.45 Colt Snakeshot load....one more time!

[geargnasher]

Ok, here we go again!

I've read through the 2 pages of threads here about homade pistol shot loads, as well as Boge Quinn's write up at Gunblast.com but I still have a few questions in my mind before I try this and was hoping some of you could help me out.

I'm thinking about trying to make some mostly for fun for my New Vaquero and want to get as much shot in the case as possible. I read that 444 Marlin brass is virtually the same as .45 Colt as far as external dimensions go and it can be cut down to cylinder length and necked down to fit in the cylinder throat, making for a lot more case volume for shot. Has anyone actually done this? Have any pointers? Seems like it might be a challenge to get the overpowder wad in the case. I have lots of different dies to play with and an abundance of large rifle primers.

Since I know very little about internal ballistics, I'm a little concerned about "choking" the shot column like that and excessive pressure, seems like the shot would jam up at the shoulder and create a restriction that would swage the shot into a slug or even cause a kaboom, even with a very low powder charge and a card or styrofoam over-powder wad. Thoughts?

I have another hairbrained idea I wanted to run by you folks using a standard .45 colt case: Since leading seems to be a BIG problem associated with shooting shot out of a rifled barrel, how about using a shot cup made by stuffing a gas check over the powder and then stuffing a "patch" made from coffee filter material into the case with a pencil and filling it with shot, then tying the end tight with string like you would a trash bag, and add glue to the casemouth to retain the "shot bag" in the case. The coffee filter material could be lubed with LLA/jpw mix. Think it's worth a go?

Thanks in advance,

Gear

[shotman]

why not get the shot cups that are made for that? much easier and work good Speer makes them

[Dframe]

The late major George Nonte made some interesting shot cartriges using 5-1 blank cases. they are longer than standard cases and hold a bit more shot. I'll try and find his old article on it but think it was published in an old issue of "Handloader". He used to write a column for that magazine back in the day called "Tip to Tip". He was one of the most knowledgable writers of his time and is sorely missed.

[cajun shooter]

I always thought that the tip to tip was in reference to his unique mustache. His book Handloading for Handgunners has a chapter devoted to such loads. I have a copy and it makes for good reading.He talks about using 30-40 Krag cases that are cut down to use in 44 spl. and 44mag. shot loads which will hold 1/2 ounce loads. Later David

[Horace]

Gear, In the past I have used 44 Mag cases with 3 grains of unique with a gas check uprite.The gas check was not compressing the powder say thickness of check above.Add the shot to just below the case mouth so a second gas check can be inserted cup down and enought crimp added.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I thought about the same idea in my 357 mag, by using Max cases, but also was concerned with the "necked" down problem of making it fit the throat . . . and the then getting a over powder wad in . . .

The speer plastic shot case are not cheap, and the also use quite abit of space that could otherwise be filled with shot . . .

[Rocky Raab]

I used to cut .410 shotshells to cylinder length, trim the regular shot cup and hotglue a cardboard wad in to seal it all. Held just over 1/3 ounce of shot. But they won't chamber in a Ruger because the cylinder ratchet is too large. I used them in a Colt SAA clone with very good results.

Now that the Speer capsules are available, I wouldn't bother with all that.

My tips: Use the smallest shot you can get. The pattern will spread one inch per foot of range. Use the shortest barrel you have; the capsule will skid a short way before rifling starts to spin it, and spinning is bad. Short barrels patten well; long ones shoot a doughnut pattern with no shot right where you are aiming.

Load lighter than Speer recommends. High velocity blows patterns. Also do not roll crimp as recommended; that cuts the capsule. Instead, run a drop of superglue around the case mouth. Crimp only enough to straighten any belling.

[Boz330]

I'm not sure if Magtech makes 410 cases but if they do it would seem to be a match made in heaven. The sides are thin so forming them would be fairly easy and would leave more room for shot. There are several guns that shoot 410s and 45s so I would think that it would fit just fine.

Bob

[Rocky Raab]

The problem would be interference between the large .410 rim and the cylinder ratchet, as I mentioned above. Rugers won't accept a .410 shell.

[Navy_Guns]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=419806

Check out this thread on THR - I posted the pattern results I got just using plain old .45 LC brass. 212 grains (169 pellets) of 7 1/2 shot, cheap to make but LORDY does it ever lead up the bore!!! A dozen shots and it took forever to scrape & scrub all the lead out... Maybe your idea of bean-bagging the shot would help that but it seems like it would be real tedious...

[elk hunter]

The problem would be interference between the large .410 rim and the cylinder ratchet, as I mentioned above. Rugers won't accept a .410 shell.

