Hardness importance when using gas checks?

[Gunslinger]

I have some RCBS 158gr gc SWC I use for .357 magnum. They are BHN 12. I have only tried moderate loads and never gone full throttle on them. Does BHN matter when using gas checks, and if yes how much? I'm thinking about loading some for my Freedom Arms at about 1500 fps, possibly faster. Is that doable or would another alloy be better?

[Ricochet]

That's doable. Original factory loads for the .44 Magnum used quite soft swaged lead bullets with gas checks.

[44man]

True, they were soft but leaded the bore and were not accurate.
I would harden the .357 boolit, the gas check will not prevent leading or boolit damage.
Start soft and make small batches of boolits, each a little harder, all the way to 25 or 30 BHN. Shoot groups with each, then you will know what the gun prefers. (Check for leading between each group or it will ruin the next.)
I shoot PB over 1630 fps with accuracy so good that my best 5 shot group at 50 yards was 5/16". No softy's allowed.

[Philngruvy]

I shoot PB over 1630 fps with accuracy so good that my best 5 shot group at 50 yards was 5/16". No softy's allowed.

That is pretty impressive that you can shoot a 5 shot group in a smaller space than the diameter of one boolit!

[Trey45]

I don't know what the hardness is of the boolits I cast are. My alloy is 20 to 1 ww to some babbit I bought from Jaime here on the board. I'm using 24gr H110, wolf mag primer and a GC 429215. Shooting it through a Marlin 1894 and a SBH Bisley Hunter with no leading at all. It's an accurate load in both guns which is a plus, I can load one set of data and feed 2 guns, instead of finding 2 different loads for 2 different guns. It's not often, at least for me that I find one load that works well in every gun I have in that caliber. Maybe it helps that I only have 2 44's?

[cbrick]

That is pretty impressive that you can shoot a 5 shot group in a smaller space than the diameter of one boolit!

Possibly 44man was refering to center to center and not outside edge to outside.

Gunslinger, yes, the BHN can and does affect both groups and ES, SD but even more important is bullet fit in the firearm in question. Alloy and it's BHN get blamed for leading and poor accuracy far too often when the real culprit is bullet fit.

I did a year and a half long test shooting 5 shot revolver groups scoped from the bench at 150 meters. My FA 357 shot it's best groups at 18 BHN, both softer or harder opened up groups. If your in the group of people like me where curious minds just gotta know you should experiment with heat treating but remember these two things, bullet fit rules and too hard "can" be as bad for leading and/or accuracy as too soft.

Perhaps you can pick up a few tips from this article:

Heat Treating Lead Antimony Alloy (http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm)

Rick

[Ricochet]

True, they were soft but leaded the bore and were not accurate. I was well pleased with them, and stocked up as big a hoard of the W-W ones as I could when they quit making them in the late '70s. I still have a few, but I cast my own now. I haven't found a .44 Magnum load I like better than those 240 grain LSWCGC bullets over the recommended 25 grains of 296. Leading was minimal. I still mostly load soft alloys in mine, with or without a GC, and if I stick with Ball powders like WC820 or 296 they don't lead too badly. Winchester's paraffin wax worked better than the minimal lube used by Speer or Hornady (those things lead terribly at much over .44 Special velocities), but most any of the lubes we use are better. Using 2400 or Blue Dot increases the leading exponentially over the Ball powders, as they burn much hotter.

[Philngruvy]

Possibly 44man was refering to center to center and not outside edge to outside.


Rick

I do assume he was referring to c/c. I still think that is very impressive!

[Gunslinger]

Possibly 44man was refering to center to center and not outside edge to outside.

Gunslinger, yes, the BHN can and does affect both groups and ES, SD but even more important is bullet fit in the firearm in question. Alloy and it's BHN get blamed for leading and poor accuracy far too often when the real culprit is bullet fit.

I did a year and a half long test shooting 5 shot revolver groups scoped from the bench at 150 meters. My FA 357 shot it's best groups at 18 BHN, both softer or harder opened up groups. If your in the group of people like me where curious minds just gotta know you should experiment with heat treating but remember these two things, bullet fit rules and too hard "can" be as bad for leading and/or accuracy as too soft.

