What can I do about leading?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Howdy!

Please help me understand what is happening in my guns.

OK, I'm having leading problems, in two of my guns . . . shooting 38 Specials . . .

I slugged my barrels & measured my cylinders mentioned in this thread . . . http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63356

So both the Security Six & SP101 are leading up!

Two weekends ago I loaded up a bunch of different rounds (2.6, 2.9, 3.2, 3.6 gr Bullseye) to see what they did in my 3 different guns, hoping to find one load that would preform good in all three, so I can just make them all the same! (2.6 & 2.9 did the best as far as accuracy goes) I shot 8 rounds of each through each gun. Both double actions leaded up, Blackhawk did not! I used lee 158 TL SWC lubed with Lars White Label ALOX that were about 50%/50% recovered range lead & wheel weights, and Remington #1 1/2 primers.

Edit to add: Above should be Liquid XLOX (not Alox!) I used it straight out of the jug, thick like molasses!

Last weekend we went out and shot about 40 rounds through each gun, loaded w/lee 158TL SWC lubed with Lars White Label ALOX, and had 2.7 gr Bullseye, more leading . . . I noticed that I was getting leading in the forcing cone too! Cylinder also had some leading in it too!

Since I was out of my own castings . . . I had to send my mold back to Lee . . . explained here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=64784 I loaded up some Hornady 148 HBWC with 2.7gr Bullseye. More leading![smilie=b: But only at the forcing cone today, not the barrel rifling.

My Wife & I would take turns shooting into my boolit trap, we would each shoot two 5 shot strings for a ten shot group and then switch out targets, so the guns weren't heating up . . . not like 3 factory rounds through my .270! That barrel gets HOT!

Both guns are slugged at .355" I just pulled a loaded Lee casting and measured it, as suggested on another thread, and it was .3585" . . . the Hornady measured at .358" (The Blackhawk slugged at .356")

Do I need to push them faster? More lube? Softer alloy? I think they are not too small . . .

Also on a different note, If at the end of the shoot we run 5 - .357 mags through, loaded with 10.4 gr Blue dot with 158 gr JHP most of the leading goes away . . . if you look at the following pics of recovered rounds you can see the progressively less lead on the jacketed rounds . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/1stBoolitTrap005.jpg

So my question is I have heard somewhere that jacketed & cast should not be mixed. WHY IS THIS? Am I harming my gun?

[JudgeBAC]

What do the cylinder throats measure?

Try a different powder in the double action revolvers and see if it makes a difference.

Leading is a strange phenomenon. I have had similar issues in my .44 mags with Unique. 10 gr. behind the 429421 produced excellent accuracy in a M29 Smith but with bad leading. Same bullet same, melt, same hardness but with 2400 no leading. With 2400 I have not found the magic load yet.

I intend to buy some puff-lon just to experiment with and see if the Unique load leading problem disappears with something protecting the base of the bullet.

Keep experimenting, you will find the sweet spot eventually. Measuring the throats and bore and sizing accordingly is the right way to start; experiment from there.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Throats on all cylinders, on all three guns measure .358 except for one throat on the Blackhawk which is oblong . . . .358 one way & .359 the other way, also as noted in the other slugging thread the BH has different rifling . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Unfortunately I just bought a 4 pound jug of Bullseye . . . still working on my last pound container . . . don't use much . . . one of the reasons I like it, and it worked OK in my BH. Even though it is dirty:lol:

IF you were to choose between the following powders which would you say is the cleaner:
Red Dot
Unique
Win 231
The above are listed in my Hornady load manual

What is the cleanest burning fast burning powder that would work in these loads (cast 158 gr swc)

Edit to add:
I just saw in my 1988 Speers book that I have load info using the following powders:
Blue Dot
473AA
452AA

Which I already have for other loads, I'll give then a try once I get my mould back, but will try a few with my Hornady 148gr HBWC's . . .

Both of my load manuals are 20+ years old . . .

[Three44s]

There are those that say don't mix jacketed with lead ......

There are those that swear by using some jacketed to cleanse after lead .......

The major opinion is to clean all jacketed out before you run lead.

But lets back away from the heat of the moment .......

What I did to overcome leading was to polish my internals.

Roughness ........ and lead is a certain recipe for leading ..........

............ many other things are too ........ but if "you're rough" ......... nothing else really matters until you smooth things up a bit.

Three 44s

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

There are those that say don't mix jacketed with lead ......

There are those that swear by using some jacketed to cleanse after lead .......

The major opinion is to clean all jacketed out before you run lead.

But lets back away from the heat of the moment .......

What I did to overcome leading was to polish my internals.

Roughness ........ and lead is a certain recipe for leading ..........

............ many other things are too ........ but if "you're rough" ......... nothing else really matters until you smooth things up a bit.

Three 44s

How do you clean out the jacketed? We only shoot those last . . . and then clean the gun afterwards, and then don't shoot until our next session

Please explain what you mean by "smooth things up" or "polish" how do you do it?

Both double actions were "Lightly used" (I polished up the trigger/hammer on both)

The Hornady HBWC did not lead up as bad as mine I had cast . . .

[243winxb]

More Lube - Best results in applying liquid Xlox are when the Xlox is heated before applyin. This makes it flow more easily, and results in a more even coat. One technique is to boil water and pour it into a coffee mug, and then drop the bottle of liquid Xlox into the mug for about five minutes. Lay the freshly coated bullets on some wax paper to dry. Liquid alox will usually dry enough overnight to reload the next day, depending upon the humidity. Tacky bullets can be dusted with powdered graphite. Stop shooting jacketed bullets over lead fouling. Only shoot cast/lubes bullets till the barrel gets conditioned. If the lube is working you will get lube on the muzzle after 50 rounds.

If you subscribe to the "more is better" line of thought, your coated bullets may never dry. Don't go for a "golden" color but rather just a" light varnish". If you discover that your bullets are sticky the next day, you can get by with using a little less the next time. Keep reducing until the "stickiness" is gone by the next day.

If you are sizing your cast bullets, it is necessary to lube them first. Because the sizer will remove some of the surface of a larger diameter bullet, you "will" need to re-lubricate the bullets after they have been sized. Bullseye is fine for target loads. I would not go above 3.0 gr of Alliant Bullseye. Bullet diameter should be .3575 "to .358". Do not mix Hornady and your cast bullets without cleaning the barrel with Hoppies #9. The difference in lubes might not like each other. A little leading is normal as long as accuracy is not effected.

[Three44s]

123...,

"Please explain what you mean by "smooth things up" or "polish" how do you do it?"

Sorry for dropping that hint and running off ......... a higher calling ....... a hot breakfast was calling!

What I did:

I use Copper Chore Boy (copper scrubbing pads), the Lewis lead remover, a Lead Away cloth, JB or USP Bore paste ..........

.......... and either CorrosionX or Tetra Gun (cleaner lubricant combo version).

The "Lewis" is good but even better with forcing cones.

The Copper chore boy pad is good for everything else.
(Do not buy a substitute unless you check it with a magnet, there are copper plated steel pads lurking around, be careful!)

That's for heavy lead and early on.

The bore paste is a mild abrassive and about any good bore solvent work fine either together or swapping back and forth.

When it's all done ............ I prefer CorrosionX.

I have found that even the soot from firing that coats the exterior of your revolver ......

......... sticks less .............. on the order of a 70 to 80% reduction by treating with CorrosionX.

And the lead does not stick internally as much either.

Now many use even more forceful means to polish the internals ........ the bore and chamber internals ......... not triggers and such ............. :


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Click on "book" on the left side bar ....... even if you don't subscribe to their notions about firelapping ...... it's Fifteen bucks postage paid ........ WELL SPENT!!!

I am sort of confussed: What are you measuring with???

.355" on a couple of guns has me sort of dislexic here ........... are you using a caliper?

And .......... I would also invest 3or 4 bucks in a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox for your tumple lube slugs ........ just for laughs and giggles and a test.

When you can shoot factory swaged slugs .......... the Hornady's .......... your guns are not too out of wack ..........

And now off to another less popular calling ........ HONEYDO'S

Three 44s

[44man]

Leading in the forcing cone is caused by a soft boolit and a fast powder that expands the boolit at the gap and cone. You are blowing the boolit into that space and the bore is sizing it back down.
Leading just ahead of the cone is caused by boolit skid or a deformed boolit after it has expanded to fill the forcing cone. That ruins the lube grooves and blows away the lube. Skidding opens gas channels.
Deforming the base at the cone will make a poor base at the crown too.
If you insist on Bullseye, make the boolits VERY hard, 25 to 30 BHN. As the choice of powder gets slower burning, the boolit can be made softer.
A recovered cast boolit needs to look EXACTLY the same as the one you seated in the case but with rifling marks on it.
Yes, you can clean out lead with jacketed bullets but there will be some hard stuck lead that will still be ironed into the steel. Bad leading should never be shot out. Clean it out. Loose leading that is shot out by the next cast boolit, will also be removed with a jacketed. This type of leading means nothing. Even a softer boolit will remove it or a gas check boolit.
Small, loose strands that are pushed out with a tight patch will be normal and of no concern.

[243winxb]

slugged the barrel here are the results:
SP101 = .352
SS = .352
Blackhawk = .355 If these are correct diameters, the .352" will never shoot without leading. [smilie=b: The .355" bbl. might shoot.
On a different note, I measured the jacketed loads I recovered from my trap and they were at .355! So I think that the boolits are just too hard!
The mold is dropping them at .35875, so I tried one of those through my SP101, and it just barely left some of the micro lube groves, and measured at .355, pictured second from left, I then pushed a "big" one through, and it still came out .355, pictured on the left.

Security Six measured also .355 pictured third from left

Blackhawk measured .356 pictured on right

[243winxb]

If your measured fired bullet diameters are correct, you should not be sizing larger than .357" You will have to buy a standard mould, not a tumble lube type as you have no grooves left showing in you bullet photos.

[markinalpine]

If you measured bullet diameters are correct, you should not be sizing larger than .356" You will have to buy a standard mould, not a tumble lube type as you have no grooves left showing in you bullet photos.

...not boolits.

I hope you weren't kidding, though. Might want to use the :kidding: if you were.

Mark :bigsmyl2:

[243winxb]

...not boolits.

I hope you weren't kidding, though. Might want to use the :kidding: if you were.

Mark :bigsmyl2: Change one thing, size to .357" , he needs to hold the bullet in the case using the correct expander button diameter.

[Three44s]

I'd say soft lead and the forcing cone isn't the issue as he said:

"The Hornady HBWC did not lead up as bad as mine I had cast . . "

We need to figure out how he's measuring so we can prognosticate with some confidence.

Three 44s

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Sorry for the slow responce . . . I was at church and today was fellowship lunch, and then I came home so stuffed I took a nap!

I have been using a brass brush & Hoppe's #9 powder Solvent, also use Iosso Bore cleaner (a paste) also I have KleenBore Lead Away Cloth, gets it out, but takes 30 - 45 min!

I measure with a Lyman caliper . . . measures inside, outside . . .

I started out using a VERY HARD boolit cast by a guy in Tucson . . . I could not scratch the boolit with my fingernail . . . those are the ones I first used to slug my barrel . . . but was told to use soft lead, so I cast up some 100% recovered range lead, and then I got the .355 readings on the double actions

I don't have any pictures of my recovered tumble lube grooved Lee boolits that I cast myself . . .I'll try to open up the trap and get some out this afternoon.

I used the Xlox at room temp dumped a little dap into a zip lock bag, and rolled them around, they were dry in about 5 hrs . . . remember the humidity is about 20 - 35% out here, or less . . . The first batch I did, they looked fairly brown, so I did not put anymore in the bag for the next batch of boolits, I could see a "light" coating . . . I know that "light" is a matter of preception, and opinion, I'll try to get some pic also to give an idea . . .

I'm sorry above in first post I said I was using Alox, and it should have been XLOX

[Bret4207]

First off, do you have a standard to check your caliper against? It could be off because you have some really tight barrels.

2nd- 4/0 steel wool will clean any leading out ASAP, and it won't harm the barrel.

Leading in the cylinder usually means you're pushing the alloy way too fast.

[Lead pot]

I cant for the life of me understand why your getting leading with a jacketed bullet.

You say your shooting a 38 special in the 357 chamber. Chances are you are getting gas blow by and gas cuts using that short case with out the bullet being held back by the forcing cone to hold the bullet so it seals the chamber.

I know I know some will say I shoot 38 in a 357 chamber all the time with out a problem. That kind of makes me scratch my head.
That is like shooting a .45-70 in a .45-90 chamber results are gas cuts and leaded bores.

One thing you want to remember, if you have lead in the bore and don't get it all cleaned out it will just keep building up.
Shooting a copper jacket thinking that will clean the bore is just wishing.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

First off, do you have a standard to check your caliper against? It could be off because you have some really tight barrels.

2nd- 4/0 steel wool will clean any leading out ASAP, and it won't harm the barrel.

Leading in the cylinder usually means you're pushing the alloy way too fast.

Not really a "normal" standard, but the Hornady Swagged I'm measuring at .358" . . .

