call them +P, Group II, H.V........but magnum they are not.
If it has not been said in this particular thread then let me say it. Follow the published data from a reputable source.

Four Fingers of Death
10-31-2018, 07:51 PM
I bought one of those Savage BMag 17WSMs when they came out. Boy, what a disappointment.

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 08:39 PM
That really isn't the point. On line and in print there are several sources for three levels of load data for the 45-70 Gov't. This seems to be well know and accepted in the reloading community. Using lab tested data for my 1886 (modern) Winchester I am not trying to make a magnum out of it. I am simply using published data for loads not safe in a Trapdoor Springfield that are perfectly safe in my rifle.
The situation for the 44WCF is similar but not as well know or published. I had a Uberti 1873 Winchester for years in 44WCF before I read about John Kort's efforts to replicate Winchester H.V. ammo. I found the Lyman Group I and Group II data and was interested. I had a Group I rifle only. Fast forward a few years and I now have an 1892 Winchester in 44WCF and enjoy shooting Group II loads. Just as above, simply using published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the 1892.
There are many loads, powders, cartridges that one source lists and two or three more do not. The high velocity or Group II loads are one of these subjects. That is how we wound up on this forum discussing the subject. You can call them +P, Group II, H.V........but magnum they are not.
If it has not been said in this particular thread then let me say it. Follow the published data from a reputable source.

Well said!

Chev. William
10-31-2018, 09:49 PM
How about a .17HMR Magnum?
You CAN do it with Breech seating the bullet and using an appropriate Grade and size Powder Tool Load Rimfire Blank.
PTL blanks are standardized in 12 steps from Grade 1 (weakest) to Grade 12 (strongest) I am aware they are available in at least three diameters ; 22, 25, and 27 with general commercial availability of grades varying by the size.
I believe the Industrial Customer may have access to the full Grade range in each size.
Chev. William

indian joe
10-31-2018, 10:03 PM
That really isn't the point. On line and in print there are several sources for three levels of load data for the 45-70 Gov't. This seems to be well know and accepted in the reloading community. Using lab tested data for my 1886 (modern) Winchester I am not trying to make a magnum out of it. I am simply using published data for loads not safe in a Trapdoor Springfield that are perfectly safe in my rifle.
The situation for the 44WCF is similar but not as well know or published. I had a Uberti 1873 Winchester for years in 44WCF before I read about John Kort's efforts to replicate Winchester H.V. ammo. I found the Lyman Group I and Group II data and was interested. I had a Group I rifle only. Fast forward a few years and I now have an 1892 Winchester in 44WCF and enjoy shooting Group II loads. Just as above, simply using published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the 1892.
There are many loads, powders, cartridges that one source lists and two or three more do not. The high velocity or Group II loads are one of these subjects. That is how we wound up on this forum discussing the subject. You can call them +P, Group II, H.V........but magnum they are not.
If it has not been said in this particular thread then let me say it. Follow the published data from a reputable source.

45/70 lists three levels - trapdoor, winchester 1886 , ruger only (to which some have added modern made 1886)
Same would be smart with the 44/40 - 1873 and colt revolvers - 1892 winchester - modern steel 1892 (Rossi, Browning etc)
I have seen excessive headspace creep up in old model 92's with heavy loads that a Rossi or Browning would eat.
Those low serial number 92's are 125 years old - not the equal (strength) of a modern gun.

indian joe
10-31-2018, 10:09 PM
In Australia, Win 94s in 44/40 have been pretty easy to find in the past as the were a special order item from Winchester for many years, long after they stopped producing them for the rest of the world. This was due to the fact that one of our States, The Northern Territory (technically not a state, but as good as) had a silly rule where you could buy a 44/40 level rifle without any checks, paperwork, etc, but you had to have a license for anything more powerful, so most just bought a 44/40 and left it at that.

I have had a lot of 44/40s in the past (not one of the 94s sadly, I was never cashed up when one was available). I currently own two 1892s and two Ubertis, an 1866 and an 1873 (they are often called Ubeautys in Australia) as well as three Pietta 1873 handguns. I have reloaded a lot for them, but was never tempted to hot rod them. This was not true of many friends, who approached the issue with the "Heck, it's bigger than a 44Mag!"

I never saw anyone have trouble with their firearm, but plenty had trouble with brass failing. That appears to be the weak link.

If I lived in bear counrty and it was the only rifle I could afford, I'd probably try and squeeze a bit extra out of it, but I'd only be reloading the cases for the range or plinking. No sense encouraging a failure in the field.

It's a great old cartridge, use black powder, that sucker will sound so loud, you'll be convinced you're going lickety split!

Four Fingers
Have you had any remington brass - we get a body split case (or two) most times we reload - Uberti chambers - always its a rem-umc case - have also Winchester, Starline and I threw out about thirty old Dominion that had been reloaded a heap of times since the 1960's and no splits in those just the Rem-umc.
No have not tried annealing them - and yes headspace is good - and no not from excessive resizing - most cases we load maybe five times (including the split Rem's )before they need a touch with the size die - its the brass not the gun! -----just curious if this is typical or if we just got a crook batch one time.

Savvy Jack
10-31-2018, 10:41 PM
Four Fingers
Have you had any remington brass - we get a body split case (or two) most times we reload - Uberti chambers - always its a rem-umc case - have also Winchester, Starline and I threw out about thirty old Dominion that had been reloaded a heap of times since the 1960's and no splits in those just the Rem-umc.
No have not tried annealing them - and yes headspace is good - and no not from excessive resizing - most cases we load maybe five times (including the split Rem's )before they need a touch with the size die - its the brass not the gun! -----just curious if this is typical or if we just got a crook batch one time.

Like I said, I have reloaded numerous cases and shot a minimum of 1,000 High Velocity cartridges with only one damaged case. I used RP brass in my early testings (pistol powders) but switched to Starline. John Kort used RP brass for his HV loads and never mentioned a damaged case.

I use RP, Winchester, Starline and even some WW brass. RP was the only damages piece out of well over 1,000 rounds and countless HV reloads.
229683
Jan 15th, 2018
RP brass I found while cleaning. Date damaged unknown

indian joe
11-01-2018, 12:04 AM
Rem umc 44/40
body split
229688

Aint the first - unlikely the last - Winchester , WW, Starline and ancient Dominion loaded same and fired in same gun dont do it.
blackpowder only - no resizing - case fell into the chamber of the rifle it was fired in and fell out
anneal would maybe fix it.
have rem umc 45/70 cases here, no problems at all with those

Savvy Jack
11-01-2018, 07:34 AM
Rem umc 44/40
body split
229688

Aint the first - unlikely the last - Winchester , WW, Starline and ancient Dominion loaded same and fired in same gun dont do it.
blackpowder only - no resizing - case fell into the chamber of the rifle it was fired in and fell out
anneal would maybe fix it.
have rem umc 45/70 cases here, no problems at all with those

This is great information but just because you guys in Australia are getting splits shouldn't mean others shouldn't load per Lyman's manual. There must be a logical explanation.

1. Exactly what loads are you using?
1a. power?
1b. charge?
1c. bullet?
1d. primers?
1c. firearm?
1d. What percentage of shots result in splits?

My results are really 0 in 5000+ all loads all firearms, 0 in 1,000+ High Pressure loads in my Marlin and magnum frame revolver. (including all types of loads...plus my only split is not typical)
I also have six different firearms chambered for the 44-40 PLUS a test barrel. I have only used about 100 cases for the HV loads so they have been reloaded less than a few times each with about ten (some random grabs) being reloaded up to 20 times as my test cases ranging over the past 10 years.

I have shot some early semi-balloonhead cases with full 40gr of SWISS FF with no problems and without annealing.....but did not press my luck further. I did expect a case mouth crack but came out undamaged.

You already said all different case manufactures resulted in splits so it can't be a manufacture design problem.

Also, can you measure the spend cases in several areas from the base to the mouth and share the results?

Thank you for this information.

ajjohns
11-01-2018, 07:57 AM
I find these loads helpful. It's nice to see others enjoying what these rifles have to offer and the loads for them. My Remington 14 1/2 loves a Speer 200 or 210 gr Gold Dot behind 20grs of Alliant 2400, Winchester Lg pistol primer. Also softer boolits with 19grs of IMR 4227.

indian joe
11-01-2018, 09:46 AM
This is great information but just because you guys in Australia are getting splits shouldn't mean others shouldn't load per Lyman's manual. There must be a logical explanation.
crook batch of brass is my best guess

1. Exactly what loads are you using?
37 grains 5FA Goex --- 1990's vintage - chronos about someplace between Swiss and modern Goex FFF
1a. power?
1b. charge?
1c. bullet? 225 grain CBE or 205 grain LEE
1d. primers?
normal large rifle - federal now - that case coulda had Fed, Rem or WW
1c. firearm?
Uberti 1866 - nothing wrong with the rifle
1d. What percentage of shots result in splits?
good question - most times we load is 50 to 80 rounds - usually find a cracked Rem case - and usually half the cases will be other brand
Some of these coulda stood two or three years loaded with blackpowder before shot .
My results are really 0 in 5000+ all loads all firearms, 0 in 1,000+ High Pressure loads in my Marlin and magnum frame revolver. (including all types of loads...plus my only split is not typical)
I also have six different firearms chambered for the 44-40 PLUS a test barrel. I have only used about 100 cases for the HV loads so they have been reloaded less than a few times each with about ten (some random grabs) being reloaded up to 20 times as my test cases ranging over the past 10 years.

If your HV loads are running 1500 FPS or so should be as safe as houses in a properly setup modern gun

I have shot some early semi-balloonhead cases with full 40gr of SWISS FF with no problems and without annealing.....but did not press my luck further. I did expect a case mouth crack but came out undamaged.

You already said all different case manufactures resulted in splits so it can't be a manufacture design problem.
NO TO THAT!!!! its only REM UMC doing it ----- winchester , WW, Starline, the old dominion (semi balloonhead) - none of em split - only the REMUMC

Also, can you measure the spend cases in several areas from the base to the mouth and share the results?

the broken one is .461 at the solid head, .467 at the bulge, .463 point of shoulder, neck is out of round so cant get a measure
I resize to .463 when they need it. I dont use the FL size die ever - have a super simplex 44mag die set and by happy coincidence the seating die just kisses those 44/40 shells back so they chamber

Thank you for this information.

can get 40 grains of black in these modern cases just heavy compression - 40 grain FFF with 205 Grain RCBS got me 1355fps out of my 24 inch rifle. ...is that a plus "B" loading??
........

Savvy Jack
11-01-2018, 10:15 AM
can get 40 grains of black in these modern cases just heavy compression - 40 grain FFF with 205 Grain RCBS got me 1355fps out of my 24 inch rifle. ...is that a plus "B" loading??
........

No, that is original black powder pressures, regardless of velocities achieved. They are not +P loads

Using Starline brass, I can get 40gr of Swiss with about a .21" compression depending on the seat depth of a particular bullet.

Savvy Jack
11-01-2018, 10:21 AM
Swiss FF black powder, or at least my particular batch, were gr for gr with .21" compression. Goex, Kik and Skirmish varied in weight per case volume. Skirmish of course being "floor sweepings" for CAS.

Swiss is/was more dense...(with .21" compression)
Swiss FF - 40gr weight equaled 40gr by volume. More power
Goex FF - 38gr weight equaled 40gr by volume. Less power


John Kort's 44-40 Black-Powder Journey (https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2014/12/20/My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey)

Savvy Jack
11-01-2018, 01:45 PM
NO TO THAT!!!! its only REM UMC doing it ----- winchester , WW, Starline, the old dominion (semi balloonhead) - none of em split - only the REMUMC
Oh oh, I misundersood!!!

I first used RP brass back when I started the HV testing because PR brass is thicker. But because it is thicker, frequent full (.426) size resizing can weaken the brass using slightly over sized chambers. With an over sized chamber to fit .430 bullets and resizing back to the standard to fit .426 bullets really over works the thicker RP brass. My Marlin's chamber is very slightly larger than any other weapon's chamber I have. If I shoot a cartridge in the marlin, without resizing afterwords....the case may or may not fit into another weapon. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. The Marlin accepts and cycles anything I put in it, not so much with the others. As a matter of fact, when I bought the Marlin, the owner also sent me his 44 magnum resize die. He cut the die down so it would only resize the neck to fit the .430 bullets. This is one reason why I consider 0 out of 3,000 cases with no damage because the damaged RP case is a mouth crack and not a case length crack...but I can not confirm.

