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Karen
10-16-2009, 10:42 AM
Has anyone here shot 150gr bullets from 30 Carbine? I don't care about the autoloading system. I can shoot one at a time. The 110 gr bullet is too little. I want to hunt deer, but my 30-06 rifle is too heavy.

Thanks.

9.3X62AL
10-16-2009, 11:44 AM
Karen--

Welcome to the board, ma'am!

Most 30 U.S. M1 Carbines have a rifling twist rate of 1-20". I don't think a 150 grain bullet/boolit would be stabilized by that twist rate at the velocities possible in a 30 Carbine.

A lot of hunters would decry the use of a 30 Carbine on deer. For large Canadian whitetails, I would agree. For the far smaller coast blacktails or muleys I see where I live (central/east CA), the 30 Carbine with good round-nose soft-point bullets would be adequate with good shot selection and placement--but not ideal. It is legal in CA, with soft-point ammunition.

My wife and daughters are VERY fond of a small rifle I have, a Ruger 77RC. Mine is chambered in 223 Remington, but it also is available in 243 Winchester, 260 Remington, 7mm-08 (I think), and 308. Scope and all, I doubt it weighs more than 8 pounds. The little critter is ACCURATE, too. Since the usual run of bolt rifles is a bit much for folks your size to lug around, you might take a look at a lighter-weight variants to increase your game-taking ability. At its best, the 30 Carbine is a little lacking as a deer caliber.

Shiloh
10-16-2009, 11:56 AM
That is pretty heavy boolit for a carbine. As stated above, it is too light for humane kills on deer.

Although many deer have been taken with the M-1 Carbine, that hardly qualifies it as a deer caliber. If that is what you have to use, up close head shots may be the best bet.
The '06 would be a better choice.

SHiloh

oldhickory
10-16-2009, 12:04 PM
What 9.3X62AL said about the rifling twist is correct, the little bugger just won't stabilize a 150gr boolit. A 130gr is about as heavy as it gets for the little carbine as far as accuracy goes. I load the Lyman 311410, 130gr. boolit with 12.5gr of H4227 for around 1550fps. I've also made a few rds. using the LEE flat nose mold for 32/20, shoots o.k, but won't feed from the magazine.

You can duplicate any 32/20 loading with the .30 carbine. Some old timers swore by the 32/20 as a deer round. I don't think the M1 carbine is as accurate as a 32/20 lever gun in most cases though.

Besides a nice light bolt gun, a 92' Winchester or copy there-of in.44/40, .38/40, .44 mag, .45 Colt would work out nicely, I think.

R.C. Hatter
10-16-2009, 12:25 PM
:pThe .30 Carbine was never designed for use with 150 grain bullets. The Carbine was designed to be a replacement for pistols, and use by second line troops, i.e. mortar crewmen, artillerymen, signal people, truck drivers etc. The 150 grain bullet you mention would never be stabilized by the rifling of the carbine, and therefore never be accurate. Also, although legal for deer in a few states, it is woefully underpowered for the task, lacking adequate energy for quick, humane, kills. You would be more satisfactorily served by a lightweight bolt action rifle, in a caliber somewhere between .260 Remington and .30-06. The lightweight Ruger rifles are an excellent starting place.

Leftoverdj
10-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Karen, I'm pretty sure it could be done, single loading and with the right cast 150 grain bullet, but the velocity would be pitiful, down under 1600 fps. If you must hunt with an M-1 Carbine, you are not going to improve on factory soft point 110 grain bullets. They'll do the job if put through the lungs. You'd have to have the discipline to wait for a close range broadside shot.

If your finances permit, there are far better choices. I'm partial to a CZ 452 in 7.62x39. The weight is comparable to your carbine and the cartridge is comparable to the .30-30. The budget alternative would be an NEF single shot in the same caliber or in .30-30. I regularly see used NEFs and H&Rs (same thing), at about $150.

jonk
10-16-2009, 01:11 PM
If you handload a 123 grain soft point might be the ticket.

I still agree though, that carbines aren't really deer caliber guns. If it is what you have, they are certainly on par with many a handgun and fine for close range- say under 50 yards, with a good lung or spine shot. But I wouldn't bother replacing the 110 gr bullet.

beagle
10-16-2009, 02:17 PM
Karen, it may be possible as I have shot both the Lyman #311440HP and the RCBS 30-150-FN in the .30 Carbine Ruger pistol and these are in the 150 grain range. However, due to the limited case capacity of the .30 Carbine and the length of the 150 grain bullets and the density of the powders involved, it would be a balancing act to get a bullet/cartridge combination that would even chamber in the rifle and that would be a single loading proposition at best.

In the above experiments, I was able to obtain only 1200 FPS with my usable loads. This was obtainned by some shennigans such as sizing the front bands on the bullets and seating them way out (as long as the cylinder would take). Even then, I showed pressure signs that I didn't like.

Then, there's the twist as had been mentioned.

I'm not saying it's impossible because as soon as I do, someone will do it, but from the standpoint of my technical knowledge, it's not doeable./beagle

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 02:36 PM
Karen,

When I first got my carbine I didn't have a suitable mould. I sized down two bullets. One was a 124 gr RCBS TC nose 9mm and the other was a 150 gr RCBS SWC. I used a series of dies to size them down while they were lubed so the metal wouldn't migrate in to the lube groove. The 124 gr bullet shot real good. I then try the 150 gr and it shot ok. In speaking with another member on the board, I won't mention by name, said to try them at 50 yards which I did and they didn't keyhole. He said I may have a rare faster twist carbine, which I know nothing about. I checked the rifling twist using the cleaning rod, very tight patched jag, tape, and tape measure. It's the traditional 1-20 twist alright. The member then said my bullet is stubby for a 150 gr and more then likely why it stabilized. I think he's right about all that. I interpolated loads for the 150 gr.

So to answer part of your question it can be done and in shooting mine I didn't see any hard abuse on the action. The loads were really pretty low ones. Since then I've acquired a proper mould.