I use a RCBS uniflow powder measure, and a RCBS 5-0-5 powder scale . . . 2.7gr of Bullseye is not alot according to my data . . . I ran up to 4.0 gr with the hard cast boolits I bought, they too were leading . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I cant for the life of me understand why your getting leading with a jacketed bullet.

You say your shooting a 38 special in the 357 chamber. Chances are you are getting gas blow by and gas cuts using that short case with out the bullet being held back by the forcing cone to hold the bullet so it seals the chamber.

I know I know some will say I shoot 38 in a 357 chamber all the time with out a problem. That kind of makes me scratch my head.
That is like shooting a .45-70 in a .45-90 chamber results are gas cuts and leaded bores.

One thing you want to remember, if you have lead in the bore and don't get it all cleaned out it will just keep building up.
Shooting a copper jacket thinking that will clean the bore is just wishing.

The leading is in the barrel from the cast, the jacketed one rub some off . . .

I do shoot 38 speacials in my 357 Blackhawk a lot! No problems, bought the Blackhawk back in the 80's . . . just got the two double actions . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I recovered these out of my boolit trap! I use a "rubber mulch" which is old tires died red . . . Notice there is some "dust" stuck to the lube from the rubber mulch & cardboard it went through.

Cast from my Lee mold:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/RecoveredBoolits001.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/RecoveredBoolits003.jpg

Hornady Swagged HBWC 148gr:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/RecoveredBoolits006.jpg

My Calipers:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/RecoveredBoolits008.jpg

How I measure . . . Using a smooth shaft screwdriver I have found NO difference between the flat area I am showing and the tapered area at the tip of the caliper. I use the wider flat area because I don't want to by accident get down in one of the lube grooves . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/RecoveredBoolits009.jpg

[geargnasher]

And second, if you're measuring your cylinder throats with a sliding caliper using the inside feature, it will not be accurate due to the flat edges of the caliper jaws engaging the round throat sides. That's what ball mics are for. Or hole gauges, even better. Just slug your cylinder throats with soft lead fishing sinkers of the appropriate size (fresh slug for each hole).

Also check for barrel restriction at the frame, I think this is actually what you will find to be your problem, very common in Rugers, the forcing cone can be as much as .002" smaller than the rest of the barrel causing terrible leading at and beyond the forcing cone.

What size were the boolits you were shooting? I didn't get that from your posts.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ok, posted before you put all those pics up!!

That really tells a story. You can see the gas-cutting on the swcs and a little skidding, but he wadcutters really show some bad skidding. I would expect the swcs to have leaded the bore like crazy in just a few shots.

Again, check your forcing cone and barrel dimensions carefully, I think you have a restriction there causing the gas cutting. I also think a smaller, secondary issue is you're using the sixth fastest powder on the planet for Magnum handgun loads. Not usually a good idea, especially with revolvers where a soft launch is much more important. I would use Blue Dot, 2400, or Lil'Gun. And remember that those 20 year old books list loads with some powders that are vastly different nowdays, use some of the online references from Alliant and Hodgedon as a guide.

Gear

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

If you insist on Bullseye, make the boolits VERY hard, 25 to 30 BHN. As the choice of powder gets slower burning, the boolit can be made softer.



I'm not "insisting" on using Bullseye, but I have used some very hard boolits . . .still leading . . . maybe they need to be harder?

Since it seems (I could be wrong) that you are not a fan of Bullseye . . . I have had good success with it in my Blackhawk . . . so what do you recommend for a powder with the softer lead that I'm using?

[geargnasher]

oops, forgot to tell you how to check the forcing cone. Ok, use the softest slug you have, those Hornady hbwcs will work. Oil you bore and drive one into the barrel until it is about an inch shy of the barrel/frame junction. Cut a few pieces of 1/4" dowell that will fit through the cylinder opening and use them to push the slug back out the muzzle, stacking one on top of another until the slug is out. Then drive another slug all the way through the barrel. Compare. The difference is the amount that the barrel was crushed when it was screwed into the frame. If you have anything over .0005" I would have a gunsmith fix it. A gun will not function properly unless all the dimensions are reasonably correct.

Gear

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Ok, posted before you put all those pics up!!

That really tells a story. You can see the gas-cutting on the swcs and a little skidding, but he wadcutters really show some bad skidding. I would expect the swcs to have leaded the bore like crazy in just a few shots.

Again, check your forcing cone and barrel dimensions carefully, I think you have a restriction there causing the gas cutting. I also think a smaller, secondary issue is you're using the sixth fastest powder on the planet for Magnum handgun loads. Not usually a good idea, especially with revolvers where a soft launch is much more important. I would use Blue Dot, 2400, or Lil'Gun. And remember that those 20 year old books list loads with some powders that are vastly different nowdays, use some of the online references from Alliant and Hodgedon as a guide.

Gear


Gear . . . I'm loading light 38 specials . . . the powder I'm using is actually 20 years old! I haven't opened up the new jugs yet . . .

Allaint website says 3.1gr Bullseye for 148 gr HBWC
and 3.5gr Bullseye for 158gr LSWC

[geargnasher]

Bullseye is great stuff, possibly the best for the .38 special, but we're talking 1/3 the pressure levels of the .357.

If you're trying to diagnose an issue, triple-check your gun's dimensions and then TRY a slower powder, just to see what gives.

My stepladder algorithm for leading:

1) Measure ALL the critical gun dimensions and check the finish of forcing cone, barrel and cylinder throats, Fix these areas first.

2) Determine if the alloy is too soft or too hard for the velocity and powder I'm using. Adjust powder burn-rate or alloy as necessary.

3) Change lubes or boolit style.

4) Ask for help here! (I do that a lot)

5) Sell the gun to someone who shoots J-words

Gear

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

And second, if you're measuring your cylinder throats with a sliding caliper using the inside feature, it will not be accurate due to the flat edges of the caliper jaws engaging the round throat sides. That's what ball mics are for. Or hole gauges, even better. Just slug your cylinder throats with soft lead fishing sinkers of the appropriate size (fresh slug for each hole).

Also check for barrel restriction at the frame, I think this is actually what you will find to be your problem, very common in Rugers, the forcing cone can be as much as .002" smaller than the rest of the barrel causing terrible leading at and beyond the forcing cone.

What size were the boolits you were shooting? I didn't get that from your posts.

Gear

The cast started out being .35875" (obviously my caliper does not measure down that far . . . but it was almost .359" but not quite, and more than .358 &1/2)

The Hornady were .358"

I had the .358 hard cast that I bought, and I could just barely push them into the cylinder with my fingers . . . tight, but posible, the one hole on the Blackhawk was a tad easier.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Here is another picture of recovered boolits . . . these are the hard cast ones . . . not a real good picture I took a few weeks ago before I started casting my own . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/1stBoolitTrap004.jpg

[stubshaft]

All good tips!

I would recommend that you get rid of the plastic calipers nd buy a micrometer. Gives much more accurate readings.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

All good tips!

I would recommend that you get rid of the plastic calipers nd buy a micrometer. Gives much more accurate readings.


I hear you on the plactic, surprised nobody else mentioned it! But they do seem to be consistant . . . I am looking for a used micrometer on fleabay . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

My Ruger SP101 with 3.0625" bbl shooting LEE TL 158 gr SWC:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/STWTarget10-12-09.jpg

SP101 with Hornady 148gr HBWC:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/STWTarget10-17-09.jpg

MY wife shooting her Ruger Security Six with 4" bbl" and Lee TL 158gr SWC (and a few 158 gr JHP 357's with 10.4 gr BlueDot (not 12.4 like it says on the target!):

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/CLWTarget10-17-09.jpg

Security Six with Hornady 148gr HBWC:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/CLWTarget10-12-09.jpg

These are not target guns, and we are not the best shots . . . I'm more concerned with leading than the accuracy point, but obviously smaller groups would make us happy . . .:smile:

[geargnasher]

I hear you on the plactic, surprised nobody else mentioned it! But they do seem to be consistant . . . I am looking for a used micrometer on fleabay . . .


Plastic calipers or no, if you can push them through the cylinder with your fingers they aren't too big. If they are tight, they aren't too small.

Please satisfy my curiosity and check further down, the forcing cone and barrel dimensions of the guns that are leading could be your issue, eliminate that before going further. Plus it won't cost you anything except a couple of slugs and a few minutes of your time. Even the cheapo plastic calipers should be able to tell the difference between a slug driven all the way through the forcing cone area and one driven up to it and back out.

Gear

[geargnasher]

You fix the leading you'll go a long way toward fixing those "patterns". Then you can shoot "groups", but you gotta get the gun to do it before the shooter can.

Gear

[Three44s]

................................................

We need to figure out how he's measuring so we can prognosticate with some confidence.

Three 44s

I mentioned your measurement regiment.

A steel caliper would not suffice either for what you are attempting to do.

Only a micrometer of the right kind will be appropriate, namely a ball micrometer:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#ball%20micrometer____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

I would say this about your Bullseye ....... be patient ......... I think once you get the kinks out of your round shooters you can do some loading with it for "specials".

But I would at least try a powder as slow as Unique and lighter charges.

And put your preceptions about hard cast boolits aside for the time being. They ain't all they are cracked up to be as they cause more problems than they solve in the wrong gun and circumstances.

Three 44s

[geargnasher]

I mentioned your measurement regiment.

A steel caliper would not suffice either for what you are attempting to do.

Only a micrometer of the right kind will be appropriate, namely a ball micrometer:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#ball%20micrometer____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

I would say this about your Bullseye ....... be patient ......... I think once you get the kinks out of your round shooters you can do some loading with it for "specials".

But I would at least try a powder as slow as Unique and lighter charges.

And put your preceptions about hard cast boolits aside for the time being. They ain't all they are cracked up to be as they cause more problems than they solve in the wrong gun and circumstances.

Three 44s

I agree fully with you, but you know as well as I do that a barrel restriction (like Rugers are famous for) at the forcing cone will cause leading and huge groups no matter what powder, boolit alloy, or boolit is used. That's why I'm lobbying so strongly for checking the gun first. Any good .357 with a 4" or better barrel ought to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with a 158 Gr swc at 16 bhn and 2.9 gr of Bullseye and .38 spl cases all day long. If it won't, and it leads, I would shake out the gun really well with a good mic and maybe a timing bar to be absolutely convinced it was dimensionally perfect (or close enough) before I faulted the loads.

Gear

[machinisttx]

I hear you on the plactic, surprised nobody else mentioned it! But they do seem to be consistant . . . I am looking for a used micrometer on fleabay . . .

I don't know about Arizona, but here it's pretty easy to find them for $20 or so in pawn shops(I've bought the stainless steel, carbide faced, .0001" reading Starrett 1" mics for as little as $15). You can buy a brand new Starrett for about $80, or a Mitutoyo for about $60(both on sale)...and to be perfectly honest I think that's a better route for anyone who isn't familiar with precision tools. I just checked and regular price on a Brown and Sharpe 1" mic at Enco is $85 and change. Lots of things could be wrong with a used mic, and a bad one certainly won't deliver the precision or accuracy required.

For measuring cylinder throats, you need a set of pin gages, which run about $40-$50 on sale..or you can buy a set of small holes gages and use them with a mic..or you can just measure a slug after driving it through the throat.

[stubshaft]

I agree fully with you, but you know as well as I do that a barrel restriction (like Rugers are famous for) at the forcing cone will cause leading and huge groups no matter what powder, boolit alloy, or boolit is used. That's why I'm lobbying so strongly for checking the gun first. Any good .357 with a 4" or better barrel ought to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with a 158 Gr swc at 16 bhn and 2.9 gr of Bullseye and .38 spl cases all day long. If it won't, and it leads, I would shake out the gun really well with a good mic and maybe a timing bar to be absolutely convinced it was dimensionally perfect (or close enough) before I faulted the loads.

Gear

I agree with you about the restriction near the forcing cone on Rugers. Some Smith's are a little tight also (usually the ones that do not have the locking pin in the frame. I have lapped the restriction out of a couple of Rugers the most recent a BH 45LC that I bought because the owner wasn't able to get it to group.

[Three44s]

geargnasher,

Yes, I agree with you about the restrictions ...... and thought you were doing yeomans work on it and did not want to trample on your efforts.

I did try to impress him early on with the idea of getting Marshal Stanton's book and he'd get a snoot full of bullet fitament there and he'd be able to revisit it at will.

I know I have sure enjoyed mine even though I have not yet tried the firelapping nor even done any throats. Only my SRH will likely benefit, the RH and Smith MG are gems from the get go once I polished the bores and chambers with USP bore paste.

Regards

Three 44s

[geargnasher]

I don't know about Arizona, but here it's pretty easy to find them for $20 or so in pawn shops(I've bought the stainless steel, carbide faced, .0001" reading Starrett 1" mics for as little as $15). You can buy a brand new Starrett for about $80, or a Mitutoyo for about $60(both on sale)...and to be perfectly honest I think that's a better route for anyone who isn't familiar with precision tools. I just checked and regular price on a Brown and Sharpe 1" mic at Enco is $85 and change. Lots of things could be wrong with a used mic, and a bad one certainly won't deliver the precision or accuracy required.

For measuring cylinder throats, you need a set of pin gages, which run about $40-$50 on sale..or you can buy a set of small holes gages and use them with a mic..or you can just measure a slug after driving it through the throat.