A friend has just been making snake loads for his Ruger single action 45 Colt from 410 shot shells cut to cylinder length. He trims, primes, then 4 grains of Bullseye, a card wad, then full length sizes in a 44 die, puts in the shot and then puts a card wad on top and seals with glue. They pattern quite well considering. He tried using a cut down 410 plastic wad, but wanted more shot so went to the card wad. He apparently hasn't had any problem with rim clearance in his Ruger. Might be different rim diameters in different brands or lots.

[Rocky Raab]

That's good to hear. I had significant overlap with Rem shotshells. It might also be possible that Ruger changed their design a bit. Mine is a two-screw New Model Blackhawk I bought used almost 20 years ago.

These days, I'd still go with the Speer capsules and avoid all the hassle. I KNOW those work well. I did a lot of testing with 38 and 44 capsules after I bought out the whole inventory from a closing gun shop. (Some had price labels under two bucks, which tells you how long that store had them!)

[Leftoverdj]

.444 cases will have more capacity than cut off .410s. If the rims are a problem, turn them down to fit. A file and a drill work fine for that. Shotcups cut off .410 wads work. I picked mine up at a skeet range. BPI sells both mylar wraps and #12 shot. (I was curious enough to look, but too cheap to buy.)

Never tried necking down the forward portion to get a cylinder length case, but a .451 Lee pushthrough would be worth a try. A .430 will surely work, but the less constriction, the better.

[Dframe]

[QUOTE=cajun shooter;702648]I always thought that the tip to tip was in reference to his unique mustache. His book Handloading for Handgunners has a chapter devoted to such loads.

Yes I have his book too. And tip to tip was indeed a sly reference to his unmistakable moustache. I had the great honor of meeting him once just prowling around at a gun show. Unfortunatley he didn't have time to chat but for just a moment or two then had to be on his way. Thrilled this young 20 something back then.

[cbrick]

Interesting thread, I use my Ruger 3 screw 7 1/2" 44 mag with the Speer capsules for snake control at our range. My first loading was right out of the Speer edition V, page 793 w/44 mag brass and was an extremely light load (125 Gr #9 shot). At 10 feet not all pellets would penetrate a cardboard box. Speer says that increasing the load will open up the pattern but I found this not to be correct.

I increased the load by using the same load Speer recommended (7.3 Gr 231) and the same 125 Gr of shot but switched to 44 special brass. The pattern was very similar but all of the pellets penetrated and even took out pieces of cardboard. Since that testing I can attest to the fact that these loads also completely penetrate a diamond back's head and completely ruins the snake’s entire day.

I pre-make up the capsules with the 125 Gr of shot and super glue the cap (wad) so it doesn't come apart. I seat the capsule down to the inside taper of the case, about as far as it will go without pushing or forcing it in. I give it a very light roll crimp just to contact the capsule and then a couple of small drops of super glue on either side just for insurance.

Why 125 Gr? That is how much #9 shot the capsules hold and still get the wad fully inserted. Why #9 shot? Because that is the only bag of shot I had on hand when I made them up. Do the snakes care if it’s #9 or 12 or 6 shot? I asked but they refused to give me an answer, they squirm for a couple of minutes and then just lay there.

Barrel leading was minimal and easy to remove with just a dry bronze brush.

Rick

[troy7769]

Just a thought, but would (powder-cardboard disk-low temp wax-shot-low temp wax) work? I havent done any shot shells but i have made some wax boolits in the past. I would think the wax would lube the barrel enough to not lead so much.

[gon2shoot]

leather wad (old boots) , pellets with a light LLA coating, styrofoam (egg carton) cap, held in with paste glue.

They ain't pretty, but they work, and the leading wasn't terrible.

[Down South]

I've loaded snake loads for the 44 Mag and 357 Mag. I just acquired some #12 chilled shot and loaded some 357 Mags with it. I use a GC over 3 Gr of Bullseye and top off with the #12 shot. I fill the case to the very top with shot then tap another GC over it with a wood stick. I crimp the top GC in place. At 15 feet I can shoot through and through an aluminum soda can with a great pattern.
GC’s are much cheaper than the shot capsules and do just as well. I haven’t tried the cardboard or Styrofoam top with glue yet but that would make it even cheaper.

[AZ-Stew]

Considering inflation, the cost of the shot capsules hasn't gone up much over the last 30 years. And they're probably made of better material now than they were then. I still have some of the old yellow ones in .44 and .38. I'd say the cost of them has amortized pretty well over all those years. Expensive? Only if you're going to go out and shoot them by the box load every weekend. For carry while hiking, they're pretty cheap.

Regards,

Stew

[geargnasher]

Well, thanks for the replies, I already thought of the cut-down shotshells and found them unsatisfactory in that they only hold about 140 grains of shot after cut and the fit is not all that great.

A .410 wad is WAY too small to seal gas or protect the bore from lead (I think it would expand and the shot would drag as the petals spread and left gaps), so that's out.

As for the CCI shot capsules, I'm sure they work fine, but I'm playing here, and I'm not gonna buy them for the same reason I'm not gonna buy commercial cast boolits. I'd make the shot, too, if it was practical.

I'm still afraid to try bottlenecked cylinder-length brass (unless someone has good experience with it), so I think I may try my "Beanbag" idea.

Any starting powder/charge suggestions? I hear 3-4 grains of Red Dot, 231, etc. For fast powders I have Red Dot and Titegroup, and a bit of old Bullseye.

Off to experiment...

Gear

[Bad Water Bill]

Around the time that George was talking about snake loads someone suggested going to your local pharmacy and getting EMPTY gel capsules that just fit inside the cartridge and filling the capsules with shot and gas checks above and below. Well they have worked great for me. I have carried my 357 mag on my hip for over 40 years in the mountains and deserts and all of the snakes ran away when they heard I was coming into the area. Nope I haven't seen one since I loaded the shells. Sure worked for me.

[blaster]

I have done it with the 44 mag a light load of clays and wads cut out of a beer box, beer can, and styrafoam box with a harbor freight hollow punch sealed with elmers. Absolutly deadly on bumble bees and dragon flys and fun to boot. A piece of 44 mag brass holds about 170-80 grains of shot with powder and wads. A little work but good fun. Box or box plus can works best for the basewad and styrafoam caryout box works best for over shot.

[peter nap]

I have a 45lc/410 BFR, so I can shoot 3" shells and get good pattern...but I use full length 444' in my 45lc/410 Derringer. I can get more shot in it than a 2.5" 410. I can also load it hotter for buckshot which is the only way to hit anything with the little thing.

I also use the 444's loaded with shot in my 45/70 Handi Rifle. The ejector rides over 410 rims and the plastic hulls are only good for one shot out of it.

Nonte wrote his articles before Mylar but did sugguest putting a wrap or two of plastic around the shot. The cylinder length cases won't cause a problem but you should cut them a quarter inch short. Otherwise, they'll tie up the cylinder when they streach,

[GP100man]

I take a 357 max & anneal it then run it up in a 222 die rite to the shoulder in the die.

(i don`t have my notes to verify grs. so i won`t say)

drop my powder put a cereal box card over it & pack it tite.

fill with #9 shot that`s rolled around in a little JPW & dried good then cover with another card & roll a crimp

with the shoulder of the 222 die sealed with carpenters water proff glue let dry overnite .


This one i rolled out of the path a couple of times with a stik but still continued to pursue the matter , I WON !!!!!

Notice the date!!

[geargnasher]

Nice, GP100man, good thing you had your snake loads with you!

Do I understand you correcly that you made near cylinder-length brass for your .357 magnum by bottlenecking the Max brass? That's what I wanted to do with the .444 marlin brass but was concerned about choking the shot charge too much at the cylinder and having a bad day.

Anyway, I tried some things. My Ruger New Vaquero was the test mule because of it's longer cylinder. It takes WW and WWAA .410 hulls like a champ. I cut a few down, emptied, and filled with 4 grains Titegroup and a card wad, then coffee filter stuffed in with a pencil and packed with #8 shot, trimmed the paper and folded it in on the end and sealed with beeswax. Pattern was about 8" at ten feet and the paper pretty much seemed to be a waste of time.

Next I went back to .45 Colt brass, resized and flared slightly. 4 grains of Titegroup, card wad, 1.5" cotton cleaning patch treated with LLA/JPW stuffed into the case with a pencil and packed full of 150 grains of #7 1/2 shot, edge "spun" and folded over shot, sealed with Felix lube. This patterns like a champ (tight 4" pattern at 8 feet, 6" pattern at 10 feet, and 14" pattern at 15 feet). Zero leading with 5 shots. These loads pack a punch.

I increased the powder to 5 grains and got some pretty bad leading at the forcing cone and leading edge of the rifling. Recovered patches (blown through both sides of a regular cardboard box) were doughnut shaped with the centers blown completely out, similar to the 4 grain load.

It seems the cloth patch keeps the bore protected up to a certain point, but probably gets destroyed at the forcing cone when the powder charge is too much for the wad to contain.

I think I'll try the boot leather wad suggestion as well as LLA lubing the shot. I'm also thinking about just melting Felix lube and pouring it over the shot charge without a patch "wad" and seeing how much of a greasy mess I can make downrange!

The experiment continues...

Gear