Joe

Leftoverdj
10-16-2009, 02:52 PM
We know the 311410 stabilizes. It's length, not weight that counts, so blunt 150s no longer than the pointy 130 will stabilize, too, if you can get them into the chamber. Beagle's 311440 is a prime example.

I'm sure it can be done, just equally sure that it's not worth doing.

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 03:01 PM
We know the 311410 stabilizes. It's length, not weight that counts, so blunt 150s no longer than the pointy 130 will stabilize, too, if you can get them into the chamber. Beagle's 311440 is a prime example.

I'm sure it can be done, just equally sure that it's not worth doing.

I agree. I feel that a jacketed bullet driven to the book max would suffice if you had to use a carbine. The poster may look into a 7.62x39 rifle of some sort.

Joe

high standard 40
10-16-2009, 03:36 PM
My brother has had good luck with the 30 Carbine and 150 gr bullets in a Contender for Silhouette. I know the twist is different though. He uses 296 powder. I'll try to find the load for you.

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 03:39 PM
Ok... I'm going to try this. :)

And yes, I could buy a new rifle.... but that's not the point.

Maybe I won't use it to hunt deer. But i need to keep a promise, and go hunt something.

I'll buy some 130 and 150 bullets to test and then buy a mold later. I'll get blunt 150's.
Ok, what powder and how much? These will be slow, so no worries about lead melting in the barrel or piston?

Thanks everyone....

I'm sure some members would be more then happy to send you some 130's. All of mine are loaded. If I were going to cast soon I'd send you some ready to go, that is lubed and gaschecked as mine is a gascheck style.

A good powder is 4227. For a 130 you can load between 10.6 to 12.7 grains. For 120 grain, should someone send you some in that weight, again 4227 and 11.0 to 13.1 grains. Best to start with the beginning load. Lyman shows the max for both those loads as the bullet compressing the powder.

Joe

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 03:51 PM
yea, I have 4227 and 296. The lyman book said don't experiment with 296. Mr Lyman sure liked unique, it's in almost every lead bullet list for rifles. My friend has extra unique, 2400, and some others I can use to test.

All those are really good. The thing about 296 is not to reduce load it. It can become dangerous that way. Don't let that discourage you from using it the right way. Used that way it's a great powder. Using a powder the right way can be said of any powder.

Joe

303Guy
10-16-2009, 03:54 PM
Karen

That's an interesting proposition! I'm thinking you could drive a 120gr RN to about 2000fps using Lil'Gun. You may have to compress the charge to get enough in but it compresses real well. I have used a loading technique with Lil'Gun in my 22 hornet which allowed me to drive a 55gr bullet to around 2700fps. The same technique may or may not work in the carbine but magazine loading would likely not work with it and gasport pressure may be too high for the action. Still, Lil'Gun produces good performance at moderate pressure with normal loading methods.

high standard 40
10-16-2009, 03:57 PM
I'm sending a PM with load data for 296.

carpetman
10-16-2009, 04:09 PM
Karen---I am very guilty of being what many consider undergunned hunting deer. I use .243 and even .22 centerfires. Both around double the velocity you will get from the 30 carbine. I think you are undergunned---now I get to tell someone that. If I were using it, I would use jacketed vs cast. You mentioned another gun is not a problem---really I'd go that route.

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 04:19 PM
Karen---I am very guilty of being what many consider undergunned hunting deer. I use .243 and even .22 centerfires. Both around double the velocity you will get from the 30 carbine. I think you are undergunned---now I get to tell someone that. If I were using it, I would use jacketed vs cast. You mentioned another gun is not a problem---really I'd go that route.

Ray,

I'll never accuse you of the 243 making you under gunned for deer. I thinks it's quite an excellent round for deer along with it's cousin the 6mm. My first rifle was a 243 Sako.

Karen I believe you would be better with a good jacketed soft nose for your carbine if you intend to hunt deer with it like Ray said. I'd also set the loads up to function the carbine fully because, hey, you may need a real quick follow up shot.

Joe

beagle
10-16-2009, 04:25 PM
Just be careful. Using a bullet that heavy will eat up powder space so you'll have to seat pretty deep. With that dinky .30 Carbine case, you can get into pressure problems real easy with traditional loads. Even Lyman's published loads for cast, with their seating depths, are compressed except for the Unique load. Just no wiggle room in this situation. Be careful as the carbines not the strongest thing in town./beagle

deltaenterprizes
10-16-2009, 04:28 PM
When I lived in the New Orleans area a couple people I knew were using 30 Carbines and SKSs to hunt wild pigs with great success with factory loads because they got good penetration.

Mike Venturino
10-16-2009, 04:36 PM
CCI/Speer just came out with a new .30 Carbine factory load with 110 grain jacketed soft point at nearly 2,000 fps from the 18 inch M1 barrel. Winchester has that 110 grain jacketed hollowpoint at about that same speed.

What no one has mentioned is that the operating rod for autoloaders like the M1 Carbine were designed for specific bullet weights. Going to extra heavy bullets can bend them.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a standing broadside shot on a deer with either that CCI/Speer or Winchester factory load.

MLV

Leftoverdj
10-16-2009, 04:52 PM
CCI/Speer just came out with a new .30 Carbine factory load with 110 grain jacketed soft point at nearly 2,000 fps from the 18 inch M1 barrel. Winchester has that 110 grain jacketed hollowpoint at about that same speed.

What no one has mentioned is that the operating rod for autoloaders like the M1 Carbine were designed for specific bullet weights. Going to extra heavy bullets can bend them.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a standing broadside shot on a deer with either that CCI/Speer or Winchester factory load.

MLV

The M1 carbine don't have an op rod to get bent.

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 05:12 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Was going to say I never heard of anyone that has bent anything in the operating system on the carbine.

Joe

beagle
10-16-2009, 06:56 PM
Me neither but I sure blew out the head of a bolt on one. Guess that's why I'm leary of the pressures in them./beagle

303Guy
10-16-2009, 07:09 PM
... 30 Carbine factory load with 110 grain jacketed soft point at nearly 2,000 fps from the 18 inch M1 barrel ...I don't know about factory ammo but Hodgdon list a loading for 2000 fps with a 110gr bullet at rather low pressure - using Lil'Gun. They also list a considerably higher pressure loading with a different powder and 2100fps.

