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View Full Version : ok, now here is a weird question!



XWrench3
10-27-2009, 09:15 PM
so, i just cast the first batch of 30-30 boolits from my lee mold tonight. luckily for me, they drop out between 0.3105" and 0.3113".so, i know these will shrink a bit, but i never measured one before to find out how much. any idea how much these will shrink? /// now, here is the weird question. i had a thought, after i was done casting.
i have done, and did with these boolits, water drop them. i know that with ww's it makes them harder. now, what about dropping them into another substance, like maybe oil, or even bullet lube? would there be any affect (other than a lot of smell and unburnt hydrocarbons being released into the atmosphere) on the boolit itself? do you think it would have any hardening, or lubricating affect on the boolit? just something that crossed my mind. and before i make up yet another experiment (that i dont have time for [smilie=b:) i thought i might ask this vast ocean of knowledge.

docone31
10-27-2009, 09:23 PM
I wouldn't.
Water is good enough. If you have contaminants on the castings, you will have an extra step in casting. If you drop them into lube, they will bunch up and you will have a mess sizeing them.

Ricochet
10-27-2009, 09:33 PM
I suspect that dropping them in oil might have somewhat less of a hardening effect than dropping them in water, due to more gradual cooling, but there's only one way to find out. I'm not going to try it, because it's messy. Cold water works great!

mooman76
10-27-2009, 09:51 PM
Believe it or not they will probably grow about .001 rather than shrink. Measure them in a week and see.

geargnasher
10-27-2009, 10:57 PM
I suspect that dropping them in oil might have somewhat less of a hardening effect than dropping them in water, due to more gradual cooling, but there's only one way to find out. I'm not going to try it, because it's messy. Cold water works great!

I don't know about boolits, but oil-quenching hot steel hardens it more than water-quenching does due to oil's higher boiling point and thus leaves fewer "steam pockets" to insulate the object temporarily.

But like you said, cold water works just fine.

You really keep us guessin' changing your avatar pic so much [smilie=l: Soooooo, what do you REALLY look like?:holysheep

Gear

Ricochet
10-27-2009, 11:22 PM
My understanding is that, for steels that will tolerate it without cracking, the greatest hardening effect is from quenching in brines (elevated boiling point) with vigorous agitation to carry away steam bubbles. But I'm just reading about it.

All the pictures I post are of what I looked like when they were made. This one's from a high school football game on October 2, 2009. (I went to see my sweet and lovely little niece in the Homecoming court.)

theperfessor
10-28-2009, 12:48 AM
Water has a higher specific heat than oil, which means it can absorb more thermal energy with a lower temperature rise. Various salts are added to the water so that when you quench steel the water touching the surface of the part vaporizes; the salt crystals precipitate on the surface and then explode off again, breaking up the steam bubbles and allowing water to come in contact with the surface again.

At the temperatures used to heat treat lead alloys salt won't really help. I think oil would be a real mess and I doubt it would be any more effective than plain cool water.

Blacksmith
10-28-2009, 12:50 AM
When heat treating steel if you hold the carbon content, alloying elements and starting tempature constant then the faster you cool the harder you get which is related to the ammount of carbon you can freeze in solution with the iron. Modern metallurgy has developed combinations of steel alloys that harden best in Air, Oil, Water, Brine (salt water), something called Super Quench, and in some cases Molten Salts. if you want boolits harder try water, agitated water, cold water, brine, super quench, they can also be agitated and/or cooled. If you want to cool slower try Oil, which can be peanut, soybean, cottonseed, mineral, petroleum, etc with different viscousity and flashpoint. You can heat your quench or agitate it even selectively cool certain areas. In steel it depends on what alloy and how hard you want it how deep you want it hardened and the design of the part which might cause cracking if cooled to quickly or unevenly. Which is why on the important jobs they have experts develop the hardening, quenching, and tempering schedules.

Blacksmith

runfiverun
10-28-2009, 04:24 PM
i have thought of quenching in z-max and leaving the boolit sit in the solution for two weeks.to absorb it.
and shooting unsized and unlubed.
something i just haven't got to yet.

