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blazin.45acp
10-22-2009, 07:21 PM
Hello,

I am new here and to reloading.

I loaded a few rounds yesterday. Although neither of my manuals describes to a "t" the load data for a 185 JHP, assumption was to use the data from the 185 jacketed and I would be fine. (Yes, I know the ass/u/me meaning.)

The gun is custom with three top-port compensator. I understand the report is/or will be louder with higher pressures but the recoil was not as reduced I thought it would be. In fact, it was a bit snappier than with factory 230 FMJ.

As far as the loads, I used Nosler 185 JHP with 6.9 grains of Universal behind it. I am using a Lee press with Lee dies; powder thru, bullet seating and factory crimp. My OAL is 1.205. (By the way, 6.8 grains of Universal is the minimum according to Lee manual.)

Why would the recoil be more outstanding/prominant with a lower weight bullet, filled with the minimum powder level?

What would it be like at the maximum powder filled amount? (Should I even try it?)

Thanks in advance for any/all help given.

Blazin.45acp

DLCTEX
10-22-2009, 07:39 PM
Would be helpful to know the caliber. What case? Primer? Sharper recoil could be due to a bullet seated too deep, but more info needed. Brand of gun? I could probably guess, but won't.

blazin.45acp
10-22-2009, 07:53 PM
I guess I was a little too anxious to post.

1911 45acp WLP mixed cases

Lee manual stipulates the minimum OAL @ 1.195

I should note that the primers (fired) do look as they formed to the firing hole with some scrape marks as well.

Thanks

Blazin.45acp

docone31
10-22-2009, 07:59 PM
I am guessing it is a .45ACP. I use 185gn Flat Nose and Blue dot.
It sounds like the load is a little loose for the powder. It has too much space in the case. My 185gn set a touch deeper in the case.
First, what do the primers look like after firing?
I might bump the load up a tad. Fill the case more. Not exceep maximum, just a little.
I also found it a perkier load. Hit POI though.

blazin.45acp
10-23-2009, 06:42 AM
How much is a touch deeper? And, You're saying that I should bump up the powder level closer to the maximum?

It was a little perkier than factory 45 ACP with 230 FMJ but it shot great. NOT once but twice I fired 3-hot strings and measure 1/2 and 7/16 center to center, at 25 yards steadied on acut railroad tie.

I shouldn't worry about the primers (above post), this is normal? They are not pushed out of the primer pocket at all, just where the firing pin struck it is where it looks a little strange.

I was hoping to have all the bugs worked out before the white stuff starts to fly so that I reload as a hobby during the winter time. I guess I am a little behind.

Thanks for any/all replies.

Blazin.45acp

KCSO
10-23-2009, 11:36 AM
Don't try for any kind of a max load with mixed cases in 45 ACP/ They vary wildly as to dimmension, for example Remington cases are so much thinner than W/W that yo need a different expander. In a 1911 if you are gettng expansion into the primer pocket you are about as far as you can go, I want my primers just nicely flattened.

Now for the kicker, I have shot hundredsof factory and handloaded JHP's into various media and I have yet to see a JHP other than the hydrashock and the solid expanding point that won't fill and fail to expand under some conditionns. That is why for personal use ii still stick with a 200 grain semi wad cutter for hunting. I have shot 45 ACP for over 40 years and still have to find a load that will beat a 200 Semi wad cutter pushed by 7.0 of Unique (say 1000 fps) Mine are cast from w/w with a little tin and have killed hogs, deer, and a bunch of cattle.

frank_1947
10-24-2009, 10:35 AM
Is your Compensator a true compensator that screws onto the barrel as my picture shows of my 1911 with comp or is it several holes on top of slide and holes in barrel that match, if so that is more a ported gun then a comp gun.

