What does leading look like?

[phishfood]

I just fired the first workup rounds through my 1911 using 200 grain cast SWC. The powder was Bullseye, which is listed on the Alliant website with a max load of 4.6 grains, I started out at 4.1 grains, and loaded up two of that and every tenth grain increase up to the 4.6. I lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. I noticed considerably more "gunk" in the barrel after firing, but not knowing what leading looks like, I don't know if that is what is going on.

Anyone care to clue me in as to how to identify leading?

[Ricochet]

Mostly it looks like silvery gray streaks in the grooves and on the lands. Sometimes it gets to be a pretty uniform silvery coating; then you've got a problem. When it's really bad, as with my cap and ball Walker replica revolver with the chambers .006" smaller than the barrel's groove diameter, the lead fills the rifling grooves and leaves bristles pointing into the bore like a battery terminal cleaning brush! Leave that silvery gray stuff alone in the bore for a while, and it turns powdery gray or white. (Don't try that if you've been burning Pyrodex or black powder, or using corrosive primed ammo.)

[phishfood]

Thanks!

Yes, that appears to be what it is. I have brushed and patched it with #9 several times now, and while it appears to be gone from the lands, some of it is still hanging on in the grooves, mostly within the first 1/2" of the barrel. Oh well, I will try a few more passes and see if it will disappear.

[Ricochet]

What diameter are your boolits? Throat leading may mean they're on the small side.

[462]

phishfood,

Leading in the last 1/2" of the barrel sounds like the boolit is running out of lube. I don't use Lee Liquid Alox, but have read here that two coats are better than one. Are you sizing? If so, you need to apply another coat, afterwards.

[phishfood]

The leading is in the first 1/2" of the barrel, just past the chamber.

I just checked the diameter of 5 or 6 different boolits, and the measurement seems to vary slightly from one to the next, and from where on the bands I check, both up and down and at different points around the outside of each individual one. All of the measurements are inside of .450 and .453, however. This is post-lube, as I hadn't remembered muy Dad's old micrometer until after I lubed them. And before you ask, no, I have not slugged my barrel, asI have not come up with a way to cast a round ball or cylinder close to that diameter as of yet.

[Blammer]

make sure your seating procedure doesn't also "size" the boolits in the case.

[Edubya]

Cast a couple of your boolits with soft lead, i.e., tape on wheel weights and get a dowel that is just slightly small than your barrel and bang the soft cast boolit through then measure it.
EW

[Down South]

Do a search for slugging a barrel. Do that and then measure against your boolits after you have slugged the barrel and see how they compare. LLA ain't the best but will work well I hear. Two light coats are required sometimes.

On edit, listen to Blammer. If you are using a Lee FCD then you may be sizing your boolits down too small.

[markinalpine]

1) Other members here have mentioned using Kroil to swab the barrel, allow it to soak in, then scrub out with a bore brush. Others have recommended wrapping a few strands from a COPPER Chore Boy pot scrubber (not copper washed steel copy) around the bristles of a bore brush, and using that to de-lead.

2) I lube my 1911 boolits with JPW. haven't had any leading yet, but I did slug my barrel (measured at .451), and size to .452.

Just lucky, I guess :bigsmyl2:
Mark :coffeecom

[462]

Oops, wrong end of the barrel...

Sounds like the boolit is too small.

I can speak to the seating die down-sizing the boolit. Make up a dummy round, pull the boolit and measure it.

[phishfood]

Thanks for all of the help. I will be putting these suggestions to use in the near future, and will post results.

[Gohon]

The Lee FCD for the 45 ACP doesn't have the sizing ring in it so it won't size down the bullet.

I think you have a couple problems going on here. (1) The Alliant web site I looked at only shows one load for a 45 ACP with a cast 200 grain SWC using Bullseye and that is 4.6 grains at 807 fps and that is not a max load, probable a starting load. (2) Hodgdon shows 4.6 to 6.3 grains using the same items and (3) Lyman shows 4.9 to 6.2 grains.

Since you're getting a measurement as low as .450 on a lubed LLA bullet I suspect you are shooting to small of a bullet and to slow to have any bump up to seal the bore.

My 1911 shooting a 200 grain cast RNFP sized at .452 with 4.9 grains Bullseye and lubed with LLA shows no sign of leading. I haven't slugged by bore either.

[Bloodman14]

Buy a box of .454 dia. Cap & Ball round balls (they are pure lead) to slug your barrel; save a few for future slug jobs, and the rest as sweetener for your alloy.

[markinalpine]

The Lee FCD for the 45 ACP doesn't have the sizing ring in it so it won't size down the bullet.



Yes they do. The .45 AP case is spec'd to .475 at the base, and my Lee FCD measures the same, or as near as I can measure with the inside prongs on my calipers. So it won't swage your boolit down, unless you're stuffing some honkin'fat boolits in the cases. :bigsmyl2:
Don't have any pin guages, yet.


Mark :coffeecom

[Echo]

(1) The Alliant web site I looked at only shows one load for a 45 ACP with a cast 200 grain SWC using Bullseye and that is 4.6 grains at 807 fps and that is not a max load, probable a starting load.

4.6 is definitely NOT a starting load. I load my .45ACP's with 3.6 grs of BE under a 200 gr SWC (Lyman 452460) - 3.5 grs is a standard target loading. My guns cycle well w/3.6, and are accurate enough...

[Gohon]

Yes they do. The .45 AP case is spec'd to .475 at the base,

Look again...........the 45 ACP FCD does not have the carbide sizing ring in it that you find in something like the 45 Colt. It might meet certain specs but it does not have a sizing ring.


4.6 is definitely NOT a starting load.

Really?????? Latest edition of Loadbooks USA, Hodgdon section page 5, starting load is 4.6 and their max load is 6.3 grains. Lymans section page 31, starting load is 4.9 and their max load is 6.2 grains. Call it what you want but Hodgdon says it is a starting load and Lyman calls it below starting. What Alliant is listing the load as, is not clear but as you know load books have a very wide area the place min and max loads in. Since two reputable sources have starting loads at or above the single load on Alliants site I think the odds are it is their starting load or very close to it.

[Ricochet]

Lee does sell their Carbide Factory Crimp Die for the .45 ACP, #90864. Same model recommended for the .45 Auto Rim and .45 Schofield. I've got it. It will smooth down a bulged case from an oversized boolit so the cartridge will chamber freely, but doesn't seem to size down one with a .452" boolit properly seated in it.

Since I learned not to squeeze the sprue handle of Lee 6-hole moulds I don't have the fat boolit problem anymore, but it used to give me fits. The Carbide Factory Crimp Die made them work with less effort than sizing the boolits.

[Gohon]

You're right.....I just checked their web site and they do make a carbide crimp die for the 45 ACP. The one I have is #90785 which is the standard taper crimp with no sizing ring.

[243winxb]

All of the measurements are inside of .450 and .453, Undersize bullets cause leading. Accuracy will not be good if you have leading. .450" is to small. Cast bullet leading

A clue to what is causing the leading is where the leading first begins to appear. If it appears near the chamber, chances are that bullet diameter or hardness are the cause.

A diameter too small and/or too hard an alloy will allow high pressure gas to leak past the bullet, which erodes the bullet and leaves leading near the chamber.

If the leading first appears on the leading edge of the rifling (if you imagine the bullet being pushed through the barrel, you will note that one edge of the rifling does most of the work of imparting a spin to the bullet. This is the edge you see when you look through the barrel from the breech end) the bullet might be too soft, and/or the velocity too high.

If the leading appears in the second half of the barrel, the bullet is running out of lube. You should see a star shaped pattern of lube accumulate on the muzzle. This is an indication that there is a little excess lube.

[phishfood]

My dies are RCBS carbide, part#18915. The cases I am using right now are CBC, aka Magtechs. The bullets are leaving a slight bulge in the casing, some cases more than others. Perhaps the two different cavities in my mold are throwing different dimensions?

Anyway, I am going to slug the barrel sometime today, and see what that tells me. Right now, though, I have to get started bottling my beer. Homebrew and reloads, life is definitely good.

[243winxb]

The bullets are leaving a slight bulge in the casing, some cases more than others. If the bulge is at the base of the bullet, this can be normal depending on the die set. Your bullets at .453" will show more of course. Bullets that are undersized at .450" will show little to none i would guess. Get a sizer so that the finished bullet is .452"

[Ricochet]

If you're using a 6-cavity Lee mould, a common cause of having several diameters of boolits, some oversize, is squeezing the sprue plate handle as you hold the mould handles closed. Pressure on the sprue plate handle makes the front end of the blocks spring apart. Close the sprue plate, then take your hand off it. That caused me much grief before I figured it out.

[phishfood]

Well, the barrel slug results are in.

To make a slug, I used a center punch to indent the back of one of the boolits, then beat a small ball bearing into that to spread the rear of the boolit. I got it up to around 4.7, and beat it through the barrel using a long 3/8" bolt wrapped in masking tape.

Anyway, the bore is just a shade over .450. So I guess it might be possible that the smaller diameter boolits are causing the leading?

I have several rounds loaded at 4.2 grains. I think I will go shoot those and see what the bore looks like.

Oh, and while I have a 2 hole Lee mold, I will definitely remember that tip if I get a 6-cylinder.

[phishfood]

OK, 7 rounds later, I have some leading. Not as much as the first time, but of course I fired 12 rounds at that time.

I managed to find 3 of the spent bullets. While the impact with the sand wasn't kind to them, on one of them it seemed as though the grooves were making good contact with the boolit, on the others, I just couldn't tell.

[StarMetal]

Look again...........the 45 ACP FCD does not have the carbide sizing ring in it that you find in something like the 45 Colt. It might meet certain specs but it does not have a sizing ring.



Really?????? Latest edition of Loadbooks USA, Hodgdon section page 5, starting load is 4.6 and their max load is 6.3 grains. Lymans section page 31, starting load is 4.9 and their max load is 6.2 grains. Call it what you want but Hodgdon says it is a starting load and Lyman calls it below starting. What Alliant is listing the load as, is not clear but as you know load books have a very wide area the place min and max loads in. Since two reputable sources have starting loads at or above the single load on Alliants site I think the odds are it is their starting load or very close to it.

I can tell you that the Lyman cast manual doesn't list any bullet weight over 5.0 grains. I just got off the Alliant website and for a 200 grain SWC they just said 4.6 grains. I've shot lots of Bullseyes and I'm telling you the loads you stated here are way too hot. In I want to see you shoot shoot 6.3 grains of it in your 45acp...okay? One more thing the standard bullseye target shooting load that was famous for that powder was 4.0 grains.

Joe

[madcaster]

Guys,I do remember an intresting post in Yahoo Groups,Cast Bullet section,the poster said that to ensure all leading is removed when you THINK it is,is to use a red cleaning patch,with a lead removing agent.The lead shows up very well against the color red,so it would help.
May not help a lot here,but I hope you can use it!

[Gohon]

You really need to pay attention Joe. I've already said the Alliant web site list only one load at 4.6 grains, twice now I think. You could have saved yourself a trip. I also stated very clearly that I was using 4.9 grains of Bullseys in my loads so if you want to see 6.3 grains used then use it yourself. I never said 4.6 grains was a starting load.....what I said was "it probable was a starting load" which was just an opinion since Alliant didn't list the load as min, max or other. If it is not then it is not.

As for the loads I listed, I identified the load book that they came from. I said the data came from the Lyman section. I didn't say it came from Lymans published load manual but I am guilty of assuming their information came from Lyman as I don't think Loadbooks USA does their own testing but I could be wrong about that. But those particular loads came from somewhere and they are in print this very day in most sporting goods stores. The Lyman section just as well as the RCBS section are loads that used cast bullets from their moulds. If you have a problem with their data then argue with them. I made no claims other than to list their data and if you think they are in error then contact them and see if they agree with you, but don't come jumping down my throat. Do a quick search with Google and type in '45 ACP with Bullseye' and you will find scores of others on different forums saying they are using over 5.0 grains of Bullseye and many of them listing 6.0 grains as their load. I didn't read where any of them said their gun blew up.

[phishfood]

I have been working with this more today.

When I cast this batch, I had cleaned the mold and then "colored" the entire inside surface of the cavities with a #2 pencil. Someone mentioned in the past that this could very likely take up a little room and cast undersized boolits. So this morning I went to the mold with brake cleaner and an old toothbrush. I then used a couple of matches to smoke the inside of the cavities.

I cast a few this morning, and while overall the sizes where larger, some places out at .455, on just about everyone I can find a spot that is close to .450.

One other thing that I have noticed is that the leading, at least after 7 rounds, is almost totally confined to the top of the barrel. The very top groove or two is the worst, getting progressively less on the sides, with little to none on the bottom. That doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I have tried loads from 4.0 all the way up to 4.6, and there doesn't seem to much difference there.

My thought at this point is that the boolits being, in spots, so small is causing my problems, but I think that I will try to cast up 100 or so with the cleaner, smoked mold and see what happens.

Edit to add: I don't have a bullet puller just yet, but I did take a Dremel to a dummy round I had made up and measured the boolit. The seating/crimping process does not seem to be the culprit, as the measurement is the same as unloaded boolits.

[Jumping Frog]

Although the discussion has moved past this, your original question asked what leading looked like. I thought I'd link these pictures, below.

Also, I thought I'd mention that I was complaining about my boolits casting at .450 in the thread UPDATE: Undersized boolits from Lyman 4 cavity #452630 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=625623#post625623).

Well, when I added tin to my WW, the boolits started dropping at .452-.453.

Anyway, here are your pics:
Barrel before shooting:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/DSCF0997.jpg

Barrel after shooting 160 rounds:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/DSCF1094-2.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/DSCF1096-2.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/DSCF1098-2.jpg

[madcaster]

Sir Jumping Frog,
You deserve a big box of #0000 steel wool for being so helpful to another![smilie=l:

[ScottJ]

Great pics Jumping Frog and makes me feel bad for worrying about a little lead discoloration I've had to wash out of a couple of barrels.

That be some serious leading.

[Jumping Frog]

You deserve a big box of #0000 steel wool
I'm pretty partial to Copper Chore Boy, myself! :grin:

[The Dove]

Hey Frog

How soft were those boolits????? Those 160 rounds made a hellofalota leadin'. Those are great pics amigo and many thanks.

The Dove

[phishfood]

Thanks for the pics. I think you had it a little worse than I, although after 45 rounds yesterday, I can see how that much leading can occur.

I am going to try loading up some of the latest castings, and see what happens. I am not overly hopeful.

Inspecting the boolits, it LOOKS like I am getting really good fillout. But what have you found is a good source of tin? Maybe some 95/5 plumbing solder?

[Cloudpeak]

Well, when I added tin to my WW, the boolits started dropping at .452-.453.

Jumping Frog, Did your leading problem go away with the "new, improved" bullets?


ScottJ said: That be some serious leading.

Naw, that's not serious leading. Serious leading was firing factory "copper washed" .357 magnum factory rounds (Remington as I remember) through a Ruger single action 35-40 years ago. A box of those and you had a smooth bore:-(

[Ricochet]

Winchester-Western used to put out those copper washed soft lead bullets, named "Luballoy." Some of their ordinary copper jacketed rifle loads carried that moniker, too. The lead ones looked just like copper washed .22 bullets. I don't think the copper added anything to their performance. I did get some samples of commercial cast 405 grain .45-70s 10-12 years ago that were copper washed, and lubed with some hard red stuff. They leaded a bit at ~1800 FPS.

Winchester-Western and Remington-Peters both originally loaded their .44 Magnums with gas checked soft swaged 240 grain SWCs, with or without the plating. I always thought those were great bullets, and bought all I could of the (unplated) Winchester ones when they quit making them. I still have a few. They'd've been better with a better lube than the hard dry paraffin wax they dipped 'em in, just like the stuff on .22s. But with the gas checks they didn't lead problematically, they shot well, and they expanded more consistently than the JHP or SP bullets.

[phishfood]

Just an update.

After multiple rounds of using various gritty substances on boolits to "grind" out the inside of the mold cavities, I finally managed to cast some boolits that are running about .453. The leading after 120 rounds is non-existent, so I think that I have the problem whipped.

Thanks to all who have responded.

Now I need several hundred, or maybe thousand, pounds more wheelweights, maybe a cleaner burning powder, some cheaper primers, more time to reload, more time to cast, I think that this is a disease without any cure.............

[geargnasher]

Don't you just love fixing brand-new stuff so it works?

I think you proved what everyone says about fit being king and LLA DOES work in reasonable applications.

Can't help you with the rest of your problems except maybe the cleaner powder, I use Titegroup and lubed with two light coats of LLA/JPW/mineral spirits in my .45 Kimber, run up to about 860 fps with no leading, but requires the fattest boolit I can get to chamber. Very clean with no perceptable smoke.

Happy shooting,

Gear