Perhaps you can pick up a few tips from this article:

Heat Treating Lead Antimony Alloy (http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm)

Rick

So you wrote that article? I've read it more than once. When you wrote that you had the best experience with BHN 18 I thought to myself "Hey, that was what the other guy said" :smile:

I quess I'll just have to do some experimentation... although it will be limited because the boolits are from a batch that I'm not likely to use again. And I only have 2lbs of 2400 which was what I planned on using. I can't find anymore 2400, and it's not imported into the country anymore.

[runfiverun]

just start at bout 12-13 grs 2400 and move on up.

[44man]

Here is the group. I was sighting my 45-70 BFR for deer using my WFN, PB 378 gr boolit. Velocity is around 1640 fps, distance 50 yards. First group was 5/8" and the second after moving the red dot was 5/16"
Someone asked how the run out is on my loads and I said it was BAAD! :bigsmyl2:

[Shiloh]

I just cast up a pile of Lyman 314299's

This is with 50/50 wheel weights/range lead water dropped. They seem plenty hard. I can just a vague mark with my fingernail. I don't think I'll be able to in a couple of days. These'll be gas checked and run at less than 1800 fps.

Shiloh

[stubshaft]

I do assume he was referring to c/c. I still think that is very impressive!

It's supposed to measure .772" edge to edge?

[Gohon]

158 grain SWC gas checked straight wheel weights with 2% tin sized to .358, BHN 12 and driven at 1975 fps. No leading and good accuracy. 160 grain FNFP bevel base from same mix of 12 BHN, driven at 1740 fps as dropped from the mould at .360 diameter. No leading and good accuracy. Both shot from Marlin 1894C and lubed with LLA. I was oven heat treating these to 17 BHN but discovered as long as there was a proper fit, hardness was not that much of a factor. I also disagree that gas checks do not help prevent leading when moving up to higher speeds. Shot from a revolver it may be a different ball game but from a rifle I'm having no problem with 12-13 BHN.


It's supposed to measure .772" edge to edge?

I always measure center to center for groups. If measured edge to edge then you subtract bullet diameter for the group size.

[stubshaft]

158 grain SWC gas checked straight wheel weights with 2% tin sized to .358, BHN 12 and driven at 1975 fps. No leading and good accuracy. 160 grain FNFP bevel base from same mix of 12 BHN, driven at 1740 fps as dropped from the mould at .360 diameter. No leading and good accuracy. Both shot from Marlin 1894C and lubed with LLA. I was oven heat treating these to 17 BHN but discovered as long as there was a proper fit, hardness was not that much of a factor. I also disagree that gas checks do not help prevent leading when moving up to higher speeds. Shot from a revolver it may be a different ball game but from a rifle I'm having no problem with 12-13 BHN.



I always measure center to center for groups. If measured edge to edge then you subtract bullet diameter for the group size.


Right - SO, if you measure edge to edge and it measures .772" and you subtract .460" the sum is 5/16"

[243winxb]

Does BHN matter when using gas checks, and if yes how much? Yes, i remember some factory Remington 158gr GS's that left a lot of nasty stuff in the barrel, but shot ok. Depends on how much cleaning you want to do. Make your bullets for a gas check the same as you would for a plain base is a good rule. The extra protection from the GS sure wll not hurt at all. BHN of 15 is good for all. Air cooled. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_Alloy_20090610_1.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_1.jpg) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_Alloy_20090610_2.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_2.jpg)

[Harry O]

Here is my experience, for what it is worth.

I started using GC bullets with a 358156 mould. Originally I cast it with 40:1 lead:tin, with a Bhn of 6-7. I loaded in .357 Magnum cases with 13.5gr of 2400. This should have a pressure of about 30,000psi -- not full throttle, but near enough for me. I assumed I would get great expansion and little or no leading with this combination.

Leading was there, but it was not too bad. However, accuracy was terrible. I decided to mix up some harder mixes and try them. I mixed up some Bhn 12 and Bhn 18. Otherwise, the loads and the gun were the same. The softer one (12) was easy to cast with, was more accurate than the really soft lead (6-7) , and there was very little leading (just a few small flakes on the cleaning patch from the start of the barrel).

Bhn 18 was harder to cast with, was even more accurate, and left virtually no leading. I later went back and tried a mix that was Bhn 15. That was easier than the 18 to cast with, was just as accurate, and there was no more leading. Since then, I have been using Bhn 15 with these loads. The accuracy is virtually the same as jacketed, at least up to 25 yards.

I have several .30 caliber rifle cartridges with GC bullets. I have never tried them at the 50,000psi level. Most of my cast loads are in the 30,000psi range and they work well with Bhn 15. If I ever went to full pressure, I would probably have to increase the Bhn again. I don't really bother. If I want full pressure 30-06 loads, I use jacketed. Life is too short to chase that unicorn.

[felix]

Leading by our definition is shearing. There are alloys that measure soft and yet do not shear. It is nothing but magic from our perspective because we cannot duplicate that characteristic from pot to pot with our junk lead. That is the fun of the sport, to come up with a particular lot of boolits that shoot like a house-a-fire. No crazy bubble distribution, plenty of toughness when sized (springback), heavy weight for the boolit, fit the sizing die to a Tee, with the gas checks set perfectly. Pure magic. ... felix

[44man]

158 grain SWC gas checked straight wheel weights with 2% tin sized to .358, BHN 12 and driven at 1975 fps. No leading and good accuracy. 160 grain FNFP bevel base from same mix of 12 BHN, driven at 1740 fps as dropped from the mould at .360 diameter. No leading and good accuracy. Both shot from Marlin 1894C and lubed with LLA. I was oven heat treating these to 17 BHN but discovered as long as there was a proper fit, hardness was not that much of a factor. I also disagree that gas checks do not help prevent leading when moving up to higher speeds. Shot from a revolver it may be a different ball game but from a rifle I'm having no problem with 12-13 BHN.



I always measure center to center for groups. If measured edge to edge then you subtract bullet diameter for the group size.
Very true with a rifle. You have no jump to the forcing cone and rifling or a fast boolit when it reaches the rifling.
I suppose if you have a very long leade in a rifle harder would be better too. The farther from the start of the rifling might need a little more hardness but the forcing cone of the revolver and the gap that soft lead will try to get out of makes it harder to work with.
Many different combination's in any gun can be forced to work but if you find one, just a little change will blow it away.
I find that what works in my, say a Ruger, will work in every Ruger. I also get many, many different boolits to work with little fuss and they will also work in every other Ruger. If a boolit will not work in mine, it will not work in others either.
That is what works, not a combination that will drive a guy nuts and that he will keep fooling with for years with no results.
If I know my gun is right and I get bad groups or leading with something I try, that stuff goes away right now. I refuse to fool with it looking for something magic to happen. I will dump a load in 10 rounds.
Like I have said many times, a guy will buy a mold, cast 10,000 boolits, load 500 rounds as fast as he can pound them out only to find something is wrong. I load 10, shoot them and go from there. A change and 10 more rounds, etc.
Then a fellow will find some store bought cast on sale and buy 20 boxes, then try to make them shoot. :groner:

[JohnH]

158 grain SWC gas checked straight wheel weights with 2% tin sized to .358, BHN 12 and driven at 1975 fps. No leading and good accuracy. 160 grain FNFP bevel base from same mix of 12 BHN, driven at 1740 fps as dropped from the mould at .360 diameter. No leading and good accuracy. Both shot from Marlin 1894C and lubed with LLA. I was oven heat treating these to 17 BHN but discovered as long as there was a proper fit, hardness was not that much of a factor. I also disagree that gas checks do not help prevent leading when moving up to higher speeds. Shot from a revolver it may be a different ball game but from a rifle I'm having no problem with 12-13 BHN.

My experience exactly. I have no trouble driving straight WW gas checked all the way to 2200 fps in a 25-06 using the RCBS 257120. I drive the same metal to 1900 fps ina 30-30 using the Lee 312185. I drive the Lyman 311008 at 1400 fps in a 30-30, that is a plainbase design, with both exellent accuracy and no leading issues and the same is true of the RCBS 30150CW. I am shooting the Saeco 357180 plain base in a variety of 357 Magnum revolvers at 1100 fps without leading issues as well using straight WW. I use Felix lube exclusively.

[Frank]

44man says
Then a fellow will find some store bought cast on sale and buy 20 boxes, then try to make them shoot. :groner:
And when it doesn't, he'll post a thread and everybody will suggest something different.

[Gunslinger]

So it seems like a little higher BHN works better - in some guns at least. I seem to recall having water dropped some boolits that were 50/50 range lead/WWs and they came out around BHN 17-18. I'll have to try that the next time I cast.

[cbrick]

Leading by our definition is shearing. There are alloys that measure soft and yet do not shear. It is nothing but magic from our perspective because we cannot duplicate that characteristic from pot to pot with our junk lead. That is the fun of the sport, to come up with a particular lot of boolits that shoot like a house-a-fire. No crazy bubble distribution, plenty of toughness when sized (springback), heavy weight for the boolit, fit the sizing die to a Tee, with the gas checks set perfectly. Pure magic. ... felix

Well . . . Not magic but your 100% correct that consistency of alloy is critical if your goal is to duplicate loads from lot to lot. Less important with low pressure, low velocity short range loads but as pressure, velocity and range increases with the need for repeatable accuracy so does the need for consistency in the alloy. Have I mentioned lately the pure joy of Magma's 40 pound pot? Forty pounds all exactly the same.

My smelting pot holds about 85-90 pounds and once I have all WW's carefully segregated and sorted out and cast into well fluxed 5 pound ingots the fun begins. Starting with about 40 pounds in the smelting pot I add back the 5 pound ingots until full and cast 5 pound ingots again until there is about 40 pounds left. I keep going through the 5 pounders until all of them have been run through at least three times. I currently have about 700 pounds of clip-on WW "blended" in this way. I do the same with the stick-on weights. I would love to have a pot that could safely hold 500-700 pounds at a time and "blend" all of it together at the same time. Oh well, maybe someday.

When I add 10 or 15 pounds of five pound ingots to the casting pot I am reasonably sure that I am not changing the alloy by much if at all. That's not magic felix, that's consistency of alloy from batch to batch.

Rick

[cbrick]

So it seems like a little higher BHN works better - in some guns at least.

It could, it might and it’s possible. All depends on the load, the firearm, the alloy and THE BULLET FIT in the firearm in question.

To repeat . . . Too hard can be as bad or worse than too soft and bullet fit is king, bullet fit is the supreme ruler. Don't automatically blame the alloy for something it didn't do. You need to experiment with your load in your firearm and see what's best for your circumstances. It will come down to what accuracy and results YOU are willing to accept as good enough for YOU.

Water quenching from the mould is a viable method of heat treating WW alloy and should get you around 17-18 BHN. It's not as consistent as convection oven heat treating but it does work well. It again depends on the lengths you are willing to go and results you are willing to accept.

Rick

[felix]

Rick, you are taking the fun out of it!!! Too much work!!! You want 2000 pounds of consistent alloy? Come and visit Corky and me, and we will encourage you to make it up. We will supply the beer, food, bed while WE watch you play with the lead. Well, we might get bored watching you, and MIGHT lend a hand. Too funny to even think about it. ... felix

[44man]

Rick, you are taking the fun out of it!!! Too much work!!! You want 2000 pounds of consistent alloy? Come and visit Corky and me, and we will encourage you to make it up. We will supply the beer, food, bed while WE watch you play with the lead. Well, we might get bored watching you, and MIGHT lend a hand. Too funny to even think about it. ... felix
Can I join that party? :drinks:

[cbrick]

hhmmm . . . Taking the fun out of it? Nah, when I add alloy to my casting pot to cast for the next match I know that I am casting the same alloy that I tested the load with and used at the last match, and the one before that and the one. . . . . Well, you get the idea.

Now that's fun!

Besides, it took less than one day for me to do the 700 pounds and it's done for as long as it takes me to use it up, until then I use the same alloy (or at least very, very similar) every time I cast.

Now to take some more fun out of it. When I add ingots to my casting pot I weigh them on a digital postal scale and then weigh out 99.9% tin at exactly 2% so the tin percentage doesn't vary either. :cool:

Just to assure that there is no fun left you could probably get through a couple of six packs watching me size gas checks for a perfectly flat/flush fit tight against the boolit base. :drinks:

Rick

[Bret4207]

Leading by our definition is shearing. There are alloys that measure soft and yet do not shear. It is nothing but magic from our perspective because we cannot duplicate that characteristic from pot to pot with our junk lead. That is the fun of the sport, to come up with a particular lot of boolits that shoot like a house-a-fire. No crazy bubble distribution, plenty of toughness when sized (springback), heavy weight for the boolit, fit the sizing die to a Tee, with the gas checks set perfectly. Pure magic. ... felix

The magic gets a lot easier with large lots of one alloy, whatever that alloy is. I see SO many guys that try a few shots with such and such an alloy and then immediately assume they need a HARDCAST alloy. I'm not much at all for cussing on the internet but BULLFEATHERS! What they need to do is take the alloy they have and make it work with their guns. Figure out the fit first and try some different loads, seating depths, etc before jumping onto the "harder is better" bandwagon. Harder isn't "better", it's just different. And since we can have 3 different alloys all measuring 15 Bhn and all 3 made up of differing amounts of Pb/Sn/Sb and all with differing characteristics then Bhn alone tells us NOTHING!

