Ruger Bisley Hunter .44 Mag

[JudgeBAC]

Last fall I acquired a .44 mag Ruger Bisley Hunter .44 mag. I immediately mounted a 4x Leupold handgun scope and began reloading. Over the last 6 months I have tried about every combination conceivable including 180 gr. , 200 gr. 225 gr and 240gr. Hornady, Speer and Sierra bullets with WW296, 2400, N110, H110 wwprimers and CCI 350 primers. I could not obtain any acceptable groups at 50 yards. Some were less than 3 inches but most were more and the same loads were often inconsistant. I measured the cylinders which measured .431 and the bore measured .4285. It appears this must be the problem. I then tried 300 gr. Sierra flat points with WW primers and N110 and low and behold am now getting 1.5 in groups at 50 yards. I suppose I am limited to 300 gr. bullets. I have ordered a Lee mold C430 gas checked 310 gr. Anybody out there have any experience with this bullet and or other 300 gr. bullets in .44 mag? Also any other suggestions as to whether any 240 gr. or maybe a 250 Keith bullet might work in this gun considering the cylinder bore difference?

[Dale53]

The Lee C430 310 gr GC bullet is a fine bullet. In a number of .44's at my local club
it is the most accurate bullet the owners have yet tried, including jacketed. It is also a SUPER big game bullet. That big meplat just flat "slaps 'em down"!

Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

I measured the cylinders which measured .431 and the bore measured .4285. It appears this must be the problem.


Judge,

Welcome to the real world. There is usually a difference between the measurements. When the bore diameter is smaller than the bullet diameter though, you are going to build pressure. Some guns are more sensitive to bullet diameter and hardness than others. You will simply have to vary your bullet diameter and try it. You may well do better with cast for the softer reason.

But too small is better than too large and can always be corrected at some later date. It WILL correct itself over time. And in truth, it may have already started to clean up. The gun may just be breaking in. And your testing with the other bullet designs may start to shoot if you repeated those tests.

A gun has to break in before you know what you have to work with. But this means that you will need to continue to slug it until things stabilize. My Redhawk2 was .430 and now is .4305. Just copper and clean.

[Bucks Owin]

Greetings amigo!

I'm just getting started with experiments with the 310 gr Lee too. There's a big thread about this boolit in the "Cast Boolits" section....

Best,

Dennis

BTW, my ol Flattop also has a .4285" groove diameter at the muzzle (it has a little "choke" in it) with throats of .432+". It shoots like a rifle so I wouldn't worry "too" much about your measurements....
Main thing IMO is that the throats aren't too small!

[JudgeBAC]

Gentlemen: Thanks for the info and the suggestion to look at the Lee thread on the 310 gr. bullet. I can't wait for mine to arrive. I just spent a week casting ingots of lead and linotype. I mixed lead and linotype 50/50. I hope it makes good bullet metal in this mold.

[Doughty]

JudgeBAC,

I don't want to be presumptious about what you might have already tried, however some things come to mind that you might check if you haven't already done so.

First thing I thought of is "scope on a .44." When I first tried this I had trouble keeping the scope mounted securely. Later on I had a scope that wouldn't handle the recoil. However, if you do have one load that shoots okay, this is probably not the problem.

I'm not sure from your post if you have already tried some cast or if you have just tried jacketed. Before shooting cast, all copper fouling must be remove from the bore.

It's possible that you may have a slight barrel constriction where the barrel is screwed into the frame. This is a commom problem in a lot of revolvers. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest measuring a slug driven into the muzzle a short distance and then pulled back out. Compare this with one driven all the way through. If the one driven all the way through is smaller, this may be your problem. In my experience, this problem will affect both jacketed and cast, but is much more of a problem with cast.

Just some things to consider if you haven't already done so.

Good luck.

[44man]

Old Vic has said everything important! I suspect a tight spot at the threads also. Fire lapping can take care of that.
If you want to try a good load with the Lee 300 gr, use 21.5 gr's of 296 and the Federal 150 primer. Don't size the boolit, use a .431" to lube at the start, then try small amounts of sizing to see what happens. Make sure you have good case tension and a firm crimp.
My friend just sent me a picture of a fantastic 50 yd group he shot with the Lee. He left the gas check off to see what would happen and his Ruger loved it.

[JudgeBAC]

Vic: The scope is definately not a problem since the 300 grainers shoot so well. I also put loc tite on the screws. So far I have not shot any lead bullets, waiting on the 310 gr. Lee mould to arrive. I will clean all the copper out of the barrel prior to shooting cast. Thanks for reminding me of that one I would not have remembered. I did slug the barrel but must ask a stupid question. How do you partially drive a slug into the bore and pull it back out?

