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View Full Version : Have you seen your boolit in flight?



ghh3rd
10-30-2009, 03:43 PM
I just replied to a post in which I said that if the sun is shinning just right I can see my .38 wadcutter boolit fired in a snubbie zip toward the target.

I first found that it was possible to see a projectile while standing behind someone shooting .45 factory loads. The cieling lights in the indoor range provided the right light to see a very brief dot on it's way to the paper.

Has anyone else gotten a glimpse of their boolits in flight?

Randy

Rock
10-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Frequently when shooting .22 rifle.

2ndAmendmentNut
10-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Yes I have been able to see most handgun boolits and bullets in flight if the sun is right and I am to the side of the shooter.

Wally
10-30-2009, 03:58 PM
If the light is behind you and you shoot toward a target that has just the right contrast, at a sufficent range, you should, be able to do so, as have I. Everyone blinks when the round goes off and that is why it is quite easy to see a .22 RF bullet in flight, as you tend not to blink when shooting them --I have seen this with pellet in flight with pellet guns as well.

Oldtimer
10-30-2009, 04:03 PM
Kinda neat when shootin a centerfire rifle, if the humidity and conditions are right to see the vapor trail behind the bullet through the scope. Bob

OutHuntn84
10-30-2009, 04:05 PM
It is more common with lower velocities. Really fun when ya get to see em though.

Trey45
10-30-2009, 04:06 PM
22lr mostly, and sometimes 45 colt. When I have spotted for others i have frequently seen the vapor trail mentioned above.

AZ-Stew
10-30-2009, 04:07 PM
I started shooting 500 yard high power rifle matches this year. We run three relays, putting one person on each target in the target pit, one on the line shooting and the other using a spotting scope to keep score from behind the firing line. When the shooter fires, if the scorer keeps his eyes open, he can watch the supersonic shock wave follow the bullet trajectory toward the target. It looks like a tube of mirage 6-8 inches in diameter going down range. If you watch carefully, you can almost call the score before the target is pulled and marked. Unfortunately, due to the atmospheric distortion caused by the shock wave, I have yet to see the bullet.

I have seen handgun bullets in flight and have watched .44 Magnum bullets pass through a 200 yard target when I was using a spotting scope.

It's always easier to see them when the light is behind you.

Regards,

Stew

yondering
10-30-2009, 04:09 PM
If you're shooting at a snow bank, it's easy to see the dark boolit against the white background. Kinda fun with a .45, you can see the trajectory pretty easy.

JRW
10-30-2009, 04:10 PM
We see them all the time shooting BPCR. You can call the hit prior to the boolit getting there. Just a big old silver chunk flying toward the target.

jdgabbard
10-30-2009, 04:14 PM
Yeah, I've seen them. Mostly are larger slower moving calibers. I.e. the 45acp... But I've seen a few .38s too.

O.S.O.K.
10-30-2009, 04:45 PM
I used to shoot CAS - match or two every month. When the sun was right on certain stages, you could see the boolits from the pop gun loads every shot. Kinda weird really. Mine never showed as they were going 800 fps from my revolvers and 1000 from my levergun.

stubshaft
10-30-2009, 04:47 PM
Shot silly wett for many years and while spotting for other shooter could clearly see the boolit in flight. The trick to seeing the boolit is to adjust you scope for best clarity about 10 t0 20 yards in front of the target.

BarryinIN
10-30-2009, 05:50 PM
I started shooting 500 yard high power rifle matches this year. We run three relays, putting one person on each target in the target pit, one on the line shooting and the other using a spotting scope to keep score from behind the firing line. When the shooter fires, if the scorer keeps his eyes open, he can watch the supersonic shock wave follow the bullet trajectory toward the target. It looks like a tube of mirage 6-8 inches in diameter going down range. If you watch carefully, you can almost call the score before the target is pulled and marked. Unfortunately, due to the atmospheric distortion caused by the shock wave, I have yet to see the bullet.

Yep, I was going to say that when I shot Highpower, it was pretty common to see the bullet's path when spotting.
I started when the .30 calibers were still king and I could often see the bullet itself. I don't know if I ever saw a .224 bullet after the shift to AR15s/.223s, but I could still see the "wash".
And yes, you could just about score the shot from it. I could often confirm or correct the shooter's call based on already knowing the area it hit.

BTW, about the .223 changeover: The league I shot in used to give an award for high score using an AR in an effort to encourage people to use them. Often there was nobody to give it to. How things have changed.