You know your tools. Brown & Sharpe has served me well. I would advise anyone against buying Fowler's hole gauges, they're too springy for accurate cylinder measurements, but I don't know who makes a better set. Of course pin gauges would be far better if cost were no object.

Gear

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I mentioned your measurement regiment.

A steel caliper would not suffice either for what you are attempting to do.

Only a micrometer of the right kind will be appropriate, namely a ball micrometer:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#ball%20micrometer____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

I would say this about your Bullseye ....... be patient ......... I think once you get the kinks out of your round shooters you can do some loading with it for "specials".

But I would at least try a powder as slow as Unique and lighter charges.

And put your preceptions about hard cast boolits aside for the time being. They ain't all they are cracked up to be as they cause more problems than they solve in the wrong gun and circumstances.

Three 44s

I'm confused . . . how would a ball micrometer benefit me in measuring either cylinder throat or slugs?

Wouldn't I be better off with a outside micrometer? like this $$$ http://www.mytoolstore.com/starrett/micro004.html

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I agree fully with you, but you know as well as I do that a barrel restriction (like Rugers are famous for) at the forcing cone will cause leading and huge groups no matter what powder, boolit alloy, or boolit is used. That's why I'm lobbying so strongly for checking the gun first. Any good .357 with a 4" or better barrel ought to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with a 158 Gr swc at 16 bhn and 2.9 gr of Bullseye and .38 spl cases all day long. If it won't, and it leads, I would shake out the gun really well with a good mic and maybe a timing bar to be absolutely convinced it was dimensionally perfect (or close enough) before I faulted the loads.

Gear


So are the above figures figuring on a bench rest, or free hand?

Those targets were all shot two handed standing . . .

Also my SP 101 has just over 3" . . . I'd be very happy with 2" at 25 yards . . . of course I carry my SP101 CC for self-defense . . .no my Blackhawk on the other hand, I expect better from!

I'll work on getting the bore & forcing cone slugged and measured. (Maybe tomorrow evening . . .)

[geargnasher]

Sorry, Benz, you're right, the ball mic wouldn't help you measure the cylinder at all! I had crankshaft bearings on my mind when I posted that, but I also mentioned hole gauges in the same sentence. I was trying to explain why the caliper jaws won't measure a hole accurately because the flat jaw surface actually measures diameter inside of the Chord length created by the edges of the flat jaws on the round cylinder.

I said "Any good .357 with a 4" barrel" should shoot those numbers, not "the shooter". I can shoot a 2 inch, 5 shot group with some, not all, of my revolvers on a really good day with two hands at 15 yards standing. I'm not a very good shot with a pistol. I'm an even worse shot with a pistol that can't shoot straight to begin with. However, I can routinely make ragged hole groups with one or 2 of my revolvers at 25 yards from a sandbag rest, and that makes them a lot more fun to shoot offhand. I have had others shoot my guns with my loads int them far better than I can. If I KNOW the pistol can shoot straight, I can focus on my ability rather than worry if it's me or the gun.

Now I know I'm gonna get grilled for posting any kind of accuracy claim and go down in history as claiming to be the next Bob Munden, but I'll bookmark this post for later reference :kidding:

Gear

[geargnasher]

Also, my Mother's 2" SS S&W .357 Magnum shot 5 in 1-1/4" several times from bags with .38 brass, Bullseye, and Lyman 358665s cast from heat-treated WW. Just that it wasn't me pulling the trigger. And the gun is perfectly dimensioned, timed, and has a flawless cylinder, bore, and forcing cone finish. It might shoot better than that if it had real sights.

Gear

[Lead pot]

This is the type of micrometer you need to measure a 5 groove bullet.

http://www.auto-met.com/mitutoyo/micrometer/VAnvil_Micrometers.htm

Or you can use a 60° V block and your calipers and do a little math.

[machinisttx]

You know your tools. Brown & Sharpe has served me well. I would advise anyone against buying Fowler's hole gauges, they're too springy for accurate cylinder measurements, but I don't know who makes a better set. Of course pin gauges would be far better if cost were no object.

Gear

:mrgreen: I use the Mitutoyo small hole gages, but I'm not fond of them(or any other for that matter) for exactly the reason you state. I would rather have pin gages or a dial bore gauge...or tri mikes if I can get them.

[machinisttx]

I'm confused . . . how would a ball micrometer benefit me in measuring either cylinder throat or slugs?

Wouldn't I be better off with a outside micrometer? like this $$$ http://www.mytoolstore.com/starrett/micro004.html

I think enco is a little cheaper on the Starrett mics. Get either a friction(preferable IMO) or a ratchet thimble. Brown and Sharpe or Mitutoyo are just as good and cost a little less. I happen to prefer Starrett because of how they feel, but wouldn't hesitate to use one of the other two. I'd love to see Starrett use the same type of friction thimble as B&S.....

[machinisttx]

This is the type of micrometer you need to measure a 5 groove bullet.

http://www.auto-met.com/mitutoyo/micrometer/VAnvil_Micrometers.htm

Or you can use a 60° V block and your calipers and do a little math.

Not sure if you linked the wrong page, but all those are for three flute cutters or three groove barrels.

[geargnasher]

This is the type of micrometer you need to measure a 5 groove bullet.

http://www.auto-met.com/mitutoyo/micrometer/VAnvil_Micrometers.htm

Or you can use a 60° V block and your calipers and do a little math.


Yes, I would love to know the genius that came up with 5-groove rifling (did he work for S&W?). thanks for the link. I don't have a 60" block either, I've always checked mine by putting 2 carefully made slugs together side by side with the "pairs" of "Lands" touching and mic'd across both of them at the "lands" of the boolits 180* apart. then divide by 2 and subtract the distance from the chord across the "groove" on the boolit to the arc of it's radius at the middle of the chord. You kinda have to guess at the boolit diameter to start with to get the correct arc, but it will be close.

Gear

[Three44s]

Geeze, maybe I should sell my SRH that has some issues rather than get this deep into micrometers. That would leave me with two other .44s that shoot right out of the box with no issues once they had been cleaned 4 or 5 times with USP.

I did a stint with my ball mike and it resulted in a fizzle ......... but alas ...... it was a J-word fired from a Smith 57 ............

....... FIVE GROOVE .........

and I am not giving up on Smiths.

Question:

Is it not so that the spindle on most micrometers is too large in diameter and will in fact bridge across to groove diameter if you want to read lands?

Or do "we" care about the lands dimension much. ????

This bridging brought me to the conclusion that ball mics offered a solution when I saw Geargnasher refering to them.

Sorry for the confusion, 123.DieselBenz!!!

If you send your slugs to Beartooth Bullets they will measure them for you (I can't speak as to their turn around time) ............

Three 44s

[geargnasher]

Geeze, maybe I should sell my SRH that has some issues rather than get this deep into micrometers. That would leave me with two other .44s that shoot right out of the box with no issues once they had been cleaned 4 or 5 times with USP.

I did a stint with my ball mike and it resulted in a fizzle ......... but alas ...... it was a J-word fired from a Smith 57 ............

....... FIVE GROOVE .........

and I am not giving up on Smiths.

Question:

Is it not so that the spindle on most micrometers is too large in diameter and will in fact bridge across to groove diameter if you want to read lands?

Or do "we" care about the lands dimension much. ????

This bridging brought me to the conclusion that ball mics offered a solution when I saw Geargnasher refering to them.

Sorry for the confusion, 123.DieselBenz!!!

If you send your slugs to Beartooth Bullets they will measure them for you (I can't speak as to their turn around time) ............

Three 44s


???

Ball mic is mostly useless for gun stuff, they are intended to measure crankshaft and rod bearing thickness and the ball part eliminates the bridging to which you refer. You need a regular c-clamp mic and soft lead slugs for guns.

Gear

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

This is the type of micrometer you need to measure a 5 groove bullet.

http://www.auto-met.com/mitutoyo/micrometer/VAnvil_Micrometers.htm

Or you can use a 60° V block and your calipers and do a little math.


Don't think I'll be ordering any of those . . . cost more than the gun did!

[243winxb]

Those targets were all shot two handed standing . . .

Also my SP 101 has just over 3" . . . I'd be very happy with 2" at 25 yards . . . of course I carry my SP101 CC for self-defense . . .no my Blackhawk on the other hand, I expect better from! Your target groups are fine for the average person shooting off hand @10yds. with short barrel revolvers. The shorter the sight radius, the harder the gun is to shoot. As for all 3 guns having the same barrel problem , no way. Cleaning the barrel and letting the lube condition the barrel is needed. Stop shooting jacketed bullets over the lead.

[Bret4207]

Okay, as has been mentioned you need a proper measuring instrument. The plastic calipers are fine for measuring case length and stuff, but not so much for what you're trying to do. And forget telling anyone your boolits are .35875 Without a standard to measure against you're just guessing. What you can try is finding a jacketed bullet by a good manufacturer and measuring that. Sierra for instance is very close to their advertised diameter. That will at least get you within a thou or so. But even that isn't telling the whole story. From your pics you have some skidding and gas cutting. The skidding means you're pushing them too fast, try a slower powder or lighter load. It can also mean your boolits are too small, but not always. (Just a note- I really doubt your barrels are .355- one I can see, but 2!? Not. Your mic is off.) The gas cutting can also be a fit issue and all the hardness alloy in the world won't fix it. If you have a restriction in the barrel that will just make things worse.

At this point I think you have a combination of issues- improper size, too fast a load to start with. Plus- shooting a jacketed boolit after lead and thinking that all the leading is gone is a fallacy. You need to get in there with some 4/0 steel wool on a brush and get the lead out. Then address the issue of jacket fouling and see if there's any of that in the guns. You may not have any restrictions in the barrel/frame area, it may just be a fouled barrel.

Go back to square one and start there. Get the guns clean, determine if you have barrel restrictions and see where your caliper is really at.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Your target groups are fine for the average person shooting off hand @10yds. with short barrel revolvers. The shorter the sight radius, the harder the gun is to shoot. As for all 3 guns having the same barrel problem , no way. Cleaning the barrel and letting the lube condition the barrel is needed. Stop shooting jacketed bullets over the lead.

I'm only having leading in two guns, but seems strange that they both are double action, and have the same type of rifling, and same diameter barrels . . .

Both guns are self-defense weapons for us, I tried to get my wife a smaller gun like mine, for easy of carry and less weight, but she prefers the bigger gun, less recoil with the 357 mags, and she likes the adjutable sights so she doesn't need to compensate like I do . . . My SP101 I was aiming at the top of the target (Top ring) to get those where thet need to be (Shoots about 3" low at this distance)

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Okay, as has been mentioned you need a proper measuring instrument. The plastic calipers are fine for measuring case length and stuff, but not so much for what you're trying to do. And forget telling anyone your boolits are .35875 Without a standard to measure against you're just guessing. What you can try is finding a jacketed bullet by a good manufacturer and measuring that. Sierra for instance is very close to their advertised diameter. That will at least get you within a thou or so. But even that isn't telling the whole story. From your pics you have some skidding and gas cutting. The skidding means you're pushing them too fast, try a slower powder or lighter load. It can also mean your boolits are too small, but not always. (Just a note- I really doubt your barrels are .355- one I can see, but 2!? Not. Your mic is off.) The gas cutting can also be a fit issue and all the hardness alloy in the world won't fix it. If you have a restriction in the barrel that will just make things worse.

At this point I think you have a combination of issues- improper size, too fast a load to start with. Plus- shooting a jacketed boolit after lead and thinking that all the leading is gone is a fallacy. You need to get in there with some 4/0 steel wool on a brush and get the lead out. Then address the issue of jacket fouling and see if there's any of that in the guns. You may not have any restrictions in the barrel/frame area, it may just be a fouled barrel.

Go back to square one and start there. Get the guns clean, determine if you have barrel restrictions and see where your caliper is really at.


OK, I do remember seeing some outside micrometers at church a few months ago, (we have a printing press and need to maintain it ourselves) I'll swing by there this morning on my lunch hour.

I do see now that it is possible that I had fouling in the barrel when I slugged it which could also give me a false reading. THANX!

When you state "use 4/0 steel wool" I'm unclear as to what that means, please bear with me I'm trying to learn. Does this mean "between 4 & 0" or "0000" or is that actually a grade/coarseness? (I have some "Grade 0" in my shed)

When I use the steelwool do I put it on top of, or around my standard brass brush? or use a smaller diameter brush? (I also picked up what I believe is a stainless steel brush, but I'm hesitant to use it . . . should I be?) Do I use a solvent with steelwool, or oil?

Will the steelwool deal with the jacket fouling too, or do I need something different? Can I see this jacket fouling? After I get done cleaning my guns now (Doing a better job, the last two times since I noticed the leading more & more) I look down the bore from the muzzle end, and see only clean bore, I then look at the forcing cone and that is clean (been taking me 45 - 60 min to clean!) It was only two times ago that I noticed the forcing cone & cylinder!