I see people lately are falling back into the HARDCAST mindset we've worked so hard to get away from. It's a lot more complex than just "harder is better".

[Bret4207]

So it seems like a little higher BHN works better - in some guns at least. I seem to recall having water dropped some boolits that were 50/50 range lead/WWs and they came out around BHN 17-18. I'll have to try that the next time I cast.

As Rick said, it ain't that simple. For every guy here telling us about the incredible groups he shoots with 20 Bhn boolits there'll be just as many telling of the incredible groups they shot with 12 Bhn boolits. As a very general rule, one open to anomalies, as the pressure increases a boolit with more shear strength is easier to get good results from. That's as far as I'm willing to go with it so far.

[Bass Ackward]

Still fun to watch people take sides on this issue. And all the others. And as usual, all over the map ta boot.

Wonder if this dilemma will ever be solved. Should concentrate on that right after I find the absolute best lube. Or best bullet designs. Or well, ......... back to obscurity.

No rules.

[Gunslinger]

My smelting pot holds about 85-90 pounds and once I have all WW's carefully segregated and sorted out and cast into well fluxed 5 pound ingots the fun begins. Starting with about 40 pounds in the smelting pot I add back the 5 pound ingots until full and cast 5 pound ingots again until there is about 40 pounds left. I keep going through the 5 pounders until all of them have been run through at least three times. I currently have about 700 pounds of clip-on WW "blended" in this way. I do the same with the stick-on weights. I would love to have a pot that could safely hold 500-700 pounds at a time and "blend" all of it together at the same time. Oh well, maybe someday.

When I add 10 or 15 pounds of five pound ingots to the casting pot I am reasonably sure that I am not changing the alloy by much if at all. That's not magic felix, that's consistency of alloy from batch to batch.

Rick

I do the same actually, although I don't think mine is as consistent as yours... It can't be with all the re-melts you're doing. My smelting pot holds 150lbs and that's about the size of my batches. Of course I mix a few lbs in my casting pot and do some casting to see if the alloy works or not. I learned this the hard way. My first batch ever was 100lbs of bhn 10, needless to say it was useless in 9mm... but worked okay in .38 special.

[Harry O]

As a very general rule, one open to anomalies, as the pressure increases a boolit with more shear strength is easier to get good results from. That's as far as I'm willing to go with it so far.

Agreed. This is the rule of thumb I use.

I know that some people on this board get very upset when I (or anyone else who says the same thing) say the above. Just mention the 1,422 rule for plain-base bullets if you want to start a fight.

I am not saying that it is impossible to get lower hardness bullets to shoot at higher velocities, but it takes a lot of work, a lot of experimentation, a gun with perfect internal dimensions, and a lot of luck. It is a LOT easier to do it by making the mix harder with increasing pressure. I am in casting to shoot, not to make it hard for myself.

[44man]

As Rick said, it ain't that simple. For every guy here telling us about the incredible groups he shoots with 20 Bhn boolits there'll be just as many telling of the incredible groups they shot with 12 Bhn boolits. As a very general rule, one open to anomalies, as the pressure increases a boolit with more shear strength is easier to get good results from. That's as far as I'm willing to go with it so far.
Oh so very true. It is something I will never figure out. I don't consider BHN to be the holy word and have said so many times. Two boolits of the same BHN but a difference in the alloy can shoot super or fail.
Mine are what I consider hard at 22 to 28 BHN on the average for my revolvers but a lot of different alloys read the same and just will not give the same groups. Yet the alloy that does not work at my level of loads will work for someone else with the difference in their loads.
You just can't stick with what does not work and may be the reason so many store bought boolits are failures even if they fit the gun.
An example are Laser Cast, I can't get them to shoot at all. I bought some other boolits from Midsouth long ago and they were junk.
You need to work with what you have but to duplicate a good mix every time can make a guy look for a leftover caveman club.
So many blame the gun or how they are shooting when it can be just the wrong alloy for their loads.
You can take a hardness test on one boolit with a thin, hard skin but a soft interior, but it doesn't shoot good, then get the same reading from another that is tougher and can resist shear and shoots great.
We have advanced revolver shooting to the point that the alloy has to be worked just like the powder.
Even the guy that has great luck with a 12 BHN boolit might have an alloy that will resist shear and upset.
I really do hate the BHN stuff along with the Greenhill formula, Taylor knock down and muzzle energy. Neither will tell you anything! [smilie=b:

[cbrick]

This thread is getting into the area that can be difficult to respond to in reasonably short posts. I'll start with I have a lot of respect for 44man with his years of working with cast and success making them work in revolvers. Revolvers are a different breed completely from closed action rifles or handguns. I agree with almost everything he posts regarding cast, almost but not everything.

Knowing the BHN is not useless and can and does tell you a lot. Are there different ways to achieve the same BHN? Sure, various alloy's could all have the same BHN reading and all of them have different shear strengths, after all, they are different alloy’s. If one alloy works well with a given load in a given firearm and BHN of say 18 and another 18 BHN alloy does not work with the same load and firearm it is very possible that the alloy that does not work at 18 very well might at 20 or 22 or even 15. If you ignore the BHN of an alloy it could be very difficult to ever get “your” alloy to work at all, repeating any successful load could be impossible. Probably (as Bret said) why so many casters simply assume they need a “Hardcast” alloy. “Hardcast” . . . now there is a word that I really hate! That one word has ruined the success of a lot of new and would be casters. Knowing the BHN of, and how it got that way and what works in your loads in your firearms is a key reason (ok felix, time to giggle) for as large a lot of a single alloy as it’s possible for a boolit caster to acquire (or mix). If you start each casting session with a new and different alloy and cannot or will not use BHN as a guide you’ll never really know why this load worked great last month and today my gun is leading up and I can’t even hit the target. Keeping complete and accurate notes on your cast boolits and alloys is every bit as important as keeping accurate loading notes.

To repeat my previous post, low pressure, low velocity short range and plinking ammo requires far less consistency in alloy than does high pressure, high velocity and long range “repeatable” match accuracy.

A thin skin cast boolit? According to every metals industry paper that I have read lead does not react like steel, lead whether air cooled or oven heat treated is the same hardness all the way through, not hard on the outside and soft on the inside.

Like 44man when I work up any new load I load only 10 rounds, I may cast 100 or more of that boolit but I load only 10. I’ll have a pretty good idea if I’m on the right track with that load combination in 10 shots on the target and over the chrono. When a load does not work be it from accuracy or leading or whatever chances are it will be abandoned but . . . I assembled that load from several decades of handloading and casting experience and a large notebook full of notes, obviously I assumed it would work or I wouldn’t have loaded it. I may tinker with it a bit more, not to look for the “magic” as felix says and make it work but rather to learn why it didn’t work. Most of my shooting is testing and experimenting and most of my testing and experimenting has but one purpose . . . The education of Rick, curious minds just gotta know. The rest of my shooting is putting that education to work shooting a match.

Greenhill formula? I have never looked at it as the end all and last word but rather as a guide, an approximation. As such it will get you into the ball park of where you need to be for a given application. Muzzle energy? Now this can be useful when coupled with the weight of the firearm, it will give you a pretty good idea of what the guy holding the gun is in for. :mrgreen:

Rick

[Bret4207]

Lotta truth in Bass's post. all the last 3 too. I have a couple of EXTREMELY cast friendly guns that eat anything reasonable with aplomb (I always wanted to use that word!) and a many more that need a certain this, that and the other thing and it varies from day to day at that. I think a lot of us forget each gun is an individual case and changes from season to season and as we shoot it. Bass is the one that brought this to my attention a couple years back and it made a big difference in how I view things. The big thing I finally figured out is that there is no "magic boolit" in this game!

[1Shirt]

My rule of thumb is that all rifles and most handguns are female. Accordingly they all need to be treated differently, with care, and proper feeding. When they are, they shoot well. When they are not they are all over the place on the target. Most of mine like oversized blts, Lars Red lube, and someplace between 1600-2000 in rifles, and 1000-1200 in hand guns. Most of my alloys are around 18 BH, and I water drop everything because it is most convenient for me. For me, the Kiss principal works.
1Shirt!:coffeecom