.44 man: Thanks for the suggestion. I just finished reading a bear tooth bullets article on fire lapping and will definately try it. Hopefully I will be able to obtain decent groups with other bullets. I hate to be confined to one bullet weight. When my 310 mould arrives I will also follow your suggestion and not size it.

Thanks again gentlemen

[fourarmed]

Judge, you can slug the muzzle a couple of ways. Drive it halfway in, and pull it out with pliers is one way. Another is to cut a piece of dowel about a half inch shorter than the distance from the muzzle to the standing breech. Drop it down the barrel, then drive the slug into the muzzle until it contacts the dowel. This will swell the slug so that you get an accurate diameter. Use a screwdriver or the like to pry the dowel up, ejecting the slug. Be sure to grease the bore and slug so they come out easy.

[Doughty]

Judge,

The above mentioned ways will work. I use some speciality slugs made for this purpose. You can screw a section of cleaning rod onto the tail. After tapping them in , you can pull them back out with the rod. They can be driven all the way through and used for that measurement also. This might make it a little easier for all the measurements you might make if you decide to lap your bore. I can supply you with some of these. If you are interested contact me by e-mail at doughty@blackfoot.net.

1430

[44man]

Those look great. What would be nice is to make a small slide hammer puller to the rod so it is easy to get it back out.

[454PB]

I don't know why you would want to do a partial slugging of the barrel. If the idea is to learn whether there is a tight spot at the frame/barrel/forcing cone, you will feel it when you drive the slug through the barrel.

[Bass Ackward]

I don't know why you would want to do a partial slugging of the barrel. If the idea is to learn whether there is a tight spot at the frame/barrel/forcing cone, you will feel it when you drive the slug through the barrel.


454PB,

Really? What if your problem is that you still have a burr on the leade of the rifling from cutting the cone with a reamer that is on it's last legs? Won't that feel like a constriction? And it will just shoot off. No sence lapping for that.

What if you have two rifling a little closer (or farther apart) at one point than they were because the botton skipped a little? OR they were rough on the vertical drive sides at that point? That would offer drag and make you .... feel that you have a constriction that is harder and takes longer to shoot out. Not to mention tool marks.

That is why I say to slug every step of the way in the fire lap process. And you have to use multiple slugs to know. One through and through can lie to ya. From this false conclusion, some people might believe that they have 50 shots ahead of them and they really took care of the problem with just 6. And at the very least, I would want to know so I knew where to start on the abrasive scale. The finer you can start with in the begining, the less potential you have for damage.

It is for these reasons above that I don't care for hand lapping. If you mistake a constriction for one of the above problems, you concentrate in removing the problem by hand, you will actually cut in all directions. Thus YOU "create" a bulge in your barrel by hand. Where with fire lapping, ONLY the high spots get removed if done correctly.

[grumble]

"...It is for these reasons above that I don't care for hand lapping. If you mistake a constriction for one of the above problems, you concentrate in removing the problem by hand, you will actually cut in all directions. Thus YOU "create" a bulge in your barrel by hand. Where with fire lapping, ONLY the high spots get removed if done correctly."

Interesting thoughts, Bass. Shows to go ya how different things work for different people. My thoughts are that hand lapping allows you to "feel" what's being cut and thus gives greater control. I guess it all boils down to what works for each person?

[454PB]

I always shoot a few hundred jacketed bullets through a new gun to help smooth the tool marks. I've never done the "fire lapping", but have to say I don't think much of the idea of firing abrasives down the barrel.

I guess I've been very lucky, in the dozens of revolvers I own or have owned, I've not been aware of any barrel constriction or faulty forcing cones. I'm not saying they don't exist, but if they were in any of these guns, they didn't affect accuracy.

I have had fellow shooters bring a revolver to me that they said wouldn't shoot cast boolits, and without fail I was able to prove them wrong, by using the basic practices of proper barrel cleaning, correct boolit sizing and lubrication, and load development. Maybe I've just been extremely lucky:shock:

[JudgeBAC]

Folks: I just received the Lee 310 gr mold with gas checks. I cant wait to cast some bullets and shoot them. I hope to get out this weekend and shoot and I will post a reply and let you know how it goes. In the meantime thanks again for the helpful suggestions.:-D :-D :castmine:

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=grumbleMy thoughts are that hand lapping allows you to "feel" what's being cut and thus gives greater control. I guess it all boils down to what works for each person?[/QUOTE]


Grumble,

Yes. I would agree if and only if you have a constriction. But while you are removing it by feel, you may be changing the angle on your twist rate of the rifling too. A hand lap cuts 360 first ti9me every time. Once a fire lapped slug sizes down , it cut only at the spot and cutting stop s from that point on until the next round is fired.

But your point of what ever floats your boat is what America is all about.


454,

Every single projectile you place down your bore is an abrasive to some degree. If you use antimony bullets, antimony is an abrasive itself. Especially if it is not countered by the same percentage of tin. That is why many ol timers would only use lead / tin mixes. So in reality, you fire lap every time a round goes down range. The only difference is how abrasive you actually make it.