Ported or comp will reduce muzzle flip the more gases the better the comp works, you can shoot light loads with a comp gun but there are so many things you have to do to make comp work.

if your gun is ported then you wont realize the same amount of reduction as a compensator example I have several comp guns for competition one gun is for steel plates and light loads the other is for way above any book data both are 9mm niether gun will move at all when fired No muzzle flip, I had a 45acp with a comp it will cut it down but not a whole bunch as a 9mm or 38super will

We shoot our 9mm at 1450 fps you wont find any data on that and the gun does not move

Dont expect a whole lot from your 45acp, personally I would go max at 1.250 oal see what that does try light bullet then heavy bullet

frank_1947
10-24-2009, 10:41 AM
here are many custom hand built compensated guns
http://www.cmbrass.com/Custom_Pistols.php

405
10-24-2009, 11:11 AM
Devil's in the details with these type loads/guns! I just looked at the Hodgdon data for 185 gr. Hornady Jbullet over Universal. It lists 6.4 gr. as the Do Not Exceed load. There may be a reason for that! They may have pressure tested loads above 6.4 gr. and found erratic or high pressures! Probably not a good idea to extrapolate. Most all published data is done in a particular gun. Guns vary.


In certain cartridges/guns.... extremely small changes in components, load techniques, load specs, gun chamber specs can show big differences in pressures/velocities. Even how the gun is designed and the type of main recoil spring can influence how the whole package works together. I'm unsure exact meaning of "factory crimp"? Type of crimping of 45 ACP (headspaces on mouth) is very critical. Re-read load manual about that operation.

Look at as many load manuals/data sources as you can before jumping off into reloading. First place to start would be to look at the Hodgdon data about Universal in the 45 ACP. If you don't have the book then go to the online Hodgdon site for data.

blazin.45acp
10-24-2009, 11:24 AM
It is, in fact, a compensated 45acp. No porting in the barrel.

I have tried factory 230 fmj from this gun and thought that the recoil wasn't as bad as with the hand loaded 185 JHP Noslers. Essentially, this is my first time reloading and I was concerned with difference in recoil. Even though the primers looked like they formed to the firing pin hole, none of them had moved out of the primer pocket. Being close to min. length, they fed perfect with no hiccups.

I am new here, so if I can manage to attatch a photo of the spent cases I'll do so.


Thanks for the help

Blazin.45acp

frank_1947
10-24-2009, 11:27 AM
what gun is this 1911?

blazin.45acp
10-24-2009, 11:39 AM
Yikes - How in blazes did I miss that? A maximum of 6.4! Back to the drawing board (and I'll re-check what the Lee manual has printed.) I'm glad nothing happened and I only made a few of those bad boys.

It is a 1911 Nowlin barrel and cone-style compensator kit (I don't know if they offer it anymore.)


Thanks - I'll have to research more than one source for now on.

Blazin.45acp

405
10-24-2009, 02:36 PM
Yes, The Lee data shows a range of 6.8-7.2 gr. Universal under a 185 JHP. Obviously, the components/guns tested were different. Always good to check as many pressure tested sources as possible then proceed from the more conservative.

If you are using the Lee pistol "Factory Crimp" die for the ACP just make sure it's working correctly. My experience with that die is not so good. The rifle version of the Lee Factory Crimp die seems to work OK. Trim all 45 ACP cases to correct/same length. For 45 ACP I use a taper crimp die.

here's the Hodgdon's data site link
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

frank_1947
10-24-2009, 02:55 PM
405

you really trim pistol cases, I dont know anyone who does that, i guess if you were to shoot the same case many times you might do that.
I do have my barrel out when i reload and drop loads in and out of chamber.

blazin.45acp
10-24-2009, 04:06 PM
405

What do you mean the factory crimp is not good? I did, in fact, use a factory crimp on these. The bullet seating of the Lee set, is that the taper crimp?

I'm back to square one - not sure which way to turn.

Okay, obviously I have the Lee manual. I also have the latest Lyman manual. Any other suggestions?

"Always good to check as many pressure tested sources as possible then proceed from the more conservative."

What is a pressure tested source?

If I don't find the specific bullet type in a manual, what next? Use data that closest represents that bullet type?