1Shirt
10-28-2009, 04:32 PM
Water works, is not messy, and is cheap! Oil would be messy, is not cheap, and cleaning blts would be an extra step. I water drop everything! I am cheap!
1Shirt!:coffee:

rhead
10-28-2009, 05:41 PM
It SHOULD result in a boolit that is less hard than one that is water dropped. It also may be at least somewhat tougher. (More resistant to sheering on the lands and less resistant to gas cutting.) It might shoot better in your rifle and it might shoot worse. Only your rifle can know if it is an improvement. A side by side test with that being the only difference. What weight oil? Synthetic or petroleum? Vegetable oil or animal fat. You could probably stay out of trouble for a whole winter on just this one question.

Bret4207
10-29-2009, 07:44 AM
Believe it or not they will probably grow about .001 rather than shrink. Measure them in a week and see.

My thoughts also. I've seem a growth of nearly a half a thou in .44 cal boolits over a months time. Where did the "shrinking" idea come from?

1874Sharps
10-29-2009, 08:01 AM
Not meaning to be contradictory or disrespectful, but I believe water has a higher specific heat capacity than oil. That is, a liter of water will have a smaller temperature rise when quenching a bullet than a liter of oil quenching the same bullet. "Blacksmith" is right about the quenching of common carbon steel in water and the reasons for it hardening more than if quenched in oil.

armyrat1970
10-29-2009, 08:32 AM
Throwing in a wrench. When I was around 13 my dad bought me an old pipe frame scooter. He had a machinist that worked with him build a new rear shaft. After it was machined down and heated, the machinist dropped it in oil to cool and harden. If it hardens different than water I don't know but that's what they did. Sadly the scooter was stolen after only riding it a couple of weeks.

Blacksmith
10-29-2009, 10:41 AM
Armyrat
The shaft was most likely made from one of the oil hardening steel alloys and if they dropped it in water it might have cracked from cooling too fast. There are many different types of steel alloys and different alloys are heat treated and quenched differently.

Blacksmith

JIMinPHX
10-29-2009, 11:02 AM
Different steels harden best in different quenching materials. As examples -
W-1 (water hardening drill rod) gets quenched in water.
O-1 (oil hardening drill rod) gets quenched in oil.
A-2 (air hardening tool steel) hardens up just sitting in open air after being heated.

The temperature that you need to bring the material up to before hardening also varies with the alloy. They can be looked up in places like the Machinery Handbook. The tempering steps also vary.

I've only known lead alloy boolits to be hardened by water dropping them, either out of the mold or after heating in an oven. I don't know of people trying other quenching liquids, but then I don't have a heat treat chart for lead alloys either, so I don't know what the official process is really supposed to be. You can try other liquids & see what happens. I know that some people use liquid laundry detergent or water soluble machine tool cutting fluid for dropping shot, so that the shot stays round. They might be possible options. Water has always worked fine for me. I'm sticking with that until I have a reason to change.

mdi
10-29-2009, 11:11 AM
I say do it! Where would we be if Colt had listened to his wife? If Edison had listened to his brother-in-law? I'm sure all those folks saying "don't do it" are trying to be helpful, but what is the down side? A buck for a bottle of cheap vegetable oil? Sometimes people "over think" themselves out of a good idea. Maybe your experiment will produce the best shooting cast boolits available. I don't think any danger is involved by oil quenching cast boolits, so keep us informed on your progress!

Long Live Free Thinking!

Marlin Hunter
10-29-2009, 11:50 AM
I suspect that dropping them in oil might have somewhat less of a hardening effect than dropping them in water, due to more gradual cooling, but there's only one way to find out. I'm not going to try it, because it's messy. Cold water works great!


I think when people make home made shot they drop it in antifreeze coolant. It might be that the thicker viscosity slows down the fall of the shot through the liquid and allows it to be more uniform.

Marlin Hunter
10-29-2009, 11:55 AM
i have thought of quenching in z-max and leaving the boolit sit in the solution for two weeks.to absorb it.
and shooting unsized and unlubed.
something i just haven't got to yet.

I believe Z-max is nothing more than mineral oil. You can buy a gallon for a few dollars at your hardware store. Do an MSDS search for Z-max on the web. Also do a search for what is in Z-max.

An oil product with moly or ZDDP (zinc) would be better for coating the bearing surface.


FTC Sues Speedway Motorsports and Oil-Chem Subsidiary
Performance Claims For zMax Auto Additives Are Unsubstantiated, FTC Charges

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.shtm

The agency alleges that enhanced performance claims for the product are unsubstantiated, that tests cited to support performance claims actually demonstrated that motor oil treated with zMax produced more than twice as much bearing corrosion than motor oil alone, and that the three different products - an engine additive, a fuel line additive and a transmission additive - were all actually tinted mineral oil.

JSnover
10-29-2009, 12:28 PM
There are no weird questions, just weird people :)
Why not try it and see? It might be smokey, probably be messy getting them out of the quench and into the case. Big deal. Try it and let us know how it goes.

WILCO
10-29-2009, 12:34 PM
Water is good enough.


Ditto for me!

theperfessor
10-29-2009, 07:54 PM
I wasn't trying to discourage anybody from being curious and trying something, so please don't take it that way.

A few years ago, after a lecture on what welding electrodes were made from, I had a student make his own welding rods from coat hanger wires coated with clay that he cast in a large soda straw. He brought in a bracket the next week that he had welded up. It wasn't great but it worked and he and I both learned something.

It is just that when I can spend time experimenting and I have two choices I usually pick the one that I know the least about the possible outcome.

Blacksmith
10-29-2009, 09:53 PM
The earliest electrodes for Arc welding were a low carbon steel rod with a thin lime wash dried on the surface IIRC.

Blacksmith

9.3X62AL
10-29-2009, 10:02 PM
There are no weird questions, just weird people :)

Yes, indeed--and many of them are found right here.

JIMinPHX
10-29-2009, 11:58 PM
Coat hangers are good filler material when gas welding. I've used them hundreds of times. Bailing wire makes a nicer bead though.

armyrat1970
10-30-2009, 06:27 AM
There are no weird questions, just weird people :)
Why not try it and see? It might be smokey, probably be messy getting them out of the quench and into the case. Big deal. Try it and let us know how it goes.

Agree, and, maybe some added info in our quest for the perfect cast boolit? Well?????

Bret4207
10-30-2009, 07:30 AM
Coat hangers are good filler material when gas welding. I've used them hundreds of times. Bailing wire makes a nicer bead though.

The older soft, thick wire coat hangers work much better for that than the average dry cleaners thin, stiff wire ones. Even better is form wire. 12 gauge form wire works rather good for me as filler.

XWrench3
10-30-2009, 07:47 AM
[There are no weird questions, just weird people /QUOTE]
well, i AM UNDENIABLY one of them! LOL!

[QUOTE]I say do it!
i plan to. since no one else has seemed to have tried it before.i will try a few types of lube. oil, STP, moly grease, and maybe more??? if it wasn't for experiments, we wouldn't have cures for most diseases we can cure, and many of the everyday objects we take for granted. what will probably happen, is i will make a big mess. of both my work space, and the firearm that i use to evaluate these. but, it shouldnt be expensive to clean up, so no big deal. a little mess = some more knowledge gained.

Blacksmith
10-30-2009, 04:19 PM
I'l tell you just like I told Eli Witney, Tom Edison, and those Wright boys; it will never work, you are wasting your time, if God wanted us to have preloobed boolits he would have made them that way besides we allways did it this way in the good old days!

Blacksmith

armyrat1970
10-31-2009, 09:37 AM
I'l tell you just like I told Eli Witney, Tom Edison, and those Wright boys; it will never work, you are wasting your time, if God wanted us to have preloobed boolits he would have made them that way besides we allways did it this way in the good old days!

Blacksmith

Damn. You should be so old that you should be dead by now. Is this some type of reprint that was in retospec posted as "after my demise"?