[lovedogs]

Some time ago I was fighting the famous "Ruger constriction" in a stainless .44 and was checking out the various cures. Some of the folks on this forum had good suggestions for me to try.

I also called and talked with some of the people who make and market the things with which to fire-lap. One was honest enough to tell me that Ruger's stainless is a real pain in the a-- to lap, real hard metal.

Not being quite sure what to do, and lacking confidence in my ability to get either kind of lapping done right, I decided maybe I'd try what some of you have suggested. Just shoot he-- out of it and see if it'd fix itself.

After a little more shooting and playing with different alloys I finally got the thing to quit leading. I also noted that when I started using LAR45's 50/50 lube I had no leading.

I'd suggest before you do anything else you try shooting it more with bullets sized correctly, using a Lyman #2 alloy and LAR45's 50/50 lube. If these things don't cure the problems you can always lap later.

[44man]

Yes, the Ruger stainless barrels are hard. My 10" SBH had a slight restriction at the threads so I fire lapped it but used very few boolits. Accuracy improved and since I was going to shoot mostly jacketed for silhouette, I figured they would finish the smoothing. Since dropping out of IHMSA I have shot nothing but cast boolits.
Looking in my book, I figure the gun now has 57,200 rounds through it. Roughly 200 or so with light plinking loads, the rest were heavy hunting or silhouette loads.
I recently put 4 out of 5 shots in 1-1/4" at 100 yd's. with a cast boolit.
If you are worried about wearing out the Ruger barrel, I figure it will last you and your children a lifetime each.
Make sure instructions are followed. Flare the case but do not size or crimp it. Seat the boolits by hand and push them into the case until they stop against the inside taper. You do not want the boolit to upset in the throats and make them larger. A very thin coat of LA over the grit can help in a revolver but will also require more shots.
You only need 1-1/2 to 2 gr's of Bullseye. Just watch for each boolit to exit the barrel, you can see them. If one sticks, push it out and increase the powder a tiny amount.

[Hardcast]

<snip> A very thin coat of LA over the grit can help in a revolver but will also require more shots.<snip>

What is "LA"? Also, years ago I bought Veral's bore lapping grease but have never used it. I have been hesitant to fire lap because I fear the grit will cut the throats. If the throats are undersize, then no problem, but if they are perfect, then I don't want them touched by lapping grit. One more point: Although I do not yet have any barrels that have been Taylor Throated, I understand that it will eliminate any constriction as well as generally improve accuracy.

[Bass Ackward]

What is "LA"? Also, years ago I bought Veral's bore lapping grease but have never used it. I have been hesitant to fire lap because I fear the grit will cut the throats. If the throats are undersize, then no problem, but if they are perfect, then I don't want them touched by lapping grit. One more point: Although I do not yet have any barrels that have been Taylor Throated, I understand that it will eliminate any constriction as well as generally improve accuracy.


Hardcast,

LA is Lee Liquid Alox. You can use this on your bullets after you have rolled them and impregnated them with grit. This will minimize cutting of the throats only where and when force is applied to the slug. Remember .... the barrel sees 6 times the action of the throats.

Taylor throating is and can be a great thing if you have large enough throats for lead. But a Taylor throat is designed to be cut from 1 1/2 to 2 calibers in length and slightly larger than throat diameter. It is designed to allow a bullet to exit the throat before begining the alignment process thus removing stress on the mechanicals and or causing bullet deformation. The problem is that in order to do that, the bullet must not touch the sides until it is clear. This means no seal for a cast bullet. You risk blowing your lube off your bullets and leading in ways you can't even imagine. At the very least, you will lose the option of shorter / lighter bullets.

The only time I can recommend a Taylor throat for lead is if your throats need to be filled to stop leading there and this results in bullets .002 or more over bore diameter. Then you will still seal. SO .... if I had .433 throats with a .429 bore, I might consider Taylor throating as long as it wasn't larger than .432 as an example.

[JudgeBAC]

Ruger Bisley .44 mag 4x Leupold scope. 300 gr. Lee cast. Tried two loads today. Didnt have time to load up a lot just wanted to see if I was in the ballpark. First load was 13.5 gr. 2400, RP case; WW primer. This one was all over the lot. Looked like a shotgun pattern. A good friend of mine says 2400 is a great powder with plain base bullets but he has never had much sucess with 2400 and gas checks or jacketed. The next load is very exciting. 17 gr. N110; RP case; WW primer 5 shots into 1.5 inches at 50 yards (with 4x scope). This is a mild load with no pressure signs at all. I plan on trying 17.5 and 18. I'm not sure where this load will top out. I have similar groups with 300 gr. sierra flat point and 18 gr. of N110.:castmine: