Cast Bullet Specific Custom 8mm Cartridge in SKS Shortened and Necked up 7.62x39 [Archive]

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tommygirlMT

10-17-2009, 11:38 PM

jdgabbard

10-18-2009, 05:54 AM

I think the AK is a lot easier to clean. I own multiple models of both the SKS and the AK. The Ak is easier and quicker to clean. And the SKS does get plugged up quicker. The AK is more forgiving when it comes to that. And as for rebarreling a SKS. You'd have a much easier time with the AK. People have been doing caliber conversions on the AK for quite some time now. And they really haven't done many if any for the SKS. People are even converting the AKs to pistol calibers and building sub guns on Form 1s.

I like the idea, I just think you should reconsider your platform. You might consider checking out Gunco, their are lots of guys over there that have done some amazing things. I'm talking home built belt guns with parts from AKs, SKS, and Metal from the Hardware store. And I'm serious when I say they've done this and made it look professional.

My .02

Leftoverdj

10-18-2009, 08:13 AM

7.62 x39 is pretty cast bullet friendly as is.

Bret4207

10-18-2009, 08:41 AM

Define "survival"? TEOTWAWKI? Civil unrest? Hoards of MZB's overrunning you AO as you do your John Rourke impression with a dash of Rambo thrown in? This has been tossed around here before. Lets see what this version produces.

To the specifics- what do you think an 8mm will do that a .312 won't? Any change in the shoulder/neck could lead to feeding issues. Have at it if you wish, but where will you get the jacketed bullets to fill your hi-cap mags with? You'll be strictly a handloading proposition, and that means you'll need a large supply of once fired brass to reform into the 5K rounds you'll need to fill those mags, even more if you modify to a beltfeduberrifle.

mike in co

10-18-2009, 08:47 AM

advantages of the sks over the ak are a heavier bbl and a longer sight radius. i like 'em. the dis-advantage is the fixed magazine. they made a removable mag sks...but it only came in a short bbl...dang.( and no i do not like the aftermarket mag stuff for the sks...unless some can show me that they actually work now ???.....the tapco stuff maybe ??)

mike in co

Pat I.

10-18-2009, 08:51 AM

Bolt guns have been proven more than combat capable and the 7.62x39 is pretty cast bullet friendly round. I understand the reasoning behind building something that's diferent from everything else out there but for the money you'd invest in something like this you could build yourself a pretty tricked out Scout Rifle in 7.62x39.

Bloodman14

10-18-2009, 10:03 AM

I think I'd rethink this one, too. You are talking CUSTOM chambering reamers, barrel work )for the gas assembly) etc. What about the legal issues? you are 'manufacturing' a firearm.
Mike in Co, SUPER DOUBLE ++++++++++A1 on the Tapco stuff!!!

RU shooter

10-18-2009, 11:10 AM

If your mainly worried about the gas system issues whats the matter with a Cetme or G3 There is no gas system to foul! They are alreay in a "combat" chambering with decent sights and cheap mags.

Tim

StarMetal

10-18-2009, 12:18 PM

Doing all the accuracy mods and reloading tricks I put over 3000 cast rounds through my Yugo SKS. No, not at one setting. What I'm getting after is the SKS plugging up...huh??????? I don't think so and how is the SKS slower or harder to clean then the AK? They both strip down plenty fast. No my gas system never plugged up and in fact the rifle shot pretty clean with cast and the barrel stayed in good condition never leading up. I think the SKS is a great rifle.

Joe

Lead Fred

10-18-2009, 12:23 PM

kawalekm

10-18-2009, 12:27 PM

I'd suggest that for a SHTF or survival weapon, the very last thing you would want is a custom wildcat that nobody else has ever heard of. You're much better off sticking with a standardized caliber, even if it is foreign.

Before giving up, I'd suggest trying a stock 7.62X39 with Lyman's 311410 bullet. It's a 130 grain round nose that feeds well in an autoloader. It's plain base so you don't have to worry about gas checks and it can be easily sized to .311", so why re-invent the wheel.

By the way, back in the late 70's someone already created a 7.62X39 wildcat in .35 caliber. I think it was on the cover of gun digest or something like that. I tried searching for that post but didn't find it. I'd think it would be better to build on someone else's work rather than spending a lot of money on something that might give you mediocre performance.
Good luck,
Michael

JIMinPHX

10-18-2009, 01:17 PM

The Harris design boolits that already exist for the 7.62 x 39 are very good just the way they are. If you want to go up to 8mm in a short rifle cartridge, then look up 8mm Kurz. It's actually the forerunner the the 7.62 x 39.

mpmarty

10-18-2009, 03:34 PM

Already been there, done that yada yada yada.
My SHTF goto rifle is a fully 922 compliant Saiga conversion in 7.62X51 NATO.
It shoots cast just fine and a bent coat hanger clears gas port if it ever plugs (never has yet in hundreds of rounds of cast). I stocked up on Portuguese and South African ammo years ago and have plenty of twenty and twenty-five round mags. This particular rifle has a sixteen and a half inch barrel and shoots cast into less than two inches at a hundred yards all day long. Lake City Match or my handloads with 4895 and sierra 168gr match hold inside of an inch if I do my part with the eight power scope mounted (russian mil dot). No need for wimpy short "assault rifle" rounds like the x39 or the 8mm kurtz. The 7.62 NATO is a proven combat round, easy to reload, much more component availability etc.

jbc

10-18-2009, 04:21 PM

[QUOTE=Lead Fred;693987]They are AKSs not AK-47s, you have not nor will ever see a AK-47 unless your a Nam Vet.

Sorry but that is not at all true there are MANY younger vets of more current conflicts that have seen an ak-47 and an ak-74 up close and very personal

Ricochet

10-18-2009, 04:52 PM

7.62 x39 is pretty cast bullet friendly as is.
Doesn't seem to me to need improving.

StarMetal

10-18-2009, 05:03 PM

They are AKSs not AK-47s, you have not nor will ever see a AK-47 unless your a Nam Vet.

If you use a clean powder in a SETME or G3, they will fire all dang day. They are ammo picky. The lack of gas system makes this a good choice. The weight does not.

The SKS is superior to the AKS in every way except ammo storage. Even with 10 round stippers, you can carry more ammo without the weight of the mags. You just cant spray and pray as much.

Id not use any cast round in a semi gas gun. Thats why I stockpiled rounds and projectiles 10 years ago.

I leave the cast for the leverguns and bolts, and single shots.

Lighten up Fred, I assure you that I know the difference in nomenclature between the full auto AK 47's and the semi auto versions the AKS's. And for your information to you don't have to be a Nam vet to see one. I used AK as a generic name very much like the news media does in describing a criminal act involving a AKS....but their reasoning is to make the deed sound much more menacing with making people believe it was a full auto.

Joe

Hardcast416taylor

10-18-2009, 05:11 PM

The germans had such a 8mm round in WW 2 called the 8mm Kurz for their Stg-44 auto rifle.Robert

JIMinPHX

10-18-2009, 05:35 PM

You can find a little info on the 8mm Kurz here -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61537

StarMetal

10-18-2009, 05:39 PM

The germans had such a 8mm round in WW 2 called the 8mm Kurz for their Stg-44 auto rifle.Robert

HIJACK HIJACK!!! The Stg44 was suppose to be available from Interordanance Arms in a semi auto version. Haven't heard anymore on it.

Joe

RU shooter

10-18-2009, 07:08 PM

Lighten up Fred, I assure you that I know the difference in nomenclature between the full auto AK 47's and the semi auto versions the AKS's. And for your information to you don't have to be a Nam vet to see one. I used AK as a generic name very much like the news media does in describing a criminal act involving a AKS....but their reasoning is to make the deed sound much more menacing with making people believe it was a full auto.

Joe+1 with you Joe, Now lets throw the AKM and the AKMS into the mix :kidding:

35remington

10-18-2009, 07:47 PM

I'd also vote for leaving it as is. Fine combat round, deer hunting capable, with jacketed or cast as it is now. A few thousandths increase in caliber won't do much.

I also can't see what a heavier, slower bullet would do for lethality or cast bullet friendliness, given that the 7.62 X 39's velocity range and case capacity make it a good cast bullet shooter as is. Going to a slower, more arched trajectory would be a step backwards.

jdgabbard

10-18-2009, 08:10 PM

No my gas system never plugged up and in fact the rifle shot pretty clean with cast and the barrel stayed in good condition never leading up. I think the SKS is a great rifle

StarMetal, you're right in that the SKS is a very good rifle. As I said earlier, I have several models and they all outshoot my Aks with the exception of one of my AKs. But the SKS's system does throw trash into the tight tolerance piston system. Which I have had cause some minor issues with cycling. You won't see this with the super loose AKs.

They are AKSs not AK-47s, you have not nor will ever see a AK-47 unless your a Nam Vet.

If you use a clean powder in a SETME or G3, they will fire all dang day. They are ammo picky. The lack of gas system makes this a good choice. The weight does not.

The SKS is superior to the AKS in every way except ammo storage. Even with 10 round stippers, you can carry more ammo without the weight of the mags. You just cant spray and pray as much.

Id not use any cast round in a semi gas gun. Thats why I stockpiled rounds and projectiles 10 years ago.

I leave the cast for the leverguns and bolts, and single shots.

Lead Fred, I strongly disagree with you on this one. I personally have seen them in combat. And not only are you wrong on that one, but I've seen the various other makes as well. Everything from the 101 series to the more exotic varients such as the M92s. And as for superiority. If I had to grab one, either would work, but the AK is much more dependable. I've had more malfunctions with SKSs then any AK I've owned, with the exception of one that had a magazine latch in the wrong place and was causing jams.

By the way, back in the late 70's someone already created a 7.62X39 wildcat in .35 caliber. I think it was on the cover of gun digest or something like that.

kawalekm, I believe you're probably talking about the 9x39mm soviet sniper round. Designed for as a subsonic catridge for a suppressed rifle used by the Soviet Special Forces. It had great long range performance. Much talk of this over on Gunco.

It's actually the forerunner the the 7.62 x 39

Jim, the two were actually in design phase at the same time. The soviet cartridge was designed off a scaled down artillery shell. While the Kurtz was a whole 'nother beast. Both were fielded to their respected armies in a new rifle within an EXTREMELY short time of each other. However, the kurtz did get there first. This is a common miss understanding as they do look very similar to each other.

What about the legal issues? you are 'manufacturing' a firearm

Gunnerd, as for constructing a firearm, he said he was going to rebarrel a SKS. So construction wouldn't be an issue here. And wouldn't be anyways as long as he never transfered it to another person. People have been doing homebuilds for a long time with the BATFE's approval. This is another common misunderstanding.

I don't claim to be a subject matter expert on those guns. But I have done an extremely indepth study on them as I am a collector of soviet firearms and militia. I also have built many of the AKs on parts kits (which is a lot more involved then what you might think. You actually do REAL gunsmithing with this peeps.) As well as having built a couple of SBRs on Form 1s.

EDIT: Jim, I'm sorry. I spoke soon. It was actually a antiaircraft round it was designed on. Much like how Browning scaled the .45acp down to come up with the .380acp.

JIMinPHX

10-18-2009, 08:34 PM

tommygirlMT

10-19-2009, 12:23 AM

Define "survival"? TEOTWAWKI? Civil unrest? Hoards of MZB's overrunning you AO as you do your John Rourke impression with a dash of Rambo thrown in?

<snip>

Well if you want me to get specific I'm talking about mass infrastructure collapse situations. Potential causes are numerous ranging from Acts of God to man made sh*t hits the fan situations such as large scale deployment and subsequent use of EMP devices across the entire N.A. Continent. Basically a situation where electricity is gone, gas piped to your house is gone, the rail-roads are down, and whatever gas, diesel, and full oils have already been refined is all there is at least for the vehicles and equipment that will still run. No more delivery trucks showing up to the grocery, hardware, and box stores no more food stamps no more SS or welfare checks showing up, no mail, no phones, jammed up crowded short-wave frequencies.

First thing that is going to happen within a week's time or less is that cities are going to run out of food, fuel, and other supplies. Massive riots will occur. Law enforcement and civil services in the cities will be over-run and obliterated by organized "gang-banger" types aided by ordinary civilians who are desperate. had week morals in good times much less dire circumstances, and who don't know how survive on their own without outside services being provided. The police and military armories in such areas will be over-run and looted. Following this organized, desperate, and determined raiding parties will set out into the country side and farm country as well as actively staking out and manning ambush sites along major roads and highways. They will pillage, rape, and loot at will.

If someone thinks this can't happen here they are sorely mistaken. Didn't you learn anything from Katrina? Which quite frankly was pretty mild circumstances --- aid did eventually arrive. What if aid never comes? What if the gang banger types and their swelling new recruits of desperate weak morales, welfare scum in the cities figure out that aid is never coming? Now what happens when "The Powers That Be" finally do respond --- that's where it gets even worse. "The Powers That Be" actively defended, justified, condoned, and even assisted the looting following Katrina. And we aren’t talking about matter of survival looting by starving people which is much easier to justify --- they were justifying the looting of electronic stores and such !!! Oh, yes, eventually they will crack down --- but it won't just be those that pillaged, raped, and looted that they will crack down on --- they will also crack down on those who had the audacity to "horde food and supplies" and defended themselves and their families against desperate murderous thugs who attacked in mass.

Now here is where the real kicker is --- they aren’t going to send in the Marines or the Army. Oh no, to settle things back down they are going to turn to private contractors such as Black Water who have been, are, and will be hired "to do jobs that GI troops can't or won't do." Please note the fact I have put that in quotes --- If that don't send chills down your spine I don't know what will.

So the situation I'm directly addressing is when our farm gets attacked by a half dozen or so gang-bangers equipped with stolen police and possibly even military weapons and it's only me, my father, and maybe a few others to defend it. It's our land and we know it like the back of our hands and we have cover --- but holding a position against superior numbers is not going to be a piece of cake. How about working the fields by hand and beasts of burden with a rifle on your back all the time because an attack may come at any time? How about defending the stock against four legged predators who are extra hungry and bold because most of the wild game animals in the area have been harvested for food? How about taking a wagon load of produce into your local small country town to trade for goods and a couple of Black Water thugs who are government sanctioned and contracted to patrol the roads and put down organized road gangs and are above the law decide to make a man treat out of a decent looking farm girl on the hood of their humvee with a knife to her throat?

Oh, yes, a large caliber full power rifle firing something like the 308-NATO with a back-pack full of full mags. would be great --- but you know what. If your smart you'll save all that sardine canned full power FMJ military surplus ammo for when it's not just a half dozen thugs that attack but rather when they come in force by the hundreds and you and your neighbors most stand shoulder to shoulder in organized resistance. You'll use the cast bullet reloads when it's just a couple thugs or for the rifle on your back when your working the fields or standing guard over the stock. You'll cast by night over the fire melting a dipper full of lead at a time. If you know what you doing and there is sufficient raw materials available you might even start making your own black and loading your cast with it. You'll save the thousands and thousands of sardine canned FMJ ammo for when you really need it and it's all out war when the hordes from the nearest city who can't figure out how to grow food on concrete descend upon you and your neighbors to take by force whatever you have and kill and eat any piece of meat they can find --- including the very flesh on your bones. Yes, if they kill you in battle they will probably cook and eat you right along side your live-stock.

I really hate to use movies and TV shows as examples because they are often so unrealistic but I'm not talking a "Red Dawn" situation where your enemies wear uniforms and you can take munitions to resupply your gorilla efforts from every Soviet supply chain you hit. I'm talking a "Jericho" situation where the city thirty miles away that's run out of food comes at you and your neighbors with a rag tag army numbering in the hundreds to take everything you have so that its you that starve instead of them. That's where you use whatever supplies of full power jacketed bulk ammo you have. You use the cast loads for the every other day thugs who come a few at a time for the same purpose and reason and it would be good to have a semi-auto combat type rifle to deliver the appropriate medicinal pill to put such individuals out of their misery before they rape, kill, and eat you. A semi-auto with numerous high capacity mags. will help you keep from being over run when facing a determined foe with superior numbers compared to a single shot or bolt rifle. Lever guns are pretty quick --- until you empty the tube mag. and then reloading is not so quick.

Now please don't get the wrong Idea that I'm selfish who would rather kill a poor starving refuge than give him or her a crust of bread. I have no problem sharing what I have especially if I have an abundance with those in need. In fact if such a situation did go down we would actually need good men and women. It takes a lot more hands to cut and split firewood when your using a cross-cut handsaw and sledge and wedge instead of a chain saw and hydraulic splitter. It takes a LOT more people to harvest a grain crop by hand and beast of burden without motorized mechanization. More then just a couple people can benefit from a warm fire-wood heated large farm house during the long cold winter. Without an active transportation system the harvest will yield more then a couple people can eat or even successfully transport to market. No reason for the rats to get it. For such honorable men and women who frequent forums like this one if you find yourself starving in the cities because you can't grow food on concrete and you are willing to do your part and put in the honest labor to keep a farm going then I'm sure there will be many a farmer who would be glad to have an extra set of hands --- I have no doubt I'll be one of them. But show up on our doorstep determined to pillage, rape, and loot and your going to get an entirely different kind of reception.

I know I will run out of jacketed bullets to reload long before I run out of primers or powder. I would be surprised if the same is not true of other boolit casters on this forum. --- So yes I want a combat capable semi-auto cast bullet gun and I am exploring my options.

<snip>

To the specifics- what do you think an 8mm will do that a .312 won't? Any change in the shoulder/neck could lead to feeding issues. Have at it if you wish, but where will you get the jacketed bullets to fill your hi-cap mags with? You'll be strictly a hand loading proposition, and that means you'll need a large supply of once fired brass to reform into the 5K rounds you'll need to fill those mags, even more if you modify to a beltfeduberrifle.

In it's stock configuration about 150gr. is the heaviest cast bullet you can cram into the 7.62x39, anything close to full power loads requires the use of a gas check, casting alloy needs to be of good hard alloy --- you can't just use whatever you happen to have available, and usually you need good quality lube --- it can't just bee some beef tallow you have to make do with. Everything I know about cast bullets says if you are trying to make a cast bullet specific cartridge --- that is by definition a cartridge that does as good or better with cast as it does with jacketed in most cases with most modern bottle neck cartridges you need to start thinking about necking it up to take a larger diameter bullet to bring the powder volume to caliber/boolit-weight into a more efficient and effective combination. Especially if you don't want to be tied down to gas checks and/or high quality lubes. For the 7.62x39 caliber specifically, according to my research so far, the largest caliber it can be necked up to accept is 41-cal. Semi-auto feeding capabilities is confirmed to be good in most actions up to 35-cal and feeding problems were reported on a 375-cal neck up job. So for necking up that left me with basically 8mm, 338-cal, and 35-cal for options. After examining bullet weight and style options on all three calibers as well as how much it would reduce the powder capacity of the case considering the shoulder would have to be pushed back as well for the cartridge to still be short enough to fit 7.62x39 high capacity magazines and gun action I came to the conclusion that the 8mm was probably the best choice to give me the best ballistic performance without having an absolute requirement for gas checks or high quality lubes.

There is another option which I believe would work very well. That being the 223-Rem case cut off at the shoulder joint and the forward section necked to accept 8mm bullets. Problem was I was unable to dig up any thing on the web indicating that such a combination has been successfully done and will feed and fire in a semi-auto combat capable rifle platform such as the AR-15 with cast bullets without any significant issues:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=178&pictureid=1434

Lead Fred

10-19-2009, 01:19 AM

S.R.Custom

10-19-2009, 03:02 AM

...So the situation I'm directly addressing is when our farm gets attacked by a half dozen or so gang-bangers equipped with stolen police and possibly even military weapons and it's only me, my father, and maybe a few others to defend it...

Personally, when the SHTF, I'm not going to care too much about bullet casting. That assumes a ready supply of alloy, lube, gas checks, powder etc., and I don't see that as very likely. Not to mention the fact that you'll probably have to go mobile, and totin' all that stuff plus your Dillon 550 is going to be a real drag... In a collapsing civilization scenario, your weapon choice isn't going to matter nearly as much as your skill in using it; your ability to adapt to and deal with unforeseen circumstances is going to be what determines your survival.

That said, my SHTF implement of survival is a Savage 7mm mag with a Gen-3 nightscope. And if for some reason that proves inadequate, I'm competent enough with it to procure whatever I may need.

thehouseproduct

10-19-2009, 03:44 AM

Well if you want me to get specific I'm talking about mass infrastructure collapse situations. Potential causes are numerous ranging from Acts of God to man made sh*t hits the fan situations such as large scale deployment and subsequent use of EMP devices across the entire N.A. Continent. Basically a situation where electricity is gone, gas piped to your house is gone, the rail-roads are down, and whatever gas, diesel, and full oils have already been refined is all there is at least for the vehicles and equipment that will still run. No more delivery trucks showing up to the grocery, hardware, and box stores no more food stamps no more SS or welfare checks showing up, no mail, no phones, jammed up crowded short-wave frequencies.

First thing that is going to happen within a week's time or less is that cities are going to run out of food, fuel, and other supplies. Massive riots will occur. Law enforcement and civil services in the cities will be over-run and obliterated by organized "gang-banger" types aided by ordinary civilians who are desperate. had week morals in good times much less dire circumstances, and who don't know how survive on their own without outside services being provided. The police and military armories in such areas will be over-run and looted. Following this organized, desperate, and determined raiding parties will set out into the country side and farm country as well as actively staking out and manning ambush sites along major roads and highways. They will pillage, rape, and loot at will.

If someone thinks this can't happen here they are sorely mistaken. Didn't you learn anything from Katrina? Which quite frankly was pretty mild circumstances --- aid did eventually arrive. What if aid never comes? What if the gang banger types and their swelling new recruits of desperate weak morales, welfare scum in the cities figure out that aid is never coming? Now what happens when "The Powers That Be" finally do respond --- that's where it gets even worse. "The Powers That Be" actively defended, justified, condoned, and even assisted the looting following Katrina. And we aren’t talking about matter of survival looting by starving people which is much easier to justify --- they were justifying the looting of electronic stores and such !!! Oh, yes, eventually they will crack down --- but it won't just be those that pillaged, raped, and looted that they will crack down on --- they will also crack down on those who had the audacity to "horde food and supplies" and defended themselves and their families against desperate murderous thugs who attacked in mass.

Now here is where the real kicker is --- they aren’t going to send in the Marines or the Army. Oh no, to settle things back down they are going to turn to private contractors such as Black Water who have been, are, and will be hired "to do jobs that GI troops can't or won't do." Please note the fact I have put that in quotes --- If that don't send chills down your spine I don't know what will.

So the situation I'm directly addressing is when our farm gets attacked by a half dozen or so gang-bangers equipped with stolen police and possibly even military weapons and it's only me, my father, and maybe a few others to defend it. It's our land and we know it like the back of our hands and we have cover --- but holding a position against superior numbers is not going to be a piece of cake. How about working the fields by hand and beasts of burden with a rifle on your back all the time because an attack may come at any time? How about defending the stock against four legged predators who are extra hungry and bold because most of the wild game animals in the area have been harvested for food? How about taking a wagon load of produce into your local small country town to trade for goods and a couple of Black Water thugs who are government sanctioned and contracted to patrol the roads and put down organized road gangs and are above the law decide to make a man treat out of a decent looking farm girl on the hood of their humvee with a knife to her throat?

Oh, yes, a large caliber full power rifle firing something like the 308-NATO with a back-pack full of full mags. would be great --- but you know what. If your smart you'll save all that sardine canned full power FMJ military surplus ammo for when it's not just a half dozen thugs that attack but rather when they come in force by the hundreds and you and your neighbors most stand shoulder to shoulder in organized resistance. You'll use the cast bullet reloads when it's just a couple thugs or for the rifle on your back when your working the fields or standing guard over the stock. You'll cast by night over the fire melting a dipper full of lead at a time. If you know what you doing and there is sufficient raw materials available you might even start making your own black and loading your cast with it. You'll save the thousands and thousands of sardine canned FMJ ammo for when you really need it and it's all out war when the hordes from the nearest city who can't figure out how to grow food on concrete descend upon you and your neighbors to take by force whatever you have and kill and eat any piece of meat they can find --- including the very flesh on your bones. Yes, if they kill you in battle they will probably cook and eat you right along side your live-stock.

I really hate to use movies and TV shows as examples because they are often so unrealistic but I'm not talking a "Red Dawn" situation where your enemies wear uniforms and you can take munitions to resupply your gorilla efforts from every Soviet supply chain you hit. I'm talking a "Jericho" situation where the city thirty miles away that's run out of food comes at you and your neighbors with a rag tag army numbering in the hundreds to take everything you have so that its you that starve instead of them. That's where you use whatever supplies of full power jacketed bulk ammo you have. You use the cast loads for the every other day thugs who come a few at a time for the same purpose and reason and it would be good to have a semi-auto combat type rifle to deliver the appropriate medicinal pill to put such individuals out of their misery before they rape, kill, and eat you. A semi-auto with numerous high capacity mags. will help you keep from being over run when facing a determined foe with superior numbers compared to a single shot or bolt rifle. Lever guns are pretty quick --- until you empty the tube mag. and then reloading is not so quick.

Now please don't get the wrong Idea that I'm selfish who would rather kill a poor starving refuge than give him or her a crust of bread. I have no problem sharing what I have especially if I have an abundance with those in need. In fact if such a situation did go down we would actually need good men and women. It takes a lot more hands to cut and split firewood when your using a cross-cut handsaw and sledge and wedge instead of a chain saw and hydraulic splitter. It takes a LOT more people to harvest a grain crop by hand and beast of burden without motorized mechanization. More then just a couple people can benefit from a warm fire-wood heated large farm house during the long cold winter. Without an active transportation system the harvest will yield more then a couple people can eat or even successfully transport to market. No reason for the rats to get it. For such honorable men and women who frequent forums like this one if you find yourself starving in the cities because you can't grow food on concrete and you are willing to do your part and put in the honest labor to keep a farm going then I'm sure there will be many a farmer who would be glad to have an extra set of hands --- I have no doubt I'll be one of them. But show up on our doorstep determined to pillage, rape, and loot and your going to get an entirely different kind of reception.

I know I will run out of jacketed bullets to reload long before I run out of primers or powder. I would be surprised if the same is not true of other boolit casters on this forum. --- So yes I want a combat capable semi-auto cast bullet gun and I am exploring my options.

In it's stock configuration about 150gr. is the heaviest cast bullet you can cram into the 7.62x39, anything close to full power loads requires the use of a gas check, casting alloy needs to be of good hard alloy --- you can't just use whatever you happen to have available, and usually you need good quality lube --- it can't just bee some beef tallow you have to make do with. Everything I know about cast bullets says if you are trying to make a cast bullet specific cartridge --- that is by definition a cartridge that does as good or better with cast as it does with jacketed in most cases with most modern bottle neck cartridges you need to start thinking about necking it up to take a larger diameter bullet to bring the powder volume to caliber/boolit-weight into a more efficient and effective combination. Especially if you don't want to be tied down to gas checks and/or high quality lubes. For the 7.62x39 caliber specifically, according to my research so far, the largest caliber it can be necked up to accept is 41-cal. Semi-auto feeding capabilities is confirmed to be good in most actions up to 35-cal and feeding problems were reported on a 375-cal neck up job. So for necking up that left me with basically 8mm, 338-cal, and 35-cal for options. After examining bullet weight and style options on all three calibers as well as how much it would reduce the powder capacity of the case considering the shoulder would have to be pushed back as well for the cartridge to still be short enough to fit 7.62x39 high capacity magazines and gun action I came to the conclusion that the 8mm was probably the best choice to give me the best ballistic performance without having an absolute requirement for gas checks or high quality lubes.

There is another option which I believe would work very well. That being the 223-Rem case cut off at the shoulder joint and the forward section necked to accept 8mm bullets. Problem was I was unable to dig up any thing on the web indicating that such a combination has been successfully done and will feed and fire in a semi-auto combat capable rifle platform such as the AR-15 with cast bullets without any significant issues:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=178&pictureid=1434
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w338223s.html

JIMinPHX

10-19-2009, 05:50 AM

In it's stock configuration about 150gr. is the heaviest cast bullet you can cram into the 7.62x39, anything close to full power loads requires the use of a gas check, casting alloy needs to be of good hard alloy --- you can't just use whatever you happen to have available, and usually you need good quality lube --- it can't just bee some beef tallow you have to make do with.

Actually, the Harris design boolit molds that you can get from Lee are 155 & 160 grain, depending on the lube groove type. As for gas checks, just buy a check maker from Pat Marlin now, before the zombies attack.:kidding: I've loaded that round with 13BNH slugs & had great success. Even the Humvee's that Backwater is likely to drive will probably have 13BNH wheel weights on them that you can salvage. :bigsmyl2:

JIMinPHX

10-19-2009, 05:58 AM

There is another option which I believe would work very well. That being the 223-Rem case cut off at the shoulder joint and the forward section necked to accept 8mm bullets. Problem was I was unable to dig up any thing on the web indicating that such a combination has been successfully done and will feed and fire in a semi-auto combat capable rifle platform such as the AR-15 with cast bullets without any significant issues:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=178&pictureid=1434

You might want to look up the 338-223 Straight that Max Atchisson brought out in 1972.

Bret4207

10-19-2009, 07:39 AM

Well if you want me to get specific I'm talking about mass infrastructure collapse situations. Potential causes are numerous ranging from Acts of God to man made sh*t hits the fan situations such as large scale deployment and subsequent use of EMP devices across the entire N.A. Continent. Basically a situation where electricity is gone, gas piped to your house is gone, the rail-roads are down, and whatever gas, diesel, and full oils have already been refined is all there is at least for the vehicles and equipment that will still run. No more delivery trucks showing up to the grocery, hardware, and box stores no more food stamps no more SS or welfare checks showing up, no mail, no phones, jammed up crowded short-wave frequencies.

First thing that is going to happen within a week's time or less is that cities are going to run out of food, fuel, and other supplies. Massive riots will occur. Law enforcement and civil services in the cities will be over-run and obliterated by organized "gang-banger" types aided by ordinary civilians who are desperate. had week morals in good times much less dire circumstances, and who don't know how survive on their own without outside services being provided. The police and military armories in such areas will be over-run and looted. Following this organized, desperate, and determined raiding parties will set out into the country side and farm country as well as actively staking out and manning ambush sites along major roads and highways. They will pillage, rape, and loot at will.

If someone thinks this can't happen here they are sorely mistaken. Didn't you learn anything from Katrina? Which quite frankly was pretty mild circumstances --- aid did eventually arrive. What if aid never comes? What if the gang banger types and their swelling new recruits of desperate weak morales, welfare scum in the cities figure out that aid is never coming? Now what happens when "The Powers That Be" finally do respond --- that's where it gets even worse. "The Powers That Be" actively defended, justified, condoned, and even assisted the looting following Katrina. And we aren’t talking about matter of survival looting by starving people which is much easier to justify --- they were justifying the looting of electronic stores and such !!! Oh, yes, eventually they will crack down --- but it won't just be those that pillaged, raped, and looted that they will crack down on --- they will also crack down on those who had the audacity to "horde food and supplies" and defended themselves and their families against desperate murderous thugs who attacked in mass.You give them a lot of credit for organizational skills they may not come close to having

Now here is where the real kicker is --- they aren’t going to send in the Marines or the Army. Really? You've seen the PLAN?!?! Oh no, to settle things back down they are going to turn to private contractors such as Black Water who have been, are, and will be hired "to do jobs that GI troops can't or won't do." Please note the fact I have put that in quotes --- If that don't send chills down your spine I don't know what will.And you have proof of this? Sounds like a lot of supposition. In a complete collapse as you lay out, what makes you think the Gov't will give a hoot about your and my little area? They may attempt to re-take the cities, but I doubt they'll be too concerned about "Speedzoneahead" Mt or NY. I also note the complete lack of the possibility the locals will form groups to wipe the "gang bangers out. If we're dealing in fantasy then all options are open.

So the situation I'm directly addressing is when our farm gets attacked by a half dozen or so gang-bangers equipped with stolen police and possibly even military weapons and it's only me, my father, and maybe a few others to defend it. It's our land and we know it like the back of our hands and we have cover --- but holding a position against superior numbers is not going to be a piece of cake. How about working the fields by hand and beasts of burden with a rifle on your back all the time because an attack may come at any time? How about defending the stock against four legged predators who are extra hungry and bold because most of the wild game animals in the area have been harvested for food? How about taking a wagon load of produce into your local small country town to trade for goods and a couple of Black Water thugs who are government sanctioned and contracted to patrol the roads and put down organized road gangs and are above the law decide to make a man treat out of a decent looking farm girl on the hood of their humvee with a knife to her throat?Then you shouldn't have left in the first place and made a big mistake. Once the knife is to your throat all the nifty Mall Ninja gear isn't going to help.

Oh, yes, a large caliber full power rifle firing something like the 308-NATO with a back-pack full of full mags. would be great --- but you know what. If your smart you'll save all that sardine canned full power FMJ military surplus ammo for when it's not just a half dozen thugs that attack but rather when they come in force by the hundreds and you and your neighbors most stand shoulder to shoulder in organized resistance. You'll use the cast bullet reloads when it's just a couple thugs or for the rifle on your back when your working the fields or standing guard over the stock. You'll cast by night over the fire melting a dipper full of lead at a time. If you know what you doing and there is sufficient raw materials available you might even start making your own black and loading your cast with it. You'll save the thousands and thousands of sardine canned FMJ ammo for when you really need it and it's all out war when the hordes from the nearest city who can't figure out how to grow food on concrete descend upon you and your neighbors to take by force whatever you have and kill and eat any piece of meat they can find --- including the very flesh on your bones. Yes, if they kill you in battle they will probably cook and eat you right along side your live-stock.More fantasy.

I really hate to use movies and TV shows as examples because they are often so unrealistic but I'm not talking a "Red Dawn" situation where your enemies wear uniforms and you can take munitions to resupply your gorilla efforts from every Soviet supply chain you hit. I'm talking a "Jericho" situation where the city thirty miles away that's run out of food comes at you and your neighbors with a rag tag army numbering in the hundreds to take everything you have so that its you that starve instead of them. That's where you use whatever supplies of full power jacketed bulk ammo you have. You use the cast loads for the every other day thugs who come a few at a time for the same purpose and reason and it would be good to have a semi-auto combat type rifle to deliver the appropriate medicinal pill to put such individuals out of their misery before they rape, kill, and eat you. A semi-auto with numerous high capacity mags. will help you keep from being over run when facing a determined foe with superior numbers compared to a single shot or bolt rifle. Lever guns are pretty quick --- until you empty the tube mag. and then reloading is not so quick.Thats where fire discipline comes in. Many of us that are a bit older didn't grow up in the spray and pray mindset know that eventually the ammo runs out. In a defensive position things are even better.

Now please don't get the wrong Idea that I'm selfish (edited out) NICE LANGUAGE! Grow up and learn to communicate without cussingwho would rather kill a poor starving refuge than give him or her a crust of bread. I have no problem sharing what I have especially if I have an abundance with those in need. In fact if such a situation did go down we would actually need good men and women. It takes a lot more hands to cut and split firewood when your using a cross-cut handsaw and sledge and wedge instead of a chain saw and hydraulic splitter. It takes a LOT more people to harvest a grain crop by hand and beast of burden without motorized mechanization. More then just a couple people can benefit from a warm fire-wood heated large farm house during the long cold winter. Without an active transportation system the harvest will yield more then a couple people can eat or even successfully transport to market. No reason for the rats to get it. For such honorable men and women who frequent forums like this one if you find yourself starving in the cities because you can't grow food on concrete and you are willing to do your part and put in the honest labor to keep a farm going then I'm sure there will be many a farmer who would be glad to have an extra set of hands --- I have no doubt I'll be one of them. But show up on our doorstep determined to pillage, rape, and loot and your going to get an entirely different kind of reception.

I know I will run out of jacketed bullets to reload long before I run out of primers or powder. I would be surprised if the same is not true of other boolit casters on this forum. --- So yes I want a combat capable semi-auto cast bullet gun and I am exploring my options.

In it's stock configuration about 150gr. is the heaviest cast bullet you can cram into the 7.62x39,Wrong anything close to full power loads requires the use of a gas check, casting alloy needs to be of good hard alloyCompletely wrong--- you can't just use whatever you happen to have available, Yes- you CAN!and usually you need good quality lube --- it can't just bee some beef tallow you have to make do with. Wrong again. Everything I know about cast bullets says if you are trying to make a cast bullet specific cartridge --- that is by definition a cartridge that does as good or better with cast as it does with jacketed in most cases with most modern bottle neck cartridges you need to start thinking about necking it up to take a larger diameter bullet to bring the powder volume to caliber/boolit-weight into a more efficient and effective combination.???? So you want a handloading only proposition in a survival rifle???? Especially if you don't want to be tied down to gas checks and/or high quality lubes. For the 7.62x39 caliber specifically, according to my research so far, the largest caliber it can be necked up to accept is 41-cal. Semi-auto feeding capabilities is confirmed to be good in most actions up to 35-cal and feeding problems were reported on a 375-cal neck up job. So for necking up that left me with basically 8mm, 338-cal, and 35-cal for options. After examining bullet weight and style options on all three calibers as well as how much it would reduce the powder capacity of the case considering the shoulder would have to be pushed back as well for the cartridge to still be short enough to fit 7.62x39 high capacity magazines and gun action I came to the conclusion that the 8mm was probably the best choice to give me the best ballistic performance without having an absolute requirement for gas checks or high quality lubes.Why not learn to use the 7.62x39 as is and make it work?

There is another option which I believe would work very well. That being the 223-Rem case cut off at the shoulder joint and the forward section necked to accept 8mm bullets. Problem was I was unable to dig up any thing on the web indicating that such a combination has been successfully done and will feed and fire in a semi-auto combat capable rifle platform such as the AR-15 with cast bullets without any significant issues:Even MORE work and specialization.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=178&pictureid=1434

Look, I can appreciate your concerns and have thought along the same lines myself. Instead of watching movies and tv about what "might" happen, look at the Balkans to see what DID happen. And consider that a month into your scenario all it would take is a good flu to wipe out half of the remaining population- gangbangers and Blackwater type rapists included.

I live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I have the same concerns. But I fail to see why you think a custom wildcat would somehow be an appropriate choice for that situation. If you want to do it, that's fine. Go for it. But I have a feeling you'd be better served spending the money on canning jars, bow saw blades, files and meds than custom dies and moulds.

The mall ninjas on Frugals and TB2K and all the other sites are great for gear, gear, gear. But once the ball drops it's a whole 'nuther story. IF things get as bad as you lay out, and they could, then you aren't going to be doing any traveling to the store. You'll be hunkered down on the farm, moving in small groups to get the work done and standing guard a LOT. You aren't going to have the time or energy to cast boolits after your daily shoot out.

If you're really concerned get more surplus ammo and canning jars and salt and sugar and meds and toilet paper and tools and.....

StarMetal

10-19-2009, 10:19 AM

Cartridges Of The World (#9) page 329 has a little blurb on the Kurz. After describing the attributes of the Kurz, they say "This combination must have been quite effective because it was used against the Russians, who almost immediately copied it & brought out a similar assault rifle & cartridge."

I made my statement based on that. It's the only info that I have on that round.

I've studied this a lot. Actually the Kurtz had nothing to do with the AK 47 and the 7.62x39. The Russians were working on on something like the AK and 7.62x39 all along. The Germans actually did beat them fielding their Kurtz. Their is another little short German round the Rooskies were looking at. The AK is also no way like the STg44 and the original AK is no way as we know it today. It was a real ugly piece of junk looking thing and more pistol like.

Joe

robertbank

10-19-2009, 10:26 AM

jdgabbard

10-19-2009, 12:45 PM

Yes AK is the general term. AK-47 is what the media uses for anything paramilitary.

Most problems from SKSs is when folks try to fix what aint broke. Ive not seen one that is doesnt have after market on it malfunction in years.

If you saw an AK-47 in combat, you should have turned it in. The US Army only has 6 working models, and a few for parts. That was when I worked with the special weapons detactment at Ft Lewis in the 90s.

The AKs we can own, and the real ones are nothing alike except how they look.
The SKSs on the other hand, ARE the real ones.

Id not even mess with reloading 7.62x39 its still cheap to by, just stockpile a bunch.

You DO realize that the real AKs and the ones we get in the states are absolutely identical with the exception of not having a hole for the third axis pin (thus not having that assembly) and part of the bolt carrier has been machined to keep people from altering their AK to work.

I have yet to have seen a commercial or homebuild AK that wasn't built off of a DeMilled Parts Kit with the exception of the Saigas.

No trying to hound ya, but I think you should do a bit more research. The info you have is not correct.

TommyGirl, I gotta say this. I agree with you that everyone that lives in a large city should have something that takes hi-caps. However, this is something that I'm going to throw out there. Anybody remember two winters back when Oklahoma was devistated by the massive ice storm??? Tulsa and OKC were out of power for weeks. Here in Tulsa there is a large supply of those "bangers" you speak of. You know what happened? People who could drove out of town to relatives or friends to get warm and get food. And people who couldn't (me, because the college couldn't make up their mind on finals) sat at home on the couch, wrapped up in a lot of blankets and twittled our thumbs.

I'm not saying another Katrina wouldn't happen, but you have to understand the complex dynamics of that particular case. I was activated and served during Katrina. As a matter of fact, our unit was one of the ONLY units that was actually authorized live ammo. The 82nd wasn't, at least when I talked to a couple of them. The worst part about Katrina was in fact the LEOs. I have a couple of buddies that were approached by some of the Local LEOs and were told "not to worry about anybody you see in there. Just shoot them on sight, their all bad guys." And that's something that was pretty much their standard attitude.

But without hijacking the thread further, I'll say that what you're wanting to do can be achived with many other run of the mill long guns. Currently my bug-out weapon is a Ruger PC-9 along with a .357mag and a .38spl airweight as backup. I can carry a LOT of ammo with this. And my main concern, should I have to bug-out, is simply getting to my place down south. I'm not trying to hold up, fight off the commies, or defend my apartment. I'm only here going to school, and my plan of action is to: Return fire, break contact, and get to MY HOME safe. Once there I have all the other fun stuff to play with.

I would suggest that you have a plan close to this. Many people always talk about defending their little two bedroom home in suburbia with their AK/AR with a gazzillion rounds of ammo. One thing that Katrina taught me, don't worry about trying to defend your home. Worry about yourself, your family, and the others you love. Get the heck out of Dodge, and get somewhere else that's safe.

Just my .02

Three44s

10-20-2009, 02:24 AM

Concentrate on guns that fire rounds that you will likely face from an policing or occupying force.

Ie. They are toting 7.62X39 ........ you arm yourself with guns chambered for such.

So it becomes a guessing game ........

But there are but a few rifle rounds or pistol rounds that are "martial" cartridges today ..... so you've got 7.62X54, 7.62X51, 7.62X39, 5.45X39, 5.56,9X19 & 9X18 and .45 acp.

The Chinese have bunch of their own but I did not remember them off hand and this raises an issue ....... they could likely be very beligerent in the future ......

Before long the 5.7X28 will likely run to the top of some pile of our ordinance ....... so it's looming on the horizon as well.

Three 44s

Bret4207

10-20-2009, 07:48 AM

There are times when I think some survivalists actually hope all this happens.

There isn't enough wild game in N.A. to support much more than a large city not to mention approx. 400 million folks now living above the Rio Grand. Best we all work to ensuring it doesn't happen. Kind of starts with do on to others as you would have them do on to you doesn't it?

To follow the thread theme I guess the first thing I would do is locate the guy who stashed all the food and ammo and dispense with him. Kind of like reversing "THe Little Red Hen" story. If there ar no rules then why play by them? Now back to our regularly scheduled program....

Take Care

Bob

Bob, if a true TEOTWAWKI scenario develops that 400 million will be cut in half if not more after the first winter. Let a good dose of the flu run it's course and you'll cut it in half again.

FWIW- a good thing to have is a mess of 110 and 220 connibear body traps. Folks will be eating a lot more rabbit, muskrat, squirrel and house cat than they will deer and elk. Kiss you family dogs, most of them anyway, goodbye too. You want to stay in meat? Get some rabbits and set up a rabbitry. Half a dozen to a dozen does and a buck will keep you in protein on twigs and grass.

Pat I.

10-20-2009, 10:59 AM

If I was going to have to deal with the scenerio you laid out I wouldn't be worrying about building a gun I'd be looking into how to build a tank!!

robertbank

10-20-2009, 01:09 PM

Bob, if a true TEOTWAWKI scenario develops that 400 million will be cut in half if not more after the first winter. Let a good dose of the flu run it's course and you'll cut it in half again.

FWIW- a good thing to have is a mess of 110 and 220 connibear body traps. Folks will be eating a lot more rabbit, muskrat, squirrel and house cat than they will deer and elk. Kiss you family dogs, most of them anyway, goodbye too. You want to stay in meat? Get some rabbits and set up a rabbitry. Half a dozen to a dozen does and a buck will keep you in protein on twigs and grass.

+1.[smilie=s:

I think my wife and I would gather the family together and quietly say good bye. Surviving a nuclear holocost or a 100% breakdown in our infrastructure is not in the deck of cards I have been dealt. Best option for all of us on this small planet it to deal with over population and all try to get along. Up until now we haven't been steller doing either.

Just a guess on my part but I suspect you and I will be sitting on each others porch sipping a cool one before any of dooms day crowd gets their wish.

Take Care & Good Shootng

Bob
ps On balance I think a good bolt action .22LR with a scope on it would feed me a lot faster than any center fire rifle and for a lot longer. I have a shotgun and CZ 9MM to look after any personal problems that might occur.

Ricochet

10-20-2009, 01:18 PM

I don't think the SHTF scenario is a realistic worry, either. Inner city riots now and then, sure, we've had those off and on since the mid-'60s.

StarMetal

10-20-2009, 03:29 PM

Talk about hijacked and I'm guilty of that charge too. Let's get back to the 7.62x39. A nice change of caliber for it is to either neck it down to 6.5 or rechamber it to the 6.5 Grendel...and that my friends is what some have done on the 6.5 Grendel forum. Some guns converted consist of AK's, CZ 527's, and Ruger Mini 14's.

Joe

Bret4207

10-20-2009, 06:58 PM

You guys have a lot more faith than I do. At present I'd say we're lucky to make it to Christmas in one piece. Of course if The Messiah can get more control over the news and internet we'll never know how far spread it is. But that's politics and I wouldn't want to get that going here.

StarMetal

10-22-2009, 12:08 PM

I had mentioned in a previous post about the AK 47 that we know today isn't the original first one conceived. Well here's the picture of the original first AK 47.

Joe
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/AK47.jpg

BerdanIII

10-22-2009, 05:05 PM

StarMetal,

That looks like Kalashnikov's first burp gun in 7.62x25mm, designed during the Second International Debate; not an AK47.

mpmarty

10-22-2009, 07:25 PM

Not even close to an AK Those are PPSH sub guns

StarMetal

10-22-2009, 07:51 PM

Not even close to an AK Those are PPSH sub guns

Sudaev AS-44

The first Soviet 'true' intermediate cartridge (7.62x41 M43) assault rifle, Sudaev AS-44, as tested in 1944. Unfortunately, Sudaev fell severely ill in 1945 and died next year before finalizing his design.

Tokarev 7.62x41 experimental assault rifle tested in late 1945

The first Kalashnikov assault rifle prototype of 1946, also known as AK-46. Note that it had numerous internal and external differences from the later models, including separate safety and fire mode selector switches, as well as non-reciprocating charging handle, all located on the left side of the weapon

The Bulkin AB-46 experimental assault rifle, which greatly influenced the AK-47

The AK
The Kalashnikov assault rifle, also known to the West as the AK-47 (Avtomat Kalashnikova - 47, Kalashnikov automatic rifle, model of 1947), and its derivatives, also known under the common name of AK, is the most prolific small arm of the 2nd half of the XX century. It had been and still is (in more or less modified form) manufactured in dozens of countries, and used in hundreds of countries and conflicts since its introduction. The total number of the AK-type rifles made worldwide during the last 60 years is estimated at 90+ millions. This is a true legendary weapon, known for its extreme ruggedness, simplicity of operation and maintenance, and unsurpassed reliability even in worst conditions possible. It is used not only as a military weapon, but also as a platform for numerous sporting civilian rifles and shotguns (see Saiga semiautomatic shotguns, for example). The AK is an amalgam of previously known features and solutions, combined in the most effective way. The effectiveness, however, depends on the criteria used to measure it, and the key criteria for any and every Soviet and Russian military arm are: Reliability, Simplicity of operation and maintenance, Suitability for mass production. There never was any significant demand for good ergonomics or superb accuracy, though.

The true story of AK began late in 1942, when Soviet troops captured several specimen of the very new German MKb.42(H) machine carbine (assault rifle), along with some 7.92 Kurz ammunition. By mid-1943 the MKb.42(H) along with US-supplied M1 carbine were evaluated by Soviet experts, and it was decided on top level that similar weapons, firing the intermediate power cartridge, must be developed for Soviet army as soon as possible. The task of initial development of new ammunition was accomplished in rather short time. By November 1943 technical specifications for the 7.62x41mm cartridge, having bottlenecked, rimless case and firing 8-gram pointed bullet, were sent out to all Soviet small arms design bureaus and organizations. By the spring of 1944, there were at least ten designs of automatic weapons in the works (not counting semi-automatic carbines that resulted in adoption of SKS and bolt-action carbines that went nowhere). In mid-1944, trials commission selected the AS-44 assault rifle, designed by Sudaev, as the overall best, and ordered a limited production run for troops trials. Some AS-44 rifles were manufactured in spring of 1945, and these were evaluated by troops in summer of 1945, just after the Victory in Europe. Troops generally liked the AS-44, as it has longer effective range compared to PPSh-41 submachine gun, and provided better accuracy in semi-automatic fire. The problem was that AS-44 was overly heavy (more than 5 kg empty), and trials commission ordered next round of development and trials, which started early in 1946.

Enter Mikhail Kalashnikov, the young sergeant of Soviet tank forces, who, after being wounded in combat in 1942, designed a prototype submachine gun while on medical leave. His first weapon was rejected on the grounds of complexity, but the designer himself was assigned to the Red Army's Small Arms and Mortar Research & Proving ground (NIPSMVO) near the Moscow to continue his education and work on other weapons. Here Kalashnikov designed a semi-automatic carbine, heavily influenced by American M1 Garand rifle. This carbine, while not successful by itself, served as a starting point for the first Kalashnikov's assault rifle, provisionally known as AK No.1 or AK-46. In November of 1946 the AK-46 project was chosen for prototype manufacture along with 5 other projects (out of 16 submitted to commission), and Kalashnikov was sent to the city of Kovrov (also not far from the Moscow), to manufacture his weapon at the small arms factory there. The AK-46 was gas operated, rotary bolt weapon that utilized short-stroke gas piston above the barrel, and two-part receiver with separate trigger unit housing and dual controls (separate safety and fire selector switches on the left side of the trigger unit).
In December 1946 new assault rifles were tested at NIPSMVO range, with AS-44 being used as a control (its development has ceased earlier in 1946 due to untimely death of the Sudaev, who was severely ill by the 1945). As an initial result of these tests, the AK-46 was selected for further development by trials commission, with two more weapons selected for further evolution being rifles from designers Dementiev and Bulkin. The second round of trials, which included three weapons (AK-46 by Kalashnikov, AB-46 by Bulkin and AD by Dementiev), resulted in rejection of the improved AK-46, which was inferior to other rivals in many aspects. Despite that failure, Kalashnikov, using his contacts and support from some member of trials commission (whom he knew from his earlier work at NIPSMVO in 1943-46) pursued the head of the trials commission to review the results, and finally got a green light to continue his development for next round of trials. Following the technical failure of the AK-46, Kalashnikov and his companion designer Zaitsev (who was a staff weapons designer at Kovrov plant) decided to completely rework the design, using successful technical solutions borrowed from various weapons, including direct competitors. For example, the long-stroke gas piston, attached to the bolt carrier, along with captive return spring assembly and receiver cover were apparently inspired by Bulkin's AB-46 rifle; the idea of large clearances between bolt group and receiver walls, with minimum friction surfaces, was inspired by the Sudaev's AS-44, the safety / dust cover lever was copied from Browning designed Remington model 8 hunting rifle etc.
It must be noted here, that such copying and borrowing of ideas was actually encouraged by the trials commission (and the whole Soviet ideology), as all intellectual property in USSR was considered to be property of 'the people', or the state. Thus, any state-owned intellectual property could (and must) have been used to the benefit of the people / the state by anyone. And creating a new, most effective assault rifle for the victorious Soviet army was certainly on the top of the list of things, beneficial for the Soviet state at the time.

After extensive tests, conducted in December 1947 - January 1948, which included slightly improved Dementiev KB-P-410, Bulkin TKB-415 and all-new Kalashnikov AK-47 rifles, results were somewhat inconclusive. The AK-47 was found to be most durable and reliable out of three contestants, but it also dragged behind the other two in the accuracy department, especially in full automatic (which was, and still is considered the primary mode of fire for assault rifle in Russia). In fact, the only weapon that fulfilled accuracy requirements was the Bulkin AB-47 / TKB-415, but it had certain problems with parts durability. After lengthy discussion, trials commission finally decided that the better is the enemy of the good, and it is advisable to have not-so accurate but reliable weapon now, rather than to wait indefinitely for accurate-and -reliable weapon in the future. This decision ultimately lead commission to recommend AK-47 for troops trials in November, 1947. It was decided that the production of the new weapon must be commenced at Izhevsk arms plant (now Izhevsk Machine building Plant or IzhMash in short). Kalashnikov has moved from Kovrov to Izhevsk to help with production of the new weapon, which commenced in mid-1948. Official adoption followed late in 1949, with standard nomenclature being '7.62mm avtomat Kalashnikova AK' (7.62mm automatic carbine Kalashnikov). At the same time, a folding buttstock version was adopted for airborne units use, as '7.62mm avtomat Kalashnikova skladnoy AKS' (7.62mm automatic carbine Kalashnikov, folding).
It must be noted that the original design of the receiver, which was assembled from stamped steel 'box' with large machined steel insert pinned at the front, caused a lot of troubles at factory. The technology (equipment and labor) level of the time resulted in extremely high percentage of rejected receivers due to misformed walls, improper pinning of parts, bad geometry etc. After critical revision of the process at the factory it was calculated that it will be more economically feasible to return to the 'old-school' machined receivers. New, machined receiver was designed by one of factory's staff designers, and after approval by military, it was put into production at IzhMash in 1951, under the same basic designation.

Through the following years, design of AK incorporated many minor changes and updates, but it was the experimental Korobov TKB-517 assault rifle (tested by Soviet army in mid-fifties) that spurred further development of AK. The Korobov TKB-517 assault rifle was a great deal lighter than AK, about 1/3 cheaper to manufacture, and significantly more accurate in full automatic fire. This lead the Soviet army to issue new requirements for a lighter and more effective assault rifle, which were formulated in 1955. These requirements were also complemented by requirement for a companion squad automatic / light support weapon (light machine gun in Russian nomenclature). Trials for new weapons were held in 1957-58. Kalashnikov team from Izhevsk submitted an improved AK with new type of stamped receiver and other minor improvements, which competed against a number of weapons from other design teams from the Kovrov and Tula. In technical terms, the Kalashnikov entry fared about average in these trials, with certain rival weapons proving to be more combat-effective and less expensive to make. The trials commission, however, decided again that the better is the enemy of the good, and recommended the improved AK for adoption due to its proven performance and familiarity to the industry and troops. It was officially adopted in 1959 as the AKM ( Avtomat Kalashnikova Modernizirovannyj - Kalashnikov Automatic rifle, Modified).

The key changes in AKM, as compared to AK, were the introduction of the stamped steel receiver instead of the milled one, and improved trigger/hammer unit, with added hammer release delay device (often incorrectly referred as a rate reducer). Other changes were the redesigned, slightly raised buttstock and the pistol grip, and the addition of the removable muzzle flip compensator. This spoon-like compensator is screwed onto the muzzle and utilized the muzzle blast to reduce muzzle climb during the automatic fire. The compensator could be replaced by the screw-on "PBS-1 noiseless firing device", generally known as a silencer. This silencer requires a special, sub-sonic ammunition with heavier bullets to be used. Another change from AK to AKM was a slightly improved rear sight, with settings from 100 to 1000 (instead of the 800 on AK) meters. Both 800 and 1000 meters, however, are way too optimistic for any practical use, since the effective fire is limited roughly to 300-400 meters, if not less.

In the 1974, Soviet Army officially adopted the 5.45mm ammunition and the appropriately chambered AK-74 assault rifle as its new standard shoulder arm. The AKM, however, was never officially declared obsolete and removed from service, and is still in Russian army stocks. Some non-infantry units of the Russian Army are still armed with 1960s vintage AKM assault rifles. There's also an increasing interest in the 7.62mm weapons since many troops were disappointed by the effectiveness of the 5.45mm ammo during the local conflicts in the 1990s. Some Russian special forces troops (mostly police and Internal Affairs Ministry), currently operating in Chechnya, are using the venerable 7.62mm AKM rifles.

The AK and AKM rifles were widely exported to the pro-Soviet countries and regimes all around the world. Manufacturing licenses along with all necessary technical data packages were transferred (for free or at nominal fee) to many Warsaw Pact countries (Albania, Bulgaria, China, East Germany, Hungary, North Korea, Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia). Certain 'non-communist', but friendly countries, such as Egypt, Finland and Iraq, also received manufacturing licenses.

At the present time, despite the world-wide proliferation of the small-bore (5.56 / 5.45mm) weapons, many companies still manufacture 7.62mm assault rifles for military or police use (for example, there's an AK-103, made in limited numbers by the IZHMASH in Russia). Also, production of the semi-automatic only civilian AK derivatives is continued in many countries, including Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, China and others.

the AK-74
Soviet army started the development of its own small-caliber ammunition in the early 1960s. After some years of development, a new round was created. This round featured a bottlenecked, tapered case, slim bullet with nominal caliber of 5.45mm (actual bullet diameter is 5.62 mm). The bullet featured a combined steel and lead core with the hollow nose, muzzle velocity from the 415mm barrel was about 900 m/s. As soon as the new ammunition was available and accepted by the Soviet Military, it was decided to develop a new family of small arms around this cartridge, and an official requirements for new family of small arms were issued to all development organizations in 1966. Trials of new weapons commenced in 1968, and it must be note that most rifles, submitted for trials, were of highly advanced designs, as the main goal of the new weapon was to significantly improve hits probability. Most weapons were build using so called "balanced action", in which additional mass is added to the action to counter-recoil synchronously with the bolt group, to minimize its effect on the gun stability. About the only weapon of the more or less conventional design was the entry by Kalashnikov team - this was more or less the old AKM rifle, adapted for new 5.45mm ammunition.

After extensive and torturing tests two weapons were put forward for extended troop trials - the conventional A-3 assault rifle by Kalashnikov and 'balanced action' SA-006 rifle by Konstantinov. During field trials the latter was found to be much more accurate (and thus more combat-effective), especially in the hands of the average trained soldiers, while being adequately reliable. Despite that, trials commission have chosen the Kalashnikov entry as its design was already familiar to both industry and troops, and possibility of teething problems during production and use was relatively low, compared with entirely new design by Konstantinov. New Kalashnikov rifle also was simpler in design, lighter and somewhat cheaper to manufacture.

Following the decision of trials commission, Kalashnikov 5.45mm assault rifle was officially adopted by Soviet army early in 1974 as" 5.45mm Avtomat Kalashnikova, obraztsa 1974 goda (AK-74)". Basically, it was the same old AKM weapon, adapted to smaller 5.45mm ammunition and fitted with relatively large muzzle brake. Another distinguishing feature was found on the buttstock, in the form of two lightening oval cuts on either side. The folding butt version, known as AKS-74, which was intended for airborne troops, also featured a new type of folding buttstock - instead of the earlier pattern of underfolding stock, found on 7.62mm AKMS rifles, the AKS-74 featured more rigid and robust side-folding metallic buttstock, which folded to the left side of the gun.

Early production guns featured polymer pistol grips and wooden buttstocks and handguards. Later in production all furniture was made from polymer The "Night" version, known as AK-74N, was manufactured with the night /IR scope rail added to the left side of the receiver. The latest variation of the AK-74 family was introduced circa 1991 and replaced in production both AK-74 and AKS-74. It was the AK-74M rifle, which is still in production and currently is a standard issue rifle of the Russian army. The AK-74M externally differs from the AK-74 of late 1980s production by having the side-folding, solid black plastic buttstock and the scope rail, mounted on the left receiver as as a standard. Some minor improvements also were made in the production process and external finish of the new rifle. AK-74M retained almost all advantages and disadvantages of the earlier Kalashnikov designs, including reliability, simplicity of operations and maintenance, and less than ideal "human engineering" and ergonomics. At the present time the AK-74M, along with earlier AK-74/AKS-74 is the standard shoulder arm of the Russian Army. The plans of replacing it with the widely advertised Nikonov AN-94 assault rifle were not carried out to any significant extent - the AN-94 is (and most probably will be) issued only certain "elite" units of the Russian Army, police and the Internal Affairs Ministry troops. The AK-74 type, 5.45mm assault rifles also were manufactured in the East German, Bulgaria, Poland and Romania. Most of these designs after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact were converted to the 5.56mm NATO ammunition.

Here's another picture of a prototype:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p22/StaceyC123/Shpagin001.jpg?t=1236655207

Is that more close for you?

It's been recent that Mikhail Kalashnikov has admitted he had German help, or influence, in making his final AK 47. In other words he has been lying all these years. He even had an Stg44 while he was in the hospital recuperating from his wounds when he got the idea to conceive a new weapon in his head.

jdgabbard

10-23-2009, 05:34 AM

StarMetal

10-23-2009, 05:22 PM

Starmetal, that is an interesting write up that you've posted. But there is a lot of stuff in there that many Soviet Small Arms Experts have sworn against over the last 10-15 years. If you don't mind me asking, were did you pull that info from?

I got it off a friend that researches WWI and WWII weapons and tactics. He's handicapped and the pc and writing articles for books and magazines is his life now. It's pretty hard to stump him as he's a great researcher.

Mikhail is old now and guess he's finally giving up the facts. He admits to copying the STg44 and the round. Much like we did with the Mauser action and cartridge huh...for the 1903 and the 30-03 which later became the 30-06. I can't think of many other countries at that time that were fooling with an intermediate cartridge. Lots were with pistol/subgun cartridges.

Joe

tommygirlMT

10-23-2009, 10:02 PM

In answer to all the miscelanious stuff running around:

Fight or Flight: Some have suggested that in such a SHTF situation abandoning ones home and getting out of dodge is the best course of action and that standing your ground is the best way to get yourself killed. If you live in the city or suburbia I can’t argue with that --- however, for those of us who live on a working farm/ranch in rural areas we are better off staying where we are and holding our ground. We are one of the few who have the resources and know how to provide for ourselves and as many others as we can. Secondly when it comes to fight or flight I’ll pick fight every time except for when it’s absolutely impossible to win the fight and I don’t put a whole lot of stock into the basic theological ideas that the words “absolute” and “impossible” imply. My choice not yours --- you may have a different personality and temperament then I do.

Gas Checks, Hard Alloy, and Quality Lube & Why do you want to neck it up?: Has here ever shot a batch of reloads with a non-gas check bullet cast from throw together alloy and just tumble lubed out of a 300-Mag ????? I have, did it ONCE when I was just starting in bullet casting --- I never want to clean out a barrel like that again or see those types of groups at very short range. Yes, the 7.62x39 by itself is pretty cast friendly but a necked up version would be more friendly IMHO. Or better yet --- here is a better analogy, which makes a more cast boolit friendly rifle the 220 Swift or the 416-06 ???? Both have the same parent case the 30-06. As far as making my own gas checks --- I have some of the “Free Check” units that you use with beer can metal but I’ve found results fall short of real gas checks.

Considering using a cast bullet cartridge for defensive purposes is stupid: Tell that to anyone who packs a 38 or 44 special or 45-Colt wheel gun especially those who have saved themselves in a fire fight with one. Yes, jacketed bullets are available for such cartridges but a big flat nose thumper like what Keith would have loaded is used plenty enough in them as well.

Considering using a wildcat cartridge for defensive purposes is stupid: I admit that this portion of the debate is partially my fault because I put into the post that we are talking about a “if you only had one gun situation” the way I stated that was most definitely confusing --- I’ve got plenty of other guns chambered for a lot of popular cartridges including those that come in the “sardine cans” in-bulk that I previously mentioned. A more direct way of putting it would be I want the wildcat cast boolit specific rifle to be able to do it all if called upon to do so. Some may still think that’s stupid --- they have their opinion I have mine. IMHO the ability to use a cast boolit rifle for all but the really nasty fighting and most of the predator control and guarding of the livestock and any hunting would be beneficial so as not to deplete ones sardine can ammo unnecessarily. As I said before I will run out of jacketed bullets long before I run out of primers, powder, or casting lead. My stockpile of jacketed bullets is dismull compared to my other loading components because like probably a lot of others on this web-site my reloading as of present is mostly geared towards cast boolits.

You are a survivalist --- Survivalists actually hope this happens: Do I plan on surviving or at least giving it my best shot, do I believe in being prepared, and do I have more gear of all sorts including not just the gun stuff but a lot of the other stuff Bret4207 mentioned and know how to use it --- Yes, Absolutely !!!!! Do I hope all this stuff actually happens --- (Oops, remove word. Almost typed like I talk again.) NO !!!!!! FYI --- the meds. are the hardest part to get.

In a SHTF situation I’m just going to find the nearest person like you that stocked up and kill you and take your stuff. You are stupid to prepare it only makes you a target: You just proved my point about raiding parties attacking the “fly over country” and forcibly taking food and other necessities from honest good people who contrary to popular belief are not the hoarders but rather the PRODUCERS of that stuff that goes in your mouth and down to your belly.

The SHTF situation you laid out as an example is unrealistic and mainly fantasy: Yes some parts of it might be a little bit tainted towards the WCS but even the person who laid out my entire post and gave point by point criticism ultimately at the end of his post pointed out that in general things could indeed get as bad as I laid out and he had some of the same concerns. Looking at what happened in the Balkins was suggested and it was suggested that I turn off the TV --- I believe before I even mentioned the movie and TV show in question that I made a very clear disclaimer about such shows being less then realistic. They were mentioned as reference points to explain two apposing and different types of situations. No I havn’t done any reading or research on the Balkins but I have done both reading and research on what happened in the Ukraine and rural China when the reds took over and yes, in the Ukraine especially under the principles of communistic thought and a concentrated deliberate effort to illuminate “the middle man” the infrastructure did break down and the food didn’t get from farm to market. Where do you think I got the cannibalism points from? Those aren’t fantasy or added in for dramatic effect it has happened before and it can happen again --- might not happen the same way or for the same reason but it can happen again and I maintain that from the example of history and human nature in general it’s not a matter of if but rather when and where.

Concentrate on guns that fire rounds that you will likely face from an policing or occupying force --- 7.62X54, 7.62X51, 7.62X39, 5.45X39, 5.56,9X19 & 9X18, .45-ACP, and 5.7X28 Done --- Past Tense, along with a few others not mentioned. And if your determined enough a knife can get you one of theirs once they are here and ammo to go with it --- BUT that’s not the situation I’m talking about. In my previous SHTF situation I laid out I was very clear I’m not talking about a “Red Dawn” situation (Those planning a rebuttal --- STOP --- already explained this is an ANALOGY I’m not looking towards the southern sky for spanish speaking communist para-troopers out of a high-school class room window where the local sport team is known as the Wolverines.) I’m talking about a threat posed by “gang-banger” types from the cities raiding the countryside for food and other supplies as well as crooked private contractor thugs which you don’t mess with unless they make the first move. Taking one of them out with a knife to take their gun and ammo in most situations would involve you making the first move.

You won’t be doing any hunting --- the big game deer and elk will all be hunted to extinction and only the small critters will be left, dog, cat, rabbit, muskrat, skunk, etc. Sounds like a good use for a few cast bullet loads loaded at a sub-sonic velocity (quiet) with a minimum weight (bore size round-ball) projectile. Won’t cycle the action but I’d have one of those in the chamber with a full clip full of combat capable ammo underneath. Run into trouble or find a big tasty critter, rack the bolt and go. Yes, rabbits are good --- a whole lot better then chickens for sure. Goats are good too they are a very low maintenance critter that can eat and survive on about anything.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, now back to a wildcat cast boolit specific cartridge suitable for use in semi-automatic actions discussion:

As I previously mentioned the reason I was thinking about necking up the 7.62x39 to 8mm was to allow the use of heavier bullet slower velocity loads more suitable to cast boolit use. I also mentioned the fact that I considered other larger calibers it could be necked up to including 375-cal but when doing research on the web I found some posts by someone who had necked it up to 375 and he reported feeding problems on his 375-cal neck up job. So some on this thread have suggested that the AK (AKS for StarMetal) platform may be better suited to what I am trying to build. So, would an AK platform handle a 375 neck up job better then a SKS platform and be less prone to giving feeding problems? Thoughts anyone?

Ricochet

10-23-2009, 10:20 PM

He admits to copying the STg44 and the round. Much like we did with the Mauser action and cartridge huh...for the 1903 and the 30-03 which later became the 30-06.
Like the Germans had done earlier copying the rimless bottleneck cartridge case design and jacketed bullet from Rubin (Swiss), and copying the bore, rifling and case volume from the French 8mm Lebel. Mauser usually gets the credit for the "modern" style rifle cartridge cases, but Rubin had those things working (with boat tailed spitzer metal jacketed bullets) by the early 1880s.

Copying's gone on for a long time. Much more practical to "borrow" something that works than to reinvent the wheel.

Ricochet

10-23-2009, 10:27 PM

Or better yet --- here is a better analogy, which makes a more cast boolit friendly rifle the 220 Swift or the 416-06 ???? Both have the same parent case the 30-06.
Actually the parent case of the .220 Swift is the 6mm Lee Navy. Winchester enlarged the rim in the final version to the same diameter as the .30-06, to better fit the standard bolt face. That made it a semi-rimless case.

Bret4207

10-24-2009, 09:08 AM

TGMT- No one said anything you wrote was "stupid" so don't over react. You put forth an idea and we responded with our thoughts and opinions. As I said, if you want to try your wildcat go for it! But none of us can even guess what's around the corner and I've worn myself to a frazzle more than once trying to out guess Mr. Fate. You worry about gangbangers" and Black Water types, I worry about the common middle class working man who spent more time watching NASCAR and football and spent his money on beer and ATV's than gangbangers. Doesn't matter which it is, both are going to be trouble.

Do as you wish. Just because it makes no sense to someone else doesn't mean it won;t work for you. All we did is lay out some different thoughts.

Pat I.

10-24-2009, 09:38 AM

badgeredd

10-24-2009, 11:32 AM

Okay, for a while I've been considering what exactly would be a good all around cast bullet specific cartridge/gun combination. By all around I mean if you only had one gun and it were a servival situation --- such a gun I would expect to be fully combat capable as well as hunting capable. That just about guarentees that it be a semi-auto rifle preferably one can obtain high capacity mags. for and has been proven in battle the various Black guns such as the AR-15 and G-3 come to mind as well as such older battle rifles such as the M-1, M-14, and AK-47. Problem is that those guns don't do so well with cast bullets especially when the gas system gets plugged up with lead and lube and it's time to clean them and get them back into action in a hurry. This leads me to the SKS which I have found is about a five second gas system clean when it gets plugged up due to it's design. In addition the bottom of the receiver can be milled and modified to accept AK-47 mags in quick detach mode. So with that in mind I was doodling and figuring on taking the 7.62x39 case and sizing the shoulder back to make a shorter case and a nice cast bullet friendly neck then expand that neck to take 8mm (0.323" - 0.324") cast bullets. Rebarrel with a fast twist rifling to stablize 190 to 250 grain 8mm bullets at cast bullet velocities ranging from 1,400 to 1,800 fps. This would mean that with the heavier slower bullets in that range you wouldn't even need gas-checks with a properly hard alloy. What do you guys think of the idea?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=178&pictureid=1432

To try and stay with the original topic, here is a thread on a similar cartridge is you feel that a wildcat would be more useful (although I do have my doubts).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=64769

IMHO...one can get excellent results from an SKS with the 311291 and the same boolit in a plain base configuration. In a PB configuration the boolit goes about 180 grains with no modification to the case. With a gas check one can get very respectable ballistics...I've shot mine at a tad over 2000 FPS.

To me in a SHTF situation, I seriously doubt that one would be well served with a wildcat. Too much bother in a limited supply situation. Frankly, I believe that if one were trying to stay alive and survive, that defending ones home in a rural setting with a good bolt gun among others, would be the primary objective. In a situation of defending against a large contingent, well I guess I'd question whether any one gun would work and I certainly have doubts about ammo availability if it is a spray and pray situation.

That said, I love my wildcats but I seriously doubt any of them would be my weapon of choice.

Edd

tommygirlMT

10-24-2009, 12:19 PM

I'm not offended --- I was just trying to sum up the objections and tangents that were brought up and give a paragraph or so to each before getting back to the main subject line. In many cases I paraphrased the general bent of the objection or tangent which was usually raised by more then one person.

It will take a whole lot more then that to offend me --- I'm just stating my responses. Sorry if it they seemed a little short and to the point --- not trying to be abrasive it's just that's how I think short and to the point. And yes I wanted to see what you guys thought and which direction things would go and once it looked like most of the thread had run it's course for initial input --- then I posted again. I wouldn't have even posted the second time until things had run most of their course except for a valid question was raised about what spacificially I considered a servival situation which does have a lot of bearing on the subject under discussion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to our regular scheduled programming --- Sorry that was a good line, I just had to steal it. :twisted:

Yes, lever guns are effective and generally are chambered from the factory for cartridges that are more cast friendly then the semi-autos. Two main problems in my mind. First, lever guns can be darn picky about bullet nose shape and OAL and every load usually has to be tuned. I would even go so far as to say that when it comes to feeding I've run into more then one lever gun that was a lot pickier of an eater then a few semi-auto's. I don't want to trade one feeding problem for another and in the process loose the advantages of a semi-auto. That's like selling car with a weak transmission and then using the money to buy another car that's older with more miles and that also has a weak transmission. Same problem as before and you lost something to boot in the trade. Secondly, like I said before lever guns when they do feed and cycle correctly are great and really fast shooting --- until your tube mag runs empty then it's a long reload.

There is one AK variant that I have looked at that fires 444-Marlin rounds that is a proven performer. Several guys over on the Saiga forum have had Tromix do a rebarrel job on the Saiga-410 shotgun so that it chambers and fires the 444-Marlin cartridge apparently smooth as silk with no major issues. Two things I don't like as much about that though is that maximum mag capacity is 15 rounds --- they don't make mags. for that set-up any bigger and that cartridge is a larger heavier cartridge that means less rounds for the same amount of weight in the back-pack and more powder used up per shot. The fact that they got that big stubby cartridge to feed smooth as silk though makes me wonder if I could take the 7.62x39 neck up job all the way up to 375-cal and get it to feed in an AK even though another person who tried it couldn't get it to feed reliably in an SKS. Maybe an AK would feed it even though an SKS won't. I think the key to making it work is that those Saiga shotguns, have a thin metal "finger" thing resembling a quarter section of pipe that protrudes backwards from the barrel breach in the upper left hand corner when viewing the breach with the dust cover off, the bolt pulled, and the gun tucked into the shoulder in firing position, that the nose of the shotgun shell or in the case of the 444-Marlin conversion the nose of the bullet slides against and is guided into the chamber --- not sure if a regular AK has that but it could probably be added during a rebarrel job if that's what makes it work. Don't think anything like that could be fitted to an SKS due to the fact that it's an open top with a solid live bolt surface slamming back and forth where that finger is on a Saiga shotgun at the upper left hand side of the barrel breach and below the gas system push rod.

I know the original thought when I started this thread was to neck up to 8mm but as some have pointed out that's not a whole lot of neck-up and the next step up in calibers that I have a lot of different styles of good cast bullet molds for is 375-cal. I really don't have all that much in 338 and 35 cal.

tommygirlMT

10-24-2009, 12:20 PM

Badgeredd, you did your post while I was still working on mine --- give me a bit to check out the link to the other thread you posted.

Ricochet

10-24-2009, 04:55 PM

If the SHTF here, you're going to be in the Tribulation described in Revelation. Guns and food stockpiles aren't going to get you out of that. Pray that the Premillenialists are right and that you get caught up in the Rapture.

Bret4207

10-26-2009, 08:07 AM

TGMT, you're hung up on magazine capacity. IMO you either have to rethink that or rethink the use of the rifle in the first place. There's no reason, IMO, that a good lever or bolt gun wouldn't work for what you want. If you want a semi then I'd work with the base cartridge and find a boolit that would do what I wanted.

JohnH

10-26-2009, 12:12 PM

From what I read in your post the rifle that I think would best serve your intended purpose would be one of the lever guns in 30-30 or 35 Rem. I know you want an autoloader but you said the gun would primarily be used for everything but attack by gang banging raiders. A good lever gun will feed you, protect you, work well with cast bullets, and save you a ton of money. Might not have the sex appeal of a wildcatted AR or AK but if someone points one at me I'm heading for the hills.

Correct answer. When TSHTF there will be lots of AR's, AK's, SKS's FN-FAL's and a host of other bullet hoses to choose from laying around for the picking. Decide your flavors and stock up on some ammo, a rifle will come to you for free. In the meantime, a 30-30 will use any 30 caliber bullet from 70 to 200 grains, is manually operated eliminating many types of jamming problems, can be loaded with 22 magnum level loads for light work, and with heavy stuff for game including elk and the two legged variety. Surviving firefights requires not only prodigious amounts of ammo, one needs groups at least the size of a patrol at minimum. Avoidance is the key to survival against armed groups...

"The End of The World" according to how one sees things happens every day. If one is not living today in a manner that is consistant wtih self supporting/self sufficent principles, the likelyhood of surviving a TEOTWAWKI is unlikely, perhaps even implausible. A gun and ammo are only one part of that self sufficiency. Growing a garden, keeping small livestock, keeping and using manual power saws, axes, drills. As ridiculous as it may sound, being able to sharpen a knife is a TEOTWAWKI skill. Could you knap one from flint if need be? Can you make fire without matches? Have a flint and steel? Can you keep a fire without telling everyone in five counties about it? Being able to cook and boil water will be as, if not more important that your firearm.

The one thing I've seen people have the most trouble with is the lack of light at night. They can do without tv and radio, but after about 4 days without power, being unable to use the lights really grates on peoples nerves. When was the last time you practiced living for three days without our technological convienciences? Apart from your water faucet and stored water, where is your nearest water supply? How far will you have to carry it? Will it need purification? A person in good health can survive as long as 30 days without food (extreeme weakness, and delirium set in after 2 weeks) without water one is a goner in 7 days. Yeah, with a gun you can take someone else's, but doing so decreases the long term survival odds.

Just some food for thought is all....

JohnH

10-26-2009, 12:47 PM

Some more food for thought.....

Lots of folk seem to get carried away on the armament aspects of TEOTWAWKI senarios. What misses most are the more likely causes of non survival. In 1904 my great grand father died building a chicken coop. He dropped his hammer. On reaching down to pick it up, he jammed a weed under his fingernail. He pulled it out and thought nothing more of it. But not all of it pulled out, the wound festered under the fingernail, he got blood posioning and died from it. A weed.

There won't be ambulances running or emergeny rooms to go to. A broken bone, could easily prove fatal. Many men in died during the civil war as a result of gangrene from broken and splintered bones. Amputation, was at the time, the only way of dealing sith such injuries. It is likely that a good working knowledge of medical care will be of greater value than what kind of firearm one has. Double the need for that knowledge if you keep livestock.

If you fall and break a leg; even if it can be properly set and splinted, there will be a minimum 6 weeks before you can use that limb, with a broken leg, how does one carry water or firewood? And what of bullet wounds? One can get shot and still survive the firefight, but what after that? How will you treat wounds?

If you encounter someone wounded, how do you deal with it? And not just the wound itself, but the encounter with a wounded stranger itself raises questions of ethics and survival that most do not think of. If your group is attacked and you successfully fight it off, with the "enemy" leaving their wounded as they retreat, how will you deal with it? If you decide to treat them, have you made allowance for the supplies to do so? Are you prepared to kill them outright? Have you even thought of this, as it it not just a possibility but a probability that in a TEOTWAWKI one will be confronted with this.

Just something else to think about....

kawalekm

10-26-2009, 01:31 PM

I'm not offended --- I was just trying to sum up the objections and tangents that were brought up and give a paragraph or so to each before getting back to the main subject line.

Yes, lever guns are effective and generally are chambered from the factory for cartridges that are more cast friendly then the semi-autos. Two main problems in my mind. First, lever guns can be darn picky about bullet nose shape and OAL and every load usually has to be tuned. I would even go so far as to say that when it comes to feeding I've run into more then one lever gun that was a lot pickier of an eater then a few semi-auto's. I don't want to trade one feeding problem for another and in the process loose the advantages of a semi-auto.

You are correct TG that you will have to develop a load that feeds properly, but I myself got a Marlin lever in .44 mag that I did develop a load for, and it was a damn easy project to complete. I would say that it would be a far far more difficult project to create new cartridge that feeds well, then design ammo that works the gas system properly. If you want my opinion, you'd spend far less time (and money) developing a good load on a proven cartridge rather than breaking ground on something totally new.

I had criteria similar to you and wanted a cast bullet gun I could use in a SHTF situation. I've carried my .44 in the field and taken deer with it, so I can vouche for it's performance! You can even get it in Ruger's semi-auto carbine. The .44 is very cast bullet friendly, and the ones I make with Lyman's 430421 bullet feed perfectly in my rifle. Why spend a bucket of money re-inventing the wheel when for a few dollars you can go out and buy off the shelf everything you need?

By the way, since I decided to dedicate myself to the .44 mag, I've even learned how to make jacketed bullets from easy to buy swaging dies. Another reason to stay with off the shelf cartridges.
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=28032

mpmarty

10-26-2009, 01:35 PM

If you encounter someone wounded, how do you deal with it? And not just the wound itself, but the encounter with a wounded stranger itself raises questions of ethics and survival that most do not think of. If your group is attacked and you successfully fight it off, with the "enemy" leaving their wounded as they retreat, how will you deal with it? If you decide to treat them, have you made allowance for the supplies to do so? Are you prepared to kill them outright? Have you even thought of this, as it it not just a possibility but a probability that in a TEOTWAWKI one will be confronted with this.

Just something else to think about....

If you have to "stop and think about it" you are not gonna make it. Survivors of the enemy? What survivors? If you adopt a bunker mentality you are doomed already. Organize your neighbors if you live in a remote rural area. Move if you don't. Have fallback locations should your primary domicile become too difficult to remain in. Be prepared to be more aggressive than you would like to be and perhaps you won't meet a group more aggressive than yours. Even if civilization falls apart you still need a cohesive community within which to function. Even the mountain men of the mid nineteenth century clung together and helped each other out and their survival was tenuous at best. The most successful of them formed alliances with native tribes and the government troops as and where necessary.

Bret4207

10-26-2009, 06:31 PM

"When was the last time you practiced living for three days without our technological convienciences?

The Ice Storm of '98- 15 days, in January on the NY/Canada border. Trust me, I know what it's like!