Lube for 2,100 fps .45 ACP?

[Navy_Guns]

I've been trying loads to get Warp 9 in my .45 ACP Lee Enfield rifle. The next one I'd like to try is 15.5 grains of Power Pistol with the Lee 452-160-RF bullet, Quickload suggests it'll do 2,100 fps from my 21" barrel at 35 kpsi. I've shot the Lee 452-230-TC at 1,600 fps at the same pressure and had no brass issues - those were Alox lubed and didn't lead too bad. I just got some Johnson's Paste Wax to make the 50/50 wax/alox recipe. Does anyone have experience shooting heat treated WW to 2,100 fps with this lube? If it leads it won't be the end of the world, I don't know that I'd shoot this much but I want to see if I can really get 2,100 fps. 8-)

Oh yeah, don't be stupid and try this load in a pistol.

[runfiverun]

add 10% mineral spirits it'll help blend the two.

[StarMetal]

Try mine, 357maximum's, Bullshop's, or Lar's lube.

Joe

[Ricochet]

That's awesome!

I've got the plain old Government Model, and some Lee 155 grain SWCs (from a friend on this board I still owe some BD45s in return, I haven't forgotten), that I intend to load up with a max book load of Accurate #2 just hoping I might be able to crack Mach 1. I've got that 452-160-RF mould, too, I bought it to experiment with in my Walker replica and figured it'd work in the .45 ACP as well.

BTW, if you want to mix JPW and LLA you don't need to add any thinner. Gently heat the JPW till it's molten, then must stir 'em together. The 50/50 mixture is soft, squishy and goopy, "like brown cold cream." Really nasty to mess with, but it dries hard.

[Navy_Guns]

I'm a 34 year-old man, just how am I supposed to know what consistency "cold cream" has?

[DLCTEX]

How about the consistency of sour cream?

[Ricochet]

It's about like Noxzema, except it smells a lot different and it's brown. Probably not great for taking off eye makeup.

[XWrench3]

i dunno, but your title sure got my attention! i have pushed my 45 acp pistol to just a hair over 1000 fps before, when i saw your post, i thought "this guy has got to be insane!" LOL! i did not know they made lee enfeilds in 45 acp. so is this like a regular lee enfeild 303 british that i am used to? sounds like it is shorter for sure, but is the rest close?

[yondering]

That enfield sounds like fun. I've thought about doing a similar conversion on a Mauser but never got to it.

I vote for Bullshop's Speed Green. It's kind of sticky, but about the best all-around lube I've found.

Ricochet, you can push a 200gr boolit/bullet over Mach 1 in that Government model without too much trouble. Power Pistol is a good powder for this. Not something I shoot a lot of, but I've found a good load at 1100 fps from the 1911, which also gives 1400 fps from my carbine.

[Ricochet]

Various Mausers have been converted to .45 ACP. I expect Google would turn up a bunch of interesting stuff.

I used to load 200 grain Speer "Flying Ashtrays" with Blue Dot. The old Speer manuals used to claim something like 1025-1040 FPS for them. I had no Chrony in those days.

[rockrat]

At that speed, wouldn't you need a gas checked boolit, using ww's?

[geargnasher]

It's about like Noxzema, except it smells a lot different and it's brown. Probably not great for taking off eye makeup.

roflmao![smilie=l:[smilie=l:[smilie=l: (I was thinking Butt Paste [for diaper rash] but ya beat me to it again!)

I, too am 34 and too young to know the consistency of cold creme, but I've been through a boatload of Noxzema in the not-too-distant past!

I also have to keep dabbing behind my ears for some reason......

Gear

[StarMetal]

roflmao![smilie=l:[smilie=l:[smilie=l: (I was thinking Butt Paste [for diaper rash] but ya beat me to it again!)

I, too am 34 and too young to know the consistency of cold creme, but I've been through a boatload of Noxzema in the not-too-distant past!

I also have to keep dabbing behind my ears for some reason......

Gear

Ask Ricochet about my diaper rash lube.