There are two pressures one needs to watch for with the carbine - peak chamber pressure and gas port pressure.

I did mention gas port pressure. Lil'Gun will likely produce a higher gas port pressure and a lower peak pressure. Gas port pressure is probably more important than peak pressure. But, with a heavier boolit, Lil'Gun would likely change its pressure profile to produce 2000fps at a higher peak chamber pressure without raising the gas port pressure.

TAWILDCATT
10-16-2009, 07:16 PM
yrs ago I loaded 311291 in carbine for a friend.I believe I used 2400.what the charge was I will not say.ut he got 5 deer with it.he was a hunter, a real hunter.
I hunted with him in maine for many yrs then he moved to SC and in 2003 after I moved here in 2000 he past on.
I want to point out to the experts here that before cartridges were used muzzle loaders were killing deer and some did not have heavy bullets.then the henery was used and that was no more than a pistol size.the calabers first used were not that powerfull and repeaters used 32/20 and 44/40 black powder.most mainiacs jack with 22s.as do those in south.you dont need 375 H&H magnums.
lee has a 130 gr and you can get 130gr SP.or 139 gr SP.
Karen is small as she said. a single shot has a good kick,as they are light.the auto deadens the recoil.I handle recoil but I have shot for over 70 yrs and try a bertier carbine with lebel MG ammo.I shoot that another is the carcano in 7.35 cal.

Mike Venturino
10-16-2009, 08:55 PM
Op rod, operating slide.... whatever. I didn't go get the manual to be perfect. The M1 Carbine was originally called the baby Garand so big deal.

The big deal is that the little carbine was built to specs for a narrow range of bullet weight and pressure and its best to not try to make guns do stuff they weren't designed for i.e. shooting 150 grain bullets in a firearm designed specifically for 110 grain bullets. Especially when the proper 110 grain bullet will suffice.

And that's what I've got to say about that!

MLV

deltaenterprizes
10-16-2009, 09:31 PM
Op rod, operating slide.... whatever. I didn't go get the manual to be perfect. The M1 Carbine was originally called the baby Garand so big deal.

The big deal is that the little carbine was built to specs for a narrow range of bullet weight and pressure and its best to not try to make guns do stuff they weren't designed for i.e. shooting 150 grain bullets in a firearm designed specifically for 110 grain bullets. Especially when the proper 110 grain bullet will suffice.

And that's what I've got to say about that!

MLV

Amen Brother,that is how people get hurt, and gives reloading a bad name. If it had a stronger action maybe a little heavier like a 130 gr but semiautos are another story. I like my eyes too much to put a bomb that close to my face.
You can buy plenty guns for the money you would have to spend on hospital and doctor's bills. Think about it.

Leftoverdj
10-16-2009, 09:33 PM
Op rod, operating slide.... whatever. I didn't go get the manual to be perfect. The M1 Carbine was originally called the baby Garand so big deal.

The big deal is that the little carbine was built to specs for a narrow range of bullet weight and pressure and its best to not try to make guns do stuff they weren't designed for i.e. shooting 150 grain bullets in a firearm designed specifically for 110 grain bullets. Especially when the proper 110 grain bullet will suffice.

And that's what I've got to say about that!

MLV

Doesn't matter what it was called. M1 carbine has nothing in common with the M1 Garand. They are totally different systems, and the carbine does not have an op rod under any name. Bullet weight does not matter to the carbine's gas system. Only gas port pressure does, and the gas port is so close to the chamber and the suitable powder selection so limited that gas port pressure will stay in a usable range.

Conclusions are only as good as your premises, and the M1 carbine action is not remotely designed to be limited to 110 grain RN @ c. 2000 fps. They have been manufactured and sold in cartridges ranging from a proprietory 22 cf to the 9mm Win Mag. They all worked, too, even the .256 Win Mag version.

theperfessor
10-16-2009, 10:14 PM
Karen -

Welcome to site. I applaud your desire and determination to hunt something for whatever reason you have. I'm sure you can work up safe loads with different bullet weights. And even though most would consider the .30 carbine at the low end of deer rifle range I'm sure with accurate bullet placement you could kill a deer. So why not just let your rifle and your ability to shoot it be your guide?

Just put up a 6" paper plate at different ranges. Shoot five shots. Your broadside deer hunting range is whatever range you can keep all five bullets in the target. And you'll probably shoot a lot of practice and fun rounds to get ready, casting and reloading will let you shoot a lot more for the same money.

Mike V shared some information about some top notch factory loads. After you work up your own loads you might want to do a comparison to factory ammo by shooting into different media to compare penetration and wound cavity characteristics. If you can find an accurate load that gives you the type of terminal ballistics you want then you're good to go.

Hope you're successful in your efforts! :smile:

leadman
10-16-2009, 10:26 PM
I have 2 carbines and have played with differernt bullet & boolit weights. If I was to use it for deer hunting I would use a round nose soft point jacketed bullet with a full charge of 296 taken from a reliable loading manual.
One of my carbines is scoped and I have gotten MOA with the Remington RN jacketed bullet and 296 and no issues with feeding or pressure.
I have not tried the Nosler 125gr. Ballistic Tip in the carbine , but have shot deer with it out of my 300 Whisper at 2,100 fps. Worked well, no problems.

looseprojectile
10-16-2009, 10:34 PM
what do you experts call the handle that looks like and works exactly the same as the Garand and M 14 op rod. The Garand doesn't have a rod it has a tube.
Also, I broke a handle on an M1 Carbine once, guess I just named it wrong. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck--------;
Karen, I have killed many deer with a .22 Rimfire plenty of gun if you get close and put the bullet tween the eye and ear. I would buy a box of jacketed softpoint ammo for the carbine and go hunting. You can get the same results with a cast gas checked boolit. Shoot it in the right place. W296 and H110 powder was made for the carbine round.
I have to laugh at those that tell me that I have to have a super short magnum to kill a bambi.

Life is good

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 10:59 PM
what do you experts call the handle that looks like and works exactly the same as the Garand and M 14 op rod. The Garand doesn't have a rod it has a tube.
Also, I broke a handle on an M1 Carbine once, guess I just named it wrong. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck--------;
Karen, I have killed many deer with a .22 Rimfire plenty of gun if you get close and put the bullet tween the eye and ear. I would buy a box of jacketed softpoint ammo for the carbine and go hunting. You can get the same results with a cast gas checked boolit. Shoot it in the right place. W296 and H110 powder was made for the carbine round.
I have to laugh at those that tell me that I have to have a super short magnum to kill a bambi.

Life is good

That handle, on the carbine, because it's connected to, is called the slide...the slide has the handle integral to it. The part with the handle on it on the Garand is called the operating rod. The operating rod on the Garand is hollow because a spring resides inside it. Otherwise a rod being hollow has nothing to do with it being called a rod. Look at push rods on engines, many of them are hollow.

Joe

Gerry N.
10-16-2009, 11:07 PM
In my M1 Carbine I like a load of 12 gr 2400 under a 130 gr Lee bullet. It functions the rifle just fine and has an average velocity of 1750 fps. The Lee C130R is now discontinued but they have a 120 gr that's the same nose shape and works well. The 130 load is a good one for small deer at close range.

At 50 yds my Inland Carbine will print the Lee 130 gr bullets into an 8" paper plate very reliably. The area I hunt is very brushy and a long shot is forty or fifty feet. The deer are Coast Blacktails running about 120-140 lbs.

Gerry N.

303Guy
10-16-2009, 11:27 PM
W296 and H110 powder was made for the carbine roundW296 and H110 is the same powder.

Gerry N., if I may ask, did you have any issues with lead build-up in the gas system? What alloy and hardness boolit were you using? How did the boolit expansion relate to alloy and hardness? Thanks in advance.

Karen
10-16-2009, 11:36 PM
In my M1 Carbine I like a load of 12 gr 2400 under a 130 gr Lee bullet. It functions the rifle just fine and has an average velocity of 1750 fps. The Lee C130R is now discontinued but they have a 120 gr that's the same nose shape and works well. The 130 load is a good one for small deer at close range.

At 50 yds my Inland Carbine will print the Lee 130 gr bullets into an 8" paper plate very reliably. The area I hunt is very brushy and a long shot is forty or fifty feet. The deer are Coast Blacktails running about 120-140 lbs.

Gerry N.



any problem with lead melting in the gas piston or in the grooves?

StarMetal
10-16-2009, 11:42 PM
Karen,

Carbines run cast bullets pretty clean. I've never found anything in my piston except powder carbon and the bore looks great. With the proper load you should be able to get quite some number of shots from your carbine.

Joe

warf73
10-17-2009, 03:57 AM
I see no issue with Karen using a 30 carbine hunting deer if she treats the little rifle as if she was handgun hunting deer with a 357mag. Limit your shots to broadsides and ranges not going past 75~100 yards(unless its me with the handgun then I would limit my shots between 25~50 yards).

The 30 carbine with 110gr bullet has a little over 400ft. lbs. more energy at the muzzle vs. a 357mag and 158 gr. bullet.

I don’t see anyone posting about a 357mag being under gunned hunting deer.

Federal Power-Shok Ammunition 30 Carbine 110 Grain Round Nose Soft Point
Muzzle Velocity: 1990 fps
Muzzle Energy: 967 ft. lbs.

Remington Express Ammunition 30 Carbine 110 Grain Soft Point
Muzzle Velocity: 1990 fps
Muzzle Energy: 967 ft. lbs.

Winchester Super-X Ammunition 30 Carbine 110 Grain Hollow Soft Point
Muzzle Velocity: 1990 fps
Muzzle Energy: 967 ft. lbs.

VS.

Federal Power-Shok Hunting Ammunition 357 Magnum 180 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity: 1080 fps
Muzzle Energy: 465 ft. lbs.


Federal Premium 357 Magnum 158 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity: 1240 fps
Muzzle Energy: 539 ft. lbs.

Federal Premium Vital-Shok Ammunition 357 Magnum 140 Grain Barnes XPB Hollow Point Lead-Free
Muzzle Velocity:1280 fps
Muzzle Energy: 509 ft. lbs.

Bottom line is she must know the limitations of the rifle and her limitations with the rifle, it’s no different than any other hunting situation.

Gerry N.
10-17-2009, 04:28 AM
W296 and H110 is the same powder.

Gerry N., if I may ask, did you have any issues with lead build-up in the gas system? What alloy and hardness boolit were you using? How did the boolit expansion relate to alloy and hardness? Thanks in advance.

To answer both you and Karen, I have seen no lead or carbon buildup in my carbine in about 350 rounds of cast boolits fired. I tumble lube, size to .309, retumble and let 'em dry for a week or two. All boolits are Wheelweight metal shot without gas checks. I've also had no leading that I'm aware of. 'Course I'm not aware of nearly as much as I used to be. This season will be the first I'll use the carbine for deer.

So far when I clean the carbine after a shooting session, the gas piston rattles. When it seizes up, I'll buy a GP Wrench to dismount it for cleaning.

I used that bullet in a .308 Chilean 1912/61 to take a small Blacktail doe last season. I shot her broadside at about 10 yards. The bullet went right through, clipping a piece off the heart. She dropped in her tracks. That load was 1cc of Unique.

The doe weighed about 100 lbs on the hoof. Washington Coast Blacktails are little things and most "hunting" loads mess 'em up pretty bad.

Gerry N.

beagle
10-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Slide/operating rod...whatever. Mike's right. I got to thinking about this last night. There is danger in damaging the slide. There is a difference between the slides/operating rods on the M1s and M2s. The M2's designed a little heavier probably to allow full auto functioning.

I once traded for 7 barreled carbine actions with hardware. These must have been miitary unserviceables. One had the housing for the gas piston cracked and it had been welded up. It still functioned fine but as I recall, the piston was no longer removeable. Another one from the batch had a piece broken out of the slide where the piston contacts it. Looked like it had crystalized and broken. Now, that's a pretty thick section but something had caused that piston to whack it pretty good. Enough to crack a section out as big as a fingernail.

So, there is some danger to breaking these almost indestructable little rifles. Handy and fun they are but we need to use a little common sense and not try and make something out of them they're not by stretching the envelope with handloading heavier bullets.

Another thing came to mind last night also. Be sure to check state regs before hunting deer sized game with them as some states ban their use because of the cartridge size/energy level./beagle

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 11:14 AM
Slide/operating rod...whatever. Mike's right. I got to thinking about this last night. There is danger in damaging the slide. There is a difference between the slides/operating rods on the M1s and M2s. The M2's designed a little heavier probably to allow full auto functioning.

I once traded for 7 barreled carbine actions with hardware. These must have been miitary unserviceables. One had the housing for the gas piston cracked and it had been welded up. It still functioned fine but as I recall, the piston was no longer removeable. Another one from the batch had a piece broken out of the slide where the piston contacts it. Looked like it had crystalized and broken. Now, that's a pretty thick section but something had caused that piston to whack it pretty good. Enough to crack a section out as big as a fingernail.

So, there is some danger to breaking these almost indestructable little rifles. Handy and fun they are but we need to use a little common sense and not try and make something out of them they're not by stretching the envelope with handloading heavier bullets.

Another thing came to mind last night also. Be sure to check state regs before hunting deer sized game with them as some states ban their use because of the cartridge size/energy level./beagle

John,

You mentioned the M2 slide being heavier probably for full auto use. I'm no expert on the carbine, but I'd say it was heavier to control the cycling rate, not because it was going to take more of a beating. I reckon you could add that in though. I say this because I know if you add a carrier weight to an AR 15 it delays the bolt opening time.

I'd also say that Mike is right in the sense that the carbine was designed around a certain parameter, but then again so are all firearms. He was definitely off on his nomenclature though.

Joe

Bad Water Bill
10-17-2009, 11:22 AM
My carbine shooting 110 gr WW Lyman loads must have 1K rounds thru it and I still see 0 lead in the bbl. No my son never cleaned it. He just had to much fun shooting the little gun. Can the carbine kill deer? Sure.

Many years ago I got a Savage 99 in 22 Hi Power. The old logger I got it from probably KILLED more deer with it than most of us ever see. If that gun with a 70 gr boolit at 1800 fps kept him and others fed for over 60 years I think a carbine using a 40 gr heavier boolit should do the job IF you place your shot.

beagle
10-17-2009, 11:23 AM
I'd say the weight in the M-2 slide was to enhance and give more positive feeding during roc N' roll. Right. Not worth argueing about on the slide/operating rod./beagle

Leftoverdj
10-17-2009, 11:31 AM
Beagle, anything will break if you use it long enough and hard enough. You ain't gonna break an M-1 carbine by using a heavier bullet if you keep the port pressure the same, and you ain't gonna bend an op rod that ain't there to be bent. The slide on a carbine ain't remotely comparable to the op rod on a Garand. It does not surprise me that a slide can crystalize and fracture over time, but that ain't bending, nor is it indicative of anything but repetitive stress and just maybe bad heat treating.

It's the port pressure that counts, and the carbine takes off gas so close to the chamber that the pressure is going to pretty close to the chamber pressure. That's way different from designs that take the gas near the muzzle and transfer the energy by a long skinny, sometimes hollow, op rod.

Leftoverdj
10-17-2009, 11:42 AM
My carbine shooting 110 gr WW Lyman loads must have 1K rounds thru it and I still see 0 lead in the bbl. No my son never cleaned it. He just had to much fun shooting the little gun. Can the carbine kill deer? Sure.

Many years ago I got a Savage 99 in 22 Hi Power. The old logger I got it from probably KILLED more deer with it than most of us ever see. If that gun with a 70 gr boolit at 1800 fps kept him and others fed for over 60 years I think a carbine using a 40 gr heavier boolit should do the job IF you place your shot.

1800 fps? What was he feeding it? Factory specs were 2800 fps, which is a horse of a different color.

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 11:58 AM
I'd say the weight in the M-2 slide was to enhance and give more positive feeding during roc N' roll. Right. Not worth argueing about on the slide/operating rod./beagle

In addition to the heavier slide the M2's supposely used a round and heavier bolt to control the cycling rate.

Joe

mdi
10-17-2009, 12:40 PM
While the other guys are arguing about nominclature and carbines I'll jump in here. I know you stated you wanted to hunt with the M1 Carbine but have you thought of a lever gun? A Winchester Model '92 clone in .357 or .44 Mag. is a light, handy rifle/carbine that is used quite a bit fo deer. I personally think the M1 is not meant for hunting/quick kills. I've heard it said that it was best for wounding an enemy and a replacement for a handgun (which is more difficult to shoot) My 2 cents only!

Bad Water Bill
10-17-2009, 12:44 PM
Leftoverdj I took that figure from the Lyman 44th edition manual page 30 staying on the safe side as they only listed a 78 gr boolit and Carl loaded his with 70 gr boolits. Yes I got the book shortly after I got the gun in the 60s. I do not think Carl could have afforded jacketed at that time. Some of his brass was small primers also.

O.S.O.K.
10-17-2009, 12:45 PM
Op rod, operating slide.... whatever. I didn't go get the manual to be perfect. The M1 Carbine was originally called the baby Garand so big deal.

The big deal is that the little carbine was built to specs for a narrow range of bullet weight and pressure and its best to not try to make guns do stuff they weren't designed for i.e. shooting 150 grain bullets in a firearm designed specifically for 110 grain bullets. Especially when the proper 110 grain bullet will suffice.

And that's what I've got to say about that!

MLV


I agree. Mike has experimented with different boolits and bullets in the M1 Carbine and has an article in Rifle detailing the results. I think it was Rifle - could be Handloader - I subscribe to both...

Anyway, Karen, I would suggest sticking with 110 grain softpoint (jacketed) loads and being very careful to place your shots in the heart/lung area and don't exceed about 75 yards - 50 would be better. This is for two reasons - the first is the accuracy potential of the carbine is limited - regardless of how good a markswoman you are ;) The second is the light weight and rapid loss of power which really requires a closer shot.

Don't get me wrong - I am a big fan of cast boolits for hunting, but I think since you are choosing a marginal round to hunt with, you need to use the absolute optimal bullet and one that will give you every chance at a follow-up shot...

I think you may be in Cali? If so, will you be after mule deer or blacktail?

Another question: if you are in Cali, then is the area that you intend to hunt restricted to lead-free bullets? If so, then you will be very restricted in your ammo choice...

Good for you for taking up hunting and keeping your promise!

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Karen,

If you lived in the same area as me I'd loan you a pick of some nice lever actions, one seems to be tailored for you....a Model 94 Trapper in 45 Colt.

Joe

Bad Water Bill
10-17-2009, 12:54 PM
We are getting off the young lady's problem.

"Maybe I won't use it to hunt deer. But i need to keep a promise, and go hunt something."

Buying a new rifle will not keep her promise. The lady needs to know the best mold and powder to purchase to KEEP her promise. A good load would help.

O.S.O.K.
10-17-2009, 01:00 PM
As a follow-up to my earlier reply, here is the only lead-free bullet that I would load for the 30 Carbine:

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=887833

Barnes TSX 110 grain .308.

You most likely will not get this to fit your mags or cycle in your Carbine - but single loaded it should do just fine. I'd use normal 110 grain bullet load data but back off a couple grains to start. Also, if single loading - seat the bullet out to within .010" of the rifling if possible for best accuracy and case capacity.

I personally favor H110/W296 for the carbine - it's the powder developed for this cartridge by the military.

Karen
10-17-2009, 01:17 PM
Wow, that looks long, should be more accurate than a standard round nose?

O.S.O.K.
10-17-2009, 01:21 PM
Wow, that looks long, should be more accurate than a standard round nose?


Well Karen, I can't tell you as I haven't tried it in my carbine. I think if you are able to seat it out to get close to the rifling (and that may not be possible) it should give you good accuracy. I don't think it will be any better than standard loads though.

But, it should be a much much better round on the game as long as the velocity doesn't fall below about 1800 fps which I think might be the lower limit for this bullet to expand (?).

ETA: Since we are talking carbines, thought I post a pic of mine (Saginaw):
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/HPIM1692.JPG

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 01:38 PM
Wow, that looks long, should be more accurate than a standard round nose?

They costs a lot of money too, something like $35 for a box of only 50.

I think you'd really be best with the factory jacketed loads that Mike Venturino recommended.

Joe

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 01:48 PM
Wow, lots of responses.
I'm learning a lot from this. I spent several hours last night reading on this site. Lots of good info on just about everything.

My Dad gave me my Rockola on my 12th birthday. So I know it pretty well.

I have both of the m1 slides and an m2 slide. The 1st was replaced by the Army for some reason. The m2 slide is only the 2nd version of the m1 slide with a large part of the side cut out, so the other m2 parts can fit. The m2 slide has less steel and would probably crack before an m1 slide would. The same with the m2 hammer, it is an m1 hammer with part of the side of it cut off.

I have to hunt because I promised my Dad I would. He wanted me to practice the survival skills he taught me.

Yes, i live in CA. I'm from NC but have been in CA for 2 years. I need to get out of this place before I go crazy.

Karen,

The Rockola's are the more rare of the carbines thus the high collector interests. Of course everyone wants a Winchester because Winchester is Winchester after all. Mine is a pretty rare one too, it's a National Postal Meter. So please do take care of your Rockola...valuable piece of history.

I live 3 miles from NC and you're right about Kalifornia being crazy and has crazy gun laws too. Y'all get back here, ya hear.

Joe

WILCO
10-17-2009, 02:02 PM
But i need to keep a promise, and go hunt something.


You could go after coyotes with a .30 Carbine.

WILCO
10-17-2009, 02:10 PM
I need to get out of this place before I go crazy.

That's how I feel about NY. Only trouble is finding a place that offers an equal or greater amount of outdoor activities with a rifle range close by.

Karen
10-17-2009, 02:18 PM
You could go after coyotes with a .30 Carbine.

I'm sure they taste good to you. :smile:

O.S.O.K.
10-17-2009, 02:50 PM
Hogs are another option but tougher than deer IMHO. But you can just look for a smaller one - they taste better than the larger ones.

As Starmetal said, the TSX's are pricey but they may be your only option in the "condor" zones - best check where you'll be hunting now to see about that :)

And I highly recommend Texas unless you really need big mountains (bigger than the Davis Mt.s) and then I'd personally go with Colorado.

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 02:54 PM
Hogs are another option but tougher than deer IMHO. But you can just look for a smaller one - they taste better than the larger ones.

As Starmetal said, the TSX's are pricey but they may be your only option in the "condor" zones - best check where you'll be hunting now to see about that :)

And I highly recommend Texas unless you really need big mountains (bigger than the Davis Mt.s) and then I'd personally go with Colorado.

Colorado is a great state to visit and so so to hunt, but not a great place to live. For one it's become very liberal and the other....just look at it...skiing and hunting....there's not much of a polluting industry there, meaning not a great variety of jobs. Bad state to try to make a good living in, in my opinion. Yes I have lived there.

I believe the place to be now is the South.

Joe

303Guy
10-17-2009, 03:00 PM
Karen, I'm going to make a suggestion - load up cast boolits for the practicing and fun shooting but for the actual hunt, load up soft lead paper patched boolits. Slightly higher velocity is possible with patched (I would keep velocity closer to standard and use a heavier boolit). The idea of the soft lead patched boolit is for teminal performance and avoidance of leading in the bore and gas parts. In developing loads, its the vigour of the slide that must be watched. Just enough vigour to pick up a fresh round is all that is required (you know that I know). Another reason for my suggesting a heavier paper patched boolit is to keep peak chamber pressure faily early in the boolits travel - paper patching tends to lower peak chamber pressure which will raise gas port pressure and that you do not want. A heavier patched boolit will have the same effect as a jacketed bullet of normal weight.

An effect of lowering chamber pressure with the use of patched boolits is a corresponding lowering of muzzle velocity. You cannot just make up for that by increasing the powder charge because of gas port pressure - hence the heavier boolit suggestion.

Having said all that, there is nothing wrong with using factory ammo for the deer hunt either - those boolits are designed to do the job at the velocities they are designed for - at appropriate ranges.

O.S.O.K.
10-17-2009, 03:17 PM
Colorado is a great state to visit and so so to hunt, but not a great place to live. For one it's become very liberal and the other....just look at it...skiing and hunting....there's not much of a polluting industry there, meaning not a great variety of jobs. Bad state to try to make a good living in, in my opinion. Yes I have lived there.

I believe the place to be now is the South.

Joe


OK then, its settled, its Texas [smilie=l: ;)

And Karen - 303guy has a point about the paper patching - I didn't mentioned it myself because I just don't have any experience with it - but he does!

It all still hinges on the area she'll be hunting though - no lead is no lead... :neutral:

:drinks:

theperfessor
10-17-2009, 03:50 PM
I bet shooting some bouncing bunnies with a .30 carbine would be a lot of fun. Used to enjoy doing that as a kid with a .22. And probably tastier than yodel dog. Any possibilities for that where you live?

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 03:58 PM
I bet shooting some bouncing bunnies with a .30 carbine would be a lot of fun. Used to enjoy doing that as a kid with a .22. And probably tastier than yodel dog. Any possibilities for that where you live?

9.3x62 Al shoots them with a 30 Mauser Broomhandle!!!!

Joe

WILCO
10-17-2009, 04:24 PM
I'm sure they taste good to you. :smile:

Oh, I don't eat them. I like going after grey squirrels and such. I did go out for coyote once and ended up with a leg cramp.......

Karen
10-17-2009, 04:27 PM
I bet shooting some bouncing bunnies with a .30 carbine would be a lot of fun. Used to enjoy doing that as a kid with a .22. And probably tastier than yodel dog. Any possibilities for that where you live?

Well, it's really hard for me to shoot any animal. I just can't shoot a rabbit. Not unless I needed the food. Deer are hard to shoot too, but I feel I need to practice my skills of stalking, shooting, butchering an animal and storing the meat. I'll get help to carry the deer. And I have talked to a local butcher to help me cut and package the meat.

It's one thing to shoot at a target at a range. But to purposefully kill a beautiful deer is very hard for me.

StarMetal
10-17-2009, 04:43 PM
Well, it's really hard for me to shoot any animal. I just can't shoot a rabbit. Not unless I needed the food. Deer are hard to shoot too, but I feel I need to practice my skills of stalking, shooting, butchering an animal and storing the meat. I'll get help to carry the deer. And I have talked to a local butcher to help me cut and package the meat.

It's one thing to shoot at a target at a range. But to purposefully kill a beautiful deer is very hard for me.

Karen,

If the deer population isn't kept in control, especially in the high population deer states, they die a miserable death from lack of enough food and diseases. They also cause millions of dollars of repairs to automobiles. Thus the reason they are heavily regulated in many states...like Pennysylvania and Ohio to just name two.

I'll bet you've never seen how dangerous Bambi can be too. I know a fellow that raised white tail deer and his pet buck gored him to death. I swift kick from a doe's hoof can split you open.

Don't give into that anti-hunter stuff depicting deer as the innocent Bambi cartoon. I forgot to mention the thousands of dollars on crop damages too.

Your great state of NC planted the mtns near me with mountain lions as have some other states. Pa stocked coyotes and copper heads to control the small game population like turkeys. I've got word from a member here that lives in a very over populated deer area in Pa and he found out the recent last year deer kill from the wasting disease happen to turn out to be state poisoning of them!
Also an acquaintance of his got a coyote and it had a State Farm Insurance tag on his ear. Why do you think that was so Karen?

Joe

theperfessor
10-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Karen,

I can appreciate your feelings and wish more people would question the moral and ethical implications of their actions, whether it concerns hunting or any other activity. And you may well decide that after a successful stalk you might just want to lower your rifle and watch your quarry walk off. Other hunters have done that. Some find the pleasure of hunting is in the outdoor activities related to the stalk and pursuit and use a camera instead of a gun. And this is all OK.

But since you are determined to develop your hunting/survival skills, take comfort in knowing that hunters have developed a code of ethics and responsible behavior. Every deer (and rabbit) alive right now will be dead from some cause in ten years. Most of them will die an ugly death from predators, old age, disease or starvation. Without responsible hunting activities to keep deer herds at healthy, sustainable levels their deaths will just be uglier.

A hunter who harvests a deer quickly and humanely is acting in a responsible manner and is acting in a way that actually improves the survival possibilities of the remaining herd. And the money paid in license fees and taxes on guns and ammo by and large goes to habitat improvement that benefits not only game animals but all the other flora and fauna involved.

In other words, responsible hunters are doing the right thing, morally and ethically.

theperfessor
10-17-2009, 05:41 PM
I might add that I hope you are not put off by some of the posters suggesting you select a different gun or cartridge. I think they are trying to act in a responsible manner to insure that when you do finally get a chance to harvest that deer that you will have enough gun to do so quickly and humanely.

felix
10-17-2009, 05:46 PM
All beautifully said, Professor! ... felix

Bad Water Bill
10-17-2009, 06:44 PM
A friend of mine lost 160 acres of corn to an over populated deer crop. They ate the tassels off the plants before they were pollinated.

O.S.O.K.
10-17-2009, 08:37 PM
Through scientific management practices of select harvest, seasons and habitat managment, the whitetail deer is now 100 times more numerous in America than it was 100 years ago. I don't know the specifics of mule deer and blacktail but I suspect that they too are much more numerous now.

And as said - you are doing the deer herd a favor by helping to keep their numbers at a level that allows complete nourishment for the herd.

waksupi
10-17-2009, 08:48 PM
I believe if you try to shoot deer with a .30 Carbine, you are in for some heartbreak. I had one around here for a few years, and thought it a decent rifle for pack rats, but nothing larger than feral cats. It just didn't have a lot of "kill' to it.

WILCO
10-17-2009, 09:23 PM
But to purposefully kill a beautiful deer is very hard for me.

I used to feel that way about the dust bunny population in my house.
Then one day the lights went out while I was cleaning in Sector 5 and all I saw were lots of tiny yellow angry eyes...............

rockrat
10-17-2009, 09:45 PM
If you are not in the lead free zone in CA, then possibly a load consisiting of a 125br bullet designed for the 30-30 would work, probably with a 75yd or so, limitation.

303Guy
10-17-2009, 11:21 PM
Well, it's really hard for me to shoot any animal..Yup. I'm the same.

Thecyberguy
02-12-2010, 09:55 PM
So....what has happened to Karen and the 'lil 30?

I am from Maine and I know an old guide that hunted for 40 years with a 30 carbine. He shot a deer every year and some pretty big ones. If the truth be known...I bet he shot some for the "out of staters" that he guided.

He always said if he ever wounded a deer and it got away he would give up his M1 carbine. He is about 75 now and still hunts with it.

Like a lot have said. It is as good as many of the hand guns people use.

Have a good 'un, Guy

leadman
02-13-2010, 12:29 AM
I am curious also how she made out. I have no doubt that a 30 carbine will do in a deer given the proper circumstances.
I saw alot of wounded deer when I lived in Michigan in the shotgun only zone. Most were probably wounded with 12 gauge guns.
Bullet placement is everything.

Karen
02-13-2010, 04:13 AM
Funny to look up some info tonight and see this thread.
Yes, I went hunting three times this year. I saw deer, but I never had a shot I felt good about with the carbine. I shot one buck with my uncle's 30-30.

and yes... I will get a deer next year with my little carbine.

k

warf73
02-13-2010, 08:55 AM
Good to hear you got a deer.

smokemjoe
02-13-2010, 10:01 AM
DONT TRY IT, Back in the 60s a fellow loaded a 30 Carbine with a 155 cast and blowed the bolt out.

leadman
02-13-2010, 01:03 PM
Glad to hear you went out and enjoyed the outdoors.

Maybe next year you will have an opportunity with the carbine. Good to hear you were selective enough to not take a questionable shot.

Thecyberguy
02-24-2010, 09:29 PM
Congrats on going hunting and keeping your promise. I admire you for that. Good luck with your carbine, they are a fun little gun. Have a good 'un, Guy

Crash_Corrigan
02-25-2010, 07:15 AM
I am really partial to CZ rifles. I have two. One in .22 LR and the other a .223. Neither one is good for deer. However they do have a CZ rifle in 6.5. x 55 MM which is a dandy cartridge for deer. They even hunt Caribu and Moose with it in Scandanavia.

They make a fully stocked bolt action in 6.5 x 55 MM which is a dandy rifle. My friend has one and I have first dibbs on it if he ever decides to sell it. It is light and easy to handle and with a Leopold scope is a really accurate and deadly rifle. He had taken four hogs in Texas with it using 140 grain J word boolits.

I have a 6.5 on a Mauser action that I am trying to get to shoot cast boolits. So far the jury is still out but I have just started. It will group 1/2" with J word bullets at 100yds from a rest and will hold less than 3 inches at 200 and at 375 yds I can hit the steel gong all day long.

It is a highly underrated caliber in this country but in Europe it has proven to be a fine caliber and has much success as a hunting rifle. It shoots flat and with the long projectile has an excellent ballistic coefficient and holds the wind pretty good.

bassmasterking
09-08-2011, 11:31 AM
Karen

That's an interesting proposition! I'm thinking you could drive a 120gr RN to about 2000fps using Lil'Gun. You may have to compress the charge to get enough in but it compresses real well. I have used a loading technique with Lil'Gun in my 22 hornet which allowed me to drive a 55gr bullet to around 2700fps. The same technique may or may not work in the carbine but magazine loading would likely not work with it and gasport pressure may be too high for the action. Still, Lil'Gun produces good performance at moderate pressure with normal loading methods.

I was looking online for .30 carbine loads with Lil gun and noticed what you posted about your 22 hornet load, what is your loading technique and what type of rifle are you using? My hornet has a 1x12 twist and this is something that I have attempted and why I bought Lil gun in the first place. When loading 55gr FMJ to mag length I think my FPS was around 2550, will have to check my data.

bullboo1
02-24-2014, 09:03 PM
A .30 carbine has killed 9 deer in a row one per year every year using hand loaded 125 Gr. Sierria hollow point rounds at a volicity of 1835 fps using Accurate #9 loading the round...thats just in one family I know two other famailies that ahve 30 carbine and one has taken 5 dear and another 8. I got news for you a 30 carbine is a very accurate rifle and takes deer especailly close deer when your in a blind, stand or camoed up. Poachers hunt deer with 22 LR pistols and get several a night I know i have seen them arrested after I called it in and filmed then near my families land...I hate poachers and ignorance. 1835 fps with a 125 gr jacket hollow point is enough to take down deer in states like Texas and California etc plus I have seen more wild pigs then I can count taken with the same load. They take them with .223 and a 30 carbine under 100 meters has more hitting power then a .223 especailly with this load. The load is proven and used by many families but people want to spout off about how its a under powered round which is a load of bull its fine for kids and petite women plus handicapped men ...like myself from wounds I got in Iraq and Afhanistan and I saw several M 1/M 2 Carbines used there by Taliban along with Lee Enfileds plus Mosin nagants by the thousands, a few 1903s and the rare garand. The M 1 Carbine proved itself on battle fields world wide but the Ordanance Dept gave the little carbine a bad name by making **** ammo to save a few pennies per round just like they did with the new little black rifle in Veitnam and killed amnym of us guys fighting and I say us meaning all of us who fought and no one else as if you did not go and fight your not part of the .045% of Americans who fought since WWI till now. I apologize for bad typing etc I never fully bounced back from a head wound but relearned to walk and talk to an extent.