Again, thanks for the help.

Blazin.45acp

KYCaster
10-24-2009, 06:00 PM
A couple of things I'd like to comment on....

Universal is not the best powder to use when experimenting with intrepid loads. It can get a little squirlley at the upper end of its useful pressure range. That's why Hodgden's data is more conservitive than Lee's.

"Pressure tested" data is available from many sources but Lee is not one of them. All of Lee's data is copied from other published sources and you have no way of knowing the original source of the data. Bullet and powder manufacturers are the first place to look and I don't trust any single source without at least one other cross reference.

It is very difficult to get any substantial benefit from a compensator on a 45ACP. The compensator uses redirected cumbustion gases to counteract the muzzle rise and the 45 (with normal loads) just doesn't generate enough gas to be effective. The only ones I've seen that worked were pushing 150 gr. lead bullets to nearly 1200 fps. Consider that the formula for free recoil includes the weight of the powder charge as part of the load that's ejected out the barrel. Compare a 38 Super with 115 gr. bullets and 10 or 12 gr. of powder with your load. The Super's powder charge is 10% of the bullet weight and yours is just over 3%...quite a difference.

And speaking of free recoil...it's measured in foot pounds...basicly a measure of inertia. It doesn't matter how you reach your goal...slow, heavy bullet or fast, light bullet...if the resulting power factors are equal then the recoil is going to be equal. You can change the way it feels, but the lighter, faster load is usually going to have a "sharper" feel regardless of what you hang on the end of the barrel.

I advise you to become more familiar with the basic reloading process before you pursue your experiments with the compensator any further.

Jerry

blazin.45acp
10-24-2009, 07:24 PM
I'll have to say, I was NOT trying to push a load. I was reading this data from Lee. I will, in the future, stay away from using only one manual or source. I don't have a death or dismemberment wish.

What is pressure tested?

I guess I'll have to read a few more books before continuing this process of reloading.

Blazin.45acp

KYCaster
10-24-2009, 07:45 PM
What is pressure tested?

I guess I'll have to read a few more books before continuing this process of reloading.

Blazin.45acp


Check out this site, it will answer a lot of your questions.

http://www.saami.org/Technical.cfm


Jerry

405
10-24-2009, 09:44 PM
405

you really trim pistol cases, I dont know anyone who does that, i guess if you were to shoot the same case many times you might do that.
I do have my barrel out when i reload and drop loads in and out of chamber.

Short answer- To each his own but- I absolutely check length on carts that headspace on mouth and trim if necessary! I load mostly lighter loads in 45 ACP and start with consistent length brass. Doesn't require trimming very often. If I start with used brass of unknown past I check length and trim before proceeding. The Lee case length gauge/trimmer is easy and really slick for checking length and trimming, particulary the thin-walled stuff like the 45 ACP.

Dropping a loaded round down the chamber while the barrel is out won't say much except that the sizer knocked the diameter down enough to chamber. No reference for gauging headspace.

Cherokee
10-24-2009, 10:54 PM
405 - Yes, to each his own on case trimming. This is my 2 cents on the matter. A long time ago I learned that seating the bullet to contact the lands of the barrel (within allowable OAL range) gave consistent headspacing even if the case length varied. OTOH, that also means the degree of taper crimp may vary but I do not consider that significant when properly done. Frankly, I rely on case neck tension to retain the bullet since the taper crimp is really just to remove the flairing that was put on the case to facilitate seating of the bullet.

Blazin....Don't try to get to a load too fast. You got to work up the loads for your gun - and you have a special 1911 that may require special tweaking. I don't have comp guns so no help from me. You will find pressure tested loads in the manuals - they will show you pressure readings.

Frank.....some nice custom 1911's there !!

405
10-24-2009, 11:11 PM
405

What do you mean the factory crimp is not good? I did, in fact, use a factory crimp on these. The bullet seating of the Lee set, is that the taper crimp?

I'm back to square one - not sure which way to turn.

Okay, obviously I have the Lee manual. I also have the latest Lyman manual. Any other suggestions?

"Always good to check as many pressure tested sources as possible then proceed from the more conservative."

What is a pressure tested source?

If I don't find the specific bullet type in a manual, what next? Use data that closest represents that bullet type?

Again, thanks for the help.

Blazin.45acp
Any published data source that lists velocities/pressures such as the major bullet company manuals, powder company manuals, component company manuals or reloading data manuals like Lee and Lyman use pressure tested data. Anonymous sources on the internet usually don't represent pressure tested data. :)

About the Lee crimp die that comes in the Lee 45 ACP set??? I have one.... just doesn't work for me. Very touchy about diameters and the angle of crimp seems too sharp. That is my opinion. I use the Lyman 45 ACP/LC Taper crimp die with absolutely no issues when loading either .451 Jbullet loads or .452 cast bullet loads in the ACP.

About a specific bullet type not listed with the exact case type, primer type, powder lot #, etc. all combined in a single load?? good question and one that faces all reloaders at one time or another. There is implied skill level, knowledge, reasonable safety and care in the use of any reloading data. The data seen in manuals will usually list the exact components and even the gun used. Because of the variables involved- published load data complies with SAAMI standards. There is a margin of safety built into the system to allow for the variables like gun strength, powder to powder lot differences, loader to loader differences, chamber to chamber differences, etc. Published load data is accompanied by the almost universal verbage such as, "Start at suggested starting loads" or "Do not exceed", etc.

Cartridges such as the 45 ACP fired in semi-auto pistols are in a category of reloading that is less forgiving of slight variations in load technique, load specifics and other small variables. Therefore the conservative, cautious approach to details like- type of crimp, case length, OAL and comparable pressure data.

Common sense is a very large part of successful reloading. Paying attention to details is the key. I don't think you'll have any problem loading the 185 Nosler Jbullet in your 45. Such things as case length, proper crimp, and OAL are as important as powder charge and bullet weight. The Hodgdon data, while not exact, is the closest I see to your combination and should be OK if all other load techniques/ specs are good and the suggested starting load is followed. There is a limit to the numbers of combinations that any one company can test. The sheer number of possible loads would be nearly impossible to test!!

405
10-24-2009, 11:27 PM
405 - Yes, to each his own on case trimming. This is my 2 cents on the matter. A long time ago I learned that seating the bullet to contact the lands of the barrel (within allowable OAL range) gave consistent headspacing even if the case length varied. OTOH, that also means the degree of taper crimp may vary but I do not consider that significant when properly done. Frankly, I rely on case neck tension to retain the bullet since the taper crimp is really just to remove the flairing that was put on the case to facilitate seating of the bullet.

Blazin....Don't try to get to a load too fast. You got to work up the loads for your gun - and you have a special 1911 that may require special tweaking. I don't have comp guns so no help from me. You will find pressure tested loads in the manuals - they will show you pressure readings.

Frank.....some nice custom 1911's there !!

Besides basic over-charge, aren't bullet jam headspacing and improper crimp the other leading causes of KABOOMS in rimless semi-autos.... particularly the 40 S&W?

Cherokee
10-25-2009, 05:30 PM
405

45ACP and 40 S&W are two different classes, one low pressure and one high pressure. I was addressing the 45 ACP and what has worked for me for 40 years in many different 1911's.

KYCaster
10-25-2009, 08:23 PM
Besides basic over-charge, aren't bullet jam headspacing and improper crimp the other leading causes of KABOOMS in rimless semi-autos.... particularly the 40 S&W?



Both the conditions you mention can lead to an out of battery condition which has become the leading suspect in Glock failures. Other than that I don't think either will increase pressures to the point of causing catastrophic failures. (assuming safe and sane loads to begin with)

The pressure required to start the bullet (or boolit) into the rifleing or to expand the brass to release the bullet is minor compared to the peak pressure of the cartridge.

Jerry