Joe

[Navy_Guns]

I've also launched 185 grain Gold Dots to 1,850 fps. I think I could get that to 2,000 ft/sec but the pressures would be 10 ksi higher, maybe more than what the brass & primers will stand up to safely. 45,000 psi would be catastrophic in a pistol! That's definitely one thing I appreciate about the cast boolits in this hot rod, lower pressures & less friction. The same charge that got 1,600 fps in a cast bullet only gave 1,500 fps with a Hornady XTP the same weight.

I searched the lube recipe sticky and found Bullshop's, 357 Maximum's, didn't see Lar's lube...

[Dframe]

Navy Guns, have you ever considered having your chamber lengthened to 45 Winchester magnum? Seems you could REALLY hot rod an enfield with the increased case capacity of the magnum.

[Navy_Guns]

Part of the fun is seeing what I can do with the ACP, that and I have tons and tons of brass. Besides, I'm already building a Mosin Nagant in .454 Casul... Push feeds from the original magazine oh so nicely!

[243winxb]

With a BHN 28 @35,000 psi the bullet should not lead if you believe Lee's chart. The lite 160 gr bullet should go faster than the 230 gr. for sure." Oh yeah, don't be stupid and try this load in ANY 45ACP" is what i would say. :coffeecom I am supprized the brass is in one piece. What brass are you using? Reworked , cut down, reamed 30-06? I see Starline makes a heavyer 45+Phttp://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/LeeChart.jpg http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_Alloy_20090610_1.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_1.jpg)

[Navy_Guns]

Nope, just regular assorted once-fired range brass... The predicted (NOT measured) pressures for all 3 of the super duper loads I've tested have been right at 35,000 psi and no issues with the brass at all. My chamber supports the brass all the way down and the bolt action isn't trying to extract the case while it's under pressure. I'd bet money that the web's more than strong enough and won't blow up. I'd expect the first signs of trouble I'd see would be if the primer pockets loosened up. When primers start falling out, I'll know I've gone too far.

Glad to know Richard Lee thinks I'm OK without a gas check, let's see if this Alox/JPW lube holds up. I'll report back when I've either succeeded or blown my face off...

[runfiverun]

the 460 rowland brass is a high pressure version of 45 acp brass.
and lars's lube is right down the page here seen as lar45's lsstuff.
it's also known as whitelabel lube.

[fecmech]

That's awesome!

I've got the plain old Government Model, and some Lee 155 grain SWCs (from a friend on this board I still owe some BD45s in return, I haven't forgotten), that I intend to load up with a max book load of Accurate #2 just hoping I might be able to crack Mach 1.

I used 6.4 of Bullseye behind the Saeco 160 gr for 1115 fps out of my wad gun. Seven shots cut a ragged 1" hole in a 25 yd target. Alliant lists 6.9 grs as max with a 155 gr lead for 1175 fps@19,400 PSI. Not even +P ! If AA2 doesn't get you there, BE should.

[BD]

I'm using FWFL to run cast .452s out of my .450B no leading up to 2,500 fps. I ran 250 rounds without cleaning at 1,900 fps to see it would lead with no issue at all.

Unfortunately you do need gas checks in a gas gun, (AR 15), as otherwise the gas port takes a little bite out of the base of everything that goes by and deposits it on back of the bolt with the carbon. If anyone has a .452 gas check mold lighter than 250 grains, I'd love to try some just for fun.
BD

[Ricochet]

I used 6.4 of Bullseye behind the Saeco 160 gr for 1115 fps out of my wad gun. Seven shots cut a ragged 1" hole in a 25 yd target. Alliant lists 6.9 grs as max with a 155 gr lead for 1175 fps@19,400 PSI. Not even +P ! If AA2 doesn't get you there, BE should.
Thanks!

And Starmetal Joe isn't joking about diaper rash lube. He made some up with Desitin in it.

[20nickels]

On the subject of brass, you may want to stick to the same Mfg. as you get closer to your goal though I don't believe there is any difference in strength between them. Regular .45 ACP, +P, Super, even Rowland is all the same strength if it is quality brass. You might look up a guy who posts as "Clark" on various gun boards. He has hot-rodded a mauser in ACP extensively.