[44man]

From the appearance of the land marks on those boolits, they look wider then the actual lands in the bore, all the way to the base. I think there might be an indication of gas leakage on a few also.
It is OK to have some slippage on the top of the boolit but not at the base. What is wanted is complete obturation at the base in the bore, even a gap as small as gas molecules will leak.
I am not 100% against soft boolits, they can and do seal good because they flow.
I usually say try harder but the boolit MUST be the right size, however I never had any luck with store bought boolits no matter how hard.
My reason is that after a lot of testing with fast powders, accuracy improved a great deal as I worked to harder boolits. In fact a 25 BHN boolit was shooting smaller groups at 50 yards then I was getting at 25 with a softer alloy.
Nothing is set in stone and soft boolits can prevent leading as well as cause it just the same as a hard boolit can.
Each gun is different too and reacts to alloys different.
A lot of the fellas explain how to measure and conditions in the gun and they are right on spot, the gun has to be right to start with. If something is not right, all the boolits in the world will not cure the problem.
I went back and looked at the jacketed shot after cast and everyone can see less and less lead smears as they were shot but that is no indication that all was removed. If any was ironed into the steel, it will just grab more when the next cast is shot.
Normal leading would have shot out in front of a bullet without smearing lead all over the outsides. Now you might have some copper to contend with and could have even coated leading with copper. Lead seems to have an affinity to copper that is worse then steel.
Measuring a slug pushed all the way through the bore or a fired slug will give the measurement at the tight spot if there is one so if you get .355" how do you know that farther up the bore is not .357"?

[Lead pot]

Yes, I would love to know the genius that came up with 5-groove rifling (did he work for S&W?). thanks for the link. I don't have a 60" block either, I've always checked mine by putting 2 carefully made slugs together side by side with the "pairs" of "Lands" touching and mic'd across both of them at the "lands" of the boolits 180* apart. then divide by 2 and subtract the distance from the chord across the "groove" on the boolit to the arc of it's radius at the middle of the chord. You kinda have to guess at the boolit diameter to start with to get the correct arc, but it will be close.

Gear

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok if you don't have a 60 degree block you can use a 108° for five grooves or a 90 degree block.

Calibrate it with an accurate diameter pin like a drill rod and then measure the bullet and V-block with an ordinary micrometer or calipers. Then use the math below.

a = the included angle of the V-block,
t = the thickness of the V-block from the bottom of the V to the bottom,
h = the measured height of the bullet and V-block,
d = the diameter of the bullet.

For a an example using a 5 groove bullet, the included angle (a) is 108°, assume the V-block "thickness" (t) is .250" and the measured total height (h) is .5854", then
d = 2(.5854 - .250)/ (1 + 1/sin (108/2))
d = 2(.5854 - .250)/ (1 + 1/sin 54)
d = 2(.5854 - .250)/ (1 + 1/.80901)
d = 2(.5854 - .250)/ (1 + 1.23607)
d = 2(.5854 - .250)/ (2.23607)
d = 2(.3354)/(2.23607)
d = .6708/2.23607
d = .300

A way to determine the V-block thickness (t) is to measure a known cylinder and then calculate it from

t = h - (d/2) (1+1/sin(a/2) )


By the way 123 Dieselbenz.
Sorry the part of the lead bullets used just blew right past me when I looked at the photo of the jacketed bullets.:veryconfu

[243winxb]

Some leading is normal, same as copper left in the barrel from jacketed bullets. If you have a real problem of leading your groups would be much larger. I have seen real leading in 2 guns in many years. One a Colt Python, shooting soft swaged 148gr wc, with 2.7 Bullseye. At 50ft, only about 1/2 of the shots fired would hit the paper at all. All other loads worked just fine in the Python. The barrel slugged at .354" A used Ruger secutity six had very heavy damage in the first inch of the rifling, not from the factory. More than lilkely from someone trying to slug the barrel. This was removed using a lapping compound, end of lead foulling. Having fired many used 38/357 leading is not common when bullets are sized to the correct diameter of .3575" to .358" Bullseye is the perfect power for light 38 special loads as long as your dont go over 3.0 gr with a 158gr bullet. Keep in mind that your bullet as it drops from the mould will almost always have a heavier weight then 158 gr. This is why you dont want to use the maximum loads listed in books for cast bullets.

[badgeredd]

OK, I do remember seeing some outside micrometers at church a few months ago, (we have a printing press and need to maintain it ourselves) I'll swing by there this morning on my lunch hour.

I do see now that it is possible that I had fouling in the barrel when I slugged it which could also give me a false reading. THANX!

When you state "use 4/0 steel wool" I'm unclear as to what that means, please bear with me I'm trying to learn. Does this mean "between 4 & 0" or "0000" or is that actually a grade/coarseness? (I have some "Grade 0" in my shed)

When I use the steelwool do I put it on top of, or around my standard brass brush? or use a smaller diameter brush? (I also picked up what I believe is a stainless steel brush, but I'm hesitant to use it . . . should I be?) Do I use a solvent with steelwool, or oil?

Will the steelwool deal with the jacket fouling too, or do I need something different? Can I see this jacket fouling? After I get done cleaning my guns now (Doing a better job, the last two times since I noticed the leading more & more) I look down the bore from the muzzle end, and see only clean bore, I then look at the forcing cone and that is clean (been taking me 45 - 60 min to clean!) It was only two times ago that I noticed the forcing cone & cylinder!

Although I am far from and expert, I did notice something that may be contributing to your leading. The Double Action guns appear to be chambered for 357 Mag. Is that correct? If so, I have had trouble with a 357 shooting 38 Sp/short boolit combinations because of the bullet jump, I think. It seems like there is enough room to allow gas cutting to start as soon as the boolit leaves the case. I'd try using 357 cases loaded down to the 38 Sp ballistics to see if that made a difference.

On the barrel restriction at the threads...one can do some judicious fire lapping that will greatly improve the restriction. The fore mentioned Beartooth bullet book is a really good reference for boolit fit problems. WELL worth its cost.

As mentioned before, clean and smooth barrel/cylinder is essential to get things going in the right direction. Also I had huge problems with hard cast boolits and leading. Softer (WW air cooled) alloy cured a lot of my troubles.

Keep at it and you'll find the right combination for your guns.

Edd

[CJR]

Shawn,

You have received excellent advice here. I would recommend the following:

1. Rethroat the barrel cone. Brownell sells a tool for this. Use the target version taper.
2. Buy a 250 pc. set of pin gages (.250-.500 inch). Wholesale Tools has them for $55. You can use them to accurately measure; your cylinder throats (for proper bullet diameter to use) as well as the barrel bore (to determine whether there is a barrel constriction were the barrel screws into the frame).
3. If you have a barrel/frame bore constriction, fire lap the barrel.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[44man]

Although I am far from and expert, I did notice something that may be contributing to your leading. The Double Action guns appear to be chambered for 357 Mag. Is that correct? If so, I have had trouble with a 357 shooting 38 Sp/short boolit combinations because of the bullet jump, I think. It seems like there is enough room to allow gas cutting to start as soon as the boolit leaves the case. I'd try using 357 cases loaded down to the 38 Sp ballistics to see if that made a difference.

On the barrel restriction at the threads...one can do some judicious fire lapping that will greatly improve the restriction. The fore mentioned Beartooth bullet book is a really good reference for boolit fit problems. WELL worth its cost.

As mentioned before, clean and smooth barrel/cylinder is essential to get things going in the right direction. Also I had huge problems with hard cast boolits and leading. Softer (WW air cooled) alloy cured a lot of my troubles.

Keep at it and you'll find the right combination for your guns.

Edd
HEY, good catch, I missed that. Short brass never works like what the gun is chambered for.
It is not boolit jump as long as it is confined to the throat but when down in the chamber funny things happen.
Still, if jump is large like in my 45-70 BFR, the boolit surface needs to be harder to resist skid at rifling contact.
Now I had accuracy problems with air cooled WW metal in my .44. I annealed the gas checks and accuracy came back so there are a lot of little tricks.
But see how we forget things? I am shooting a 50-50 mix this season out of my 45-70 and get some fliers. I completely forgot about annealing the checks. :oops::oops:

[Three44s]

44man,

"A short pencil is better than a long memory" ........ but be it for me to go around preaching that because I need someone to ETCH it on my eye glasses so I don't forget it myself!

It sure would do no harm to load some boolits in magnum cases to test the jump theory.

Geargnasher,

I first bought a ball micrometer for checking for neck concentricity on (varmint caliber) brass.

123.DieselBenz,

You have Isso bore paste and that's good. I am no fan of steel or stainless steel wool or scrubbing pads in bores but a fair number of shooters do use FINE steel wool. Bret's reference is Four 0 ..... that means OOOO ....... a very fine wool. Yes, you would use a solvent, what you have on hand should certainly do because you can only float the lead chips and lead doesn't respond to hardly any chemical actions ....... physical presence of some liquid is all you're after.

But for a scrubbing pad ...... I like copper, you've got (in my opinion) a better bite on the lead and no risk, so long as it's really copper (use a magnet).

And whatever you use, I wrap a bit of that copper pad on a worn out undersize brush.

Copper jacket fouling would get drug out with the lead but nothing to count on. You'd have to clean traditionally for J-word deposits ...... and my suggestion is to lay off the J-words at least until you get your lead slugs "running on all eight cylinders" as it will simplify you re-cleaning and not muddy your boolit results.

Regards

Three 44s

[TAWILDCATT]

I dont understand some thing.2.7 of bullseye is a standard with HBWC and plain WC.I have shot them in my S&W10 for 30 yrs and only clean at end of season.
I cast with range lead or WW.and I also use them in a S&W 28.they dont do whats happening here.were those two guns new or used?if the ruger shoots good is it the ammo or the guns??
I use mikes to measure bullets and elec vernier to measure lenth.I have B&S,and others.Harbor freight seems to be the best at the best price.most tools are good quality now.even the chinese.

[44man]

I dont understand some thing.2.7 of bullseye is a standard with HBWC and plain WC.I have shot them in my S&W10 for 30 yrs and only clean at end of season.
I cast with range lead or WW.and I also use them in a S&W 28.they dont do whats happening here.were those two guns new or used?if the ruger shoots good is it the ammo or the guns??
I use mikes to measure bullets and elec vernier to measure lenth.I have B&S,and others.Harbor freight seems to be the best at the best price.most tools are good quality now.even the chinese.
Beats me! some guns will shoot anything while others will have lead packed in the bore and all over the outside of the gun too.
I sure wish I had the answer, I could write a book----the question is though, is there an answer?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I dont understand some thing.2.7 of bullseye is a standard with HBWC and plain WC.I have shot them in my S&W10 for 30 yrs and only clean at end of season.
I cast with range lead or WW.and I also use them in a S&W 28.they dont do whats happening here.were those two guns new or used?if the ruger shoots good is it the ammo or the guns??
I use mikes to measure bullets and elec vernier to measure lenth.I have B&S,and others.Harbor freight seems to be the best at the best price.most tools are good quality now.even the chinese.

Both double actions were bought used a few months ago (the ones I'm having trouble with!) The Security Six was reportedly "Only had less than two boxes shot through it since new" I supposedly bought it from the original owner off from gunbroker . . .

I got a couple of mic's . . . both outside, but one has cones that come down to a point, the other is about .25" diameter . . . what is the little knob on the end for? Is it used to "zero" it?

[Bret4207]

OK, I do remember seeing some outside micrometers at church a few months ago, (we have a printing press and need to maintain it ourselves) I'll swing by there this morning on my lunch hour.

I do see now that it is possible that I had fouling in the barrel when I slugged it which could also give me a false reading. THANX!

When you state "use 4/0 steel wool" I'm unclear as to what that means, please bear with me I'm trying to learn. Does this mean "between 4 & 0" or "0000" or is that actually a grade/coarseness? (I have some "Grade 0" in my shed)Yes, "0000" grade steel wool. It WILL NOT harm your barrel. It won;t ahrm the bluing on a fine rifle, so why would it hurt a barrel? Trust me. Use if wrapped on a worn bore brush with a little solveent to lube it.

When I use the steelwool do I put it on top of, or around my standard brass brush? or use a smaller diameter brush? (I also picked up what I believe is a stainless steel brush, but I'm hesitant to use it . . . should I be?) Do I use a solvent with steelwool, or oil?

Will the steelwool deal with the jacket fouling too, or do I need something different? You'll need a copper solvent for that.Can I see this jacket fouling? After I get done cleaning my guns now (Doing a better job, the last two times since I noticed the leading more & more) I look down the bore from the muzzle end, and see only clean bore, I then look at the forcing cone and that is clean (been taking me 45 - 60 min to clean!) It was only two times ago that I noticed the forcing cone & cylinder!

Start with a clean gun. That's #1. Then move onto the rest of it.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Where can I find a copper solvent? Could I get it at a hardware store? Gunshop? Specialty shop?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Ok I got the mic's and I figured out the knob on the end is a rachet . . .

But how do I read it? I went on line and am now more confused . . .

Here are some pictures:
This is with it closed all the way. Should it close more, or less? seems to not "zero"
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer001.jpg

This reading would you call it .1250"?
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer002.jpg

And here is with a recovered boolit:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer003.jpg

When I put it on a .025" feeler gauge it stopped at the first line, and the zero lined up with the top of the zero like this:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer.jpg

Is there some adjustment? or is it off by a bit? the other mic comes down to little points, so I don't think I can use it . . .

[badgeredd]

Ok I got the mic's and I figured out the knob on the end is a rachet . . .

But how do I read it? I went on line and am now more confused . . .

Here are some pictures:
This is with it closed all the way. Should it close more, or less? seems to not "zero"
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer001.jpg

It appears your sleeve (the tube with numbers etched on it) needs to be adjusted as it is reading .002" light.OOPS..me thinks .001' + light.

This reading would you call it .1250"? YES...plus the .001+" light reading.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer002.jpg

And here is with a recovered boolit:Thhe reading is approximately .3558" ...can't see the tenths markings, PLUS the .001" light for a total of .3568"
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer003.jpg

When I put it on a .025" feeler gauge it stopped at the first line, and the zero lined up with the top of the zero like this:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer.jpg

Is there some adjustment? or is it off by a bit? the other mic comes down to little points, so I don't think I can use it . . .

There should be a little hole on the barrel to use a mini spanner wrench in to adjust the barrel to read correctly.

Edd

[badgeredd]

MY bad.....After looking at the pics again, I think I may have stated something incorrectly. It kinda looks like you have 1/2 thousanths marks on the barrel. If so it looks like your adjustment is .001" light. Sorry about that.

Edd

[Edubya]

I can't explain it any easier than this site does:http://www.linnbenton.edu/auto/day/mike/read.html
Also, before using a mic, always clean the contact points.
EW
You have the vernier mic, a better page is: http://www.auto-met.com/mitutoyo/how_to_read_micrometers.htm

[KYCaster]

Shawn, getting consistant measurements with your micrometer requires a consistant "feel". It's something you have to figure out for yourself.

For instance, your first pic shows a problem. Either the mic is out of calibration or you've turned the thimble too tight. (refer to Edubya's first link) Close the thimble using the ratchet and it should read .0000.

Second pic... .1250 is correct, assuming the mic is calibrated correctly. Now look at the Vernier scale, the horizontal lines around the spindle, above the main scale, individually numbered 0 thru 9. The "0" should be lined up precisely with one of the lines on the thimble (doesn't matter which one)....that's your fourth decimal place. Open the thimble till the "1" lines up precisely with one of the lines on the thimble... that's .1251.

Third pic... looks like .355? Use the Vernier scale to get the fourth digit, but without verifing the calibration of the mic, I wouldn't have any confidence in the third digit.

Fourth pic... The zero mark on the thimble should line up with the horizontal line on the main scale. Looks like the same error as in your first pic. Here's where you can check your "feel". With the spindle closed on the feeler gauge you should be able to lock the spindle with the lever so that it will maintain that setting while you slide the feeler gauge out of the gap. If it doesn't slide freely then you're putting too much pressure on the thimble. It takes some practice to get consistant measurements.

Good luck
Jerry

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

OK, so we are talking the same language . . . this pic came from the website that EW linked too, THANX makes better sense now!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micpic.jpg

Here is a different angle with the mic I have:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Micrometer005.jpg

It appears that the sleeve is numbered 1-10 and each numbered line = .100" those are divided up into 4 sections each and = .025"
A full revolution of the thimble also = .025" and each small line on the thimble is = .0005
Then further up on the sleeve are numbered lines 0,1,2,3,4,0 (the photo blue is a typo, it should not have a "5", but rather a "4") which I assume are equal to .0001" by lining up the line with the one that is the closest to the one on the thimble. Do I have this right?

Is the adj whole as I have labeled it? Do I need a special wrench, or is there another way to adjust it? Is it that critical to adjust it, or can I just add the .0011 onto what it measures?

The ratchet feature does not seem to work, I hear/feel no clicks. If I set it at .010 and turn the ratchet knob, it does not turn the thimble . . .

[dsmjon]

In that pic, it appears that you're stacking 2 feeler gauges? I know, I know, dumb question ahead.... are you certain there is NO dirt/dust/cheeseburgers between the two?

What does it read when you run it down to 0.0000"?

As noted above, there is definitely a 'feel' to using these older mics. They can be VERY precise (overly precise for boolit diameter readings, IMO), and force exerted upon the thimble will vary your readings.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

In that pic, it appears that you're stacking 2 feeler gauges? I know, I know, dumb question ahead.... are you certain there is NO dirt/dust/cheeseburgers between the two?

What does it read when you run it down to 0.0000"?

As noted above, there is definitely a 'feel' to using these older mics. They can be VERY precise (overly precise for boolit diameter readings, IMO), and force exerted upon the thimble will vary your readings.

No that is one .025" feeler gauge.

If I set it at .0000 like you ask, there is a small gap I can see if I hold it up to the light.
If I snug it down, it is .0011 past or below .0000.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I spent 45 min last night with the 0000 steel wool & Hoppes #9 on the SP101 . . . clean now, my wife is gonna be looking for some copper solevent today . . . then I can reslug . . .

[44man]

There should be a way to adjust the thimble. I bought a Mitutoyo like a million years ago but never had to adjust it. It came with a spanner and instructions to turn the sleeve but I can't figure where to use the spanner unless a cap on the back comes off.
It has always read dead zero on the thimble and counter so I don't search any farther, I leave well enough alone! :mrgreen:
This thing will read a film of boolit lube that I can't see. Just sliding a piece of paper through it will return it to zero.
I have an even older (Even a cave man can do it type.) Millers Falls that only reads to the .001". It shows the thimble is on the spindle with a taper. The speeder nut needs to be loosened and tapped on a piece of wood to disengage the taper, then it can be turned to align the marks. The price on the box says $11.40. Even this old thing has never needed adjusting and still looks like new.
On the thimble is stamped all the readings for 1/64, 1/8's and 1/32's, very convenient.
Yeah, I am that old and hate the Geico ads, I just don't have any hair left so everyone thinks I am not a cave man! :drinks:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Sure is hard to get a picture of the inside of a barrel!

Here are my attempts! (I thought it was clean on the inside!)
Cylinder: Leading before throat . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning003.jpg

Forcing cone: There was lead on the frame I scraped off . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning007.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning009.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning022.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning023.jpg

Looking down the barrel:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning011.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning012.jpg

I believe that some of my problem was that I thought that I had cleaned it, when in fact there was still a bunch of leading in it! I did not even look at the forcing cone until two weekends ago![smilie=b:

I gotta get back to work, but will work at cleaning it some more tonight . . . :groner: The camera sure brings out what I missed!

[44man]

Holy ****, what a super camera! :drinks:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Holy ****, what a super camera! :drinks:

It really is just a cheapo $200 Canon A520 Powershot (4 years ago!) I took about 35 pictures to end up with those!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

This morning I spent at least another 45 min of actual cleaning!

1st I took a well used/worn out brass brush, pulled some 0000 steel wool and wrapped it around it, and dipped it in Hoppe's #9 Powder Solvent ran it in and out of the bore about 12-15 times, put on another thin layer of steel wool, repeat . . . repeat of above and ran it through all the chambers in the cylinder twisting it back and forth . . .twice!

2nd I stripped the steel wool off the brush, and put on fresh steel wool, and then put a thin layer of Iosso bore cleaner (claims to remove BOTH lead & copper!) on top of the steel wool ran that through the barrel 10 -12 times, wrap a little more steel wool, add more Iosso repeat, and repeat third time, then did the chambers . . .

3rd I took a dry cotton patch, and ran it through everything . . . then took another patch and dipped it in the Hoppe's and ran it through everything! ran about 4-5 more dry patches through . . .

4th I took a dry patch and applied M-Pro7 Copper Remover (www.MPro7.com) to patch, and ran it through everything 4-5 times each, let set for 10 min, and then used a brand new brass brush through everything about 10 times each, then about 5 dry patches!

Still doesn't seem clean to me!

What am I doing wrong?

Here are a bunch of pictures . . . Boy, that sun here in AZ sure is BRIGHT! The bore and chambers are alot cleaner than yesterdays attempt, but there seems to be tiny traces in the bottom "corners" of the riffling, and still some in the chambers . . .

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning040.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning041.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning044.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning033.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning034.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning035.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning028.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning030.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning031.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning045.jpg


I guess I'm getting better at this picture thing . . . only took 24 today to get these 12 "keepers"! (Last 2 in next post . . .)

Some of the pictures appear to have a coppery tint to them, at least the ones that is on the outside of the barrel I must say would be a reflection of my face . . .

Is it "normal" for the bore to be that "rough" with the streaks or lines?

Also don't understand how there could be dust or lint in there . . .

Think another 45 min will do it? Should I try something different?

Thanx

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Here they are:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning046.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning047.jpg

Thanx! [smilie=s:

[docone31]

That certainly is a good posting of what a barrel looks like.
You are going to have dust in the bore. No matter what. The machine marks in the barrel look ok. As long as they are going in the same direction, and twist as the casting. No bore, or barrel is going to be perfect.
The main thing is, is the bore parallel. On the cylinder, I am curious on the step. Seems to go outward a little. Might be me though.
Other than that, I do not even try to get that clean.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

That certainly is a good posting of what a barrel looks like.
You are going to have dust in the bore. No matter what. The machine marks in the barrel look ok. As long as they are going in the same direction, and twist as the casting. No bore, or barrel is going to be perfect.
The main thing is, is the bore parallel. On the cylinder, I am curious on the step. Seems to go outward a little. Might be me though.
Other than that, I do not even try to get that clean.

What do you mean by the "Step"? From the chamber to the throat?

Remember my HBWC are seated to the leading edge of the case mouth . . . there short!

[243winxb]

Great photos. Looks like what other have said. The forcing cone needs to be recut into the leade. Or
If you have a barrel/frame bore constriction, fire lap the barrel. Seems odd that you would have 2 guns with the same problem???

[badgeredd]

This morning I spent at least another 45 min of actual cleaning!

Still doesn't seem clean to me! All in all I think your gun is very clean with the exception of the chambers just in behind the throats.

What am I doing wrong? Perhaps you can find some COPPER Chore Girl or generic pads. Make sure they are indeed copper and not plated steel. Wrap some around a worn brush and twist them inside of the chambers. A GOOD penetrant like Kroil will really help you to loosen the lead and build up. I have found that a jag with a really tight fitting patch will usually get the last remnants of lead in the rifling.

Here are a bunch of pictures . . . Boy, that sun here in AZ sure is BRIGHT! The bore and chambers are alot cleaner than yesterdays attempt, but there seems to be tiny traces in the bottom "corners" of the riffling, and still some in the chambers . . . That really appears to be caused by shooting the 38s in a 357 chamber. That is the reason I mentioned using 38 Special loads in a 357 case.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning040.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning041.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/BarrelCleaning044.jpg

I guess I'm getting better at this picture thing . . . only took 24 today to get these 12 "keepers"! (Last 2 in next post . . .)

Some of the pictures appear to have a coppery tint to them, at least the ones that is on the outside of the barrel I must say would be a reflection of my face . . .

Is it "normal" for the bore to be that "rough" with the streaks or lines?

Also don't understand how there could be dust or lint in there . . .

Think another 45 min will do it? Should I try something different?

Thanx

All together it looks to me like you have a very clean gun. Maybe some Kroil left sitting in the chambers for 20-30 minutes will help get rid of the last bit. Same goes for the forcing cone. And the copper pads seem to dig into the lead and crud to help remove it. BTW...I speak through experience on the lead removal...my problem came from ill fitting hard cast boolits. Took me about 3 1/2 hours to get ALL of the lead out. NOW I know not to use those supper hard boolits with low velocity loads and to be sure of the fit. Keep at it...you'll get it for sure...judging from the great job of cleaning you.ve done.

Edd

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

All together it looks to me like you have a very clean gun. Maybe some Kroil left sitting in the chambers for 20-30 minutes will help get rid of the last bit. Same goes for the forcing cone. And the copper pads seem to dig into the lead and crud to help remove it. BTW...I speak through experience on the lead removal...my problem came from ill fitting hard cast boolits. Took me about 3 1/2 hours to get ALL of the lead out. NOW I know not to use those supper hard boolits with low velocity loads and to be sure of the fit. Keep at it...you'll get it for sure...judging from the great job of cleaning you.ve done.

Edd

My 1st lead boolits in both of these guns were reloads I bought, that were loaded with those same hard cast I bought from the guy in Tucson . . . that could have been the beginning, and I just added more to the problem!

They were hard enough that I could not scratch them with my finger nail, and when I did drive them through the barrel . . . they got squished down to .352 by my measurements, and the recovered range lead cast came out at .355 . . . so you can tell that they were really hard!

Maybe tomorrow I'll play with it some more . . .I just got done with an 11.5 hr day at school! Still got the Sec Six to clean out . . .

Also it may have some bearing on my cast boolits, they were "fresh" air seasoned for 2-3 days, so they were quite soft I guess . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Great photos. Looks like what other have said. The forcing cone needs to be recut into the leade. Or Seems odd that you would have 2 guns with the same problem???

Both guns are leading, but I just looked at my wifes Security Six, and it does not seem as bad as my SP101 . . .

These pictures are of the Security Six, after she "cleaned it" as in two weeks ago . . . before I got frustrated and fussy! Obviously she needs to work on better cleaning, but I figured it would be good to get a base line . . . If I remember correctly she used the lead away cloth over a brass brush, and then the Hoppe's . . . Does not seem to be getting as much in the forcing cone, but is splattering on the frame!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning008.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning004.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning013.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning014.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning015.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning016.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning007.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning011.jpg

Does not seem to be as bad in the cylinder either . . .

Now I need to get busy cleaning hers up!

[smilie=s:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Before I go and clean my wifes gun . . .

I wanted to say that I had a "brainy idea" when I woke up at 1 am! I took a 357 MAX case and belled it just a tad and with lots of thumb pressure pushed it into the chambers scraping out the lead!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/BarrelCleaning048.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/BarrelCleaning049.jpg

I then went back to the previous regiment of steelwool and Iosso paste . . . I figured it was clean now . . .I don't see any more lead, but still appears "dirty"
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/BarrelCleaning050.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/BarrelCleaning052.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/BarrelCleaning054.jpg

[runfiverun]

i would take some measurements and quit cleaning. if the cylinders are undersized you are gonna have problems.
the splatteirng looks from misaligned cylinder/bore.
and the girlfriends cyl throats look pretty rough.
i think you just need some polishing reaming and cutting done.
and maybe a bit of cylinder timing.
or just keep on shooting and let things work themselves out.
if the cylinders are sizing before the bbl does you will have leading.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

i would take some measurements and quit cleaning. if the cylinders are undersized you are gonna have problems.
the splatteirng looks from misaligned cylinder/bore.
and the girlfriends cyl throats look pretty rough.
i think you just need some polishing reaming and cutting done.
and maybe a bit of cylinder timing.
or just keep on shooting and let things work themselves out.
if the cylinders are sizing before the bbl does you will have leading.

Well I have stopped cleaning the SP101, but needed to get my WIFE'S (Not gf!) cleaned up.

Thanks for pointing out the roughness of her cylinder throats . . . I had not noticed that before . . .

Basically clean now . . . not perfect, but should be close enough to get measurements . . . also I noticed that the top strap is quite rough even when cleaned up!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning023.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning029.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning032.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning033.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/BarrelCleaning035.jpg

Now I'm gonna get me some lead to drive through them all!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

OK, I did it!

I tried to double check my measurements to confirm I was doing it right (you can't help me if I give you wrong info . . .) If I got a different number the second time, I measured it again, then crossed out the odd ball!

The riffled slugs I measured by turning them gently back and forth to get the high spots, and I hope that it is right! I feel that the measurement are at least consistent, I'm no machinist!

I added on the .0011" that the mic was off . . .

The numbers by the "barrel minus portion through frame" is how far down the barrel I drove the boolit, plus the actual length of the boolit, 1.464" in the SP101 & 2.279" in the Sec Six.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/SluggingResults019.jpg

[smilie=s:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I just the measured them all again, and I must say that the SP101 barrel (1st slug) full length should be slightly smaller at .3562 which would mean that the threaded portion is .0001 smaller than the rest of the barrel . . .should I try to "fire lap" it now . . .not sure what that means, gotta do some digging . . .

I probably should wait, but . . . I want to load up some ammo now and was gonna do a controlled test, as in fire 5 shots from one gun of one loading, recover boolits, record data (both size & photograph), load other gun with same loading as above, repeat data recovery

Clean guns, next load . . . and so on . . . I know it will take some time . . .

I don't have a lot of empty 357 brass, (Maybe 25-30) but I wanted to use that 1st (I only have Hornady HBWC 148gr) and load them up as 38 sp loads . . . I have read somewhere that I need to increase the powder by 10% to be the same as there is larger case volume . . . but have also heard that if you push the HBWC too fast they separate!

I have the following powders to choose from:
Hercules Bullseye (I also have Aliant)
Hercules Blue Dot (I also have Aliant)
WinchesterWestern 473AA
WinchesterWestern 452AA

Which would you recommend?

[Mavrick]

Just some "free thoughts" FWIW
I like to use brass cases with Special loads and nickel-plated with mag loads for identification.
"Range lead" tends to the soft side of WWs, as there are a lot of .22s and factory swaged boolits, which are "pert near" pure lead.
Really hard (over 20 Brinell) bullets tend NOT to obturate at lower pressures, so skid a little and lead-up a barrel.
Really soft (less than WW) lead-up a barrel when sent out fast, as with slow-powders and high pressures.
My low- and "mid-range" loads use WW+2%tin for velocities in the 850fps to 1000fps range. (I'm doing some more experiments with bigger lube/sizer dies now, so I'll be able to make more-informed judgements)
Bullseye is the most popular powder for short-range bullseye shooting because of consistent velocities. WW321, AA#2, and several others in the same burning-rate range are at least as good.
Mid-range powders such as Unique, and 800X will not "beat up" the bullet as bad, as they "push" the bullet, instead of "kicking" it, but the pressures tend to be less consistent, but that may be unimportant with "combat" shooting. (I like to shoot "falling plates" and bowling pins)
Hoppe's #9, which I've been using for a LOT of years, is mostly so I don't get run out of the house with a broom. It doesn't do much, but sure "smells GOOD." It's a pretty good powder solvent and it leaves some oil in the barrel when you're finished. If I need to CLEAN a barrel, I use Sweet's 7.62, Montana Extreme Kopper Killer, Shooter's Choice, or some EVIL-smelling solution, the follow up with oil or #9.
Have fun,
Gene

[243winxb]

38/357 Caliber Chamber Brush
Kleen Bore Stainless Steel 38/357 Caliber Chamber Brush. These brushes are sized properly to clean the cylinder chambers of a revolver. Helps remove carbon build up within the chambers for ease of loading and extraction. https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...ducts_id/23627 TIP: When done cleaning, rinse the brush in 91% Isopropyl Alcohol.

[243winxb]

the SP101 barrel (1st slug) full length should be slightly smaller at .3562 which would mean that the threaded portion is .0001 smaller than the rest of the barrel . . .should I try to "fire lap" it now The SP101 is smaller by about .001" Try a light load of Bullseye in the Security Six as it has good measurements. Load some of your cast sized to .3575" to .358" Lube well, see what happens. Then fire lap or polish out the SP101 if you think it needs to be larger. I would not shoot the Hornady WC in the SP101. Thats the bullet i seen lead a tight .354" barrel.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Just some "free thoughts" FWIW
I like to use brass cases with Special loads and nickel-plated with mag loads for identification.
"Range lead" tends to the soft side of WWs, as there are a lot of .22s and factory swaged boolits, which are "pert near" pure lead.
Really hard (over 20 Brinell) bullets tend NOT to obturate at lower pressures, so skid a little and lead-up a barrel.
Really soft (less than WW) lead-up a barrel when sent out fast, as with slow-powders and high pressures.
My low- and "mid-range" loads use WW+2%tin for velocities in the 850fps to 1000fps range. (I'm doing some more experiments with bigger lube/sizer dies now, so I'll be able to make more-informed judgements)
Bullseye is the most popular powder for short-range bullseye shooting because of consistent velocities. WW321, AA#2, and several others in the same burning-rate range are at least as good.
Mid-range powders such as Unique, and 800X will not "beat up" the bullet as bad, as they "push" the bullet, instead of "kicking" it, but the pressures tend to be less consistent, but that may be unimportant with "combat" shooting. (I like to shoot "falling plates" and bowling pins)
Hoppe's #9, which I've been using for a LOT of years, is mostly so I don't get run out of the house with a broom. It doesn't do much, but sure "smells GOOD." It's a pretty good powder solvent and it leaves some oil in the barrel when you're finished. If I need to CLEAN a barrel, I use Sweet's 7.62, Montana Extreme Kopper Killer, Shooter's Choice, or some EVIL-smelling solution, the follow up with oil or #9.
Have fun,
Gene


Gene,

My range lead is all scrounged by me, and it is all 99% jacketed, mostly 45's . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

The SP101 is smaller by about .001" Try a light load of Bullseye in the Security Six as it has good measurements. Load some of your cast sized to .3575" to .358" Lube well, see what happens. Then fire lap or polish out the SP101 if you think it needs to be larger. I would not shoot the Hornady WC in the SP101. Thats the bullet i seen lead a tight .354" barrel.

So . . . you don't think that the .0002 "restriction" where the barrel is threaded into the frame of the Security Six is a problem, and that the smaller overall size of the barrel on the SP101 is more of a problem?

My SP101 barrel is .3563" (but reduced to .3562 at the breach end)
I just measured the Hornady at .3572 + .0011 = 3583 with lube on it . . . shouldn't be too tight should it?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I used some rejects that I had thrown back into my pot to re-melt . . . but they were .3591 to start with.

Kinda hard to get them centered . . .

Security Six:
You can see the little shaving on my leg . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/SluggingResults006.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/SluggingResults011.jpg

Other side:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/SluggingResults012.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/SluggingResults009.jpg

Other side:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/SluggingResults017.jpg

SP101:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/SluggingResults013.jpg

Other side:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/SluggingResults014.jpg

Cylinders:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/SluggingResults010.jpg

Other side:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/SluggingResults016.jpg

[243winxb]

Here is what i think is happening. The TL bullet is oversize, bigger than the throats (.358") The bullet is being sided down/swaged in the cylinder throat. This removers the Xlox lube and fouls the cylinder. Now the bullet is stripped of all lube and hits the forcing cone leading it. What you need to do is SIZE YOUR BULLETS to .3575", but never bigger then .358" Then load some 38 specials, 3.0gr of Bullseye or less and give them a try. Thats all i got, out of ideas. [smilie=b: Good Luck

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Here is what i think is happening. The TL bullet is oversize, bigger than the throats (.358") The bullet is being sided down/swaged in the cylinder throat. This removers the Xlox lube and fouls the cylinder. Now the bullet is stripped of all lube and hits the forcing cone leading it. What you need to do is SIZE YOUR BULLETS to .3575", but never bigger then .358" Then load 3.0gr of Bullseye or less and give them a try. Thats all i got, out of ideas. [smilie=b: Good Luck

All makes sense, but . . . the pictures in post #99 (Wow!) shows that the lube grooves are present, there is a little bit of blue lube that melted off some of those HARD CAST SWC boolits I bought . . .

Could it be that other than the "restrictions" at the threads . . . that those extra hard bought boolits messed up the works, and everything else snowballed from there . . . I never shot those Hard Cast bought boolits through my Black Hawk . . . no problems with that one!

Obviouslly if I had the answer I wouldn't be tying up everybodys time . . . I am grateful for everybodys help and ideas, I'm just trying to understand this thing, and get it under control.
[smilie=s:

[243winxb]

Let us know what the fix is when you find it. :)

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

If I were to open up the throats all to .3585" with some fine sandpaper on a dowel . . . would that be too big? Or would .3590" be better?

Remember I had some leading in the chambers, mostly in the SP101 (which has the smallest throats) could that have been what was getting shaved off from the boolits?

I'm thinking I'll try some fire lapping too . . . to get the barrel better . . . I've been reading a lot this afternoon about fire lapping . . . my understanding, although it was not written . . . is that the idea of rolling the boolits between the steel is to embed the lapping gritty compound into the lead, not just fill the lube grooves, is this right?

Edited to add: If on the SP101 I went further than neccasary on the fire lapping, (past just taking the .0001" restriction out) would it just increase the bore diameter, but still keep the sharpness of the riffling? Lets say I "over did it" and it ended up at .3570" would that be too much? (as in the barrel would be ruined because of the riffling would be messed up? Or too shallow?)

[Lead pot]

From looking at your photo's I see that your cylinder is out of time.
There is not a true alignment with the barrel when the cylinder locks up judging from the lead packed under the top strap and the front of the frame.
You can check this out by using a sharp edged wood dowel rod or plastic that fits tight to the bore and push it through. advance the cylinder with out turning it with your fingers, just by pulling the trigger or advancing it single action,
I'm guessing that I don't have to tell you to do this unloaded.
Chances are the rods sharp edge will catch on front side of the cylinder face.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

From looking at your photo's I see that your cylinder is out of time.
There is not a true alignment with the barrel when the cylinder locks up judging from the lead packed under the top strap and the front of the frame.
You can check this out by using a sharp edged wood dowel rod or plastic that fits tight to the bore and push it through. advance the cylinder with out turning it with your fingers, just by pulling the trigger or advancing it single action,
I'm guessing that I don't have to tell you to do this unloaded.
Chances are the rods sharp edge will catch on front side of the cylinder face.

I'm assuming you are talking about the Security Six?

Please explain further, I'm a little dense . . . you want me to take a wooden dowel and put it down the barrel from the muzzle end, but push it into the cylinder, right, but . . . then I'm to pull the hammer back which will cause the cylinder to rotate, what am I looking for, gonna be kinda tough to sheer off that dowel too, ain't it? What did I miss?

On another interesting note . . . here are the results from my copper cleaning . . . on the Leftt is from the SP101, and the Right from the Security Six . . .maybe it was not shot much . . . the trigger was real rough too!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/CopperSolevent004.jpg

[Lead pot]

If the dowel goes into the cylinder you must pull it back enough so it clears the cylinder before rotating to the next chamber.