I would love to have a 66'..

It is very possible that I switched to Starline brass before I shot enough for a failure....other than the one I showed.

Starline is thicker than Winchester but thinner than RP. I hate CBC brass with a bloody passion! RP holds less volumetricly than SL or Win!

Harry O
11-01-2018, 01:54 PM
I think Outpost75 had a Ruger that he sent off to have the cylinder chambers reamed out to properly fit the .429 bullets. That too is why I shyed away from the Ruger when I was looking for a revolver to complement my 1889 Marlin made in 1891 after reading up on those problems. I wish now I had purchased the Ruger and had the cylinder reworked. I found that the chamber in my Marlin 1894 is just a tad larger than the revolver I also have a "test barrel" I had made and it too has a tad smaller chamber than I wanted.

I have had good results with the Lyman published 18gr of 2400 and is great for +P loads and is only 1,500 CUP higher than SAAMI max pressures of 13,000 CUP WITH the Speer JHP (.429). In my testings, my top useful +P+ 44-40 loads are still well lower than the typical 44 Magnum. Lyman's top +P+ (Group II Rifle Loads) is loaded to 21,900 CUP and brings in about 1,600fps (Maybe it was 1,400fps) for a Lyman 427098 LRNFP bullet.

My Rugers were bought right after they were introduced. I did send them to a gunsmith to ream out the cylinder throats (in front of the chamber) to 0.430" (up from 0.424"). Unfortunately, he did not have a chamber reamer to open up the necks of the chamber. I believe that they did not become available until later. He would have had to set up his lathe 6 times for each cylinder. The price was too much for me. So I had to stay with 0.427" bullets with a 0.430" barrel. Even so, with soft lead bullets and Bullseye powder, I was able to reduce the group size of the Ruger to 1/3 of what I got before. Unfortunately, that load leaded very badly in my microgroove rifle. With a 0.431" bullet for the rifle, I could not even seat that load in the handgun. Two loads would not have worked in CAS. With a mistake, it would jam one gun or lead the other gun.

After seeing the discussion about brass, I should note that I also had problems with Remington and Winchester brass with hot loads early on. They would split halfway around the base about 3/16" above the rim rather than split lengthwise like old cases normally do. I have been using Starline brass since then and have not had any problems.

Interesting that you place the pressure of an 18gr load so low. I thought it would be more than that. However, I knew it was less than the .44 Magnum, and even a little less than Elmer Keiths .44 Special loads. It makes for a nice load to shoot in my particular 44-40.

Outpost75
11-01-2018, 02:06 PM
As FYI for anyone needing to know, my friends and I have had John Taylor do enough Ruger revolver work that he built a fixture to hold the cylinder and to index each chamber in turn for a full rotation, so that he is set up to chamber Ruger cylinders efficiently, uniformly and affordably.

Savvy Jack
11-01-2018, 05:05 PM
Interesting that you place the pressure of an 18gr load so low. I thought it would be more than that. However, I knew it was less than the .44 Magnum, and even a little less than Elmer Keiths .44 Special loads. It makes for a nice load to shoot in my particular 44-40.

Absolutely, Lyman has published nothing new.

An article posted by Pacos Kelly some years ago that has since disappeared from the net. It was reposted not long ago by someone else. Unfortunately I have no idea what Part I was all about. It is my understanding he shut his web site down sometime between 2007 to 2009.

I removed the quotes so it is easier to read.

44-40 NOT A ZIP CODE...PT 2

In part one of 44-40 (in Back Issues) I spoke of the Uberti handguns I have in this caliber. One a bird’s head grip and the other a standard S/A Colt type grip...both with the 4 plus inch barrels. I was amazed at these two guns because they were manufactured many years apart from each other and yet the dimensions of the parts, all 4 cylinders (2 in 44 spc. and 2 in 44-40), chamber throats and bore were all so close, and everything can be swapped out between the two without changing the group sizes and striking points. And accuracy from the 120 plus year 44-40 cartridge from both guns was outstanding.

I had originally purchased both guns with the idea that I wanted to use the second cylinders chambered for the 44 special round only. Knowing the 44 special could in modern guns be loaded to much higher ballistics than the old 44-40. Since most modern 44-40 barrels are .428/9 bore like these Uberties, I felt the 44 special ammo would perform well. And it did. But I just can’t own a gun chambered for any round and not test it to it’s fullest...and certainly I put the pair with the 44-40 cylinders thru their paces.

The 44-40 like it’s brother cartridge the 38-40...suffers an image problem. Expressed best by an incident I had back in Virginia in the early 1970s when we lived in the wild back country. A young man and neighbor who acquired a beautiful Colt S/A in 44-40 was complaining about it’s "PUNY" ballistics. He brought the gun to me to see if he could re-barrel and chamber it to 45 colt.

That part of Virginia in those days was dense with oak trees. Oak is very dense wood...tough stuff. I had hundreds of trees on my property, and we were standing 10 feet away from one that was young and about 4 to 5 inches thick. With Winchester-Western commercial ammo I started shooting at the base of the tree on the left edge drawing my shots across the to right edge in a straight line. At the fourth or fifth shot the tree came down. My young friend was happily surprised. Using a reload of a Keith 240 grain cast bullet over 15.5 grains of 2400, my young friend went on to harvest many deer with that gun in the years that followed...That’s the image that the 44-40 has, that it is somehow puny...and of course it’s not true. It’s just that we live in a time when some handguns give the ballistics of some rifles...and the 44-40 seems modest to the extreme.

I don’t think I have ever read that the 45 ACP hardball round from a 1911 was puny. If fact it is thought of as fairly substantial...in law enforcement it is considered still today as one of the ultimate rounds for defense...even compared to the hot shot 40 S&Ws and hyper Nines. Yet any sound and modern 44-40 will give better ballistics than the old 45 ACP.

And since Starline has now been manufacturing it’s strong brass in 44-40 even the old argument that the brass is weak and doesn’t last is not standing the test of time. When I was going thru my period of buying, rebuilding, re-barreling, re-chambering, and generally raising hell with Rossi lever guns...from 1977/8 thru 1989 or so...one of the nicer Rossi carbines I got a hold of was chambered for 44-40. Using Starline brass and a Keith cast bullet over 2400 powder, I get 1500 plus fps from those 250 grainers....and almost 1250 ft.lbs of muzzle energy. And the brass lasts and lasts. That’s 44 magnum handgun power, from this 20 inch carbine. Everyone should have at least one short handy rifle and a accurate load that is powerful and shoots right to the point of aim out to around 100 plus yards, and a handgun that will handle the same load. And it sure does harvest deer well. Of course as always shot placement and bullet type are very important.

I have killed a half dozen feral dogs with this round from handguns. Keith shaped slugs along with LBT shapes are excellent but we must take care with jacketed bullets that are designed for the 44 magnum. Like the 265 grain jacketed soft point. From a 44-40 revolver expansion is going to be minimal on small game like dogs and coyotes. Certainly penetration will be excellent, and the good sized meplat on this bullet will disrupt bone and flesh well.

But for small game, wide flat nosed cast is better...for vermin and varmints the very light 180 grain jacketed hollow points loaded warm make good sense. Using both Sierra and Speer 180 grain jacketed hollow points over 19 grains of 2400 gave both slugs within 20 fps of each other and at 1147 fps average for ten shoots...five of each bullet...we are talking 520+ ft. lbs of muzzle energy for the 44 WCF. Consider this a P+ load, only tight and modern Colt and Colt clone single actions should be used. Probably running around 18000 to 19000 psi...which is above the industry standard of 14000 cup.

The Lyman Reloading Book #47 page 344 gives a load of 20 grains of 2400 under a 200 grain jacketed bullet generating 19,000 cup and 1638 fps from a 24 inch pressure barrel. But ammo manufacturing industry has to worry over black powder guns....I personally would not use these loads in even a modern clone 1873 rifle. And with 19/2400/180 JHC giving 1515 fps from the Rossi levergun, I feel that’s a top load...coyotes beware.

I found ReL #7 much better than anything else in the rifle. But with all the slow powders, pistol and rifle...the primers were critical. I found the standard pistol primers were not warm enough. Because the case of the 44-40 is so weak, you can’t put a heavy crimp on it, the case will buckle...at least they did it to me. So ignition wasn’t consistent with the slower powders...I went to Winchester’s standard/magnum handgun primers and velocity and accuracy became much better.

The 200 grain bullet seems to be the standard...and they are good. But the 180s give much better ballistics, especially cast bullets. Which will give 50 to 75 fps more velocity with the same load as jacketed. Besides wide flat nose cast slugs for years have proven they are game killers.

A friend complained that his medium loads from the 44 WCF and the 44 Spc. were leading badly, and he had hardened up his alloy but it got worse....Of course it did. His medium loads were around 800 to 900 fps. Hard lead needs pressure to slug up into the bore...if it doesn’t then gas cutting occurs and leads the bore. So I got him to soften his alloy and the fouling disappeared. 11 grains of Unique under a 180 grain cast bullet gives 1104 fps from my handguns (average five shots from each gun), and if it were a load for the handgun only, this old standby powder would do the job as good as any, and better than some. But as a rifle load it reaches it’s peak too quickly for excellent velocities...running only 1318 fps from the Rossi. Blue Dot was a surprising powder in the 44-40...not giving the highest velocities but close and excellent accuracy from both handguns...and I will take accuracy over velocity every time. 14.5/BlueDot/180 cast went 1157 fps and went into an 1 and a 1/4 at 25 yards. At 75 yards the rifle put these 180s into 1 and 3/4ths inches and that is with my older eyes. With muzzle velocity of 1520 fps.

Blue Dot under a good 200 grain cast bullet is also very good. 13/Blue Dot/200 LBT went 1110 fps from the handguns and near 1500 from the rifle. Either of these loads would take deer very cleanly to 100 or so yards. Any good reloading book will give you the standard loads using fast powders like Bullseye, WW231, Red Dot and such. And for loads in the 700 to 800 fps range they are very good. But for higher velocities even in short barreled sixguns...2400 and Blue Dot are hard to beat. I bet Winchester in 1873 and Colt in 1878 when chambering the Rifle ‘73 and the handgun Mod.P never would have thought 120 plus years later we would still be reloading this cartridge. Even with all it’s failings..like weak brass...and a real dislike for some powders...it’s a good cartridge.~Pacos Kelly

Chev. William
11-01-2018, 09:28 PM
Rem umc 44/40
body split
229688

Aint the first - unlikely the last - Winchester , WW, Starline and ancient Dominion loaded same and fired in same gun dont do it.
blackpowder only - no resizing - case fell into the chamber of the rifle it was fired in and fell out
anneal would maybe fix it.
have rem umc 45/70 cases here, no problems at all with those

Indian Joe,
Have you made and Measured a Chamber Casting of the chamber(s) in which you are getting RP Brass split bodies?
My 'feeling' is that the Chamber may be allowing the RP Brass too much 'expansion space' and it is stretching beyond its ultimate limit.
Chev. William

Chev. William
11-01-2018, 09:47 PM
can get 40 grains of black in these modern cases just heavy compression - 40 grain FFF with 205 Grain RCBS got me 1355fps out of my 24 inch rifle. ...is that a plus "B" loading??
........

Chuckling,
The finer the granulation the more You can get into a case BEFORE Compressing to seat a bullet; BUT you may find the BP compresses into a Solid Block and therefore Burns from one end instead of throughout the full body of the Charge.

Also true 44-40/44WCF cases should have a slight bottle neck shape reflecting the chamber shape Standardized in CIP and recommended in SAAMI drawings.

My Personal Opinion is that Resizing cases to match Maximum cartridge dimensions is OK and will fit any Chamber from the Minimum dimensions up to the Maximum dimensions listed fro Chambers. My Preference is a minimum chamber anyway as it requires less Resizing of Brass with each reloading.

Firearm manufacturers do not use Minimum dimension reamers as they have too short a Production life. Manufacturers use reamers that start out Large and over time and resharpening slowly get to cut smaller and smaller chambers.
How close to the Minimum dimension chamber a particular manufacturer allow is according to THEIR Production Economics and tooling replacement cost/benefit analysis.

Chev. William

indian joe
11-01-2018, 10:11 PM
Chuckling, ? didnt realise I said anything funny ?