[Ricochet]

Clark's hotrodded one of just about everything he shoots to the point of failure. He's got a lot of hands-on data about what they'll take. He's been on here from time to time.

[HORNET]

IIRC, Buckshot spent some time playing with steel cases in a .45 ACP bolt gun. Don't remember the details offhand. Rattle his cage and see if he remembers...

[geargnasher]

Thanks!

And Starmetal Joe isn't joking about diaper rash lube. He made some up with Desitin in it.

Joe mentioned something a little while back in a lube thread about using fish oil in boolit lube and I thought at the time that would make pretty good butt ointment, something about cod liver oil works like a charm if you can handle the stench.

I got some weird looks from a pharmacist once when I asked what she thought the smoke temperature of KY liquid was.... seemed like a reasonable question to me.......

I'm finding the .45 acp rifle fascinating, looks like great fun to shoot. I never even knew it existed before reading this thread.
Oops, gotta go dab behind my ears again!

Gear

[StarMetal]

Joe mentioned something a little while back in a lube thread about using fish oil in boolit lube and I thought at the time that would make pretty good butt ointment, something about cod liver oil works like a charm if you can handle the stench.

I got some weird looks from a pharmacist once when I asked what she thought the smoke temperature of KY liquid was.... seemed like a reasonable question to me.......

I'm finding the .45 acp rifle fascinating, looks like great fun to shoot. I never even knew it existed before reading this thread.
Oops, gotta go dab behind my ears again!

Gear

Gear,

I made lube with fish oil and I used the oil out the capsules that were in a big bottle of Fish Oil supplements. Didn't smell as bad as cod liver oil, but smelled some. Worked pretty good. Right now my lube is 50/50 Ivory soap and beeswax with a dash of Castor oil. Some of the best lube I've shot and not bragging. I want to try 357maximum's new super lube of micro-crystalline wax, paraffin, and Walmart brand lithium grease. He has searched for years and says this is the stuff. In speaking with him he told me that if I developed really good and very accurate loads with my lube I'd be a fool to switch to his. Basically saying I'd have to start my load development all over.

Joe

[Navy_Guns]

Seriously? Lube affects the accuracy of a load? I'm ignorant enough not to know, I wouldn't have thought so. I was just under the impression that one chooses a lube that prevents leading and isn't too hateful in the application and handling process.

[runfiverun]

it's the way lube prevents leading that can effect accuracy.
does it coat the bore or prevent gas flow.
does it come off when leaving the bbl or stay on during flight.
does it flow well under the pressures being used. [change state under pressure]
viscosity matched with pressure,can help as much as alloy flexing or engraving properly.
with your acp in the long bbl your lead and lube are going to go through s couple of changes in it's travell. from static to being shoved forward to having a constant pressure then to not having much pressure behind the boolit to it's release from the bbl.
with engagement of the rifling and twisting starting [alloy]

[XWrench3]

I'll report back when I've either succeeded or blown my face off...

actually, your widow will have to get back to us if you blow your face off! SO DON'T DO IT!!!

[curator]

I have been quietly hot-roding my Reinland .45 Enfield converstion too. My approach has been to use the Lee 45-255RF and the Lyman 454290 (?) a 250 grain "Keith" SWC-GC, both made from water quenched WW. 1600fps is possible with no leading using LBT "blue" lube. I am using Starline +P brass and Unique or AA#5.

[45 2.1]

I have been quietly hot-roding my Reinland .45 Enfield converstion too. My approach has been to use the Lee 45-255RF and the Lyman 454290 (?) a 250 grain "Keith" SWC-GC, both made from water quenched WW. 1600fps is possible with no leading using LBT "blue" lube. I am using Starline +P brass and Unique or AA#5.

Lyman also made the 454490 mold in a lighter weight, about 225 gr. before they changed it to the present heavy 255 gr. boolit. That one is GC'd also and is quite accurate. I've been looking for a SC mold to have HP'd for it.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Navy Guns

Please report back on your progress with project. I will be following it with anticipation. How well does your Enfield group with the loads you have aready developed? Any target pictures?