If the dowel catches on the front of the cylinder it is not inline with the barrel throat

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

If the dowel goes into the cylinder you must pull it back enough so it clears the cylinder before rotating to the next chamber.

If the dowel catches on the front of the cylinder it is not aniline with the barrel throat

Duh! Over dinner I figured it out, just a tad slow . . . I wind down in the evening! Thanks for clearing that up for me!

I have some .5" wooden dowel I can cut to 7" and chuck it in my drill, and sand it down to fit . . . sounds like another project for tomorrow . . .

If it is out of time . . . it that because of the cylinder latch is worn or bent, or is it more than that?

[Three44s]

If I had more than five minutes invested in getting the lead out with copper chore boy ..... I thought I had spent an eternity.

It's fast ...... and it is copper so it's WILL NOT SCRATCH.

The fouling rings in your chambers need to be removed as well.

For cylinders, I like a solid cleaning rod ...... a fixed handle. I used my best lead removing repitoire and rotate the handle. This eliminates the blind spot you are missing right behind the throats.

The leading on the front of your frames is ALARMING ........... whatever is causing it must be eliminated before you'll get any peace shooting boolits.

The lead you are getting from jacketed .45 acp slugs (I am quite sure) is going to be too soft for booits.

Three 44s

[462]

123DieselBenz,

The small, top photo in post 88 shows the cylinder out of alignment, though it may be due to the angle of the shot.

Another way to check for cylinder alignment is to shine a bright light in the gap between the rear of the cylinder and the recoil plate, then look down the barrel. If the cylinder is aligned properly, you will not be able to see any of the cylinder, just a straight shot through the barrel and chamber on back the firing pin and recoil plate. Perform the check on all the cylinders. If you see any part of the face of the cylinder (as in post 88) it's out of alignment and lead will be sheared from the boolit as it leaves the chamber and enters the forcing cone. A gunsmith fix, that.

That may be the reason why the previous owner sold the gun.

The top strap, on the Security Six, is rough, but I think that is a Ruger trademark. The cut directly above the forcing cone is normal and nothing to be concerned about. Some call it gas cutting, others flame cutting. It will get only so deep and stay at that depth.

I think you need to concentrate on one gun at a time, and one remedy at a time, asa well. You will probably discover that one size doesn't fit both guns and will have to have two different sized boolits.

Good luck.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

123DieselBenz,

The small, top photo in post 88 shows the cylinder out of alignment, though it may be due to the angle of the shot.

Another way to check for cylinder alignment is to shine a bright light in the gap between the rear of the cylinder and the recoil plate, then look down the barrel. If the cylinder is aligned properly, you will not be able to see any of the cylinder, just a straight shot through the barrel and chamber on back the firing pin and recoil plate. Perform the check on all the cylinders. If you see any part of the face of the cylinder (as in post 88) it's out of alignment and lead will be sheared from the boolit as it leaves the chamber and enters the forcing cone. A gunsmith fix, that.

That may be the reason why the previous owner sold the gun.

The top strap, on the Security Six, is rough, but I think that is a Ruger trademark. The cut directly above the forcing cone is normal and nothing to be concerned about. Some call it gas cutting, others flame cutting. It will get only so deep and stay at that depth.

I think you need to concentrate on one gun at a time, and one remedy at a time, asa well. You will probably discover that one size doesn't fit both guns and will have to have two different sized boolits.

Good luck.


The cylinder in the picture you talking about is swung out . . . it is not in the picture, that is the back of the gun . . .

I'll try the light trick too . . .

Decided to take some pic's . . . hard to get centered . . . have a look:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Timing001.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Timing002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Timing005.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Timing006.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

If I had more than five minutes invested in getting the lead out with copper chore boy ..... I thought I had spent an eternity.

It's fast ...... and it is copper so it's WILL NOT SCRATCH.

The fouling rings in your chambers need to be removed as well.

For cylinders, I like a solid cleaning rod ...... a fixed handle. I used my best lead removing repitoire and rotate the handle. This eliminates the blind spot you are missing right behind the throats.

The leading on the front of your frames is ALARMING ........... whatever is causing it must be eliminated before you'll get any peace shooting boolits.

The lead you are getting from jacketed .45 acp slugs (I am quite sure) is going to be too soft for booits.

Three 44s

Could the leading in both the cyl & on the frame be from shooting big boolits, through a tight throat?

I was mixing the range lead with wheel weights 50/50 . . . these were air cooled, but not seasoned for long (2-3 days) when I get my mold back should I use all ww? Or drop them in water? I just got a RCBS 82030 150gr WCDE, but I still need handles for it . . .

[44man]

Don't worry about fire lapping, the grit quits working as it goes down the bore. Once the restriction is gone, the rest of the barrel will be OK and if you go a little too far, you will only have an extremely tiny taper and that is not bad, it is good.
You just need to clean and slug often as you go until you don't feel the restriction anymore.
Ruger barrels are TOUGH and take more lapping rounds then some others. Just go slow, shoot 12 and check, then 12 more. No telling when you will get there. Hopefully it will also remove the roughness in the forcing cone too.
Clean the gun and cylinder good after each 6 shots.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

When I was awake at 3am, I was wondering if some of the lead on the topstrap of the Security six was maybe getting shredded off from the rough throats . . .?

When I checked the light behind the cyl trick, it looked good to me . . . pictures were hard to get evenly lined up.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I just got done making a wooden dowel the right size, I chucked it in my drill, then ran it against my bench grinder till it got down to about .390, then clamped down a piece of 220 grit sand paper, and ran it down till it would fit into the barrel!

I could feel the "restriction" just before it went into the cylinder, (It just snugged up on the wood) but did not hit the cylinder, did it to both guns, a tad tighter on the SP101, but I still was able to get it through OK.

Also last night I checked the cylinder to barrel clearance and I could just barely get a .006" feeler gauge in there on both of them . . .I was hoping it would be tighter . . .

[smilie=s:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Well, I took an old inner tube and wrapped the cylinder in it and clamped it upright in a vise (not tight!) I rigged up a dowel which was smaller than the cylinder, and cut a notch in the end, taped on some electrical tape to use as a bushing to keep it fairly straight . . . put some 220 grit sand paper in it, and spun the drill a little (very little!) I then tested it with a boolit that measured .3580 and when it would just about fall through on its own weight, but not quite I would go to the next chamber/throat. . . I then got some 600 grit paper and did the same, but even less use of the drill, maybe 20 revolutions! (really probably don't need the drill for the little I took out of this!)

Looks alot smoother too!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Cylinderhoning003.jpg

I then took the old slugs from yesterdays slugfest, and put them on the cement and whacked it with a framing hammer, don't need to hit them very hard, and only once! I fattened them up from .361 - .365, the .365 go through hard! Look at the difference . . . the ones in the back are the original slugs . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Cylinderhoningre-slugging002.jpg

New slugging results! (not perfect, but close enough![smilie=w:)
I should have crossed out the "old measurements" on cyl #4,5,6, the new are obviously on the right!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Cylinderhoningre-slugging003.jpg

The dowel on the side is what I made to check cylinder timing, I'll keep it to give me an idea when I'm fire lapping, if I can still feel the bulge.

Now I gotta do the SP101

[smilie=s:

[Mavrick]

Benz- I was afraid of that. I was hoping that someone had been shooting hard-cast or commercial-cast. Factory J-word bullets are "pert-near" pure lead because it's easier to swage, and besides, it's protected by copper alloy. So...once you melt the cores out, it's probably pure. Then...a 50/50 mix of WWs, which is about 96 3/4% lead, 1/4%tin and 3% antimony(the old mix-probably less antimony and more "other stuff" now) will bring it below 1 1/2% antimony. The tin is the catalyst to get antimony and lead to mix. As you can see there wouldn't be enough tin to get it to alloy. Much of it would be gone when you scooped the J-words if you didn't flux first, which you probably wouldn't because you weren't thinking about it. The flux, no matter what you used, would cost more than the tin is worth!
I used, for that velocity-range, an addition of 2% tin to WW. This may be even more important for a TL boolit because of the small grooves. I use it for better filling.
I bought some pulverized antimony a "while" back, so I can harden the alloy if I want to.
What I would do, FWIW, is cast of WW and water-quench. (Actually I wouldn't as I'm gunshy because of something that happened a "few" years ago. Plenty of others do, tho' so it's, at least, another option)
Lyman #2 is 5%tin and 5%antimony so you can go from there.
Have fun,
Gene

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Benz- I was afraid of that. I was hoping that someone had been shooting hard-cast or commercial-cast. Factory J-word bullets are "pert-near" pure lead because it's easier to swage, and besides, it's protected by copper alloy. So...once you melt the cores out, it's probably pure. Then...a 50/50 mix of WWs, which is about 96 3/4% lead, 1/4%tin and 3% antimony(the old mix-probably less antimony and more "other stuff" now) will bring it below 1 1/2% antimony. The tin is the catalyst to get antimony and lead to mix. As you can see there wouldn't be enough tin to get it to alloy. Much of it would be gone when you scooped the J-words if you didn't flux first, which you probably wouldn't because you weren't thinking about it. The flux, no matter what you used, would cost more than the tin is worth!
I used, for that velocity-range, an addition of 2% tin to WW. This may be even more important for a TL boolit because of the small grooves. I use it for better filling.
I bought some pulverized antimony a "while" back, so I can harden the alloy if I want to.
What I would do, FWIW, is cast of WW and water-quench. (Actually I wouldn't as I'm gunshy because of something that happened a "few" years ago. Plenty of others do, tho' so it's, at least, another option)
Lyman #2 is 5%tin and 5%antimony so you can go from there.
Have fun,
Gene


So . . . your saying I should lay off the range lead for now . . . and add some tin to my wheel weights, I have not smelted down everything I have . . . I did put some straight range lead away for my cap & ball . . . I do have about 350 158gr HARD cast that I recovered in my trap . . . I could add that in . . .

I messed up my SP101 cylinder . . . I accidentally picked up the wrong boolit to use as a guide, and wondered why it was taking so much sanding to get it up to size . . . I knew that the SP101 throats were small, but . . . anyhow, can't change it now . . . I have one throat that is .3611! The rest look OK!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Cylinderhoningre-slugging.jpg

Edit to add: Measure twice, cut once . . .or is it cut twice, still short!

[Mavrick]

No reason to not use the range lead, except that you're using a C&B and it's hard enough to get pure lead.
You can add the hard-cast to your WWs, but you'll STILL need to add at least tin; antimony, if you can get it.
This kind of casting is definitely advanced- only FUN if you're serious. I'd try WWs and go from there.
Have fun,
Gene

[Bret4207]

Shawn- STOP with the sand paper before you ruin the guns! You need to go back to the basics and fit the boolit to the gun. You're already dealing with a tight barrel, now you have near oversize cylinder throats. IF you have a barrel restriction firelapping can take care of it. But before I did anything else I'd be taking the guns out and putting some nice mild loads through them to see how they shoot.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Shawn- STOP with the sand paper before you ruin the guns! You need to go back to the basics and fit the boolit to the gun. You're already dealing with a tight barrel, now you have near oversize cylinder throats. IF you have a barrel restriction firelapping can take care of it. But before I did anything else I'd be taking the guns out and putting some nice mild loads through them to see how they shoot.

Yeah . . .I realize I over did it on one chamber . . . I am working on fire lapping now . . . I 1st used some Napa Valve grinding compound, thats kinda rough . . . Only ran 6 rounds of that through each, loaded with 1gr of Bullseye, then cleaned and slugged, no change, but the forcing cones were quite roughed up! (Slug flew about 100 yards . . .)

I then rolled the boolits in Olive Oil & Baking Soda, loaded up and shot 12 round in each gun of .7gr Bullseye, and I cleaned the guns at 6 rounds, all but 3 I had to drive out of the barrel, as they would get stuck about 1" from the muzzle . . . Smoothed up the roughness from the Napa stuff . . . but still have the "restriction" I then re did the above but with .8gr Bullseye, and most of them flew out the barrel up to 100', had to only pull 2 out! Smoothed up more, but still the restriction . . . I did not see any leading before cleaning, as I blew through the barrel and removed the powder, but I used some Copper ChoreBoy on a old brass brush, and ran it through any ways . . .

I think maybe I'll take you suggestion and just load up some HBWC with 2.7 gr Bullseye in 357 mag cases and see what happens!

[243winxb]

Shawn, how about an update, do the guns shoot better now?

[Three44s]

Good to hear you've got some Copper Chore Boy around now. It will save you tons of time.

Bad on oversizing one chamber ....... very bad.

Fifteen bucks to Beartooth Bullets for their excellent book would have grounded you better in the mechanics of bullet fitament and you likely would not be facing a trip to the Ruger factory.

And for range rods, the best around are from Iowegan over at the Ruger dot net forum.

Three 44s

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Shawn, how about an update, do the guns shoot better now?

In short no, as I'm still getting leading.

I'm sorry I have been off for so long . . . I got the flue from my bus kids at school . . . spent two weeks in bed . . . then I had to get my car ready for a 1000+ mi trip to take some Bibles up to Taos, NM that we printed for a new church we were helping get started . . . then got back in time to get sick again!

Here are some pictures:
First is the SP101, I noted #1 cyl as that is the one chamber I screwed up . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/RecoveredTest1001.jpg

Recovered Boolits:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/RecoveredTest1002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/RecoveredTest1004.jpg

The back side of the first round . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/RecoveredTest1005.jpg

Security Six:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/RecoveredTest1002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/RecoveredTest1003.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/RecoveredTest1005a.jpg

Strange . . .fairly certian I would have seen this when I pulled it out of the box, but . . . maybe not . . . what do you think?
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/RecoveredTest1005.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/RecoveredTest1006.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/RecoveredTest1008.jpg

[geargnasher]

Sounds like a rough time! Glad you're feeling better.

Nice pics, I don't see any significant gas-cutting, but you say you're still getting leading. The accuracy is terrible for what you should be getting. I just shot 10 into a ragged hole from a Weaver stance at 10 yards this afternoon with a GP 100 and .38 brass with 358664/ww/FWFL/3.5 grains Titegroup sized .358 for a .357 groove/.358 cylinder throat (I reamed it recently). I did get a hint of lead at the top groove for the first 1/2" or so, but the cylinder alignment/barrel restriction is probably causing that. I'm not saying I'm a crack shot, I certainly am not, but the gun shoots straight and yours should too.

That "cracked" boolit probably had an inclusion just under the surface (I know they are swaged, but "voids" are still possible) and you wouldn't have seen it during loading. It has a nice flame cut to it now, but looked like it sealed up and didn't blow any gas past the base of the void.

How about some more pics of that leading?

Gear

[runfiverun]

after loking at those pictures i'd try bumping the load up some 3.0 and 3.2.
i am seeing poor rifling engagement and i am not seeing rifling marks to the base of your boolit.
in short your boolit is not bumping up and filling anything.
you could also try tumble lubing in lla and trying the loads again.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Sounds like a rough time! Glad you're feeling better.

Nice pics, I don't see any significant gas-cutting, but you say you're still getting leading. The accuracy is terrible for what you should be getting. I just shot 10 into a ragged hole from a Weaver stance at 10 yards this afternoon with a GP 100 and .38 brass with 358664/ww/FWFL/3.5 grains Titegroup sized .358 for a .357 groove/.358 cylinder throat (I reamed it recently). I did get a hint of lead at the top groove for the first 1/2" or so, but the cylinder alignment/barrel restriction is probably causing that. I'm not saying I'm a crack shot, I certainly am not, but the gun shoots straight and yours should too.

That "cracked" boolit probably had an inclusion just under the surface (I know they are swaged, but "voids" are still possible) and you wouldn't have seen it during loading. It has a nice flame cut to it now, but looked like it sealed up and didn't blow any gas past the base of the void.

How about some more pics of that leading?

Gear


I get sick most of the "flue season" as I'm a bus driver for our elementary school, and it just gets past around all winter!

Here are some leading pictures, the Security six is not as bad, not sure if it is the rougher forcing cone area that is scraping off some lead, and then it gets dragged down the barrel, I don't even know if that is possible, but it seems to me that it could be . . . this is from 11 rounds in the Security Six, and 12 rounds in the SP101.

Maybe I need to go back to firelapping with the mild baking soda & olive oil, and smooth it up some more . . . what do you think?

Security six:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Leading10-27001.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Leading10-27002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Leading10-27004.jpg

SP101:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leading10-27001.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leading10-27002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leading10-27008.jpg

These were all loaded w/357 mag brass . . . so maybe I should bump up the powder more . . .

Hopefully this afternoon, I can melt down some wheel weights, and cast some of my own . . . I did get my Lee TL358 158SWC mold back, and I also got a RCBS 82030 38-148-WCDE that has been sitting around for the last month . . . I haven't even been out and shot once in the last month

I also am not the best shot . . . I'm not unhappy with my groups . . . as the guns are for self defense, and any body within 10 yards is gonna go down with that shot placement, but If I can get this leading eliminated, then I can work on better marksmanship!

[Wally]

I get sick most of the "flue season" as I'm a bus driver for our elementary school, and it just gets past around all winter!

Here are some leading pictures, the Security six is not as bad, not sure if it is the rougher forcing cone area that is scraping off some lead, and then it gets dragged down the barrel, I don't even know if that is possible, but it seems to me that it could be . . . this is from 11 rounds in the Security Six, and 12 rounds in the SP101.

Maybe I need to go back to firelapping with the mild baking soda & olive oil, and smooth it up some more . . . what do you think?

Security six:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Leading10-27001.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Leading10-27002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Leading10-27004.jpg

SP101:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leading10-27001.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leading10-27002.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leading10-27008.jpg

These were all loaded w/357 mag brass . . . so maybe I should bump up the powder more . . .

Hopefully this afternoon, I can melt down some wheel weights, and cast some of my own . . . I did get my Lee TL358 158SWC mold back, and I also got a RCBS 82030 38-148-WCDE that has been sitting around for the last month . . . I haven't even been out and shot once in the last month

I also am not the best shot . . . I'm not unhappy with my groups . . . as the guns are for self defense, and any body within 10 yards is gonna go down with that shot placement, but If I can get this leading eliminated, then I can work on better marksmanship!

My Ruger SS Blackhawk leads up terribly---but it is accurate. This month I loaded up some 158 SWC GC bullets using Freechex Aluminum gas checks---accuracy was superb and no leading at all..I mean none. I was shooting at 1,300 FPS. From now on I will use GC bullets with it and enjoy the ride.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

My Ruger SS Blackhawk leads up terribly---but it is accurate. This month I loaded up some 158 SWC GC bullets using Freechex Aluminum gas checks---accuracy was superb and no leading at all..I mean none. I was shooting at 1,300 FPS. From now on I will use GC bullets with it and enjoy the ride.

By Blackhawk is not leading (I have the same as yours) but these 38 sp I'm not pushing them fast enough to need gas checks, I think. I don't have a chrony so I don't really know how fast, or slow they are going . . . acording to my books, they should be around 700-750fps.

Also of interest the base of the above boolits (where they are hollow inside) is only about .354X!

I just cleaned out the lead from them this morning. Cleaned out of the leading they look like this:
Security Six:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Security%20Six/Leading10-27cleaned.jpg

SP101:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leading10-27cleaned.jpg

Just as a reference to my poor marksmanship . . . not that I'm proud, but I need to face reality, and you have a better idea how I shoot . . . I use to be much better 20+ years ago, but have not shot much in those 20 years, and just started to get back into it . . .

Here is a target I shot using my Rem 700BDL 24" barrel w/3X9 scope @9X standing, using factory ammo, I have put less than 2 full boxes of ammo through this gun since I bought it new 10 years ago:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/270Targets001.jpg

These were three round groups, the first I market with a vertical line, the last are unmarked, I know I flinched some near the end, as my shoulder was getting sore!

[smilie=s:

[testhop]

Unfortunately I just bought a 4 pound jug of Bullseye . . . still working on my last pound container . . . don't use much . . . one of the reasons I like it, and it worked OK in my BH. Even though it is dirty:lol:

IF you were to choose between the following powders which would you say is the cleaner:
Red Dot
Unique
Win 231
The above are listed in my Hornady load manual

What is the cleanest burning fast burning powder that would work in these loads (cast 158 gr swc)

Edit to add:
I just saw in my 1988 Speers book that I have load info using the following powders:
Blue Dot
473AA
452AA

Which I already have for other loads, I'll give then a try once I get my mould back, but will try a few with my Hornady 148gr HBWC's . . .

Both of my load manuals are 20+ years old . . .

the452aa is a longtime discontued powder you may find imposaable to get
i used to load with it in 38s and it was a very good load(forgot what load was )
i heard that 452 was touthey was the reason it was droped.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I've got about 2 pounds of the stuff . . . used for my 12 ga . . . quite awhile ago . . . same w/473AA. . . at least it is anther option to try . . .

What is meant by "touthey"?

[KYCaster]

452AA burns faster as the temp gets lower....just bass akwards from what you'd expect. Wasn't enough to cause over pressure problems but back way back when it was the darling of the IPSC crowd it got cursed a lot at the chronograph.

When Win. introduced WST and WSF they dropped the 452AA. Very soon after that Hodgdon picked it up and packaged it as Titegroup...same stuff different package.

Jerry

[pls1911]

Regarding lead prevention or reduction...
After assuring bores have had at least 200 rounds "j"bullets through them and Thoroughly cleaned, I have gone to regular treating and cleaning bores with Ed's Red (equal parts Dexron 2 ATC, acetone, mineral spirits, and kerosene) with a extra equal part Marvel Mystery Oil...
I'm 58 and have tried about everything on the market over the years, and this mix used religiuosly, combined with normal good cast boolit practices has eliminated leading in every sin gle piece of hardware i own.
See my post in the Hunting with cast boolit section "short story" this past weekend.
that 1948 marlin was only cleaned the week before with the mix, grabbed at the last minute because it was handy, went to war with pigs fast and furious... without any dry patching or other preshoot prep...
When cleaned afterward, only a little grey powder residue was noted on the new white mop ( well, pink due to the Ed's Red...)... the bore looked s clean as when I started , and was set for storage until next week...

The same story can be told about everything from .38's to .416s and 35/70s... it's great stuff!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Have not tried Ed's Red yet, sounds interesting . . . Extra equal part of MMO, does that mean 1 tsp atf, 1 tsp acetone, 1 tsp mineral spirits, 1 tsp kerosene, and 2 tsp mmo?

Two Sundays ago I cast up a bunch of boolits using my Lee TL358-158 SWC mold, about half I air cooled (55 ish degrees) the others I dropped into a bucket of cool water

I loaded them up in groups of 10 per powder, and had 12 samples, (which were all tumble lubed with xlox twice, and loaded into 357 mag cases, except for one load w/T-17 lube on it extra which I'll explain when I get that far along!) plus I took 10 commercial 357 mag reloads advertised as "Hard Cast" for a total of 13 "samples.

I first shot 10 more rounds coated with Xlox (X2) and then rolled in Baking Soda with 1.2 gr Bullseye . . . then cleaned.

Since I over did my #1 cylinder, I have been keeping track of where it shoots, does not seem to make much difference either . . . I also marked the first 5 shots with a red sharpie . . .

I don't have a real range to go to, but there is a gravel pit about 4 mi from my house . . . so I packed up a table, and my laptop to keep track my pictures per load, and cleaned the gun between each load type.

Here is what happened . . .

Edit to add: "AC" = Air Cooled & "WQ" = Water Quenched this is listed under the "Bullet Wt" I shot the AC's first.

First round:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck002.jpg

This is the only load that I aimed "low" . . . the rest I aimed at the top of the outside ring.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck003.jpg

Before cleaning:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck005.jpg

Least amount of leading:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck007.jpg

Unfortunately I did not get any good pictures of the leading in the barrel, but it was less than all the other rounds!

In order to keep everything straight, I will need to make multiple post, one for each round.;)

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

After I got the gun cleaned and info recorded (I spent from 8:15 am to 2:45 doing all of this)

I shot my next load, this was smoky and dirty I decided to photograph the gun with the target trying to record how dirty the gun got . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001.jpg

Before cleaning, chunks of powder:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck002-1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck012.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck013.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck014.jpg

I took lots of pictures, but viewing them on my laptop was dificult out in the bright sun . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next up:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-1.jpg

Dirty before cleaning:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck002-2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck004.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck005-1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck006.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck007-1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck.jpg

Shaving I scraped out with Copper Chore Boy!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck008.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck003-1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck007-2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck008-1.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-3.jpg

Before cleaning:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck003-2.jpg

Only picture that was clear, alittle worse leading than previous load, but less smoky . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck006-1.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-4.jpg

A little more leading with these WQ'ed ones over the softer AC's . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck007-3.jpg

Just a smidge on the entry to the forcing cone:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck008-2.jpg

And a little bit down in side . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck009.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck011.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-5.jpg

Before cleaning:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck002-3.jpg

Lead:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck012-1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck014-1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck006-2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck007-4.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-6.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck006-3.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck007-5.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck005-2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck003-3.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-7.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck002-4.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck003-4.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck006-4.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck009-1.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Next:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-8.jpg

Not sure why I lost one here and there . . .

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck003-5.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck004-3.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck008-3.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I have a friend who sugested I try some "Bore butter" for lube, he picked up the "modernized version" T-17 and since I already had loobed my boolits, I just added it on top of the rest!

These are the ones loaded into 38 sp cases, and are other wise the same as the previous load.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck001-9.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck007-7.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Last of the bunch!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20SP101/Leadcheck-1.jpg

I forgot to take pictures of the leading, it was about the same as the 3.8gr load . . .

In conclusion some powders caused less leading with Blue Dot doing the best job, but still leading. The Water Quenched seemed to have equal or worse groups than the Air cooled, and WQ leaded a bit more . . .

Should I be worried about this amount of leading?

Should I fire lap a tad more . . .

All of the above boolits were 100% wheel weights (except for the one load that I bought)

I also had my Blackhawk with me, but I did not load any for it, but . . . I found some factory loaded 125gr jhp 38sp+p's in the car . . . so I gave it a try . . . not excellent:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Leadcheck.jpg