44 cal cast bullets accuracy

[jbunny]

[smilie=b: just got back from the range. i'm still can't get my 44 mag rifles to
shoot cast lead bullets. they shoot fine with jacketed bullets. i'm just an amature
gunsmith. i made my own chamber reamers. i made the throther angle 25 deg
for the rifleing. i have lots of unique and 800X. take a boo at these targets. i have tried
quencheing when loading to harden the bullets this batch i did not quench. the modified
lyman 429421 4 cavity mould (coverted to a nose pour and the air vent grouves
deepened a bit) is casting real nice bullets. they are gingle bell bullets (frosty).
i can't believe how much faster my lee pro 4-20 pot is since i cleaned it out. the
fluxing was was caked on pretty thick all around the wall. i used to rune on #8 setting
now #5 and i'm still to hot. nor more wax fluxing for me. sory for the rant. any suggestions what to try next??? i would like to stay with unique and 800X as i have lots of it and it goes a long ways. i would like it to shoot 1 ragged hole groups at 50
yds. it this asking to much of cast?
regards
jb
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q273/MOUICH/savagetargets.jpg

[243winxb]

Looks like a Marlin micro-groove? Try it with a gas checked bullet at .430" diameter.

[jhalcott]

MAYBE the bullets NEED to be crimped to keep them from moving. Another powder might help also. 12 grains is a TOP load in my Lyman book with that bullet.

[jack19512]

I know a lot of people like Unique but I have never been able to get any decent groups using Unique in my Marlin 1894 44 mag. I use Lee molds and for whatever reason I get better accuracy with the 310 gr. boolits and either sized or shot as cast. I have never been able to get 1 ragged hole groups from 50 yards though but I am satisfied with the accuracy I am getting.

[jbunny]

Looks like a Marlin micro-groove? Try it with a gas checked bullet at .430" diameter.
i'm sorry, go to fast make mistake. the savage is a montana barrell , 1-20 twist 6 grouve, .429 bore, bullets sized to .430 NRA alox-beeswax lubed. the 5 that i had
crimped with the unique did group much better. i had not crimped any of the 800x
but i had some left and they are crimped now. will check that out next week.
thanks
jb

[243winxb]

Nothing wrong with using Alliant Unique. This is a plain base bullet shot out of a S & W M29 http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMG_3306B.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/IMG_3306B.jpg)

[doghawg]

I've never had good luck with heavy charges of Unique. I'd suggest backing off that load to 8 to 9 grains. Were you getting a lot of leading?

This target is at 25 yards but this gun will do 1 1/2" at 50.

[jbunny]

I've never had good luck with heavy charges of Unique. I'd suggest backing off that load to 8 to 9 grains. Were you getting a lot of leading?

This target is at 25 yards but this gun will do 1 1/2" at 50.
u guys are shooting nice targets with handguns to boot. i'm shooting a rifle from
the bench. the target with the light crimp had a lot better group. the 800x
shot was better than the unique, the 800x is suposed to give me an extra 100 fps.
do u suppose that the crimp with the unique and i'm assumeing the faster velosity
of the 800x is bumping the bullet bigger and shooting better????? i know the harder bullets did'nt shoot any better. i even tried h110 that i use for jacket bullets. thats
why tried casting zinc bullets. now u know the rest of the story. might have to go back
for more experiment with zinc. might even try pewter. the little blurb about pewter
on the lee web site got me thinking. they don't recomend it as it's very corrosive????
all the best to all that answered and i'm 68 today
regards
jb

[longbow]

So far, I have not had any success using the Keith style boolits in my Marlin 1894 .44 mag with microgroove rifling.

When I got the Marlin I picked up a Lyman 429421 and it has never shot better than mediocre at any range and it leaded badly. I started with Unique but went to IMR4227 and got much better results but accuracy was still mediocre.

I have had good results with both IMR4227 and H110 but generally use 4227.

I made a mould for an RNFP and groups tightened right up plus it fed much better in the Marlin. The SWC was always poor for feeding too.

I think there is some good advice above and a gas check may help too. I generally shoot plain base and do alright but a gas check certainly won't hurt and is better for top end loads.

So far my gun likes large boolits (0.431"+ groove) in RNFP or TC styles. It shoot paper patched boolits well too.

There is a group buy on now for a RanchDog style 0.432" 265 gr. mould from NOE. RanchDog design his boolits specifically for Marlins so it would be hard to go wrong if you can afford a new mould.

Longbow

[243winxb]

Metering & bridging problems- This powder can bridge in your measure. One case will get a light charge. The next case will get 1+ 1/2 powder charge, not good. Blue Dot is another one to watch. Both powder are best if used for loading shotguns. IMO

[Bret4207]

Are you sure the barrel is .429 and are you SURE your boolits are coming out .430? I've seen sizers throw smaller than marked. I would check my size and make sure my fit was up to snuff first. Then I'd start with some mid range loads, 8-10 Unique and see how it shoots. Get you fit figured out before trying any exotic alloys. I'd size as large as the throat would handle and start there.

[Leftoverdj]

A 25 degree throat angle sounds way too sharp to me. 2.5 degrees would be more like it, and I rethroated a couple of .45-70s to 1.5 degrees.

Your loads are way too hot for plain base bullets. It's base damage that is causing those wild patterns. Dawghog is about right. Drop that charge of Unique way back. He's probably right about 8-9 grains, but I'd go down to 7 and work up by half grains. Use air cooled WW. I'd guess 800X at taking about a grain more than Unique. Those PB bullets are not going to let you get anywhere close to dangerous pressure levels before accuracy vanishes,

[243winxb]

the savage is a montana barrell , 1-20 twist 6 grouve, .429 bore, There website does not list your barrel in that twist. For the 44 - 16 & 24 twists are listed. Was it a custom ordered barrel?? Is the rifling shallow button rifling like a marlin micro-groove? http://www.montanarifleman.com/

[Bucks Owin]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/262grKeith.jpg I kinda like Keith bullets in the .44. I like SR-4759 too. (Here's a group shot with 10inch .44 Flattop Blackhawk) I read somewhere (maybe Glen Fryxell) that Unique isn't especially "kind" to plain base boolits.....My most accurate .44 mag load used a 225 gr RCBS GC SWC over 20.0 grs of 4759 for 1323 fps. "Varmit shooting at 140 yds, again with 10" Flattop. These loads are by no means max velocity but were accurate, pleasant to shoot and easy on the gun.....http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/12db6a09.jpg

[Blammer]

check to make sure that your boolits are not sized after you seat them in the case.

[Dale53]

People we have a bit of a communication problem here. The OP is talking about a rifle and most are replying with comments about revolvers.

Plain base bullets generally have a velocity limit of 1400-1500 fps whether in a rifle or a revolver. Rifles work somewhat differently than revolvers - they have different needs.

When loading for a rifle, I would take a fired case (from THAT rifle) and the largest bullet that you could easily finger seat should be the "proper" bullet size for that chamber. I shoot nearly ALL plain base bullets in my revolvers (the velocity does not exceed 1400 fps in any of them except my .454 Casulls and I use gas checks on those). However, for rifle use I definitely recommend a gas check bullet of the proper size. I would also opt for a harder bullet (18 BHN or thereabouts).

If you have a good chamber and barrel, a medium hard GAS CHECK bullet of at least 18 BHN and the CORRECT SIZE, that rifle should shoot.

I lean towards the slower burning powders for rifles at the higher velocities and they give less bullet deformation.

My Marlin 25/20 uses a case full of RL-7 (too slow for .44 magnums) to drive a 70 gr cast gas check bullet at just under 2200 fps. The accuracy is ten ring groups on the fifty yard smallbore target ON DEMAND (ten shot groups). I have shot MANY perfect scores on that target (the ten ring is .87"). I don't get a high "X" count but that is a reliable ten ring rifle with a four power scope. I could probably reduce the groups a bit with a high power scope but it is set up for squirrel and other edible small game.

My Marlin 1895 Rifle (45/70) will shoot the Lee 340 gr bullet in 1.5" at 100 yards with a suitable charge of 4198 or RL-7 at black powder velocities. If I run max velocities with slower burning powders I need a gas check bullet.

Whatever you do, do NOT give up. Keep going and you can do better, MUCH better.

Dale53

[leftiye]

Are you getting leading? Plus one on load probly too hot! I shoot the 200 grain 35 cal RCBS boolit out of my H&R Handi .357 Max. with no leading at 2000 fps. There are better lubes than the NRA 50/50 formula, and they do make a difference. Boolits one or two thou bigger than groove diameter will help, actually in a rifle = use as big as will fit the freebore if there is any. I'm not clear on what you mean by a 25 degree leade angle, but between 2 and 5 degrees is probly better. Are you getting leading at the leade by any chance (this would totally destroy accuracy)? Harder lead helps with deformation and holding the rifling. Gas checks will help too. Slowest powder that gets the velocity you want is my approach (realistic velocity given alloy and lube helps too). Use standard primers if the powder will ignite well with them. As with anything you gotta do what is necessary (works) or it doesn't happen.

[skeet1]

I shoot 21 gr of WW296 in my Marlin 24" cowboy with the Lyman 429244 GC sized to .431 and although it doesn't make one ragged hole it will shoot a three inch group. I also use a heavy roll crimp.

Skeet1

[Leftoverdj]

Dale, I agree with everything you said, but that rifle should also shoot with plain base bullets and suitable powder charges. Plain base bullets usually cannot be shot as fast, but they can be shot as accurately.