straight tin boolits?

[O.S.O.K.]

Anybody cast with pure tin? How does it cast and how does it compare to lead in terms of weight? Diameter from the mold? How about maleability - do they deform or shatter when the hit something like a leg bone?

I'm thinking in terms of hunting boolits, so not large volume...

[sqlbullet]

I have not.

I did trade with a guy a while back who had a bunch of pure tin and 63/37 solder. He took 250lbs of my isotope lead, and I got 25 lbs of pure tin (or 95% tin, 5% silver) and 75 lbs of the 63/37 solder.

He was very unhappy with the tin bullets. Felt they were too hard/brittle.

edit: I was very happy he was unhappy with the bullets. I have plenty of tin now!

[JSnover]

I've done it. They look great! But they weigh about a third less than lead. Hard to tell about the diameter, since the mold was junk I never knew what it was supposed to cast to and didn't much care. I wouldn't expect much deformation and I'm not sure if they'd penetrate well eithier. What mold are you casting with?

[Hafast]

I took the tin ingots I got from Rotometals and cast them in my Lee 6 banger 158 grain swc mold. This allows me a fairly precise blending of alloys. The as cast tin bullets were light and very hard. I was disappointed in the fill-out, but I wasn't really working hard in controlling mold temp.

[Oldtimer]

Might work, I guess, if it was free, but dont think my billfold would like it much. Bob

[JSnover]

I took the tin ingots I got from Rotometals and cast them in my Lee 6 banger 158 grain swc mold. This allows me a fairly precise blending of alloys. The as cast tin bullets were light and very hard. I was disappointed in the fill-out, but I wasn't really working hard in controlling mold temp.

Mine were cast for the same purpose; "pot sweeteners." They weight just a hair over half an ounce. Can't remember the temp setting but I do know they were not pure tin. They were 80 % tin babbit.

[Shiloh]

It'd be kind of spendy. Rotometals Inc. at the top of the page has ingot tin at $10 a pound.
There are few sources for scrap tin other than pewter at garage sales.

Shiloh

[O.S.O.K.]

I don't have a specific mold in mind - just thinking that these would be a possibility in the lead-free areas. They'd have to be approved I guess.

So they weigh 1/3 less than lead... so a 44 cal 310 grian Lee boolit mold would cast a tin boolit weighing about 207 grains.... and would cost $.31 for the tin...

I wonder how fast you could push them without them fouling the bore...

Probably not feasible...

[XWrench3]

my opinion is that the cost it isnt as important as the actual results from the boolit when it hits game. if it results in a good, quick, clean kill, that is far more important than if the boolit costs $.12 to make, or $1.55 to make. for true hunting purposes, you will only shoot a few every year. it will cost way more for the hunt, than the price of any boolit, unless it is made from solid gold. then, it might be close. lol. seriously, the performance of the boolit is the primary concern, i was talking with another member about a similar thing yesterday. his method is to use the same load as he target practices with for hunting, EXCEPT he changes out the wheel weight boolis, for pure soft lead boolits. makes a lot of sense to me. who cares if you have to clean a little lead from the barrel when you are done. i will gladly pay that price of admission to get a great deer or elk.

[sqlbullet]

It is interesting to note that a pure tin bullet would be about the same overall relation to a copper solid as copper is to lead.

[BPCR Bill]

Generally speaking, the harder the cast boolit, the smaller the diameter. I wouldn't shoot an all tin boolit for a game or target application. I'm not sure what rifle you are going to be using and you haven't said what game you will be hunting. I know the big bores (45-70 and up) will put a softer heavy boolit right through a moose or an elk at 200 yards ( the motor compartment). If it hits a leg bone, it'll break a leg for sure. And you don't need the high velocity of smokelss to accomplish that. I don't think you'll like the cost per round as has been stated before.

Regards,
Bill

[JSnover]

The lead-free angle is worth thinking about. You could probably get a pretty respectable velocity out of them but I wonder if the lighter weight and higher speed might cause new problems with stability. If my tin was free I'd experiment with it just to see what happens downrange.

[jdgabbard]

I have been under the impression that harder boolits tend to fill out better. I.e. Lino, and #2. We add tin to help fill out. I'm not the expert on metallurgy so I'll leave that up to those of you who are. But I'd think if anything it'd drop +sized from the mold.

[StarMetal]

Generally speaking, the harder the cast boolit, the smaller the diameter. I wouldn't shoot an all tin boolit for a game or target application. I'm not sure what rifle you are going to be using and you haven't said what game you will be hunting. I know the big bores (45-70 and up) will put a softer heavy boolit right through a moose or an elk at 200 yards ( the motor compartment). If it hits a leg bone, it'll break a leg for sure. And you don't need the high velocity of smokelss to accomplish that. I don't think you'll like the cost per round as has been stated before.

Regards,
Bill

The harder alloys, such as Lino type cast larger diameter bullets.

I'm not sure if you're talking harder as in heat treating them or in alloys, but harder alloys cast larger diameter bullets.

Joe

[StarMetal]

One more post here. First I want to say something to Waksupi. Ric this is in no way to fire you up or anything. Just to let you know that I'm stating that you have tried this. Okay. Waksupi did experiment with a pure tin bullet and I believe the results he got weren't satisfactory. Ric please inject here what you found. It may have had to do with the caliber, I'm not sure.

Joe

[Jim]

I'm not gonna say I've done a LOT of it, but I've run quite a few and tested them. Lee .452 x 230 rebated RN mold produces a boolit that casts out at .455 and weighs 155. Lee .312 x 180 GC comes out .314 x 122. Lee 6.5 x 175 comes out .272 x 120. My calculations show that the tin boolits come out at about 65% of WW weight.
The peestol boolits didn't do so well as they started keyholing after about 25 or 30 yds. The rifle boolits can be pushed fairly fast, but the diameter needs to match the groove diameter real close or the pressure will spike.
As for the hardness, it's 'bout off the dang scale. They'll shatter when fired at 1" steel plate. As for bone penetration, they're 'bout like a drill bit.
I have about 50 or so lbs. of tin that I got on a "horse trade" and figured "what th' hay", so I played with it.

that's my story an' I'm stickin' to it.

[StarMetal]

I'm not gonna say I've done a LOT of it, but I've run quite a few and tested them. Lee .452 x 230 rebated RN mold produces a boolit that casts out at .455 and weighs 155. Lee .312 x 180 GC comes out .314 x 122. Lee 6.5 x 175 comes out .272 x 120. My calculations show that the tin boolits come out at about 65% of WW weight.
The peestol boolits didn't do so well as they started keyholing after about 25 or 30 yds. The rifle boolits can be pushed fairly fast, but the diameter needs to match the groove diameter real close or the pressure will spike.
As for the hardness, it's 'bout off the dang scale. They'll shatter when fired at 1" steel plate. As for bone penetration, they're 'bout like a drill bit.
I have about 50 or so lbs. of tin that I got on a "horse trade" and figured "what th' hay", so I played with it.

that's my story an' I'm stickin' to it.

What were the two guns you used to fire them? Wonder why the 45 went crazy. They have lead 155 gr loads for the 45 acp. That's interesting. I think Waksupi's test went along the lines of that 45 bullet, but it wasn't stabilization I don't think. I'll let him post what he found if he reads this.

Joe

[onceabull]

Gents: there is a recent thread in the "Ask Veral Smith" forum @ Graybeard's where he is recommending "No lead plumbing solder" as an alternative for Lead free hunting zones....."it is quite hard, casts like a dream,.........et al" . At least one fellow who is a member here is part of the posting group.... fwiw..Onceabull

[trk]

Anybody cast with pure tin? How does it cast and how does it compare to lead in terms of weight? Diameter from the mold? How about maleability - do they deform or shatter when the hit something like a leg bone?

I'm thinking in terms of hunting boolits, so not large volume...

There are at least two types of lead-free solders.

One for plumbers is 95-5 tin and (...) usually anitmony. Hard but not extremely hard.
Another 96.5 tin, 3.0 silver, 0.5% copper. (Copper varies from brand to brand - electronic solder).

The latter cast to a ROCKWELL B of 42 (where a Speer jacketed bullet is about 43).

It casts beautifully in STONE COLD molds.

Just starting to play seriously with it. Casting bullets is a pain - the moulds cool very slowly. My first ones (when the mould got hot) I just poured back out.

[odoh]

There are at least two types of lead-free solders.

One for plumbers is 95-5 tin and (...) usually anitmony. Hard but not extremely hard.
Another 96.5 tin, 3.0 silver, 0.5% copper. (Copper varies from brand to brand - electronic solder).

The latter cast to a ROCKWELL B of 42 (where a Speer jacketed bullet is about 43).

It casts beautifully in STONE COLD molds.

Just starting to play seriously with it. Casting bullets is a pain - the moulds cool very slowly. My first ones (when the mould got hot) I just poured back out.

Had a similar experience with 30/70 antimony/lead super hard alloy. As I wanted smaller ingots, I melted it and poured it into a LEE ½ lb mould just to see the antimony try to separate and stayed liquid/molten for way way too long. Seemed to create its own heat. After awhile watching it grow in the mould, I panicked and kicked them out of the mould before fully solidified. The moulds two ½ lb cavities looked damaged somehow ~ basically like the aluminum was overheated ~ obviously I know nothing of metallurgy.

[rob45]

What were the two guns you used to fire them? Wonder why the 45 went crazy. They have lead 155 gr loads for the 45 acp. That's interesting. I think Waksupi's test went along the lines of that 45 bullet, but it wasn't stabilization I don't think. I'll let him post what he found if he reads this.

Joe


I wonder if it has something to do with barrel twist? Indeed, there are plenty of 155grn loads for the 45, but those are based upon a lead alloy. The same weight bullet in tin will have a considerably different sectional density; it will be longer for the same weight. To me it seems that fact changes the twist needed for proper stabilization.

I don't know enough about it to say for sure, but definitely a thought to consider.

[O.S.O.K.]

Hmm, interesting.

I think stabalization will have to do with boolit length and velocity and not so much with weight.

X bullets for example are light for caliber - because they are just too long for the given twist at the heavier weights...

[JSnover]

Hmm, interesting.

I think stabalization will have to do with boolit length and velocity and not so much with weight.

X bullets for example are light for caliber - because they are just too long for the given twist at the heavier weights...

Generally you're right but weight is a function of diameter/length with a given alloy. When you knock off 30% of the weight but the size is virtually unchanged you end up with a length/diameter that needs a different velocity. At least that's how I understand it. I burned a few brain cells on the Barrel Twist thread awhile back.

[Jim]

There are at least two types of lead-free solders. One for plumbers is 95-5 tin and (...) usually anitmony. Hard but not extremely hard.
Another 96.5 tin, 3.0 silver, 0.5% copper. (Copper varies from brand to brand - electronic solder). The latter cast to a ROCKWELL B of 42 (where a Speer jacketed bullet is about 43). It casts beautifully in STONE COLD molds. Just starting to play seriously with it. Casting bullets is a pain - the moulds cool very slowly. My first ones (when the mould got hot) I just poured back out.

TRK, you gotcha thumb down on it, bud. That 3 part alloy solder changes physical state at 450*F. It casts really nice in a cool mold (I think) 'cause it's hot enough to overcome the lack of heat in the mold and still flow. As for it's hardness, yeah buddy, it's hard alright! I've shot boolits of straight 3 part solder without lube and they shot like FLGCs. As for the sprue taking so long to harden, I put a wet shop towel on a pie plate next to the pot and cool the mold about every other boolit to intentionally keep the mold temp down. Something else, too: 3 part solder alloy will cast out at about 2 to 3 K larger than WW alloy will. I can't tell you how important it is to match the boolit size to groove diameter. If the the boolit is bigger than groove, the pressure will go through the roof. They ain't as hard as copper, but they'll rivet primers in a heartbeat!