The finer the granulation the more You can get into a case BEFORE Compressing to seat a bullet;Has not been my experience with WEIGHED charges - might be a tenth of a grain one way or tother but nothing you would notice
BUT you may find the BP compresses into a Solid Block and therefore Burns from one end instead of throughout the full body of the Charge.If that were the case would you expect good consistent velocity and nice small shot to shot spreads? I dont think so - I have the numbers of steadily increasing velocity in the 44/40 for one grain increments of added powder - I dont believe in the solid rocket fuel theory - and I did lean on that 40 grain load uite hard

Also true 44-40/44WCF cases should have a slight bottle neck shape reflecting the chamber shape Standardized in CIP and recommended in SAAMI drawings. Starline compromises that with their taper design but the shoulder forms out first shot

My Personal Opinion is that Resizing cases to match Maximum cartridge dimensions is OK and will fit any Chamber from the Minimum dimensions up to the Maximum dimensions listed fro Chambers. My Preference is a minimum chamber anyway as it requires less Resizing of Brass with each reloading.yes but you talking custom barrels - not off the shelf repros - I always aimed at the minimum amount of working of brass that would chamber smoothly - have yet to find a set of standard loading dies that satisfied that - they all overwork th brass - even neck size dies - shrink a 44 down to 41 cal then expand it back up - crazy

Firearm manufacturers do not use Minimum dimension reamers as they have too short a Production life. Manufacturers use reamers that start out Large and over time and resharpening slowly get to cut smaller and smaller chambers.

How close to the Minimum dimension chamber a particular manufacturer allow is according to THEIR Production Economics and tooling replacement cost/benefit analysis.

Yes - but how much tolerance ? Friend and I had two model 70 's in 22/250 that would happily take each others fired shells with no sizing - serial numbers were quite a ways apart - this was early 1970's when Winchester was off the rails - always beenimpressed by that.

Chev. William
......

indian joe
11-01-2018, 10:11 PM
Chuckling, ? didnt realise I said anything funny ?

The finer the granulation the more You can get into a case BEFORE Compressing to seat a bullet;Has not been my experience with WEIGHED charges - might be a tenth of a grain one way or tother but nothing you would notice
BUT you may find the BP compresses into a Solid Block and therefore Burns from one end instead of throughout the full body of the Charge.If that were the case would you expect good consistent velocity and nice small shot to shot spreads? I dont think so - I have the numbers of steadily increasing velocity in the 44/40 for one grain increments of added powder - I dont believe in the solid rocket fuel theory - and I did lean on that 40 grain load quite hard

Also true 44-40/44WCF cases should have a slight bottle neck shape reflecting the chamber shape Standardized in CIP and recommended in SAAMI drawings. Starline compromises that with their taper design but the shoulder forms out first shot

My Personal Opinion is that Resizing cases to match Maximum cartridge dimensions is OK and will fit any Chamber from the Minimum dimensions up to the Maximum dimensions listed fro Chambers. My Preference is a minimum chamber anyway as it requires less Resizing of Brass with each reloading.yes but you talking custom barrels - not off the shelf repros - I always aimed at the minimum amount of working of brass that would chamber smoothly - have yet to find a set of standard loading dies that satisfied that - they all overwork the brass - even neck size dies - shrink a 44 down to 41 cal then expand it back up - crazy

Firearm manufacturers do not use Minimum dimension reamers as they have too short a Production life. Manufacturers use reamers that start out Large and over time and resharpening slowly get to cut smaller and smaller chambers.

How close to the Minimum dimension chamber a particular manufacturer allow is according to THEIR Production Economics and tooling replacement cost/benefit analysis.

Yes - but how much tolerance ? Friend and I had two model 70 's in 22/250 that would happily take each others fired shells with no sizing - serial numbers were quite a ways apart - this was early 1970's when Winchester was off the rails - always been impressed by that.

Chev. William
......

Savvy Jack
11-02-2018, 06:32 AM
The Lyman 310 hand dies don't over work the cases BUT they don't really resize the brass either. This is what I use when not in a hurry, which is most of the time, to handload for black powder or Reloder 7, both powders are a caseload with my loads.

Good Cheer
11-02-2018, 10:33 AM
Thirty years was talking about this with the owner of one of the wonderful gun smith / gun shops in the Houston area.
A '92 Winchester 44-40 was his favorite deer hunting piece. He loaded it to suit the strength of the '92 action.

Savvy Jack
11-10-2018, 06:58 PM
Today I was able to test some factory loads and my handloads using the PressureTrace strain gauge method. With a tweek here and there I feel I am well on my way with the program. So far the results I am getting are close to what I figured.

Buffalo Bore claims their "Heavy" 44-40 ammunition is loaded at least "at" the SAMMI MAP of 11,000psi for the Piezo psi method. Thus I used Buffalo Bore as my "control" and setting the pressure results to about 11,000 psi. With this "Control" I then tested Winchester Super-X, MagTech and then my handloads. Magtech was so low I was having problems getting a reading with all the "feedback". I couldn't get the sensitivity set high enough to avoid false readings.

Below are my results.


20" MGM "Test" Barrel (not a Universal type test barrel)
PressureTrace II strain gauge and Software

Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 - 1,382fps@11,300 psi
MagTech's 44-40A Sporting - 875@6,000psi (inconclusive)
Winchester's Super-X Hunting - 1,025fps@6,594psi
22gr IMR4227, Winchester JSP - 1,386fps@12,035psi
22gr IMR4227, Sierra 210gr JHP - 1,393fps@14,454psi

230213

Also some videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiUFqhsFcg&list=PL5bplooWWnaSm7Nxjne2LeLaz2I-xTMds&index=2

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/pressure-testing

Savvy Jack
11-12-2018, 11:50 AM
PressureTrace II, 20" MGM "Test" Barrel (Not a Universal type test barrel)

Updated 12 November 2018...MY RESULTS
MagTech's 44-40A Sporting - 875 @6,000psi (inconclusive)
Winchester's Super-X Hunting - 1,025fps @6,594psi (well below SAAMI MAP)
7.9gr Unique, Lyman 427098 - 1,146fps @8,318psi (7.9gr Lyman's G1 Max Load)
40gr Skirmish BP, 200gr BigLube - 1,091fps @8,900psi (Black Powder)
25gr Reloder 7, 3D 240gr LRNFP - 1,357fps @9,613psi
23.5gr Reloder 7, Acme 240SWC - 1,284fps @9,758psi (Lee Max Load)
8.5gr Unique, Speer 200gr JHP - 1,062fps @9,787psi (Lyman G1 Max Load)
Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 - 1,382fps @11,300psi ("The Control" SAAMI MAP)
22gr IMR4227, Winchester JSP - 1,386fps @12,035psi (+P Loads)
27gr Reloder 7, XTP 200gr HP - 1,441fps @12,954psi (+P Loads)
**22gr IMR4227, Sierra 210gr JHP - 1,393fps@14,454psi (+P Loads)

**NOTE, Lyman lists 20.5gr of IMR4227 for the Sierra 210gr JHP bullet, Lyman claims 1,455fps from a 24" Universal receiver and produces 19,600 CUP.

A handloader must make a decision, create his own limitations, use the limitations he feels comfortable with.

indian joe
11-13-2018, 01:44 AM
PressureTrace II, 20" MGM "Test" Barrel (Not a Universal type test barrel)

Updated 12 November 2018...MY RESULTS
MagTech's 44-40A Sporting - 875 @6,000psi (inconclusive)
Winchester's Super-X Hunting - 1,025fps @6,594psi (well below SAAMI MAP)
7.9gr Unique, Lyman 427098 - 1,146fps @8,318psi (7.9gr Lyman's G1 Max Load)
40gr Skirmish BP, 200gr BigLube - 1,091fps @8,900psi (Black Powder)
25gr Reloder 7, 3D 240gr LRNFP - 1,357fps @9,613psi
23.5gr Reloder 7, Acme 240SWC - 1,284fps @9,758psi (Lee Max Load)
8.5gr Unique, Speer 200gr JHP - 1,062fps @9,787psi (Lyman G1 Max Load)
Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 - 1,382fps @11,300psi ("The Control" SAAMI MAP)
22gr IMR4227, Winchester JSP - 1,386fps @12,035psi (+P Loads)
27gr Reloder 7, XTP 200gr HP - 1,441fps @12,954psi (+P Loads)
**22gr IMR4227, Sierra 210gr JHP - 1,393fps@14,454psi (+P Loads)

**NOTE, Lyman lists 20.5gr of IMR4227 for the Sierra 210gr JHP bullet, Lyman claims 1,455fps from a 24" Universal receiver and produces 19,600 CUP.

A handloader must make a decision, create his own limitations, use the limitations he feels comfortable with.

Interesting numbers
The blackpowder velocity is pretty weak - is "Skirmish" code name for Wano?
I got 1355 FPS from 40 grains of FFF (not Wano) and a 205 grain boolit - 24 inch barrel though

Savvy Jack
11-13-2018, 06:56 AM
Interesting numbers
The blackpowder velocity is pretty weak - is "Skirmish" code name for Wano?
I got 1355 FPS from 40 grains of FFF (not Wano) and a 205 grain boolit - 24 inch barrel though

Skirmish is "floor sweepings" used for reenactments, blanks. I used it for CAS. Don't know anything about Wano

I have a few tests planned out for next week....I'll try to load up some Swiss FFG too

indian joe
11-13-2018, 07:18 PM
Skirmish is "floor sweepings" used for reenactments, blanks. I used it for CAS. Don't know anything about Wano

I have a few tests planned out for next week....I'll try to load up some Swiss FFG too

Memory lapse got me - Wano goes as Scheutzen at your place I think - decent powder but less velocity - 150 fps down (or more) in a 44/40.
Interesting that decent blackpowder gets velocity close to some of your tested +P smokeless loads.

Savvy Jack
11-13-2018, 07:26 PM
Interesting that decent blackpowder gets velocity close to some of your tested +P smokeless loads.

Actually original Black Powder velocities were reported to be 1,325fps from a 24" barrel. John Kort dissected some 1800's cartridges, replaced the dead primers with new primers and averaged 1,320fps. Although Winchester Super-X calls for 1,190fps, I consistently get 1,025 from a 20" barrel 1,055 from a 24" barrel.

Read this excellent article he wrote.
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2014/12/20/My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey

His highest velocity was from using 40gr Swiss FFG @ 1,379fps. This is what many gun nuts just don't understand about the 44-40. It was severely neutered in velocity and more over, 100+ yards accuracy. Bringing back velocity tightens groups considerably at distances with the right bullet and powder.....for me....has been Reloder 7 and a small variety of bullets....BUT may not be suitable for weak action weapons.

indian joe
11-14-2018, 04:25 PM
Actually original Black Powder velocities were reported to be 1,325fps from a 24" barrel. John Kort dissected some 1800's cartridges, replaced the dead primers with new primers and averaged 1,320fps. Although Winchester Super-X calls for 1,190fps, I consistently get 1,025 from a 20" barrel 1,055 from a 24" barrel.

Read this excellent article he wrote.
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2014/12/20/My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey

His highest velocity was from using 40gr Swiss FFG @ 1,379fps. This is what many gun nuts just don't understand about the 44-40. It was severely neutered in velocity and more over, 100+ yards accuracy. Bringing back velocity tightens groups considerably at distances with the right bullet and powder.....for me....has been Reloder 7 and a small variety of bullets....BUT may not be suitable for weak action weapons.

Wonder what the pressure reading is/would be on those full throttle blackpowder loads?

Savvy Jack
11-14-2018, 04:32 PM
Wonder what the pressure reading is/would be on those full throttle blackpowder loads?

:-) I shall soon find out on my party!!

Swiss is the most dense and should produce the most pressures.

Texas by God
11-14-2018, 06:12 PM
Math scares the biology out of me, but is there a formula to convert LUP to PSI? If Lead Units of Pressure was used for Black?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Chev. William
11-15-2018, 01:45 AM
From my reading and to the best of my Knowledge at this time; there is no foumula to convert LUP to PSI nor one to convert CUP to psi as the two older systems are too nonlinear to give any meaningful conversion results.

Both CIP and SAAMI looked at the Problem and gave up on finding a formula that would give useful conversions.

Chev. William

Savvy Jack
11-15-2018, 08:37 AM
Both CIP and SAAMI looked at the Problem and gave up on finding a formula that would give useful conversions


This was basically my frustration with CUP tested cartridges. Too bad those companies that publish handload information such as Lyman won't retest all CUP cartridges to give psi results. I know that too would be expensive but it is frustrating. Linear.....I'll have to remember that word for future use ;-)

Savvy Jack
11-15-2018, 09:32 AM
"Linear Frustration"

Looking further at +P loaded cartridges I noticed a similarity in the max pressure range.

SAAMI PSI MAP

.275 Rod
54,000psi
58,000 psi +P

9mm
35,000psi
38,000psi +P

38spl
17,000psi
23,000psi +P

45 Auto
21,000psi
23,000psi +P

44-40
11,000psi

My 44-40 14,000psi +P loads (if accurate) would fall into a typical 2,000 to 3,000 psi "+P" increase in pressure range. I have one load that replicates the original 1,500fps High Velocity loads.

Interestingly enough in Chuck Hawk's "45 Colt High Pressure Loads" article https://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm, he refers to the 45 Colt's 14,000psi piezo method max pressure but then goes on to mention that in Speer's Reloading Manual No. 13, they list the 45 Colt's high pressure loads in CUP at 25,000cup....and my OCD frustration of not knowing what this would be in psi. The exact same frustration with early 1900's HV factory loads and Lyman's loaded 44-40 HV pressures of 22,000cup.

Savvy Jack
11-17-2018, 01:41 PM
edited

Chev. William
11-17-2018, 02:51 PM
Savvy Jack,
I noted you reported Swiss ffg Black Powder results but I wonder if There would be an increase in Velocity for Swiss fffg Black Powder? Or would it just increase Pressures without increase in Velocity?

Even presuming the ffg is more a Rifle granulation and fffg is more of a Pistol granulation I still wonder about its relative performance at the sme volume charge.

On the small end of BP loadings I found the Following weights for various equal volume charges of Swiss BP in a .25ACP case:
(fired primer inverted in Pocket to close flash hole, Filled to level with Mouth of .614" long case)
1Fg = 5.00 gr weight average for 10 charges.

3Fg = 5.14 gr weight average for 10 charges.
4Fg = 5.42 gr weight average for 10 charges.
Null B = 5.60 gr weight average for 10 charges.

At the time of my testing, I did not have any Swiss 2Fg on hand to Try.

Also Noted that 5.00 grains weight of 3F compresses to Solid if a 50 Grain Magtech JRN Bullet is seated into the .615" long case to a Overall Length of .850".
at .840" the Case is bulged and compressed into locking in the shell holder.
Listed maximum overall length for the .25ACP is .910".

Chev. William

9.3X62AL
11-17-2018, 03:22 PM
This has been a very interesting thread to follow along with. I have a vintage 1897 Winchester '73 carbine in 44/40 WCF that I meant to take hunting this Fall, but some medical ^%&$ put the kabosh on that project. I also have a Uberti Cattleman x 4-3/4' in the caliber, so the cartridge gets some shooting in my hobby activity apart from the hunting fields.

My primary interest in loading for these lower-pressure applications is SAFETY--I don't want to bend things. I have used John Kort's RL-7 loadings in Starline brass--24.0 grains supporting Lyman #427098 sized at .429" and fired by CCI #300 primers. The principal rationale for the "100% loading density" smokeless powder was to give support to the bullet against "telescoping" while shunting down the tubular magazine and provide safe working pressures--like black powder did back in the day. Time went on, and along came SAECO #446 for the 44/40, which has a crimp groove that #427098 lacks. 24.0 grains of RL-7 provided good accuracy with both bullets (within the limits of levergun and caliber capabilities), so this powder & weight has been my go-to load for several years. Its only down-side is that when fired in the revolver it leaves a bit of unburned powder residue behind; in the longer rifle barrel this is not present.

That Winchester Hunting Super-X load is intriguing. 1025 FPS with less than 7K PSI pressures.......I would surely like to know what powder/weight produced that result. Swap in a cast 200-215 grain bullet with that charge or perhaps a bit more, and a shooter would have a very safe combination for the older iron arms and the stronger steel guns.

Savvy Jack
11-17-2018, 03:29 PM
Savvy Jack,
I noted you reported Swiss ffg Black Powder results but I wonder if There would be an increase in Velocity for Swiss fffg Black Powder? Or would it just increase Pressures without increase in Velocity?

Even presuming the ffg is more a Rifle granulation and fffg is more of a Pistol granulation I still wonder about its relative performance at the sme volume charge.

On the small end of BP loadings I found the Following weights for various equal volume charges of Swiss BP in a .25ACP case:
(fired primer inverted in Pocket to close flash hole, Filled to level with Mouth of .614" long case)
1Fg = 5.00 gr weight average for 10 charges.

3Fg = 5.14 gr weight average for 10 charges.
4Fg = 5.42 gr weight average for 10 charges.
Null B = 5.60 gr weight average for 10 charges.

At the time of my testing, I did not have any Swiss 2Fg on hand to Try.

Also Noted that 5.00 grains weight of 3F compresses to Solid if a 50 Grain Magtech JRN Bullet is seated into the .615" long case to a Overall Length of .850".
at .840" the Case is bulged and compressed into locking in the shell holder.
Listed maximum overall length for the .25ACP is .910".

Chev. William

I have not really tested any black powders of that sort in detail. I only have Swiss FFFG so I can not compare it to Swiss FFG. My thoughts are the same as yours of which way it would go. I would certainly think it would increase pressures but the burning consistency may or may not be suitable for the same or better accuracy. My Swiss FFG looks much like Reloder 7, consistent shinny granular while Kik and Goex is more powdery and dusty.

I did forget that compressing .21" does bulge the brass some, nothing to hinder use in my firearms but the chamber in the test barrel is tight and they won't chamber. I will have to regroup and use 35gr or so but it doesnt help the fact I don't have both FF and FFF to compare.

Hootmix
11-17-2018, 04:45 PM
Savvy ,, would the RL-7 loads you are loading be safe in my Uberti 1875 44-40 Outlaw's ( 1 w/71/2" & 1w/ 5" barrel's ) or do I need to load " down " ?? Been using ww231 for the 1875's .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

Outpost75
11-17-2018, 04:49 PM
Hootmix,

Here is Hercules data sheet for .44-40 featuring RL7, should be OK. You will get some burned powder in revolvers, but as long as you keep the muzzle elevated when you poke out the empties, spin the cylinder and blow out the action between reloads you should have no trouble.

230527230528

Hootmix
11-17-2018, 05:04 PM
Thank you , Outpost I will write these in my Lyman Book , under the pistol section .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

Savvy Jack
11-17-2018, 05:36 PM
Savvy ,, would the RL-7 loads you are loading be safe in my Uberti 1875 44-40 Outlaw's ( 1 w/71/2" & 1w/ 5" barrel's ) or do I need to load " down " ?? Been using ww231 for the 1875's .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

Hootmix, to answer you directly.....There is no reason the loads I posted with results below 11,300 should not be safe in a standard handgun BUT BUT BUT...only use the published loads that Outpost refereed to with confidence...and any other with great hesitation.


....but to continue I add...

There is always that "yeah but"....and this is it. There are only two "official" published Reloder 7 loads that I have seen. The one Outpost75 just posted and the data Lee publishes on their 44-40 three die pamphlet. Lee publishes the same load as the 2005 Alliant data. I also have an "unofficial" confirmation from an Alliant rep on the 240gr bullet load. I can't say if a load is safe or not, I don't have that right. That's the part I mentioned somewhere about we all have to make our own decisions and limitations and what chances we are willing to take.

I trust my findings but no one else should. I only use my "11,300" psi and lower loads in my standard revolvers.

Here is John Kort's take on using Reloder 7 in the Winchester 73'
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?2199-Reloader-7&p=25644&viewfull=1#post25644

Hootmix
11-17-2018, 07:28 PM
From what i'v just read the primers are more of a concern ,, I have WW. & Fed. ( both LP & LR ) and I can down load RL-7 for the pistol's ???

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

Savvy Jack
11-17-2018, 08:06 PM
From what i'v just read the primers are more of a concern ,, I have WW. & Fed. ( both LP & LR ) and I can down load RL-7 for the pistol's ???

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

Yes, I'd use caution using WLP or other magnum primers in the loads that border the 11,000psi limit. Just as with piezo methods, I do get pressure fluctuations. I use CCI-300. I do have some Remington 2 1/2 primers but they are hard to find locally.

In one chart, I show an extreme spread of 2,565psi (Hi 10,711psi)(low 8,146psi) but most are only 1,500psi spreads.
The Buffalo Bore spread was 11,703H and 11,025L, spread of 677psi. Everything was above 11,000 and is my "control" load for the tests. I doubt BB uses Magnum primers but if they do, non-magnum primers is another buffer zone.
.

Savvy Jack
11-18-2018, 05:53 PM
Wonder what the pressure reading is/would be on those full throttle blackpowder loads?

Joe I just can't load up full BP loads for the tight chamber of the test barrel. When I compress the powder .21" it expands the brass just enough to not chamber. Chamber fines in my weapons.

With that I only loaded up a few Accurate Mold 43-215C bullets in Winchester brass with 32gr/w - 35gr/V of Kik FFFG with a .10" compression.

Kik FFFG
32gr/weight - 35gr/Volume
.10" compression
43-215C .429dia/ .665 length
Winchester Brass
1.295 Case
1.602 AOL
WLP
Seating depth is .358

Bullet roll crimped with an RCBS Cowboy die just below the crimp groove on top of the forward driving band.

230619

Savvy Jack
11-18-2018, 08:39 PM
Group II Rifles ONLY
Lyman's 49th page 299 shows 20gr of 2400 with a Speer 200gr JHP. Using a 24" Universal Receiver with a 1-36 twist. Lyman reports 1,638fps @ 19,000CUP using Winchester LP's

I have loaded up a few for testing Thanksgiving morning...ya'll pray for me :-)

Used Starline Brass
Bullet Length - .662"
AOL - 1.598"
Case Length - 1.292
Sierra 210gr SJHP #8620 .4295"
Seating Depth - .359"

I shot such loads back about Sept 2014 during some ballistics Gel testing. These are very unpleasant to shoot in my Magnum revolver (44-40 Cylinder) and are quite sharp in the Marlin 1894CB rifle. Accuracy was not that great with other bullets and this will be my first with the Sierra 210gr JHC. I shot very little of these loads since they were not necessary what I was looking for.

Results from a 7 1/2" barrel Magnum frame Revolver. 10' from muzzle.

230631
230632
230633
230634
230635

Savvy Jack
11-18-2018, 08:40 PM
Sept 1st, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UODYQmRhZ1M&list=PL5bplooWWnaT1z4kL1YWUVfnzkKMhN3b6
230636

Savvy Jack
11-22-2018, 11:40 AM
Joe I just can't load up full BP loads for the tight chamber of the test barrel. When I compress the powder .21" it expands the brass just enough to not chamber. Chamber fines in my weapons.

With that I only loaded up a few Accurate Mold 43-215C bullets in Winchester brass with 32gr/w - 35gr/V of Kik FFFG with a .10" compression.

Kik FFFG
32gr/weight - 35gr/Volume
.10" compression
43-215C .429dia/ .665 length
Winchester Brass
1.295 Case
1.602 AOL
WLP
Seating depth is .358

Bullet roll crimped with an RCBS Cowboy die just below the crimp groove on top of the forward driving band.

230619

As expected, Pressuretrace shows this load to produced an estimated 6,043psi, 5,000psi lower than SAAMI max 11,000psi

Chev. William
11-22-2018, 01:03 PM
Savvy Jack,
Perhaps in the Future, you might obtain some Swiss fffg Black Powder and Try a load closer to the 40 grains of the originals.
From my 'playing with volume vs weight in my .25ACP experiments the Swiss BP might allow you to reach the 40 grain load with only 0.1" compression.

I know Buffalo Arms has carried Swiss BP and I have bought five one pound cans at a time form them, usually I buy several granulations at one purchase, such as 2fg, 3fg, and Null B, at one time. Currently I have on hand Swiss !fg, 2fg, 3fg, 4fg, and Null B in one pound cans that I use for my experimental loads in .25 cal Cartridges. One Grain of Null B under the other granulations seems to give a Very Consistent ignition in my longer straight case Wildcats.

Chev. William

Savvy Jack
11-22-2018, 02:02 PM
Savvy Jack,
Perhaps in the Future, you might obtain some Swiss fffg Black Powder and Try a load closer to the 40 grains of the originals.
From my 'playing with volume vs weight in my .25ACP experiments the Swiss BP might allow you to reach the 40 grain load with only 0.1" compression.

I know Buffalo Arms has carried Swiss BP and I have bought five one pound cans at a time form them, usually I buy several granulations at one purchase, such as 2fg, 3fg, and Null B, at one time. Currently I have on hand Swiss !fg, 2fg, 3fg, 4fg, and Null B in one pound cans that I use for my experimental loads in .25 cal Cartridges. One Grain of Null B under the other granulations seems to give a Very Consistent ignition in my longer straight case Wildcats.

Chev. William



I have Swiss FFG. Problem is, when I compress the powder, it expands the brass just enough to not fit in my test barrels tight chamber. Fits in my rifles and revolvers fine. I think what I will do is use some 200gr Magma bullets since they seat shallower that the 427098's do.

Savvy Jack
11-22-2018, 05:20 PM
The information below is a "food for thought" and not intended as "load data". Use at own risk, don't be stupid!

Today I shot three of Lyman's Max loads for Group II rifles. The results are interesting.
Lyman's 49th page 299 lists several loads for strong action rifles. To try and see if I could get some sort of pressure comparison, I used the Pressuretrace II with a strain gauge.

The manual shows Winchester brass, WLP's, trim to 1.295, AOL of 1.600, Speer 200gr JHP #4425 and Lyman's 427098. I used the JHP bullets but I substituted the 427098 with the 43-215C, the 427098 replica that has a crimp groove forward of the driving band. Lyman's 427098 is 205gr while my 43-215C are 217gr.

The light blue highlights published powder loads BUT some components may be different such as using CCI-300 primers rather than Winchester WLP's. All seems fairly consistent over-all. I did see a large difference in the two 20.5gr IMR4227 loads. The first (11,332psi) I used CCI-300's then WLP's were used for the second test that resulted in slightly higher pressures...12,602psi. With the exception of those two loads, the rest of Lyman's max Group II loads are highlighted in red. I do not have any Green Dot or Red Dot powders so I did not test those...and probably won't. My chronograph finally died so I am missing some velocities.....I usually load up ten cartridges but since the chronograph died, I only shot 5 each. I will take the other five each and get a velocity later.I just wont be able to merge the added velocity in with a particular graph. I know, there is always something.

There may be errors and typo's so again, do not use this as "published" loads.
THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS

230859

Savvy Jack
11-26-2018, 08:42 AM
This is some pretty interesting information from "Unclenick" about 44-40 chamber pressure testing with the strain gauge. Based on this information, my consistent amateurish results, along with other information...I am confident that a responsible load of Reloder 7 is safe for all 44-40 rifles. However, with that we all know that each of us as individuals must make our own decisions of what risks we are willing to take and be willing to accept and/or suffer certain consequences. For those of you that want to stick with published loads, there are no CURRENT published loads for using Reloder 7...BUT there is for other "+P" loads. Lyman's 49th manual lists such "higher pressure" loads on page 299 and page 300.

Now back to Reloder 7. Old data shows 23.5gr of RL7 for a 240gr lead bullet as well as Remington 2 1/2 primers. The data does not specify which design bullet other than the 240gr. Looking at the chart I posted in my previous post in conjunction with the below quoted information, a 240gr SWC did well with 23.5gr of RL7. A 240gr LRNFP did well with sightly more powder both resulting at below 11,000psi chamber pressures using CCI-300 primers. 25gr of RL7 did well for me too with the 200gr Magma type bullet from Acme as well as the 43-210B (copy of the 427098). Both staying below 11,000psi. Again, use extreme caustion...this is MY amateurish testing results.

An important item to remember is that some bullets sit deeper than others. The SWC's, Lyman's 427098 and Accurate's 43-2XX usually sit deeper than a Magma/LazerCast design bullets. These deeper seating bullets will usually sit on top of a caseload of RL7 powder in the 25gr area. The grains will very with different bullets....25gr with a shorter skirt Magma bullet will not sit on the powder. For the shorter skirt bullets like the Magma, the bullet will normally sit on 28gr of RL7 and MY results with the 28gr loads produced pressures in the "+P" or just higher than SAAMI's max of 11,000psi.....a range of about 12,000-13,000psi...NOT necessarily safe for Winchester 73" type weak action rifles.

As a comparison, shown in the chart in the previous post, my use of Lyman's high pressure loads yield much higher results than my loads using RL7. Lyman's high pressures loads using powders like IMR4227, Red Dot, 2400 and Unique result in pressures in the 14,000psi to 16,000psi range and topping out at 21,900psi....NOT TO BE USED in the Winchester 73' type weak action rifles.

Has been a very educational and well rewarded venture!



QUOTED...
".....44-40 pressures, SAAMI barrels have minimum chambers and nominal bore dimensions. To mimic one, you have to get a barrel blank made to their bore cross-sectional area dimensions and then chamber it with a special reamer ground to produce the SAAMI minimum chamber diameters and not run it in past half a thousandth beyond what produces SAAMI minimum headspace. That's ±¼ of a thousandth, which can take some skill to do. Standard reamers are commonly made a little wider so they can be resharpened without losing dimensional precision. I don't know if you followed these practices with your test barrel or not, but as Denton Bramwell points out in the article I linked to, most chambers made with standard reamers can expect to produce lower numbers.

SAAMI test barrels are fired with the cartridge manipulated to ensure the powder has fallen back over the flash hole. They are not tapped against anything to do this, as that packs the powder which can lower its burn rate a little. They want worst case highest pressure, so they just turn the case around to let the powder fall back to the rear, then load it carefully so as to avoid shifting the powder position. If you don't do that, you will get lower numbers than they do.

For rifle cartridges, SAAMI expects no more than 4% standard deviation in pressure. If your readings produce a higher SD than that, you are probably using a sample too small to be relied on to produce a good SD number. SAAMI uses ten rounds. Our own board member, Statshooter, who is a professor of statistics, says 30 rounds are needed. Denton Bramwell feels 15 rounds give him what he needs to know. So, why does SAAMI just use 10? They accept the SD results produced by 10 can be off on the high side by two standard errors (about another 2.5%), so they have a second number in addition to the MAP called the Maximum Probable Lot Mean, or MPLM, that allows the next sample of 10 from the same lot could produce a standard deviation that was different by that much. So, while the MAP is 11,000 psi, they allow they might get an average as high as 11,300 psi from another random sample of 10 from the same lot, and that is acceptable. They have a still higher number, called the Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) that allows that bullet bonding with the case and other factors can produce an increase in pressure as a lot of ammunition ages, and for the 44-40 that number is 11,700 psi. So, in effect, they are saying 11,700 psi is the safe limit, but, wait, there's more: All those numbers, the MAP, the MPLM, and the MPSM are averages produced by 10 round samples. The individual rounds making up that average will go above and below that average. SAAMI controls that by allowing what they call the Maximum Extreme Variation (MEV) which is the maximum spread between pressure readings for any of the 10 rounds in any sample taken at any time in the life of the lot. For the 44-40, the MEV is 2300 psi (this has to be calculated per the standard's instructions; it is not in a table). Theoretically, you could have aged loads centered on 11,700 psi whose 10 shots had one round as high as 13770 psi that would still be acceptable to SAAMI (though it is extremely improbable as it requires all 9 other shots to be exactly 11,470 psi). Mostly, though, you don't see individual rounds more than about ten percent above the MAP.

Even with all of that care, the fact is the absolute pressures are not exactly knowable. SAAMI reference cartridges are made in lots that are sent around to member's test facilities every two years to watch for reading changes. The members use SAAMI standard calibration methods (see the SAAMI standard) and report their results for both pressure and velocity from SAAMI standard test barrels. Interestingly, these vary more than the SAAMI standard deviation limit. The old 1992 standard gave an example for each method firing the same lots of reference loads, and the copper crushers, using targe tables for calibration, produced over 23% difference in average pressure for 10 shots among 9 labs. The transducers, using hydraulic pressure for calibration, produced over 11% difference in 10-shot averages among 7 labs. The reported results for each set of tests from each lab were, in turn, averaged and the final average was declared to be the pressure value that reference lot produced. This way, in effect, the reference lot pressure in the example was evaluated by looking at 90 and 70 total sample shots for the crusher and transducer, respectively. It compensates for average measurement calibration and operation errors, combined, to give a practical expected correct reading.

That approach may seem a bit tenuous, but understand the objective is to get everyone producing ammunition to the same standard, even if its absolute accuracy is not perfect. When a manufacturer wants to load a million rounds in a particular chambering, he buys a sample of a current lot of reference ammunition for that chambering and fires it in his own test equipment and compares his results to its agreed-upon rated pressure. This gives him a calibration factor for correcting his equipment's output to match the average output produced by the rest of the test labs that measured the lot. In the end, he doesn't load to the raw pressure readings his equipment provides, but to pressure readings corrected by what the reference load told him was his equipment's error factor.

So, if you wanted to compare your strain gauge results to commercial equipment, you would ideally get some SAAMI reference ammunition to calibrate to. Unfortunately, reference ammunition is only sold to ammunition makers or others who can show a real need to have it. Otherwise, I think, they fear a run on it would occur that could interfere with the industry.

One thing you could do is ask Buffalo Bore if they use the SAAMI reference ammunition and, assuming they do, you could probably ask them what their calibrated reading was for their most recent lot. You would still have to condition it in the same temperature it was conditioned and tested in by Buffalo Bore and handle the cartridges to keep powder to the rear, but you could get a correction factor to multiply your strain gauge factor by through shooting it and claim to match their pressure fairly closely. That sort of secondary standard approach is probably as close to absolute as amateur equipment can be made to be.

I notice all Hodgdon's psi-rated loads for the 44-40 exceed the SAAMI MAP, while their CUP-rated loads (in their pistol section) do not. Makes me wonder if someone confused the digits? It's still below the CIP's pressures, but those are measured on a different style of transducer (a channel transducer).

Regarding CUP ratings in manuals, while the correlation between CUP and psi is too poor for reliably converting one unit to the other over a range of chamberings, within a single chambering the conversion by the ratio of the CUP and psi maps within the SAAMI system is going to be close enough for practical work. That is, 11000 psi divided by 13000 CUP is 0.846 psi/CUP for the 44-40, so you can take the CUP numbers in the Lyman Manual and multiply them by 0.846 to get a reasonable expectation of psi. Conversely, dividing psi by that same number will come close to CUP. ~Unclenick"

Savvy Jack
12-02-2018, 04:21 PM
Indian Joe,

Today I got all my Black Powder data out and refreshed my memory since it has been so long. I got out my RP brass and singled out some 1.296" brass. I resized them. something I don't normally do when shooting but this time I had to in order for them to fit the MGM test barrel's tight chamber. The reason is that when compressing black powder to .21", it can bulge the thinner Winchester and Starline brass.

So I resized the brass with the RCBS Cowboy die. I expanded the brass using the "M" die for the 44 magnum. I then dumped in 40gr of Swiss FFG, tap settled and then compressed the powder with a modified expander plug. This compacts the powder and then you can get a good measurement on how deep a bullet will seat. This is done with the die rather than the bullet because the seating die will deform the bullet. I used the Lyman 427098 that seats deep so I needed .21" compression of which the bullet crimped on top of the forward driving band rather than above it on the bullet o'give. This gives me an AOL of 1.615" which still works fine for my firearms. I will shoot them first chance I get and report on the pressures I get.

231405
40gr Swiss FFG unsettled. RP brass

231407
Cases on right are tapped to settle and the powder is approx .12" below the case mouth. Cases on left have been compressed with the compression die to approx .32" below the case mouth. The 427098 bullet is usually seated approx .34" just above the forward driving band and crimped on the bullet o'give. However, due to the lack of the extra space that the semi-balloon head cases gave, this is where I make up the difference by crimping on the top side of the forward driving band...about a .05" difference to make up for that lost powder space. That extra space in the semi-balloon head brass held an additional 3grs of BP in my testings.


231406
This wood dowel should shed some light on the measurements

231408
Here is the powder compression die.

231409
After I seated the bullets and gave them a slight roll crimp with the RCBS Cowboy...I then ran them through the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp. Sometimes that roll crimp will cause the brass to bulge out a tad just below the crimp and cause them to not chamber in tight chambers. The profile crimp smooths that bulge back down without distorting the bullet. It can only be used on 44-40 style bullets thus the "profile" name.

Savvy Jack
12-03-2018, 01:24 PM
Indian Joe, here is another topic you might can get some information from.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39912.0.html

Chev. William
12-04-2018, 01:36 PM
Joe I just can't load up full BP loads for the tight chamber of the test barrel. When I compress the powder .21" it expands the brass just enough to not chamber. Chamber fines in my weapons.

With that I only loaded up a few Accurate Mold 43-215C bullets in Winchester brass with 32gr/w - 35gr/V of Kik FFFG with a .10" compression.

Kik FFFG
32gr/weight - 35gr/Volume
.10" compression
43-215C .429dia/ .665 length
Winchester Brass
1.295 Case
1.602 AOL
WLP
Seating depth is .358

Bullet roll crimped with an RCBS Cowboy die just below the crimp groove on top of the forward driving band.

230619

Savvy Jack,
I have been thinking back on your problem of compressed Charges 'growing ' your cases so they will not chamber in your Test Barrel's Minimum size Chamber.

Have you considered making o rbuying a Sizing Die for 44-40 made to SAAMI Maximum Cartridge Size and without a expander or depriming punch installed?
Then you could run the compressed Charge loaded Cartridge into this sizing die and force the Case back to within Maximum cartridge dimensions, which according to SAAMI drawings would always fit a SAAMI Minimum size chamber.

Chev. William

Savvy Jack
12-04-2018, 09:54 PM
Savvy Jack,
I have been thinking back on your problem of compressed Charges 'growing ' your cases so they will not chamber in your Test Barrel's Minimum size Chamber.

Have you considered making o rbuying a Sizing Die for 44-40 made to SAAMI Maximum Cartridge Size and without a expander or depriming punch installed?
Then you could run the compressed Charge loaded Cartridge into this sizing die and force the Case back to within Maximum cartridge dimensions, which according to SAAMI drawings would always fit a SAAMI Minimum size chamber.

Chev. William

I may could but aside from the GMG barrel, I really have no further use for one since the fit in my rifles and most revolvers.

indian joe
12-05-2018, 09:01 PM
Indian Joe,

Today I got all my Black Powder data out and refreshed my memory since it has been so long. I got out my RP brass and singled out some 1.296" brass. I resized them. something I don't normally do when shooting but this time I had to in order for them to fit the MGM test barrel's tight chamber. The reason is that when compressing black powder to .21", it can bulge the thinner Winchester and Starline brass.

So I resized the brass with the RCBS Cowboy die. I expanded the brass using the "M" die for the 44 magnum. I then dumped in 40gr of Swiss FFG, tap settled and then compressed the powder with a modified expander plug. This compacts the powder and then you can get a good measurement on how deep a bullet will seat. This is done with the die rather than the bullet because the seating die will deform the bullet. I used the Lyman 427098 that seats deep so I needed .21" compression of which the bullet crimped on top of the forward driving band rather than above it on the bullet o'give. This gives me an AOL of 1.615" which still works fine for my firearms. I will shoot them first chance I get and report on the pressures I get.

231405
40gr Swiss FFG unsettled. RP brass

231407
Cases on right are tapped to settle and the powder is approx .12" below the case mouth. Cases on left have been compressed with the compression die to approx .32" below the case mouth. The 427098 bullet is usually seated approx .34" just above the forward driving band and crimped on the bullet o'give. However, due to the lack of the extra space that the semi-balloon head cases gave, this is where I make up the difference by crimping on the top side of the forward driving band...about a .05" difference to make up for that lost powder space. That extra space in the semi-balloon head brass held an additional 3grs of BP in my testings.


231406
This wood dowel should shed some light on the measurements

231408
Here is the powder compression die.

231409
After I seated the bullets and gave them a slight roll crimp with the RCBS Cowboy...I then ran them through the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp. Sometimes that roll crimp will cause the brass to bulge out a tad just below the crimp and cause them to not chamber in tight chambers. The profile crimp smooths that bulge back down without distorting the bullet. It can only be used on 44-40 style bullets thus the "profile" name.


Jack
(this is old but all I have) feb 2016 I chronoed my 44/40 - rifle - 40 grains homemade powder (yeah heavy compression load but got it in) under a 205 grain RCBS boolit = 1355FPS ---- am certain my powder is better now than then -- by how much better is a WA guess ?.
I would not be surprised to see you get 1425FPS or so with a 40 grain load of Swiss in a 24 inch barrel rifle ? if so - tis interesting what would be the pressure generated?
ps anytime I tell ya grains ---its by weight on a good balance scale - no such thing as grains volume so I dont do that ....... yeah I know everybody wants to argue about this - I establish a suitable load by volume, cut a measure, then, weight it for future reference.
I have a 44magnum die set for the old super simplex presses and has been real handy loading 44/40 - one of those dies (the boolit seating die I think) is just right size to reduce the 44/40 case body just a whisker if they get a little oversize - just kisses it back a little and works fine on loaded rounds too.

Savvy Jack
12-05-2018, 11:28 PM
Great information!!


Jack
ps anytime I tell ya grains ---its by weight on a good balance scale - no such thing as grains volume..

Me too. I weigh all my BP loads. I add or reduce as needed to get a particulate powder compression with a particular bullet. Note what it is for that batch of powder and load away!! I have been guilty to say 40gr/w meaning weight or 40/v meaning volume so some of those other folks understand the difference.

Savvy Jack
12-07-2018, 11:11 PM
Indian Joe,
I ran across some old gel test photos. Part of some of what John Kort sent me to test for him.

231690


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nkgd5Eq6tM

Savvy Jack
12-22-2018, 03:18 PM
A very interesting thing happened today. I was finishing up my pressure testing today and shot a lot of groups. I decided to shoot some more black powder loads as well. This time, however, I used some original BP brass cases. A variation of Western, REM-UMC and WRA cases. four of the WRA cases used small pistol primers.

First, I shot 15 modern RP cases and 5 Winchester cases. I used 39gr of Swiss FFG in the Winchester cases and 40gr in everything else. 39gr of Swiss FFG gave me an average of 1,221fps from my 20" test barrel producing 8,843 PSI. The 40gr in the RP cases resulted in 1,257fps and 8,648 psi. Here is the kicker.....

I used 40gr of Swiss FFG in 16 original semi-balloon head cases of which four were small pistol primers. Same powder, same bullets, basically the same primers.

1,373fps @ 14,100psi!!!!!! HMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!!


On another note, to include the BP tests, I shot 42 pressure testing groups of at least 10 shots per group over the past few months.
Included are all of Lyman's 49th, page 299 and 300, MAX loads for both Group I and Group II rifles using Unique, IMR4227 and 2400 with the published bullets, primers, case lengths and AOL's.

All of my Group I loads ranged between 6,594psi to 9,389psi
My "Control", Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" was set to 11,300psi.
All of my Group II loads came in between 11,363psi to 17,837 psi

What I failed to do was shoot all loads at the same out side air temps. The "Control" was shot in about 55 deg, some loads shot around 35 deg and the rest also around 55deg. This does change things a little but not too awful much. Some could increase as much as 1,500psi and those shot in 55deg could increase in 90deg weather.

However, out of all of the loads I have ever come up with on my own, only TWO were higher than the Lyman's MAX pressure results of 17,830psi. Those two were 19,500psi and 19,628psi.

Only one Reloder 7 load came in over 13,500psi and it was a 240gr LRNFL bullet and it achieved 1,446fps.
Other 240gr LRNFP bullets with a lighter load stayed below 11,000psi

Most case capacity Reloder 7 loads stayed between 10,000psi and 13,000psi. Even a caseload of Trailboss surpassed SAAMI max out to 15,182psi

The Pressuretrace II system was well worth the $$$ for a little piece of mind as well as closing the mouths of a few Mr, been handloading for 55 years, Know-It-Alls.

indian joe
12-22-2018, 10:00 PM
A very interesting thing happened today. I was finishing up my pressure testing today and shot a lot of groups. I decided to shoot some more black powder loads as well. This time, however, I used some original BP brass cases. A variation of Western, REM-UMC and WRA cases. four of the WRA cases used small pistol primers.

First, I shot 15 modern RP cases and 5 Winchester cases. I used 39gr of Swiss FFG in the Winchester cases and 40gr in everything else. 39gr of Swiss FFG gave me an average of 1,221fps from my 20" test barrel producing 8,843 PSI. The 40gr in the RP cases resulted in 1,257fps and 8,648 psi. Here is the kicker.....

I used 40gr of Swiss FFG in 16 original semi-balloon head cases of which four were small pistol primers. Same powder, same bullets, basically the same primers.

1,373fps @ 14,100psi!!!!!! HMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!!


On another note, to include the BP tests, I shot 42 pressure testing groups of at least 10 shots per group over the past few months.
Included are all of Lyman's 49th, page 299 and 300, MAX loads for both Group I and Group II rifles using Unique, IMR4227 and 2400 with the published bullets, primers, case lengths and AOL's.

All of my Group I loads ranged between 6,594psi to 9,389psi
My "Control", Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" was set to 11,300psi.
All of my Group II loads came in between 11,363psi to 17,837 psi

What I failed to do was shoot all loads at the same out side air temps. The "Control" was shot in about 55 deg, some loads shot around 35 deg and the rest also around 55deg. This does change things a little but not too awful much. Some could increase as much as 1,500psi and those shot in 55deg could increase in 90deg weather.

However, out of all of the loads I have ever come up with on my own, only TWO were higher than the Lyman's MAX pressure results of 17,830psi. Those two were 19,500psi and 19,628psi.

Only one Reloder 7 load came in over 13,500psi and it was a 240gr LRNFL bullet and it achieved 1,446fps.
Other 240gr LRNFP bullets with a lighter load stayed below 11,000psi

Most case capacity Reloder 7 loads stayed between 10,000psi and 13,000psi. Even a caseload of Trailboss surpassed SAAMI max out to 15,182psi

The Pressuretrace II system was well worth the $$$ for a little piece of mind as well as closing the mouths of a few Mr, been handloading for 55 years, Know-It-Alls.

Jack
just for fun here (I have no science for any of this - some practical common sense, backed in places by chrono testing loads)
So its all supposition
1) blackpowder needs barrel time to do its stuff - yes the initial pressure spike is quick but - short barrels + coarse powder = we dont get the max out of it

sidebar - the mounted cowboy action people - first time I saw this I thought - crazy - gal races down the arena shooting balloons on a stick away from the crowd - yeah ok, safe enough with shot charges, but she wheeled that pony, pulled another gun and helter skelter back shooting towards the crowd - thats a no go - so a bit of research and finds they rely on the unburnt part of a blackpowder charge to bust the balloon

2) fifteen years back (or so) myth abounded and everybody (nearly) in the long range game was recommending Federal magnum rifle primers for blackpowder loads - I fell for it even tho it made no sense at the time - still got several boxes of those primers to use up someplace where it doesent matter because my gut feeling turned out right and and all that extra blast did was open my groups up some. (enough to see it)

So what if?? the lesser ignition charge of those small pistol primers is giving a bit more barrel time - you only have a 20 inch test barrel? and FF is too coarse for best results in a short barrel - a little more barrel time for the charge to do its stuff ?

We get significantly increased velocity from our 24 inch Uberti compared to the 20 inch carbine (44/40 - 200grain boolit - FFFg powder) - I reckon you need at least a 30 inch tube to get the best out of a decent charge of FFg (proly needs more than that) - we see this in reverse with a 22RF - 18inch barrel is max - 24 inch sees a significant velocity loss - that load ran out of steam.

Outpost75
12-22-2018, 10:17 PM
I'm with Indian Joe here. BP develops full velocity and pressure by exploiting adiabatic expansion from longer barrels. Only Swiss BP is as good as old Army A5 which was used for .45-70 Trapdoor, Schofield and Navy line throwing loads into the Vietnam era. When I was an enlisted rating we still had converted Springfield trapdoors used as line throwers, with 26-inch barrels, which began to be replaced by H&Rs in the Zumwalt era. I used to pull a few of the wads, expand the case mouth, seat Remington 405-grain softpoints over the BP charge with a blob of lithium grease and had the ship's machinist braze an M1 front sight and open rear from an M1911 pistol on them, cutting down the blade to zero and they were good enough to pop mines at 200 yards off the fantail. Great fun!

Savvy Jack
12-23-2018, 12:05 AM
I'm with Indian Joe here. BP develops full velocity and pressure by exploiting adiabatic expansion from longer barrels. Only Swiss BP is as good as old Army A5 which was used for .45-70 Trapdoor, Schofield and Navy line throwing loads into the Vietnam era.

All but one black powder loads were between 6,043 and 8,843psi...1,100fps to 1,221fps from the shorter 20" carbine length barrel. One group using Original balloon semi-head cases produced a surprised 14,100 avg psi and 1,373fps.

10 shot groups

32gr Kik was 6,043psi no velocity reading (217gr 43-215C)
40gr Skirmish FFFG was 8,900psi (200gr Big Lube Bullet)
40gr Swiss FFG was 1,257fps and 8,648psi (Lyman 210gr 427098 Bullet)
39gr Swiss FFG was 1,221fps and 8,843psi (205gr 43-208A Bullet)
40gr Swiss FFG was 1,373fps and 14,100psi (210gr Lyman 427098 Bullet)

Curiosity is killing me about the semi-balloon head cases producing such results. I may have to visit that again but I am out of Swiss FFG and don't plan on getting any more. I have some Goex FFFG I may try instead.

Outpost75
12-23-2018, 12:24 AM
I think you might still have a calibration issue with this barrel. What does factory ammo do?

Savvy Jack
12-23-2018, 12:44 AM
I think you might still have a calibration issue with this barrel. What does factory ammo do?

Out of over 430 shots, the only abnormal group was the one black powder group...wierd

Ed here is my report...so to speak.

https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/44-40-handloads-strain-gauge-testing/

Cast_outlaw
12-23-2018, 01:44 AM
Could the semi-balloon cases seal the chamber better because they are weaker?

Savvy Jack
12-23-2018, 09:07 AM
Could the semi-balloon cases seal the chamber better because they are weaker?

Could be, whatever it is I like it!! I am going to load them up again but I only have Goex FFFg and Kik. We will see if this was a fluke or if It will repeat itself.

indian joe
12-23-2018, 05:32 PM
Could be, whatever it is I like it!! I am going to load them up again but I only have Goex FFFg and Kik. We will see if this was a fluke or if It will repeat itself.

hMMMM ---- I went back and re read .....I had focussed on the bit about small pistol primers thinking that may have made the difference - but second time round ????? were all the balloon head cases small pistol primers or only four of them ?

Wonder does the whole ingition train change by heaps when the primer pocket protrudes a tenth inch into the base of the charge rather than flat at the base of it ???

Outpost75
12-23-2018, 05:47 PM
hMMMM ---- I went back and re read .....I had focussed on the bit about small pistol primers thinking that may have made the difference - but second time round ????? were all the balloon head cases small pistol primers or only four of them ?

Wonder does the whole ingition train change by heaps when the primer pocket protrudes a tenth inch into the base of the charge rather than flat at the base of it ???

I think you are onto something there.

A mini flash-tube, which exposes more surface area of the charge at once to the fire!

Savvy Jack
12-23-2018, 06:33 PM
I think you are onto something there.

A mini flash-tube, which exposes more surface area of the charge at once to the fire!

I really hope this was a fluke BUT this next time I will separate all like brass and those small pistol primers. Looking back at the individual results they did not change anything much and all 27 shots averaged 14,100psi.

My RP cases have less volumeteric area so 40gr of compressed Swiss FFG causes the 427098 to be crimped at the bottom of the forward driving band. 40gr of Swiss FFG compressed in the semi-balloon head cases crimps the bullet flush with the top of the forward driving band, not over it.

I am out of Swiss so I have to run Goex FFFG for this followup test. I know its still like apples and oranges but...........

RP cases about 41gr H20, Starline about 42gr H2O and the Semi-balloon head cases are about 44gr H20

I always measure 40gr by weight and then check compression. I never compress over .21".....I can't ;-)

indian joe
12-23-2018, 11:24 PM
I really hope this was a fluke BUT this next time I will separate all like brass and those small pistol primers. Looking back at the individual results they did not change anything much and all 27 shots averaged 14,100psi.

My RP cases have less volumeteric area so 40gr of compressed Swiss FFG causes the 427098 to be crimped at the bottom of the forward driving band. 40gr of Swiss FFG compressed in the semi-balloon head cases crimps the bullet flush with the top of the forward driving band, not over it.

I am out of Swiss so I have to run Goex FFFG for this followup test. I know its still like apples and oranges but...........

RP cases about 41gr H20, Starline about 42gr H2O and the Semi-balloon head cases are about 44gr H20

I always measure 40gr by weight and then check compression. I never compress over .21".....I can't ;-)



You guys are gonna have me scratching back through my scrap brass bin (lucky I dont throw stuff out when I should) I can remember scrapping 20 or more old Dominion brand cases with the semi solid head - nothing wrong with em except old age .........

Savvy Jack
12-24-2018, 12:13 PM
You guys are gonna have me scratching back through my scrap brass bin (lucky I dont throw stuff out when I should) I can remember scrapping 20 or more old Dominion brand cases with the semi solid head - nothing wrong with em except old age .........

Anneal them if they are old and brittle.

Larry Gibson
12-25-2018, 09:25 AM
If the psi measurement was correct it could very well be, at the psi levels you are measuring, simply the difference in the brass cases. The very few balloon head 44-40 cases I have are quite a bit thinner in the web/body area which is under the gauge in your set up (a correct setup BTW). Some cases require more psi to expand to exert sufficient pressure on the chamber wall for "stain" measurement. The thinner/softer the case in that area of measurement the higher the psi reading can be because the less psi is contained by the case itself.

To find out simply pull the bullets/powder from 10 factory loads and load them into the balloon cases. Test both the reloaded 44-40s along with a test of the same factory. All else being equal the balloon head case loads should give less psi because the case volume is greater. If the psi is equal or greater than the factory load psi then the balloon head brass is softer/weaker and that is why the initial psi reading is greater......because the balloon head cases are not containing as much psi as the newer solid head cases are.

I am not familiar with the data input for the Pressure Trace system. Is there "offset" data put into the it for the steel type used in test barrel?

Savvy Jack
12-25-2018, 10:36 AM
hmmmmmmm

Savvy Jack
12-29-2018, 01:52 PM
My Marlin 1894CB 260 yard shots this morning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9czzDmbAnk

Video replaced with a High Definition version

Savvy Jack
01-01-2019, 05:43 PM
Here is another one from this morning. I'd try further but this is as far as the range goes!!

Shot 50 rounds this morning, 100, 200 and 265 yards.

265yard target, grouped low...pulled it up and over enough to land quite a few on the "gong"
233189

video gong hits
233190

265 yard "gong" video...5 hits 1 miss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNUfAjkLxus

Savvy Jack
01-19-2019, 01:06 PM
All but one black powder loads were between 6,043 and 8,843psi...1,100fps to 1,221fps from the shorter 20" carbine length barrel. One group using Original balloon semi-head cases produced a surprised 14,100 avg psi and 1,373fps.

10 shot groups

32gr Kik was 6,043psi no velocity reading (217gr 43-215C)
40gr Skirmish FFFG was 8,900psi (200gr Big Lube Bullet)
40gr Swiss FFG was 1,257fps and 8,648psi (Lyman 210gr 427098 Bullet)
39gr Swiss FFG was 1,221fps and 8,843psi (205gr 43-208A Bullet)
40gr Swiss FFG was 1,373fps and 14,100psi (210gr Lyman 427098 Bullet)

Curiosity is killing me about the semi-balloon head cases producing such results. I may have to visit that again but I am out of Swiss FFG and don't plan on getting any more. I have some Goex FFFG I may try instead.

I reshot these cartridges today to try and find a psi pattern. I think I did. Unfortunately I ran out of SwissFF so I used Goes FFF. Swiss is differently more powerful.
For the 427098 bullet, powder compressed as needed to crimp ON driving band, not over the top.

WLP Primers

Test #52 - 40gr, Goex FFFG...WESTERN Semi-Balloon Head, 7 shots...1,76fps @12,755psi (I think this is the culprit for the previous Swiss FF 14,000psi)
Test #53 - 40gr, Goex FFFG...WRA Semi-Balloon Head , 6 shots...1,272 fps @11,001psi
Test #54 - 40gr, Goex FFFG...REM-UMC Semi-Balloon Head, 4 shots...1,248 fps @10,037psi
Test #55 - 40gr, Goex FFFG...RP Modern, 10 shots...1235fps @ 8,305psi
Test #56 - 40gr, Swiss FFG...Starline...modified to replicate early short 1.177 brass...10 shots, @8,953 psi

There is further disturbing data for some of those shots.

#52 had a psi ES of 7,097...SAAMI uses 3,000psi as a max ES (if I recall correctly)
#53 has a psi ES of 3,612psi
#54 had a psi ES of only 1,529
#55 had a psi ES of 1,542

Note: Those semi-balloon head cases' balloon head space varies from brass to brass as well as other details.

However, all shots grouped very well @ 100 yards.
234297

Larry Gibson
01-20-2019, 11:12 AM
Not criticizing any of your data, just would like to know for comparative analysis. Do you input any correction factor to offset the psi required to expand the cases? If not then does the instructions explain how that amount of psi is accounted for?

Savvy Jack
01-20-2019, 01:00 PM
would like to know for comparative analysis.

Not that I know of unless its programmed in the software. That would be a good question for Jim at https://www.shootingsoftware.com/

Savvy Jack
01-21-2019, 12:38 AM
Not criticizing any of your data, just would like to know for comparative analysis. Do you input any correction factor to offset the psi required to expand the cases? If not then does the instructions explain how that amount of psi is accounted for?

Larry, had a brief chat with Ed and he educated me some more. I think I will plan on drilling a 1/16" hole in a few factory cases underneath where the strain gauge is located and see what happens.

Am I in line on my thinking?

Cast_outlaw
02-15-2019, 06:18 PM
So I’m going to wonder a little off topic here, but was wondering if fire forming 44mag brass into 44-40 is doable. I know that the rim is 0.011 smaller than 44x40, but I imagine that won’t make too much difference on extraction. All other dimensions are not that far off, the Lyman manual says they is only .020 different in length. The reason I ask is my local store dose not carry it, but stocks 44mag. when I order things it takes months for the owner to make the order, and he forgets sometimes as well. If I order it from the city, it costs me almost as much to ship it as the bag of brass dose. Advice here would be much appreciated as I would hate to ruin one of my nice firearms doing something foolhardy.

john.k
02-15-2019, 06:45 PM
Short answer is no...........but if you were keen,its possible to slip a thin sleeve over the case to increase the base dia .which is done to form some odd caliber cases for old guns....definitely a "Dont do this at home ,viewers"

Savvy Jack
02-15-2019, 07:33 PM
So I’m going to wonder a little off topic here, but was wondering if fire forming 44mag brass into 44-40 is doable. I know that the rim is 0.011 smaller than 44x40, but I imagine that won’t make too much difference on extraction. All other dimensions are not that far off, the Lyman manual says they is only .020 different in length. The reason I ask is my local store dose not carry it, but stocks 44mag. when I order things it takes months for the owner to make the order, and he forgets sometimes as well. If I order it from the city, it costs me almost as much to ship it as the bag of brass dose. Advice here would be much appreciated as I would hate to ruin one of my nice firearms doing something foolhardy.

I will let Ed or one of the other guys answer in detail but for a quick answer, NO

The base of the 44 Magnum is smaller in diameter than the 44-40. If you use the 44 Mag it will expand at the base and could cause a problem. The case is shorter than the 44-40 so suggested loads from manuals may create more pressures.

Since I have this 1 1/4" diameter "testing" barrel...I too have been temped and this just might get me to try a few.

Cast_outlaw
02-15-2019, 11:26 PM
Sounds like a job for a guy with a test barrel, and pressure trace system. With only .012 differences in base, and .010 on the rim, and on my Calliper my mag case read 1.282 and a 44-40 case measured 1.293 a difference of .011 in length. So if you were carful with the seating depth, and loaded up from starting data for group one actions. I imagine it would work fine, and end up with stronger brass. but that’s just MHO and savvy jack you have the gear to confirm or disprove this crazy Canuck

john.k
02-16-2019, 12:01 AM
Yep.....012"...taint but a whisker.......now put your face 8" away from where an undersize case is holding back at least 10,000psi.........yep,sounds like a bit more now...........the most likely outcome is gas blowback around the case,making you look like a Chinese panda..........a one eyed one.....

