Millitaria collecting.

[NSP64]

Do any members collect munitions??? I have a 'round I have been searching for info on and havn't been able to find any info on. It is 3.5" in dia. by 8" long(to where the fuse screws in) it is machined from steel. on the bottom is 30 H 16 and some other nubers I can't read. It has 2 brass/copper driving bands. 1 low. 1 high up. fired from something with 24 lands RH twist.

[Ricochet]

So the lands are pre-swaged into the copper driving bands? That's a projectile for a recoiless rifle. There were 90mm and 106mm versions used by the U.S. as well as the 57mm and 75mm. Perhaps you have one of these. I have an inert 75mm HEAT and a 106mm dummy round. The Brits, Russians and others had their own in different calibers.

[NSP64]

No not prerifled. It was shot.

[JIMinPHX]

Could be 90mm AA.

[NSP64]

Looking closely at it it might have the rifleing already stamped into it. Can you post a pic of yours Ricochet? My digital took a dump. If I measure around the bands it is 90.17 MM groove diameter.

[Ricochet]

My 106mm dummy round isn't going to be the same as your 90mm. I can probably dig it out for a snap if you want to see it, though.

[StarMetal]

Looking closely at it it might have the rifleing already stamped into it. Can you post a pic of yours Ricochet? My digital took a dump. If I measure around the bands it is 90.17 MM groove diameter.

If the round was fired there were be a tail towards the direction of the base of the round. The round is moving forward down the barrel and the displaced metal in the band has to go somewhere. Just like on a jacketed bullet there are tails from the rifling. Check for that. If there are none then more then likely they were prestamped.

Joe

[waksupi]

This may be a good place ask this. What is the red tipped .308 ammo? An old guy says he has been shooting it for 30 years, and says his rifle doesn't shoot well now. I'm the lucky guy who is getting the rifle to see what is wrong with it.

[felix]

I bet it is red phosphorous. White tip would be white phosphorous. Just guessing. Those would definitely give the results you are seeing. ... felix

[Ricochet]

I always thought a red or orange tip was a tracer.

[StarMetal]

I'd say it was tracer too. I have some recent NATO 308 that was orange tip tracer.

Felix, I'm not real sure they used phosphorus in that small of a bullet. Maybe someone else knows.

Joe

[NSP64]

16444

16445


Borrowed a camera ck pics, any info would help.

[Ricochet]

The way that copper's smeared back, it was fired IMO. Probably a 90mm AA shell as suggested above.

[StarMetal]

I was just going to say what Ricochet said, that's been fired.

Joe

[felix]

Prolly you both are correct. Whatever it is/was, it was temperature HOT going out the barrel! ... felix

[StarMetal]

Prolly you both are correct. Whatever it is/was, it was temperature HOT going out the barrel! ... felix


I've heard shooting tracers will wear out a barrel faster, haven't you heard something like that too Felix? Makes some sense in the fact that there should be more heat, but we'd have to be talking about the old tracers that lit right off....not these modern ones that light far away from your muzzle as to not give up your position.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, I don't know about the new stuff. My dad had a bunch of '06 ammo he took home from the Guam campaigns. He told us kids, 6 brothers, not to ever shoot the stuff in the attic. He had several bandoleers of different colors. He did let me shoot some of the black-tip stuff in his Johnson and 760 pump. I didn't see any value in it, so the remainder is still there as far as I know. It had the steel spike embedded. I wonder if they use steel now-a-days because titanium would be immensely more effective. Stuff was not nearly as accurate as normal issue 150-152 grainers, and in fact you can hear the core bounce clearly when the cartridge was bounced. Pure junk, but I guess was effective enough. ... felix

[JIMinPHX]

What is the red tipped .308 ammo?

Red Laquer Tip .308 = M62 Tracer (Overhead Fire Application)
Visible Trace 100-850 yards, min
50,000PSI Max ave.
2680fps+/- 30fps.
146 - 4 gr Bullet
FA-956 Lead Styphnate Primer
Double Based Spherical Powder
9" mean radius @ 600 yds.


The orange tip tracer is slightly faster, but has a looser accuracy spec. & is not rated for overhead fire.

M82 .308 ammo also has a red tip, but that's a blank cartridge.

[JIMinPHX]

Borrowed a camera ck pics, any info would help.

I've never seen bands that narrow or that far apart before, but then, I was never a deck gunner.

[StarMetal]

I've never seen bands that narrow or that far apart before, but then, I was never a deck gunner.


They do look far apart. Here are some projectiles for the 3" 50 caliber Naval AA guns WWII.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/2005-12-21/3in501.jpg

Rotating Band The rotating band is circular and made of commercially pure copper, copper alloy, or plastic seated in a scored cut in the after portion of the projectile body. For all minor- and medium-caliber projectiles, rotating bands are made of commercially pure copper or gilding metal, which is 90-percent copper and 10-percent zinc. Major-caliber projectile bands are of cupro-nickel alloy, containing 2.5-percent nickel or nylon with a Micarta insert. As a projectile with a metallic band passes through the bore of the gun, a certain amount of copper will be wiped back on the rotating band and will form a skirt of copper on the after end of the band as the projectile leaves the muzzle of the gun. This is known as fringing and is prevented by cutting grooves, called cannelures, in the band or by undercutting the lip on the after end of the band. These cuts provide space for the copper to accumulate. The primary functions of a rotating band are (1) to seal the forward end of the gun chamber against the escape of the propellant gas around the projectile; (2) to engage the rifling in the gun bore and impart rotation to the projectile; and (3) to act as a rear bourrelet on those projectiles that do not have a rear bourrelet.

Joe

[JIMinPHX]

What is the Micarta there for? Is it there as a cleaning abrasive?

[Ricochet]

A bit of trivia, but my old Metals Handbook calls 90/10 Cu/Zn "Commercial Bronze" and 95/5 Cu/Zn "Gilding Metal." Both alloys are popular for bullet jackets.

[10-x]

16448

16449

16450


NSP64,
Interesting projectile, checked some reference books(Ian Hogg's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Ammunition, Melton's and Lawrence's Guide to Civil War Artillery Projectiles and WWII and pictured 1950 TM9-1901) and it looks to be a late 19th century projectile. Reason is the rotating bands are at the bottom and near the top , modern projectiles have 1 or 2 rotating bands close together near the base of the projectile. Hoggs book has nothing like your projectile and he covers US and foriegn artillery. On the other hand the CW guide has several pretty close to yours except for the rotationg bands.
The pics above are from TM9-1901 dated 1950 and clearly show a 90mm conventional round and a recoilless round.
Suggest you try cleaning the area where the fuse screws in the top with some 4-0 steel wool, there may be more info stamped there.
Good luck,
10-x

[rockrat]

Black tip '06 would be armor piercing, blue would be incendiary, and red or orange is tracer. Tracer won't wear your barrel out quicker, but you might get some compounds in the barrel that will cause corrosion quickly, if you don't clean it out after firing.