Load recommendations for 38 micro-squib load with 75gr WCs

[sheepdog]

IllinoisCoyoteHunter was nice enough to trade be some of the groupbuy 75 grain stackable wadcutters.

I would like to take a single wadcutter in a 38 case with say a single grain of red dot and make powder puff loads for my wife and mom to practice with.

Has anyone tried 1 grain with such a feeble projectile? Normally I'd be afraid of sticking one in the barrel but being its so light a mass think a grain might be enough to pop it out with barely any recoil.

So with that said any of you advanced loaders with the software or experience in this feel good giving me the thumbs up?

[GabbyM]

I knew a fellow that shot 1 1/2 grains of Bullseye through a 38 Special 1911 on an indoor range. The auto pistol 1911 lacking a cylinder gap could get away with less than a revolver before sticking a bullet. I'd be afraid to go under three grains of red dot myself. At least to start with.

[35remington]

Allow me to bestow a little loading history on you.

In their 43rd edition, Lyman lists very light loads with the 77 grain wadcutter 358101 with Bullseye, and the "suggested grains" are 1.5 with muzzle velocity as 560 fps. That's the only load they listed with Bullseye. The other powder mentioned has been discontinued long ago.

Now, the bothersome part is that A) Even Bullseye can be position sensitive with so much airspace in the case given the shallow seating of the wadcutter B) a load notably slower than the rest because you failed to elevate the muzzle might result in sticking problems with the bullet lodged in the barrel should you go too light.

It's annoying and somewhat poor practice to peer down the barrel after every shot to see if the bullet cleared the barrel. You won't know if a bullet came out if you're shooting at paper and there's multiple holes in the target. Sooner or later, if you go too low, you'll lodge one or multiple bullets in the barrel before you realize what's happening.

I'd suggest two grains to somewhat alleviate the low loading density's tendency toward excessive velocity variation and to make sure the bullet clears the barrel, muzzle up or muzzle down before firing. Then go from there. I'm betting this will be so satisfactory that you may not change it, as recoil would be very light in a standard frame or even a snubbie.

Three grains of a fast powder like Red Dot would be plenty, and due to the short bearing surface of the bullet I'd think you could get by with a bit less, as long as you don't go too low. In some measures Red Dot tends toward bridging in the powder measure when charge weights get too low and the cavity opening in the measure is small. Bullseye would be preferable to Red Dot for this use for that reason, although Red Dot is a fine powder otherwise.

I used to shoot at an indoor range limited to .22's and short wadcutters like yours and no other ammo was allowed to avoid damage to the rather thin, angled backstop. The loads were provided by a guy I knew for the range and had to be purchased there so they could have control over what was shot into the backstop. The load was 2.5 grains Bullseye and a short wadcutter like the one listed in the Lyman manual. It showed good accuracy at 50 feet and perfectly round holes. I bet it would have made a fine short range small game load.

FWIW.

[sheepdog]

I've done 2 grains with a 158 grain lead so know that's plenty safe. Wouldn't have the mass produce similar results with half the powder?

[35remington]

Well, the much shallower seating of the light bullet means velocity with the same charge will be about the same as the heavier bullet as the pressure is substantially lower, which offsets the lighter weight.

Give Lyman credit. There's very likely a reason they didn't list anything below 1.5 grains of Bullseye. Reliability of bullet exit from the revolver is the very probable cause for so doing.

I very seriously doubt your significant others would find the recoil of 1.5 or 2 grains Bullseye to be painful at all. It's a puff load, and it'll feel like a capgun. I shot a 2.5 grain load of Bullseye behind a 75 grain wadcutter in a 30 ounce Smith five screw model 10 (old style rifling) at that indoor range. The recoil barely moved the gun, and they were a delight to shoot.

When reloading, it's best to stick with what's prudent as opposed to running things right on the ragged edge of reliability and safety (avoiding sticking a bullet). If a bullet does stick, it'll happen when nobody expects it and firing a subsequent shot down the barrel will happen before you know it. A half grain of powder isn't worth putting a ring in your revolver's barrel.

[RayinNH]

If they're just for practice, why not use rubber bullets. Powered by a primer only, they can be fired into a carboard box with blanket stuffing and captured for reuse...Ray

[sheepdog]

Cause I have lead bullets and no rubber ones ;)

[Horace]

Try wax bullets. Horace

[bigdog454]

I wanted to do somthing similar with a little heavier bullet! what I did and it worked fine for me was to load the bullet to 38 S&W length, which meant to seat the bullet inside the 38spl case. The results were good, andyou could see the bullets going down range, the recoil was like shooting a 22 short. some of the loads that I tested were for old break open or below that level of pressure. Now if you want to try this, do so at your own risk, I'm only saying what I've sone and how it worked for me.
BD

[TAWILDCATT]

I would use 2 grs bullseye nothing less.you might find that the sights are way off.
I load 2.8 gr 700X with 148 gr wc.and thats not bad.its the sights you may have problems with.

[jhrosier]

I shot many thousands of .38 Spl loaded with a 125gr boolit and 2.5gr Bullseye with no problems.
I would try 2.0grs but not lighter.
Even the 2.5 gr load with the 125gr boolits has very little recoil or muzzle blast and would be entirely suitable for a beginner.

Jack

[sheepdog]

Why is everyone suggesting Bullseye when I said Red dot?

[35remington]

Reread my first post......and I'll repeat:

Because Red Dot meters horribly in small charges, especially in small diameter measuring cavities. The large flakes bridge the small gap and fail to fill it fully, and you get squibs and a possible bullet lodged in the barrel (sounds like you're fighting squibs one way or another, doesn't it?). Weighing tiny charges of flake powder one round at a time is tedious. Bullseye is much better suited for this than Red Dot as the granule size is much smaller.

1.5 grains Red Dot is asking for trouble. As is any large flake powder (Unique, 700X, American Select, Clays, et. al) in light charges.

Besides, historical data with light charges of Bullseye and your wadcutter exist. Red Dot is something I couldn't find.

One grain of anything is NOT a good idea. Sorry, but I can't agree to that. Especially given the barrel/cylinder gap and gas pressure bleed off of a revolver. You need a certain minimum pressure to get the bullet to jump the gap and survive the pressure loss of the cylinder gap and keep moving past the forcing cone and out the barrel. The longer the barrel, the less advisable tiny powder charges are. The larger the barrel/cylinder gap is, the less advisable tiny powder charges are. FWIW I wouldn't shoot one grain charges out of a snubbie, either.

No historical info exists for what you suggest, and there's likely a reason. I did what I could.

Two grain charges will hardly give your wrist a sprain with a 75 grain bullet, recoilwise.

[happy7]

Well ok, first a warning for Newbies. If you stick a bullet in the barrel, you have to remove it before shooting again or you will at a minimum damage your firearm and quite possibly yourself. Now, that that is out of the way.....

As far as light loads in general go, I have tried it. I have loaded one grain of trail boss which is just a little slower than bullseye under a 240 grain 44 bullet in 44 special cases and they exit the barrel every time out of my 7.5 inch redhawk and I have shot hundreds out of it with never a stuck bullet. And if it would stick you just push it back out. However, the problem is accuracy is poor going that slow, as in very poor. And point of impact is waaay off. Fairly quiet though and also fun to hear the pop-thud as the bullet is going slow enough the report and the impact are separate sounds. Increasing the powder charge a grain or two improves accuracy without that much extra noise. Of course even a primer is fairly loud in a revolver. Now out of my marlin lever action - that is quiet.

As to nothing ever being published: well not much but there was a "how to" article in Handloader's digest once explaining how to work your load down till the bullet stuck in the barrel and then (after removing the bullet obviously) increase till it exited reliably.

The problem with light powder charges with the 75 grain wadcutter which I have been working with recently is that the powder does not burn reliably because of the lightness of the bullet and so you're all over the place on your velocities, accuracy, etc. This I am still experimenting with. Next on the list is to try mag primers and/or dacron.

[happy7]

By the way, Red Dot does meter poorly in small doses, but I did experiment with it in the above mentioned 44 spl experiment with the 240 grain bullets down to 1.5 grains and it exited the barrel reliably. I did find two powder drops that gave consistent measurments. The Dillon drop with the extra small slide worked well and also the Lee Auto Disk with the grey mirco disk also works well.

[35remington]

Happy, I beg to differ with the Lee Micro Disk and Red Dot. I strongly urge everyone not to use the Micro Disk cavities with Red Dot. I got bridging in charges larger than the micro disk dispenses using the Pro Auto Disk cavities in the smaller sizes and squibs were apparent, some of which lodged the bullet in the barrel. Using the very small cavities with Red Dot is asking for trouble IME. Do not use Red Dot in the gray micro disk.

This wasn't for a few charges where some experimentation was done, but with hundreds of charges with the flake powders. Long term testing shows that Red Dot is not reliable with small Auto Disk cavities.

The very light bullet in .38 does complicate things, as there's a lot of free airspace that doesn't allow pressures to get very high. Given that very light recoil is obtained with heavier charges of fast powders that don't have bullet exit issues, I cannot see the sense in going that low (one grain), and of course your concerns with accuracy and point of impact have considerable merit.

If your velocities are "all over the place" with a very light charge, at some point you'll get one stuck in the barrel. For example, if the powder happens to be well forward in the case before the shot. Gil Sengel, in an article about the loading of the 38 Special in your quoted Handloader, cautions that with shallowly seated, light bullets the muzzle must be elevated to place the powder near the primer before firing or erratic velocities and vertical stringing will result........and this is with charges and bullets heavier than what the OP here is contemplating.

[halfslow]

I have been reloading the .38 for years using the old 2.7 grs bullseye load. I recently got a colt open top in 38 special and started thinking about lighter loads myself.

Anyway, the question: has anyone tried to reduce the powder space in a 38 case by seating the bullet down inside the case?
Seems like this would solve the powder position problem.

[Ricochet]

But it will also bring the pressure way up.

[GabbyM]

Anyway, the question: has anyone tried to reduce the powder space in a 38 case by seating the bullet down inside the case?
Seems like this would solve the powder position problem.

Yes it's called a 147 grain full wad cutter. For a couple of decades I thought it was the only bullet anyone shot from a revolver.

[sheepdog]

So 2 grains of Bulleye with the Wadcutter flush should be fine?