Savvy Jack
02-16-2019, 08:10 AM
If you don't hear from me by noon, send out the posse!!!

I loaded up two cartridges using resized 44 Mag WW Super cases in an RCBS 44-40 resizing die.. The WW Super cases are thicker, I think...than the Starline 44-40 cases. The cases are shorter and I did not want to re-adjust my RCBS seating die so I had to use the Redding 44-40 Profile crimp die. It really put a tight squeezing crimp on it so it would fit in the tight chamber of the MGM barrel. I also used a .429 43-215C lead bullet, that plus the deeper seating depth due to the shorter case length and the tight "crimp" could make for interesting results. I did use only CCI-300 primers and 16.5gr of IMR-4227.

Outpost75
02-16-2019, 10:28 AM
So I’m going to wonder a little off topic here, but was wondering if fire forming 44mag brass into 44-40 is doable. I know that the rim is 0.011 smaller than 44x40, but I imagine that won’t make too much difference on extraction. All other dimensions are not that far off, the Lyman manual says they is only .020 different in length. The reason I ask is my local store dose not carry it, but stocks 44mag. when I order things it takes months for the owner to make the order, and he forgets sometimes as well. If I order it from the city, it costs me almost as much to ship it as the bag of brass dose. Advice here would be much appreciated as I would hate to ruin one of my nice firearms doing something foolhardy.

.44 Magnum brass has quite a bit greater wall thickness at the mouth and would result in a cartridge too large in diameter to chamber unless you turned the mouths thinner to fit into the chamber neck.

Jedman
02-16-2019, 11:36 AM
So I’m going to wonder a little off topic here, but was wondering if fire forming 44mag brass into 44-40 is doable. I know that the rim is 0.011 smaller than 44x40, but I imagine that won’t make too much difference on extraction. All other dimensions are not that far off, the Lyman manual says they is only .020 different in length. The reason I ask is my local store dose not carry it, but stocks 44mag. when I order things it takes months for the owner to make the order, and he forgets sometimes as well. If I order it from the city, it costs me almost as much to ship it as the bag of brass dose. Advice here would be much appreciated as I would hate to ruin one of my nice firearms doing something foolhardy.

It's not the rim diameter that is a little different it is the head diameter. Using 44 mag brass in a 44-40 chamber you could have problems, at least a buldged case to a possible case head separation.

Jedman

Savvy Jack
02-16-2019, 11:46 AM
.44 Magnum brass has quite a bit greater wall thickness at the mouth and would result in a cartridge too large in diameter to chamber unless you turned the mouths thinner to fit into the chamber neck.

Yeap, I could not get them to chamber all the way in the MGM barrel at the range. I thought they would work but I should have tried inserting the firing pin thingamabob in the shop! That last little bit just wouldn't go!!!

I did get some great results with some other stuff though.

john.k
02-16-2019, 06:32 PM
Both my 44/40 s have chamber necks so tight that .429" bullets thumb seat securely in fired cases.....

Savvy Jack
02-16-2019, 07:09 PM
Sorry Hootmix, I somehow missed you post but Outpost75 nailed it!! Unless you understand at any point you could hurt or damage things, stick with the published loads.

If my numbers are correct........
Today I spent the morning at the range again shooting Goex FFFG and Reloder 7. I am getting consistent 1,300fps/12,000psi with 40Gr/v Goex FFG in semi-baloonhead cases. I am getting consistent 1,300fps/12,000psi with a caseload of Reloder 7 and a 200/217gr lead bullet of the 427098 design. Accurecy with both are consistent 4" groups @ 100 yards.


UPDATE 2/16/2019

If my numbers are correct....

Today I tested, for the second time, a case-load of Reloder 7 that resulted in a great, safe. load for both my revolvers and rifles.


26.5gr Reloder 7 (case capacity, no compression)
Accurate Mold 43-208A (bullet sits firmly on top of powder)

CCI 300 Primers
Starline Brass (reloaded countless times with high pressure loads)



10 shot tests

MGM Testing Barrel (scoped)
Strain Gauge
4" group @ 100 yards
1,382fps @ 11,304psi
50Deg F, Outside Air Temp


Uberti Winchester 73' (no scope)
4" group @ 25 yards
Consistently hit the gong @ 265 yards
1,388fps


Uberti "Cattleman" 5 1/2" barrel
um, well...need to revisit :-)
Several gong hits @ 265 yards
952fps

https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/the-rifles-companion

236161
Uberti Cattleman 5 1/2" barrel

236162
I was very surprised at how clean the old 1800's unheadstamped brass was after shooting. The brass stayed bright and shinny unlike modern brass that turns dark.

Savvy Jack
02-16-2019, 08:21 PM
Both my 44/40 s have chamber necks so tight that .429" bullets thumb seat securely in fired cases.....

As they should be if the chamber is cut for .429 bullets. "Tight" in most of our conversations, typically refers to original 44-40 specs to accommodate Winchester factory .425 JSP bullets to which a .429 will not chamber...especially with thicker Remington brass.

Outpost75
02-16-2019, 10:37 PM
As they should be if the chamber is cut for .429 bullets. "Tight" in most of our conversations, typically refers to original 44-40 specs to accommodate Winchester factory .425 JSP bullets to which a .429 will not chamber...especially with thicker Remington brass.

My Ruger original Vaquero .44-40 came with a .429" barrel and a cylinder having a .444 neck diameter and .426 cylinder throats. It shot jacketed factory OK, but not lead.

My S&W 544 Texas Commemorative also has a .429 barrel, but the cylinder has .4285" cylinder throats AND the chamber necks are .447" so that you can load .429 jacketed or .430 lead bullets in Starline or Remington .44-40 brass and the revolver shoots like a house on fire!

John Taylor rechambered my Ruger Vaquero cylinder and also made for me a custom .44-40 cylinder to fit my .44 Magnum Ruger Super Blackhawk. He also ftted a Numrich Marlin 1894 .44-40 barrel to my H&R .44 shotgun frame and chambered them all with the same reamer, so that all of the guns interchange brass and can be loaded with the same die adjustments. Neck diameter of the chambers is .447 and cylinder throats are .4305" and I size bullets .430". Hornady .430 XTP jacketed bullets in 180- and 200-grain weights shoot wonderfully in both rifle and revolver with a case full of RL7 or 4198.

My Marlin 1894S from the 1993 run and Interarms Rossi '92 clone in .44-40 both have .448" chamber necks and .430" barrel groove diameter.

IN ALL OF THESE GUNS I use Accurate 43-230G cast 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals with 24.5 grains of RL7, 22 grs. of IMR4198, or 7.2 grains of Bullseye. These loads are +P and not for Winchester 1873 clones for Colt SAs.

252039

Savvy Jack
02-16-2019, 11:30 PM
The 43-230G appears to be one I have yet to run through the MGM barrel. I shall do that next weekend!!

Savvy Jack
02-17-2019, 03:52 PM
Loaded up some 230G's with 26.5gr of Reloder 7. Cases capacity with the base of the bullet sitting firm on top of the powder.

Starline Brass
CCI-300 primers
1.297 case length
1.600 AOL

bullets resized to .429
230gr
length .650
seating depth .340

I'll give them a shot next weekend.

Savvy Jack
11-26-2019, 10:13 PM
Loaded up some 230G's with 26.5gr of Reloder 7. Cases capacity with the base of the bullet sitting firm on top of the powder.

Starline Brass
CCI-300 primers
1.297 case length
1.600 AOL

bullets resized to .429
230gr
length .650
seating depth .340

I'll give them a shot next weekend.


Somehow I forgot about this post. I did try that load.
252009
252010

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/pressure-testing

Outpost75
11-26-2019, 11:16 PM
Savvy Jack.

Sure would appreciate if you could fire pressure for charge establishment Group 1 vs. Group 2 with 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 7.2 of Bullseye with 43-230G. If you need bullets I can cast and send to you, but I think you may have gotten the mold... Lots of folks did.

In my 1905 Colt SA and 1920 New Service I have standardized on 6 grains of Bullseye wth my new Accurate 43-206H which looks like 425423 which shrunk in the washing machine and is a near exact approximation, I am sure low pressure, nearly duplicating factory smokeless loads, and the load shoots to the sights for COlt SA, New Service and El Tigre carbine likes it too, smooth feeding in the levers.

This has become my go-to, do everything bullet for .44 Russian, .44 Special, .44-40

252040252041252042252043

Savvy Jack
11-27-2019, 08:30 AM
Savvy Jack.

Sure would appreciate if you could fire pressure for charge establishment Group 1 vs. Group 2 with 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 7.2 of Bullseye with 43-230G. If you need bullets I can cast and send to you, but I think you may have gotten the mold... Lots of folks did.

In my 1905 Colt SA and 1920 New Service I have standardized on 6 grains of Bullseye wth my new Accurate 43-206H which looks like 425423 which shrunk in the washing machine and is a near exact approximation, I am sure low pressure, nearly duplicating factory smokeless loads, and the load shoots to the sights for COlt SA, New Service and El Tigre carbine likes it too, smooth feeding in the levers.

This has become my go-to, do everything bullet for .44 Russian, .44 Special, .44-40

252011252012252013252014



Yeah that was one of my lasts tests last year. I didn't get the mold and that was from a batch you sent me. I need to send the PTII back to Jim and get him to reset it again (lost the wifi/bluetooth again) plus I need some more strain gauges. I don't know if I will be able to get that going again for a while due to the cost. I am also "recovering" from physical bodily damage from the wife from the custom barrel I got for the CB. I shot it last weekend and the accuracy is the same as a factory barrel. I am hoping it will get more accurate as it gets broke in but even if it doesn't, it still shoot great.

Larry Gibson
11-27-2019, 09:54 AM
Outpost75

It appears you've got 4 "attachments there that are connected together. Comes up "invalid attachment". Can you separate them?

Also, while I don't have a 44-40 test barrel I have a 44 Magnum test barrel. The 44 Magnum case, with the same bullet seated to the same depth, will have about 90 - 93% of the case capacity of the 44-40. I can use my Ruger OM Vaquero 44-40cylinder in my BHFT 44 magnum also as it fits perfectly with almost identical barrel/cylinder gap. The Stainless Vaquero 44-40 cylinder throats are .429 (pinned) so the same bullet and loads can be loaded in both. With the same load in both cartridges the 44-40 velocities run about 93 - 95% of the same loads in 44 magnum cases (Winchester cases for both). Given its the same revolver/barrel except for the Cylinder/cartridge that tells me the pressure, given the same load in each cartridge, is less in the larger capacity 44-40 case [that only makes sense]. Thus I pressure test loads in the 44 Magnum and interpolate the same load in the 44-40 will give about 90 - 95% of the same psi.

I could pressure test the Lee 429-200-RF, the Lee TL430-240-SWC and the Lyman 429360 in the 44 Magnum with RL7 to give a close approximation of the same load in the 44-40? Or if you want to send me some of your bullets I can test them also?

Outpost75
11-27-2019, 11:55 AM
Larry, not sure what happened. Editing the post and trying again

Savvy Jack
11-27-2019, 12:58 PM
I really would like to know the pressures myself. Noticing back in the early 1900's, 1937ish according to the Bullseye label date.....
252045

Sharpe's
Revolver - 200gr JSP, 6.7gr, 955fps @ 15,000cup
Revolver - 250gr Lead, 6.5gr, 890fps @ 15,000cup


Label

.44 W.C.F. & .44/40

140gr HP - 9.3? Could be 8.3
205gr lead - 6.6
250gr lead - 6.5

Savvy Jack
11-27-2019, 12:59 PM
double post...attachments are going crazy

WBH
11-27-2019, 09:00 PM
If you want to +P a cowboy action rifle I would opt for a .45LC.
Obviously you dont want to use a '73 Winchster. Those toggle bolt actions are just too weak. I think The High Road Leverguns has a few articles on the subject. Treat those old girls gently!

Savvy Jack
11-27-2019, 09:10 PM
If you want to +P a cowboy action rifle I would opt for a .45LC.
Obviously you dont want to use a '73 Winchster. Those toggle bolt actions are just too weak. I think The High Road Leverguns has a few articles on the subject. Treat those old girls gently!

There is actually nothing in the world wrong with replicating Winchester's early 1900's "High Velocity" loads in the firearms they were designed for.....and I highly recommend them in the correct firearms!!

No, the 73' is not the correct firearms nor are at least 10-12 others...including standard size revolvers.
http://www.44-40wcf.com