Regards,
Everett

[BerdanIII]

Sounds like you've got this guy beat:

From: Highest Velocities in .45 ACP Cases, The Fouling Shot #180

"I've built two .45 ACP carbines on Mauser M93/M1916 actions. …The Mauser actions (even the weakest M93) are grossly stronger than necessary for a .45 ACP. The M93 was designed for average pressures in the 35,000 - 40,000 PSI range, while most loading guides suggest 18,000 - 20,000 PSI for .45 ACP pistols."

"This project anticipated numerous case failures, so some risk was also assumed. I will readily concede that my results are by no means absolute, and that another CB shooter may possibly exceed them. I do not recommend the attempt, and wish good luck on anyone who tries."

"Testing ammo to best accuracy from the carbines, results improved right up to the book maximum loads, which are roughly half of what the actions are built to handle."

"The project began with a variety of freshly fired brass from the range I maintain. Several of the hundreds of the common brands of plain brass cases were tested; these proved to be the weakest. With one exception, all failed at the same over-load level."

"Next stronger were nickel plated Winchester, R-P and Federal cases. None were stamped "+P". I noticed that .45 ACP ammo retailed as +P seem to be nickel plated, and all those I tested were consistently stronger than ordinary unplated brass."

"Third strongest were the exception noted above. They are unplated Winchester "Win-Clean" cases, and have small primer pockets. The package label states that they must not be reloaded with small pistol primers, so I loaded them with small rifle primers."

The fourth and strongest cases were steel Boxer primed Russian cases. The mail-order advertisement said "reloadable" but the ammo package did not recommend reloading. …I never succeeded in causing one to fail. …My conclusion is that for the absolutely highest sustainable velocity, use steel cases one time - and discard them. Normal pressures result in steel cases which resize normally, but high pressures definitely do work harden the steel, and after 2 - 3 reload cycles, they become bear-huggers to resize, and will also split longitudinally."

"Pressure related case failures were, overwhelmingly, stretched primer pockets. No primers actually fell out, but pockets would not retain new primers. Pockets consistently enlarged well before any sign of cratering or hard extraction showed up."

"Of the numerous powders tested, Alliant Blue Dot gave best velocities short of case damage, just short 1500 f.p.s. with my preferred 300 yard silhouette bullet (the Lee 452-255-RF) over an inverted gas check. The shorter 200 grain version can happily be driven to 1650 - 1675 f.p.s., but is considerably more drift sensitive, and has substantially less striking energy."

"The top load that I use with confidence is 13.5 grains of Blue Dot, Winchester large pistol primer, the Lee 255-RF cast bullet over an inverted gas check at an over all length 1.300". This charge is compressed .035" (about 9%). This OAL puts .452" sized bullets in firm contact with the throat. Velocity averages 1848 f.p.s. with standard deviation of 15 - 18 f.p.s. Ten rounds reliably go into the quick-kill zone of the NRA pig at 265 yards with the aperture sight, and (surprisingly) shoot only very slightly better with the 6X scope. "

"This carbine ammo will not load into a M1911 magazine, nor will it chamber in a M1911. But it is well to be mindful that these loads would likely turn a M1911 into a fragmentation grenade."

"My estimation of pressure was not far off. When the load details were crunched in Quick Load, 36,000 p.s.i. emerged."

"My favorite plinker load is 7.0 grains of IMR PB under a .050" vegetable fiber gasket wad and the 255 grain bullet for 1175 f.p.s. and 3 SD."

[Ricochet]

I haven't yet noticed Wolf steel .45 ACP cases becoming bear-huggers to reload, using a normal Lyman carbide sizing die without lube. They work just like brass cases. They're harder to find on gravel, though.

[Navy_Guns]

Hmm...

My Quickload for a Lee 255RF at 1.300" OAL and 13.5 grains of Blue Dot says it'd peak at 43,000 psi and give 1,524 fps in my 21" barrel - quite different from 35,000 psi and 1800+ fps. Still, I'm pretty confident that my 160 grain load won't blow up my gun. Mold came yesterday in the mail, the bottle of Plum blueing solution broke on my RCBS lead dipper in the box and leaked all over everything. Midway's sending a replacement for free and I don't have to worry about my ladle rusting... :bigsmyl2: