Brass Importance for Cast II

[Bass Ackward]

Well, I finished to "my satisfaction" my tests of brass. I am going to forgo specific information in this report because this was "maximum" level testing with figures far above loading manuals basically because of seating depths which would alarm some folks and bias them against my test results. I was focusing on using H110 and 296 at the top end without any specific consideration for accuracy. Only to look at brass types and how crimp affected velocity and thus pressure.

I re-enforsed my understanding of why crimp creates such varried results and thus opinions from different folks. There is a narrowing of it's importance or effect on pressure / velocity the slower the burn rate of powder that you go. And crimp effect is also minimized at some point when enough pressure is produced to get "good enough" ignition or burn rate from reasonably slow powders for a cartridge. Above these burn rate or pressure levels, crimp basicaly becomes a deterent against bullet pull which only means closer ES from varring seating depths / case capacities.

Example: Using 4831 in a 44 Mag was soooo slow that no amount of crimp made any difference with any charge level. Using maximum charges of 296 and H110 did little to affect velocity other than to minimize ES from changing seating depths. BUT, going below @ 28,000 psi with H110 and 296 and crimp importance picked up again as demonstrated by changing velocity levels. So again two guys can form different opinions based on how they are using the same powder in the same cartridge. A guy that might use H110 to cut pressure on a PB bullet that he wants to be easier on his components would value a good crimp. The guy who was only interested in maximum velocity would see little value for crimp.

So if I had to generalize for the 44 Mag only, crimp has a "tremendous" effect on pressures / velocity when using powders that are capable of producing burn rates of at least 92% or higher (Quickload predicted) with a certain load. Especially when lower charges of that same powder are used that would obviously result in less ignition and burn rate percentages. (I hope I worded that clearly enough.)

Powders that produce less than a 92% burn rate at maximum levels see crimp as much less of a factor. H110 and 296 are only capable of 85% burn rates with this bullet and seating depth at maximum pressure levels in a 44 mag. But even here crimp can move back up in importance if pressures are dropped below @ 28,000 which is @ a 75% burn rate. This .... "guestimate" results in "valuable" (to me) information when running Quickload simulations of different powder selections to determine what crimp level I might want to use for that powder. Thus, opinions here on differences in brass type would be minimized in it's importance for cast with these powders.

What is most valuable to me from these tests affects my bullet designs for dual use calibers. I want to design a long crimp groove on all my designs regardless of weight. Then I have the most flexibility across the widest powder choices and velocity ranges for use in either type of firearm.

[44man]

Bass, I do not see this as a valid test! What you should have tested is case tension with the exact same crimp. This means a variety of expanders so you can compare what each does to velocity and most important of all--Accuracy.
I keep saying that all you are seeing is a difference in the burn rate of the powder instead of the effect of crimp. I have found the crimp has very little effect. Another thing that bothers me is that you have varied the seating depth which has a drastic change on chamber pressure. This negates any crimp changes.
I don't care what you do, changing the crimp has almost no effect on how a powder burns.
Take a .44 case, unsized and finger seat a boolit, crimp until the boolit is cut almost in half and what do you have--- a junk load!
I'm sorry, but if you can expain how 1/32" of brass curled in can change the burn rate and efficiency of powder, you have discovered something wonderful. Now explain how to make it work for every load.

[buck1]

WOW .I love it here!!!!! Let me get my popcorn and I will be right back! :) .....Buck

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I do not see this as a valid test! What you should have tested is case tension with the exact same crimp. This means a variety of expanders so you can compare what each does to velocity and most important of all--Accuracy.
I keep saying that all you are seeing is a difference in the burn rate of the powder instead of the effect of crimp. I have found the crimp has very little effect. Another thing that bothers me is that you have varied the seating depth which has a drastic change on chamber pressure. This negates any crimp changes.
I don't care what you do, changing the crimp has almost no effect on how a powder burns.
Take a .44 case, unsized and finger seat a boolit, crimp until the boolit is cut almost in half and what do you have--- a junk load!
I'm sorry, but if you can expain how 1/32" of brass curled in can change the burn rate and efficiency of powder, you have discovered something wonderful. Now explain how to make it work for every load.


44man,

I tried to evaluate this fairly simply as a normal reloading techniques would reveal. Just like the last test. I suppose that you can say that it is not valid because I changed the crimp. Well, bingo, you got it. Brass makes a difference. You can't change the brand of brass WITHOUT changing the crimp to some degree. And case neck tension too for that matter. The amount of anneal is also a concern that was not evaluated as it affects springback and thus case neck tension too. So how much of my results are anneal related and how much relate strictly to crimp? Or neck tension? Don't know. I am not being picky here between a few reloadings of the same cases because I don't anneal pistol cases. At least right now. All I wanted to know is does brass make a difference beyond case volume? Under certain circumstances, with certain bullet designs and powder choices and load levels, and bullet metals, it seems it can.

I did not change seating depth when using the same bullet. Where did you get that? I just tried one bullet for simplicity here that I used in the last test to have apples to apples comparrisons because I did not want to spend any more time than neccesary operating at these levels.

I did not want to bring accuracy into the equasion because to do so brought so many more variables into the test. Accuracy is subjective that either me or my gun may not be capable of producing. Or producing to your standards. Or on a consistent basis. So while a target can lie, a chronograph won't.

But even you would have to admit that case neck tension alone won't keep a bullet in place under recoil. But a crimp with little case neck tension will. Retarding forward bullet motion can and will build pressure. Whether you use bullet weight, or case neck tension, crimp, or seat into the lands if applicable. It all can have an effect on pressure and thus velocity. Will it make more of a difference if you have too much retardation? Yes. You will need a slower powder to compensate. Or not enough? Yep. You will operate better on the fast end of the burn rate chart. So a light case neck tension and crimp might just be the ticket for a fast powder and not necesarily result in a junk load. Yes?

These are all horses pulling the same wagon in my mind. The name of the game is you learn to control and do what is necessary to get the correct retardation factor to .... consistently burn the powder speed of choice. Once you go too slow in the burn rate scheme, nothing works. Game over.

[buck1]

Good post Bass, thanks for sharing you results! ....Buck

[44man]

Bass, OK, sorry, I did misread what you were doing and I agree that the brass is very important, some too soft to give good pull and crimp.
Yes, I believe in a good firm crimp as long as it is not over crimped and it will help retain a boolit with looser neck tension. But, I insist that it will not correct poor neck tension, it will just hold the boolit under recoil. Once that little bit of brass unfolds, the lack of tension will not retard the powder burn. These loads can be very accurate, AS LONG AS EVERY CASE IS EXACTLY THE SAME. Velocity will be a little low with slow powders.
You have hit on the reason I buy only one brand of brass.
Now, do you want to hear of a total disaster? I was having trouble years ago, using RCBS dies that gave poor and varying case tension and zero accuracy. I took 10 cases and carefully annealed the necks. I crimped them very tight in boolits with a large, deep crimp groove. I got ONE shot and had 5 other boolits out of their cases. I fooled around for an hour trying to remove the cylinder. Have you ever tried to get a boolit back in a chambered case with a little crimp still rolled on it? I had to cut a boolit nose off. 10 wasted cases in the trash!
In my opinion, brass for a heavy recoiling handgun must be hard enough to be just short of the necks splitting from crimping. ( just the very edge of the crimp, not the whole neck.) In fact, a split crimp edge now and then shows they are right and these will give the best accuracy and velocity for the load. And, very important, they must not be over expanded.
This is also the reason for just a good firm crimp. Crimping these cases too hard will shortly ruin the brass.
Look at the full profile crimp on factory .454 brass. This brass does not last long.
I get 30 to 40 heavy loads out of my brass with only one or two lost with a split crimp edge.

[Dale53]

I guess a brief comment on neck tension would not be out of place in this thread...
Years ago (MANY years ago), I was shooting a great deal with a .44 Special (Mod 24 S&W 6"). I reloaded using .44 special dies. My regular load was a 250 gr Keith with 7.5 Unique. Good load with adequate power (aobut 1000 fps) for the purpose at hand. Then I got my first .44 magnum (Ruger SBH 7.5"). At the same time, since I now had a magnum I bought some "magnum" powder. This happened to be H110. I had excellent results with the H110 in the .44 magnum, now using a set of RCBS dies for the .44 magnum.
Using my .44 Special dies and .44 Special cases in my Special, I loaded up some with a proper load of H110 for the Special and promptly had a bullet fail to clear the barrel. I continued to shoot (and watch carefully) and it happened again. About one in five would fail to clear the barrel. Now, I already had an idea what the problem might be. I checked the resized case diameter and the .44 special expander. The case was not near sized down as much as when using my .44 magnum RCBS dies (my .44 Special dies were Pacific, I believe). Further, the .44 special expander was too large. In effect, I had little or NO case neck tension. I had a good crimp and tests revealed that a heavier crimp did NOT solve the problem. However, when I used the RCBS dies reset for the .44 Special, I had MUCH more neck tension. This totally solved the problem and, in fact, all these years later I have had exactly "zero" repeats of this problem. Why? Because I make certain that I have adequate neck tension in all of my revolver loads.

Of course, heavy neck tension is NOT a panacea for all problems in reloading. You can have so much neck tension that you destroy all of that careful figuring and perfect sizing we talk about so much and damage the bullets to the point that it seriously affects accuracy. The softer the bullet, the easier it is to damage them.

So, as the philosopher states, "Everything in moderation". Even moderation...:mrgreen:

Dale53

[44man]

DALE, YOU ARE THE MAN! Exactly what I have been saying all along.
With your experience so graphic, I do not know how anyone can question your results and rely on a crimp.

[Bass Ackward]

DALE, YOU ARE THE MAN! Exactly what I have been saying all along.
With your experience so graphic, I do not know how anyone can question your results and rely on a crimp.


To All,

1. There are a lot of accurate loads with Bullseye powder and soft lead that you can't use much case neck tension or risk distorting the bullets or losing accuracy. Crimp is all you got. Case neck tension has very little role in the accuracy of those target loads. They work, and work well.

2. I also showed, from my first test with a mid burn rate range powder like Herco, that by changing crimp, with already strong neck tension, that I could raise pressures and velocity by the equivalent of 2 grains of powder over what was predicted by a manual or computer. So crimp can be a BIG factor to pressure.

3. There is a whole powder industry that makes humteen different powders in very small burn rate steps just because reloaders can't (or won't learn to) adapt their technique to make certain powders work. Especially, in guns that use straight sided cases.

The amount of examples for accuracy would be endless. And thus you see the popularity of this board. Accuracy can be found across what seems to be an endless spectrum of methods and techniques. And at each point, something can move in and out of importance as a factor. So from those examples above, I would say you can't make a .... blanket statement about case neck tension being a key to accuracy. Or that crimp has little or no bearing on velocity, burn rate, or accuracy.

Unless you get more specific and ask the question this way: What is the key to handgun accuracy using full charges of H110 / 296 powders with hard, heavy, bullets, sized less than throat diameter in a 44 Mag handgun? Then case neck tension would be a large key to accuracy where crimp has little effect and only used to prevent bullet pull. But just as soon as you make that statement, along will come somebody else that will produce accuracy with a soft bullet that isn't using heavy case neck tension. Then where are you?

This board is THE GREATEST learning tool and sourse OF INFORMATION because you see it here in posts all the time. NOT because a single topic or issue is ever settled or "fact" established. What makes this board valuable is the lessons of other methods and ideas. It keeps us from closing our minds to possibilities!

In the end, if you want to shoot cast effectively, you have to have the ability (flexibility) to look at your results down a bore, or on a target, or across a chronograph .... and learn to .... adapt your reloading equipment and techniques to match the variables "YOU" create to obtain accuracy under those conditions.

Otherwise, you will be someone that will be limited to accuracy in only one burn rate range of powders per cartridge using a specific set of criteria. The result is that you will form biases about bullet hardness, case neck tension, crimp, primers, lubes, and the list goes on to cover everything this board discusses.

This is why I continue to test, and to read this board, and enter into discussions about the topics we discuss here. It forces me to keep an open mind.

[felix]

So, let's agree that crimp comes into play when there is little or no case tension. Let's also agree that the slower the powder is for the application, the more case tension comes into gainful play. And, let's also agree that crimping is only for stopping any boolit movement either in-to or out-of the case when not intended, or when there is not enough case tension that should have been there for that application. ... felix

[buck1]

I had to read it twice but ,I,ll buy that! ..Buck

[45 2.1]

To All,

1. There are a lot of accurate loads with Bullseye powder and soft lead that you can't use much case neck tension or risk distorting the bullets or losing accuracy. Crimp is all you got. Case neck tension has very little role in the accuracy of those target loads. They work, and work well.

2. I also showed, from my first test with a mid burn rate range powder like Herco, that by changing crimp, with already strong neck tension, that I could raise pressures and velocity by the equivalent of 2 grains of powder over what was predicted by a manual or computer. So crimp can be a BIG factor to pressure.

3. There is a whole powder industry that makes humteen different powders in very small burn rate steps just because reloaders can't (or won't learn to) adapt their technique to make certain powders work. Especially, in guns that use straight sided cases.

The amount of examples for accuracy would be endless. And thus you see the popularity of this board. Accuracy can be found across what seems to be an endless spectrum of methods and techniques. And at each point, something can move in and out of importance as a factor. So from those examples above, I would say you can't make a .... blanket statement about case neck tension being a key to accuracy. Or that crimp has little or no bearing on velocity, burn rate, or accuracy.

Unless you get more specific and ask the question this way: What is the key to handgun accuracy using full charges of H110 / 296 powders with hard, heavy, bullets, sized less than throat diameter in a 44 Mag handgun? Then case neck tension would be a large key to accuracy where crimp has little effect and only used to prevent bullet pull. But just as soon as you make that statement, along will come somebody else that will produce accuracy with a soft bullet that isn't using heavy case neck tension. Then where are you?

This board is THE GREATEST learning tool and sourse OF INFORMATION because you see it here in posts all the time. NOT because a single topic or issue is ever settled or "fact" established. What makes this board valuable is the lessons of other methods and ideas. It keeps us from closing our minds to possibilities!

In the end, if you want to shoot cast effectively, you have to have the ability (flexibility) to look at your results down a bore, or on a target, or across a chronograph .... and learn to .... adapt your reloading equipment and techniques to match the variables "YOU" create to obtain accuracy under those conditions.

Otherwise, you will be someone that will be limited to accuracy in only one burn rate range of powders per cartridge using a specific set of criteria. The result is that you will form biases about bullet hardness, case neck tension, crimp, primers, lubes, and the list goes on to cover everything this board discusses.

This is why I continue to test, and to read this board, and enter into discussions about the topics we discuss here. It forces me to keep an open mind.

Very Good John! Now for you others, everybody keeps talking about case neck tension. I wish you would get to the real point about it since most listen to you and not me. Crimp does have a great effect dependent on just what you do. Talking about one cartridge hardly covers all the others which have different characteristics.