AZ-Stew
10-30-2009, 06:10 PM
BTW, about the .223 changeover: The league I shot in used to give an award for high score using an AR in an effort to encourage people to use them. Often there was nobody to give it to. How things have changed.

I've learned that .22 shooters MUST use heavy bullets, though. Shot 52 grainers in a match last spring when it was nasty windy and all I could do was laugh when the target was marked. Shoot, correct for location of previous shot, shoot again and watch the next marker come up on the opposite side of the target from where it was supposed to land. I could just about have gotten the same score and saved myself 30-40 rounds of ammo if I had just quit in the middle of the match.

I'm using Hornady 75gr A-MAXs now and things are much better, but I still have trouble competing with the 6.5s and .30s when the wind blows.

Regards,

Stew

BLTsandwedge
10-30-2009, 06:49 PM
Those of us who've served on big guns- 105MM and up- the projo would hang in the air like watching a golf ball in flight. On the shooting range, it is very common to watch .38 wadcutters.

Echo
10-30-2009, 06:59 PM
When I was shooting competitively I wore a little white patch on the inside corner of the left lens of my shooting glasses, because I could see the .45 bullet going down range, and it was distracting, especially when I would see it go into the white!

And could occasionally see the .22 going down range, too... My chum was watching, from behind, one time, during practice, and using a spotting scope, he could see the .22 going down range, and exclaimed "I see them drop!". Well, Yes, Ted, as an engineer I expected you to know that....

243winxb
10-30-2009, 07:00 PM
Seen all of the above. 22 38 45 & high power rifles. Saw shot & wad break a clay bird skeet shooting when shell had less then the required powder.

Shiloh
10-30-2009, 07:08 PM
It's not only if the sun is right, but temperature and especially humidity come into play.

Shiloh

Ricochet
10-30-2009, 07:55 PM
Kinda neat when shootin a centerfire rifle, if the humidity and conditions are right to see the vapor trail behind the bullet through the scope. Bob
I've had that happen and first thought it was smoking lube, but I think it was really contrails from shock condensation of moisture in the air. What impressed me was seeing how the bullet's flight is really obviously a corkscrewing helix, not a straight path to the target. Visible with the naked eye. It's instantly apparent that if those helical paths aren't all synchronized, there's going to be a good sized group on target.

mpmarty
10-30-2009, 08:35 PM
at night shooting jackrabbits with a spotlight in left hand and 1911 in the right I'd see the back of the slugs illuminated by my spotlight regularly as I bounced across the desert sitting on the r/f fender of a '59 ford flip top convertible. Had a steel chair bolted to the flat top fender with a belt to keep you in place. Shoot jackrabbits all night and hang em up on a barbed wire fence. Drive away a few hundred yards and hunker down to wait for wylie coyote.:bigsmyl2:

303Guy
10-31-2009, 12:44 AM
... What impressed me was seeing how the bullet's flight is really obviously a corkscrewing helix, not a straight path to the target. You could actually see that! Wow! That's fun!

Ricochet
10-31-2009, 02:12 AM
May be that my load and rifle combination was producing more initial yaw than some. It was an 8mm load in an old Mauser that was shooting 4-5" groups, about like it shot with milsurp ammo. But it was fun to see the twisty trails!

Jim
10-31-2009, 09:00 AM
Kinda neat when shootin a centerfire rifle, if the humidity and conditions are right to see the vapor trail behind the bullet through the scope. Bob

First time I ever saw that was a foggy morning about daybreak at a National Forest range just north of Charleston, SC. A Uberti repro of a Sharps in .45-70 with 400(+/-) Lee hollow base boolits. I think the hollow base contributed to the vacuum and the contrail. I thought I was halucinating until I saw it again.

Tom W.
10-31-2009, 02:30 PM
I saw it first when my son and I were shooting my .45 Colt at some clay targets across his pond. I was a bit shocked when it happened...

MtGun44
10-31-2009, 10:09 PM
WIth .45ACP jacketed and light behind it is easy to see the coppery dot as it runs
down range, esp at longer ranges. I agree with Ricochet that seeing the starting
right then looping up and drifting back to the left and down of a high powered rifle at long range
is very educational.

Bill

HollandNut
10-31-2009, 10:23 PM
If the light is right you can follow a 45 ACP from the muzzle to the 25 yard bull real easily ..

I was a Gunner in the Navy for 22 years .. You cud follow the five inch projo for a short period of time .. I have a pic somewhere of a five inch firing , and you can see the projo a few feet from the muzzle ..

The 16" projo ( almost six feet tall ) could be followed quite easily ..

Frank46
10-31-2009, 11:22 PM
I was spotting for a friend and he was shooting a 45acp. Was really funny to see his
bullets actually wobble to the target. 5"54 off my ship, was standing on the fantail when they let loose. You could see and hear them go through the air at the towed targets they were shooting at. Frank

MikeSSS
11-01-2009, 01:29 AM
I see the bullets other guys shoot more than my own but sometimes I see mine.

Twice in one day a guy hit the metal target frame and .45 slugs came back over our heads. They came back fast. I almost tried to grab the second out of the air, sure glad I didn't actually try.

dromia
11-01-2009, 04:40 AM
I started shooting 500 yard high power rifle matches this year. We run three relays, putting one person on each target in the target pit, one on the line shooting and the other using a spotting scope to keep score from behind the firing line. When the shooter fires, if the scorer keeps his eyes open, he can watch the supersonic shock wave follow the bullet trajectory toward the target. It looks like a tube of mirage 6-8 inches in diameter going down range. If you watch carefully, you can almost call the score before the target is pulled and marked. Unfortunately, due to the atmospheric distortion caused by the shock wave, I have yet to see the bullet.

I have seen handgun bullets in flight and have watched .44 Magnum bullets pass through a 200 yard target when I was using a spotting scope.

It's always easier to see them when the light is behind you.

Regards,

Stew

Yep reading this is an important technique for Target Rifle coaches as well in calling the adjustments, its known here as the "swirl of the bullet".

Backor side light and some humidity in the air all helps to see the trail.

cast367
11-01-2009, 07:36 AM
ghh3rd
O yes many times when we shoot with the UZI at 100 meter its was possible to seen the bullit flying. Only when the sun was shining in de half open range .
Cast367

WHITETAIL
11-01-2009, 08:02 AM
All of what was said.
Yes, mostly pistol rounds.:holysheep

JSnover
11-01-2009, 10:46 AM
First time I ever saw one was when I started shooting big slow boolits at 200 yards. Watching through a spotting scope they appeared to flying in from the side and I was amazed at how long it took them to get to the target.

Rocky Raab
11-01-2009, 11:50 AM
I believe that helical corkscrew is only the vapor, not the bullet. The bullet may indeed still be wobbling a bit, and that causes an asymmetrical shock wave, which in turn causes a vapor trail that appears as a corkscrew. It spreads out exactly like the wake from a boat, amplifying the effect.

I have watched bullets disintegrate in flight also. Shooting prairie dogs last year with By Smalley, I watched his .20-cal bullets turn to streaks of gray lead vapor about 200 yards downrange. If that trail started just before the PD, the effect was VERY impressive. But if the PD was just beyond the end of it, it was a "miss" simply because there was no bullet left.

The cartridge was the invention of By Smalley and Mic McPherson, the 5-35 SMc, with a muzzle speed of 4500 fps.

Freischütz
11-01-2009, 12:55 PM
8" is a lot of fun to watch. With a clear field of fire you can follow it from the gun's muzzle to impact

Rocky Raab
11-01-2009, 01:52 PM
...at the the complete opposite end of the spectrum from the 5-35 SMc, I used to like watching the Mk-82 500-pounders come off the F-4s and go to their targets - but the tracers going past my cockpit in the other direction were a bit of a distraction sometimes.

AZ-Stew
11-01-2009, 08:07 PM
Re: High power...


What impressed me was seeing how the bullet's flight is really obviously a corkscrewing helix, not a straight path to the target.


I believe that helical corkscrew is only the vapor, not the bullet. The bullet may indeed still be wobbling a bit, and that causes an asymmetrical shock wave, which in turn causes a vapor trail that appears as a corkscrew. It spreads out exactly like the wake from a boat, amplifying the effect.

I've observed what both of you are saying, but I don't think it's "vapor" (having seen it here under very low humidity conditions), nor do I think it's the bullet "corkscrewing" it's way to the target (though it may be. As I said, I've never actually seen the bullet itself). And I think Rocky is correct that it spreads out like a wake from a boat. I've observed that. Funny, though, that it only gets 6-8 inches in diameter. After that, there either isn't enough energy to spread it wider, or the compression isn't enough to distort light. The latter is more likely in my opinion.

The "tube of mirage" I described is due to the compression of the air, causing a change in density local to the bullet which results in a mirage effect - it refracts the light coming from whatever is in the background, bending it so the background is distorted. This presents the appearance of a "tube" of distortion when viewed from the firing line. The bending of the light makes it nearly impossible to see the bullet inside the tube of mirage.

The "corkscrew" effect, I believe, is due to two factors: 1.) The spin of the bullet, causing the "tube of mirage" to be propagated in the fashion of a helix, probably affected by the rifling marks on the bullet, and, 2.) wind interference with the tube as it translates down range.

It's really hard to tell when you only have about 1/3 of a second to observe it while the bullet transits from muzzle to target, and almost as soon as it appears, it's gone. I've never tried to see the near end of the tube at the time I observe the tube impacting the target, but I think it's almost gone a couple hundred yards (a tenth of a second or so) uprange.

Just my observations. I get to do this once a month, so I'll post anything new I observe. It would be fun to study this effect with a high-speed movie camera so the effect could be observed more slowly as it occurs.

Regards,

Stew

KYCaster
11-01-2009, 09:01 PM
I've had that happen and first thought it was smoking lube, but I think it was really contrails from shock condensation of moisture in the air. What impressed me was seeing how the bullet's flight is really obviously a corkscrewing helix, not a straight path to the target. Visible with the naked eye. It's instantly apparent that if those helical paths aren't all synchronized, there's going to be a good sized group on target.



I saw this once while shooting Aguila Colibri 22RF from a S&W 617 revolver with a 2X scope. The Colibri is a reduced power load and at ~20 yds I was surprised to see the helical path of the bullet. It was very plain to see at every shot. The path was fairly consistant and appeared to be a spiral of about four inch diameter around the axis of the bore. The bullet would appear in the scope's field of view about half way to the target. It would first appear at about the three oclock position and rotate around the axis for about 380 degrees and impact the target at about the five oclock position. Accuracy sucked...ten shots in about four inches at 20 yds, but the center of the group was 2 1/2 in from the POA at five oclock...right where the bullets appeared to impact the target.

The guy who supplied the ammo claimed they were very accurate from his Stevens rifle, but I wasn't impressed then, but now I think it would be interesting to see what would happen at longer ranges.

Hmmmm...anybody know where I can find Aguila ammo?

Jerry

OBXPilgrim
11-01-2009, 09:12 PM
Seen it many times from 45 acps.

The one that really surprized me was 44 mags from a Win 94. My friend was shooting it out to 70 yards & I could see it from around 25 yards on out. The slug was a Lee 310gr RF doing 1550fps. If finally coaching my friend on how it looked he saw it too, after I started shooting. The light was about 30-40degrees off from behind us.

rwt101
11-01-2009, 09:46 PM
I saw a pink elephant once!!

Bob T:redneck:

Dframe
11-01-2009, 10:27 PM
Yes. A friend and I had a ball watching 45/70s. Range was 100 yards and you could clearly see the boolit if you were watching with a spotting scope.

Ricochet
11-01-2009, 11:19 PM
That's an interesting idea that a precessing boolit might be throwing out an angled wake that rotates around something like a lawn sprinkler, spreading out a helix that's much wider than any actual deviations in the boolit's path. Could be. I'd love to see more done with high speed videos showing boolits' flight with effects of any imperfections or instabilities. Probably it's been done, I just haven't seen it.

SwedeNelson
11-01-2009, 11:28 PM
Sun at your back.
Light 45-70 Cowboy loads.
Low power scope.
Bullet comes up from the bottom
of the scope and smacks the target at the
intersection of the cross hairs.
First time I seen it I couldn't believe it.

More fun.
Swede Nelson

Ron
11-02-2009, 07:00 AM
About 20 years ago I was shooting a Service Pistol match being held by the RAN on HMAS Cerberus on the Mornington Peninsula. It had been raining all day and just as we were about to start the 25 metre practice, the sky opened up and down came some of the heaviest rain I have ever seen.

The rain didn't stop the RAN Gunnie who was Range Controller so we loaded up and on command fired the practice. The rain was so heavy that we could see the projectile cutting a swathe through it to the target.

I had previously seen projectile flying if the light was right but never such as the effect a bullet has on falling rain, just cut a tunnel straight through it. Haven't seen the same since, of course I don't stand and shoot in the rain any more!

Dframe
11-02-2009, 12:53 PM
A couple of years ago I was shooting Copper plated 380s. Our range has us shooting due north and with the sun low in the western sky I was able to see the flight of those shiney little bullets almost like tracers. GREAT FUN. I've never had the exact light conditions to repeat it since.

Cannoneer
11-02-2009, 04:58 PM
When I was in the Army, we could watch the projo from an eight inch Howitzer heading down range when the light was right. Same with the 40mm grenades out of the M-203 and Mk 19 Mod 3.

On the Machine Guns you could only watch the tracers. We could also watch the main gun rounds from the M-60 Tank as they traveled the distance to the target during tank gunnery.

Rocky Raab
11-02-2009, 05:39 PM
The "lawn sprinkler" is a superb analogy. Wish I'd thought of it.

If you think about it, the bullet itself cannot be flying in a helical path; centrifugal force would fling it outward because there's no force that would hold it contained in a "tube" of whatever diameter we're talking about. So if it isn't the bullet itself, we must be seeing something else that making the lawn sprinkler effect.

I'm still going with an asymmetric shock wave, caused either by the very slight difference in speed across the noise of a precessing (wobbling) bullet or some small defect in the bullet nose. Either way, a visible shock wave like the one that forms at the front of a supersonic aircraft wing will cause a white compression/decompression cloud from the water vapor in the air. Since the bullet is spinning, that vapor cloud forms the lawn sprinkler look. It dissipates within a few inches because there all such waves lose energy at the square of the distance.

(I'm no scientist, but I worked at NASA and flew jets. Better than staying at Holiday Inn Express!)

405
11-02-2009, 05:41 PM
Just an added bonus to the shooting sports. Shooting big 45 cal BPCR rifles at distance if the sun is just right and the temperature and humidity are just right pretty neat watching the big, fuzzy, white marshmallow arcing into the target. I think that effect is caused by the vapor cloud surrounding the bullet under those "just right" conditions. :)

twidget
11-04-2009, 11:58 PM
Firing with the sun at my back I've seen gas-checked .38s going down range. They looked a lot like tracers. I've also seen .22 long rifle bullets when the light was right and shooting against a dark background.

For a detailed explanation of how a bullet flies, go to http://www.fulton-armory.com/ and find the article titled "How Do Bullets Fly?". I can't come up with a direct link so go to the site and from the index on the right side click on one of the FAQ sections. Scroll down to the "of general interest" section and you'll see it. It's very technical, but has some diagrams of how a bullet follows a very complicated helical path.

blaster
11-05-2009, 08:57 PM
With the sun at my back I can see my 44 mag plinkers plain as day.

KYCaster
11-05-2009, 11:01 PM
The "lawn sprinkler" is a superb analogy. Wish I'd thought of it.

If you think about it, the bullet itself cannot be flying in a helical path; centrifugal force would fling it outward because there's no force that would hold it contained in a "tube" of whatever diameter we're talking about. So if it isn't the bullet itself, we must be seeing something else that making the lawn sprinkler effect.

I'm still going with an asymmetric shock wave, caused either by the very slight difference in speed across the noise of a precessing (wobbling) bullet or some small defect in the bullet nose. Either way, a visible shock wave like the one that forms at the front of a supersonic aircraft wing will cause a white compression/decompression cloud from the water vapor in the air. Since the bullet is spinning, that vapor cloud forms the lawn sprinkler look. It dissipates within a few inches because there all such waves lose energy at the square of the distance.

(I'm no scientist, but I worked at NASA and flew jets. Better than staying at Holiday Inn Express!)



Well, I'm no scientist either, but I once owned a lawn sprinkler. [smilie=1:

Take a look at this site,
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig12.htm

it explains (among other things) how a bullet can follow a spiral path.

The sub sonic 22's that I described in an earlier post were most definitely following a spiral path. I'm quite certain it wasn't an illusion due to shock waves or humidity.

Jerry

rayg
11-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Standing behind a 30 cal machine gun with binoculars in basic while the machine gun was firing out to thousand yrds with 6 rd bursts, you could see the bullets going out. They appeared to be just floating through the air until they disappeared. They reminded you of little rockets in formation, ray

Shooter6br
11-07-2009, 12:10 PM
I have seen 22RF bullets in fight with a 10x scope on the rifle. Also 220 Swift without a scope Sun was very bright Vel was 3850

dhansen
11-07-2009, 02:27 PM
My buddy had a nice little HK carbine in 9mm that we often shot with plain base cast boolits. With the sun quartering behind us you could clearly see the bright silver bases as the bullets flew out to the gong (or not) 100 meters out across the pond. Just like having tracers.

ghh3rd
11-07-2009, 10:25 PM
I was watching 'snipers' on the military channel yesterday, and they showed how you could follow the bullets path by watching the 'warp' in the air.

Lead melter
11-08-2009, 09:16 AM
45 Colt and .223 tracer rounds for me.