[44man]

Felix, I agree. Fast powder does not need tension and soft boolits can be ruined by it. Low recoiling guns will cause no big problems.
All of my shooting is with heavy boolits, slow powder and for extreme range and accuracy. So I am biased that way. I don't own anything smaller then a .44 mag, except several Ruger .22's. When I want to plink, those are what I grab. I have almost zero need for pipsqueek loads in a large handgun since they are what I hunt with.
I overlook the fact that many of the guys like those loads and I have shot a bunch over the years but I leave everything the same except for a powder change. My boolits are still hard, tension is the same and crimp is the same. I have never seen a need to use a soft boolit or a case tension change for light loads and mess with what works for me. Everything works just fine with a fast powder. I would do the same thing if I was shooting a .38 special!
Years ago when undersize, soft boolits were used that had to bump up, or dead soft .38 wadcutters were the rage, dies were designed for a maximum expansion to protect the boolit. (And I remember getting .38's to work on that were so packed with lead, the rifling was not visible.) Some die makers kept the same dimensions for the magnums and they just don't work unless one was to only shoot soft lead and light loads with fast powder, or heavy loads with the slowest powder available at the time. Even the first factory .44 mags were loaded with soft boolits and a healthy dose of a faster powder. With the slower powders, all of that thinking goes out the window. And guess what! The new way with hard boolits, good neck tension, firm crimp and fast powder works very well, just as good as with slow powder. OH, I forgot---with Felix lube too!

[Dale53]

Bass Ackward;
I had to laugh when I saw your post. When I wrote the one just above you, I thought about adding a paragraph similar to your #1 but decided my post was long enough. So, we are certainly on the same page on that one. In fact, for my .38 wadcutter loads, I had a special expander made so that it is long enough, and large enough that the soft HBWC are not damaged when seating. I still shoot a lot of those HBWC's in my .32 mag and .38 specials.

>>>This is why I continue to test, and to read this board, and enter into discussions about the topics we discuss here. It forces me to keep an open mind.<<<

Amen!

You good people have no idea how much I enjoy our discourse.:drinks:

Dale53

[44man]

It is not really a discourse, when all is said and done and the post is full, you will see we are all right and do agree on most everything.
Where I stick my foot in my mouth is not realizing how many of you shoot soft boolits and fast powders. The loading techniques are different from what I use and the type of shooting most of you do is far different. Mine is for long range, power with accuracy and geared only for hunting in the long run.
All I ask is for all of you to accept my shortcomings!
I have found a way to get in a lot of close range shooting with light loads in autos, etc. I wait until my friends come over with their guns and I shoot theirs. So there, beat that if you can!

[Dale53]

I guess the real "trick" is to learn to load for different purposes. When I shoot for fun, I use target loads. When I am gearing up for hunting deer, I use the .44 magnum and full loads. I may shoot as many as 2500 rounds of full loads in the weeks preceding deer season. I practice field positions, two handed offhand, sitting, off a rest, off a post (represents a tree), etc. My goals are to be as efficient in the field as possible. It IS interesting to see what we can do at long range (200 yards for me) but for hunting, all of my deer have been killed at under 100 yards. Half have been killed much closer. I shot one at ten yards. My thing is not long range when hunting, but I try to see how close I can get.

Locating a deer before they know I am present and stalking them is MY thing.

Now that I am getting old and feeble:( , deer hunting will become less important. I have a bad back and dragging a deer out of the woods is becoming less and less likely to occur. However, small game is still practical and I have NEVER considered small game to be "small potatoes".

Some of my most memorable hunts have been small game with the handgun. Whether hunting grouse in Michigan, or rabbits and squirrels in Ohio wherever legal, I will normally have a handgun at hand. There are many shots of "opportunity" and the great portability of a handgun makes all of this possible regardless if you are carrying a shotgun or rifle.

Dale53

[Bucks Owin]

Just my two centavos, but the amount of "crimp" has far less to do with accuracy than does consistent neck tension. (Or "bullet pull" if you'd rather) That and consistent ignition (re primer seating) are the two biggest factors in accuracy that we have any control over IMO. (Assuming a good boolit is used) Even the careful weighing of powder charges has less effect on accuracy than "pull and spark" does, ask any benchrester....

Compared to having the right expander in the first place, "crimp" pressure has such minimal effect on accuracy as to be nonexistent in my view....

(In fact, no crimp at all would be best for accuracy as long as the case is sized properly)

JMO,

Dennis

Think "TENSION" and not "CRIMP"....