Crimping Phobia!

[lefty_red]

I'm think, among other things, that I'm really crimping too hard and its causing my bullets to deform and giving me flyers. Well, I'm seatings these suckers as deep and they go and running through my Lee FCD to size them. Now, do they REALLY need a crimp? I'm not sizing the bullet BTW, well not the non-GC ones anyways. I'm using some lighter loads also.

Now, on some 295 grain beast I got, The take up about half of the 41's case already, so I'm thinking they really don't need a crimp either. I'm I right?

Jerry

[lovedogs]

Why not just do a lighter crimp? You didn't say what powder you're using or what kind of gun you're shooting. Using some of the slow powders you may need some crimp to get the powder to ignite well so you get consistent velocities. Are you shooting a revolver or a Contender? With a single-shot you don't need a crimp to prevent pulling a bullet under recoil but may need one to get the powder to act right.

[lefty_red]

Sorry, its a Ruger Blackhawk. And I am using BLue Dot right now, but MIGHT use some H110 just to try out. I am also using Universal Clays for the lighter loads.

And I do plan on giving it a lighter crimp, I usually, usally, corect my mistakes when found out. Especially with the lighter 210-240 grain bullets. But these 295 grains are hunks of lead, long and heavier. I was wondering if they even needed a crimp due to being in the case so long. I just didn't want to deform them at all. Plus, tehy are pretty SNUG in the Ruger's cyclinder.

Jerry

[44man]

You MUST have a crimp in a revolver or the boolits will pull under recoil and tie up the gun plus any that move will have different internal capacity. You do not want to size the case and boolit when crimping.
They must be firm enough to hold a boolit under recoil from 5 to 10 shots in the other chambers. You don't want them crimped so hard that you damage the brass or boolit either. Slow powders do not need a super tight crimp if your case tension is tight enough.
The heavier the boolit, the higher the recoil, the higher the boolits inertia and the easier it is for a boolit to move out of the case. Your thinking is backwards on that issue.

[Lloyd Smale]

in a revolver you will run into more problems with bullet jump and accuracy with to light of a crimp then with to heavy. Especially when you get into slow burning powders.

[Dale53]

Neck tension is the thing you need. Too heavy a crimp can actually reduce neck tension. Strong neck tension, at least .003" less on the case I.D. (than bullet diameter) to hold the bullet securely and promote burning of slow (for a pistol) powders. Then a moderate crimp to keep the bullet from moving forward is the prescription that Ihave been using for thousands of shots and many, many years.

I haven't loaded the .41 magnum but have loaded thousands of .44 magnum and a similar amount of .357 magnum. The same prescription works for both.

Dale53

[Bucks Owin]

I can sympathize with your dilemma lefty red. Too much crimp can loosen and/or damage the boolit's base when fired. Not enough crimp louses up uniform bowder burn, especially with the "slow" powders....

It's almost enough to cause one to buy a single shot pistol and forget crimping altogether! LOL (Or single load their wheelgun!)

Dennis :-D

[9.3X62AL]

I agree with 44 Man here regarding the results of heavier (longer) boolits in a given caliber. I've loaded revolver rounds for close to 30 years, and only recently had my first tied-up cylinder from boolits creeping out under recoil. The offending combination was the Lee WFN 300 grain LBT plagiarizer--15.0 grains of 2400--and not enough crimp into those shallow Lee crimp grooves, obviously. Besides creating ballistic havoc, they are a PITA to deal with.

The deep crimping grooves on Lyman-made Keith and Thompson SWC boolit designs are a very fine thing. These allow you to seat boolits a little deeper than the edge of the groove, then roll the crimp into place without distortion of the boolit sidewall or the side-effect of loosening boolit pull due to excessive end-on force "curling" the case away from the boolit sidewall.

[lefty_red]

OK let's review Crimping 001, Crimping for Dunnnies.....

How does the Lee FCD "crimp" anyways? Does it "know" to roll or taper crimp automaticly? Have do you get a "rolled" crimp?

Do I have to use the "crimp ring" are can I just seat the bullet out as far as possible and let her rip?

How do you measure "neck tension" and is it curable with an anti-depression med?

Seriously, I'm pretty confused here!

Jerry, dazed and confussed....

[Cherokee]

Since I don't use Lee FCD, I can not comment on that.

By "crimp ring" are you referring to the crimp groove of the bullet ? Sounds like that is what you mean. In that case, no, you don't have to use it. You can crimp into the driving band but not as heavily because you are rolling the case mouth into the bullet and may bulge the case walls away from the bullet.

I suggest you use the crimp groove provided on the bullet.

Neck tension can be tested this way. Place an uncrimped loaded round on your bench with the bullet agaist the surface. Lean your weight on the reverse end of the round and try to push the bullet into the case. If successful, need more case tension. If unsucessful, good. Increase case tension by reducing the diameter of your expander.

Just my 2 cents - others should chime in.

[Dale53]

Deputy Al;
>>>Lee WFN 300 grain LBT plagiarizer<<<
I "resemble" that remark:mrgreen: when Frank and I "designed" that bullet we copied several different bullet features to give us what we wanted, including a high performance bullet mould that "Joe Ordinary" could afford to buy. Elmer Keith freely admitted that he copied the nose from his famous bullets from a Harry Pope's design schuetzen rifle bullet. Few of us ever invent anything. We build on what has gone before us and I daily give thanks to the hard work that everyone before us has given to the human race.

>>>The deep crimping grooves on Lyman-made Keith and Thompson SWC boolit designs are a very fine thing.<<<

I agree wholeheartedly with this. However, it is difficult to find room for such a crimp groove when you are trying to make TWO crimp grooves so that a particular bullet can be used in most current and past revolvers and rifles. For instance, the great Keith 358429 has too long a nose to be used in many revolvers if the 'proper' crimp groove is used. We tried to avoid that and for the most part have been successful.

I have personally not had ANY problems with the small crimp grooves in the Lee C430 310 but varied techniques and varied revolvers that we all use can cause any number of unforeseen situations. Just simply the matter of bullet tension (size of bullet, hardness of alloy, size of expander, and size of FL sizer, to name just a few). Serious case neck tension has been a big help for me. I generally have decent case neck tension and no more than a "moderate" crimp.

Deputy Al, this is no way to be considered a "flame" but merely entering in to a good discussion. Frankly, I respect you and your posts...

Dale53

[Dale53]

Lefty Red;
Case neck tension can be "measured" by actually measuring the inside neck diameter of your sized case just before seating a bullet. Then measure the bullet. The bullet should be "larger" than the case neck internal diameter. How "MUCH" larger is a matter of judgement. Elmer Keith suggested that for the .44 magnum that as much as .006" difference could be used without losing accuracy. Only actual tests with your equipment will show what it does to accuracy in your case. I believe that .003" interference fit is enough.

The Lee Factory Crimp actually is several different (three) crimp dies. There is one for straight wall cases that we are talking about here. There is also the FC die for bottle neck pistol cases and the "Collet type" rifle FC die.

Straight cases: The Lee die has a carbide ring in the base of the die so that when you insert your loaded round with bullet seated but NOT crimped, the ring insures that the case will fit a SAAMI chamber (ALL standard chambers). It irons out any bulge created by seating the bullet, etc. In addition, there is a separate crimping "screw" that is fully adjustable in the top of the die. You can crimp any degree that you wish by full adjustment of the screw. This crimping will take place where you want it to on the case mouth.

Understand, that with the Factory Crimp die with straight cases that you seat the bullet in your regular seating die, but you have it backed off so IT does not crimp at all. This is a GOOD idea as you will have better results by seating in one operation and crimping in another (you don't roll the lead ahead of the die like you CAN when you seat and crimp in the same operation). The crimping is done solely by the Factory Crimp Die.

Dale53

[44man]

Contrary to what a lot of guys think, the effect on the burn rate of a slow powder will show no difference between the proper, firm crimp and one that is over crimped. The deciding factor is case tension.
Slide a boolit in an over expanded case and then apply the tightest crimp you can get to make the powder burn better is an effort in futility.
Even using the proper dies and expander will prove fruitless if the boolits are so soft that the brass sizes them down when seating and crimping. The loss of case tension coupled with a boolit that is now too small just adds two more things that will cause a loss af accuracy. The boolit must be hard enough to resist sizing by the brass and should expand the case when seated without losing the original boolit diameter, then a firm crimp to hold the boolit under repeated recoil is all that is needed. Any crimp die that sizes a loaded case and boolit will give very poor results. These will only work with a tough jacketed bullet that can resist sizing. Then I have doubts because the brass is messed with. If the expander is right and case tension is good, why re-size a case with a crimp die?
The Redding profile crimp dies work very well and give me the most accurate loads. They will not size anything but will prevent too tight of a crimp from raising a bulge below the crimp. I still do not over crimp with them. Take a look at a factory .454 round! That is a full profile crimp. It is so hard that brass is ruined for repeated loadings. That crimp will ruin cast boolits.
Dale53 has the right answer.
Deputy al, I have used the Lee boolit for years with MUCH heavier loads then you have, with no problems. I have cycled one case over and over while shooting the other chambers without the boolit moving. Just needs a FIRM but not overly tight crimp. It is just something you get a feel for, I can't explain it. I can only say to play with it until boolits don't move but don't get carried away by overdoing it. I would look at your case tension if a decent crimp allows a boolit to move. Also your boolit diameter and hardness.
I SWEAR by Hornady dies! Most accurate loads in any revolver, period! They shoot as good as my .44 bench rest dies I had custom made.

[Dale53]

44man;

>>>If the expander is right and case tension is good, why re-size a case with a crimp die?<<<

The Lee Factory Crimp die will NOT re-size to any extent unless there is a problem with the loaded round. I look at it as a "fail safe" situation. If a case is slightly too long and you don't catch it before the final crimp, the crimp, as you know, will then be too heavy and can actually cause the case to bulge. This "bulge" can prevent you from seating the case in a cylinder or cause a failure to feed in an auto. While the round may not meet your best standards it will chamber and fire just fine.

I sure wish I had such a die when I was shooting IPSC back in the seventies and eighties. I averaged 15,000 rounds a year for five years (75,000 rounds). I believe that the Factory Crimp Die would have been an additional piece of insurance. I can only remember one failure to feed when it counted (I had good equipment and I personally made sure I had good ammo) and that was not caused by defective ammo (my thumb was pressed so hard against the side of the slide that I retarded the slide in its backwards travel:roll:. Just simple operator error...

Dale53

[44man]

Dale, I don't have any Lee crimp dies, so I don't know how they work. But I keep reading about guys sizing the load when they crimp. I have read so many posts saying this that I don't know what to believe. I can understand if someone has real oversize boolits that are tight in the crimp die.
I was not talking about long brass being crimped too hard.
Like I said, the Redding does not size but is close enough to the brass to keep it from bulging so that a full profile crimp can be applied. From what you say, the Lee will do the same thing. I see no need for that hard a crimp!
So I have to wonder if they are crimping so hard or the cases are too long, that they are sizing the bulge off.
You are 100% correct in everything you have posted. What I question is what other guys say about the crimp die sizing the brass and boolit. I can only assume they are doing something wrong.
BUT, if someone needs a greatly oversize boolit that the crimp die doesn't accommodate, then the crimp die needs to be lapped out.

[StarMetal]

44man,

The factory crimp dies have collet inside the die body that is sectioned into four fingers. At the very top of the collet, where the crimping process is performed, the fingers have little raised areas on them. The collet also protruded from the bottom of the die body. You adjust the die body down until the protruding collet touches the shell holder. You don't what to put a loaded round in and have the die adjusted so that the ram cams over while pressing on that the protruding collet because for one it might damage the die and it's not necessary to do this to get a good crimp. You want to adjust it so that the ram presses up the collet, without caming over, and crimps the round. When you have a cartridge in the shell holder and you run the ram up the bullet protrudes from the top of the die (in rifle cartridges only, you don't see the bullet in the pistol factory crimp dies) and the collet with it's little raised fingers crim the very end of the case mouth. Only the raised portion of the fingers touch and crimp the case mouth. There's no way for the whole case mouth to get swages down unless the round is way too fat or using the wrong die, or maybe overcrimping by over camming, which usually destroys the die.

Joe

[lefty_red]

OK I'm gong to go over my notes here...

1)it really doesn't matter where I seat my bullet
2)if I have tight necks, then crimping is less of a factor
3)I seat my bullets and then crimp later with the FCD
4)the FCD will not "undersize" my oversized bullets, it get the brass and bullet into specs "just enough" to fit my cyclinder.
5)try a lighter crimp and then work up from there
6)seat my bullets as far out as possible
7)wrestling isn't fake

I think I'm ready for the finals!
Jerry

[44man]

Thanks Joe, good explanation.

[Bucks Owin]

Contrary to what a lot of guys think, the effect on the burn rate of a slow powder will show no difference between the proper, firm crimp and one that is over crimped. The deciding factor is case tension.
Slide a boolit in an over expanded case and then apply the tightest crimp you can get to make the powder burn better is an effort in futility.


I agree if the expander is too big, crimping will do little to help bullet pull. As has been said before elsewhere, "extra tight" crimping can actually LOOSEN the bullet in the case...

However, initial resistance of the boolit does affect extreme spread velocities and standard deviation in my testing with slow powders......(And even not so slow)

FWIW,

Dennis

[44man]

Bucks, yes, I can see the brass getting looser with a heavy hand on a roll crimp die that does not support the case. Then the dreaded bulge shows up.
It makes me wonder if some guys realize the tremendous pressure a loading press can apply with a little handle pull. Oh, hell, the crimp didn't feel tight, Have to stand up and put all my weight on the handle----there, that felt better but it broke my bench top!
I have tested uncrimped boolits in a revolver by shooting one at a time, all the way to a full profile crimp. As the crimp got harder, the velocity did increase a little, but not enough to be a factor. The SD and ES was very low in every case, even with uncrimped boolits because I had CONSISTANT case tension which was measured when seating the boolits.
If the case tension is not consistant, the firm crimp can even out the results and lower the SD and ES. But in every test, the consistant case tension beat out the crimp for the lowest readings.
I am not talking about just tight boolit pull, but pull as even as can be measured. In fact, those cases sorted that had less tension, but were EVEN, had low ES's. Mixed cases with different case tensions had the very highest readings. Tighter crimps only improved the readings a little.
Dies that have too large of an expander will make the pulls very uneven. The correct expander will make the cases tighter and for some reason will even out those cases that have different spring back due to brass hardness much better. It lets the boolit itself determine how much the brass is expanded.
In other words, have good EVEN case tension, then apply a firm crimp which will also lower the SD between that brass that is a little different and accuracy will be as good as you can get it. There is just no need to over crimp beyond what is needed to hold boolits under recoil.

[StarMetal]

If you have a bullet that has a crimp groove, you roll crimp into that groove, but don't bottom out the case mouth edge in the bottom of that groove, because the case mouth having nowhere to go then, will bulge the case. You just need to roll it into the groove alittle. Depend too on how deep a crimp groove a bullet has. My RCBS 255 gr SWC for the 45 LC for example has a very generous and deep crimp groove. The bootm of the RCBS crimp is slanted too. In other words viewing the bullet from the side the grove looks like an upside down letter L...except with that long leg slanted somewhat. I believe the slant is there to straighten that roll crimp out upon firing and ease the bullet's exit better then having say a square crimp groove. Now on the SAECO 45 LC mould that I had the crimp groove wasn't much deeper then you could score around the bullet with an Xacto knife. I didn't like it and in my opinion it was not as good bullet as the RCBS with it's deeper groove.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Dale 53--

Now that I have removed my foot from my mouth......I'll speak a bit more respectfully on this topic. :-)

You'll note I didn't say the boolit was inaccurate in my Bishawk 45. It shot real well, actually. I was about 5 rounds deep in the first cylinder-full of these loads when the creep-out took effect, and the boolits did seem to be distributing vertically as I hit an impact plate at Angeles. I discontinued using those loads, re-setting the crimp a bit deeper--and they worked very well after that. That same shallow crimp groove also was sufficient in the Lee 44-200-RF to support boolits against magazine spring tension in my '73. Sort of an opposite problem, addressed by rolling a little case mouth into a boolit recess. Case neck tension is VERY critical, and there may not have been a sufficient amount of same in the 45 Colt/300 WFN Lee loads.

[Dale53]

Deputy Al;
As you have suggested, there is more than meets the eye to proper crimping. I think that we have covered the various problems rather well here.

Dale53

[lefty_red]

Ok, The Lee FCD just crimps the top 1/16" or so of the case mouth. Now, If I have a bullet seated out pretty far, will it damage the bullet OUTSIDE the brass?

Jerry

[Bucks Owin]

Bucks, yes, I can see the brass getting looser with a heavy hand on a roll crimp die that does not support the case. Then the dreaded bulge shows up.
It makes me wonder if some guys realize the tremendous pressure a loading press can apply with a little handle pull. Oh, hell, the crimp didn't feel tight, Have to stand up and put all my weight on the handle----there, that felt better but it broke my bench top!
I have tested uncrimped boolits in a revolver by shooting one at a time, all the way to a full profile crimp. As the crimp got harder, the velocity did increase a little, but not enough to be a factor. The SD and ES was very low in every case, even with uncrimped boolits because I had CONSISTANT case tension which was measured when seating the boolits.
If the case tension is not consistant, the firm crimp can even out the results and lower the SD and ES. But in every test, the consistant case tension beat out the crimp for the lowest readings.
I am not talking about just tight boolit pull, but pull as even as can be measured. In fact, those cases sorted that had less tension, but were EVEN, had low ES's. Mixed cases with different case tensions had the very highest readings. Tighter crimps only improved the readings a little.
Dies that have too large of an expander will make the pulls very uneven. The correct expander will make the cases tighter and for some reason will even out those cases that have different spring back due to brass hardness much better. It lets the boolit itself determine how much the brass is expanded.
In other words, have good EVEN case tension, then apply a firm crimp which will also lower the SD between that brass that is a little different and accuracy will be as good as you can get it. There is just no need to over crimp beyond what is needed to hold boolits under recoil.

Excellent post amigo!

And as you've mentioned, it's remarkable how little crimp is needed to ward off bullet jump. Much less than "recommended", even in the "powder bibles"....
(Hornady even says to DAMAGE the cannelure with crimp "tightness" :rolleyes: )

Best,

Dennis

[Dale53]

Jerry;
That has not been my experience. I am pesently crimping ON the first band of the Lee Group Buy .314"x 120 RF bullet for my .32 mags. There appears to be NO damage at all and the bullets are NOT moving out under recoil. Understand, even tho' the 120 bullet is heavy for the caliber, it is NOT a heavy bullet. This may or may not work with a 300 gr bullet (inertia does not care what the caliber is, just the weight and velocity which causes the recoil that causes inertia to move bullets forward in the cylinder if they are not properly "secured").

Dale53

[lefty_red]

I should have added.....

Besides trying to get the max "setup" allowed by the law (of physics) and as little "throat jump" as possible, I'm using over sized boolits.

So, does that changes the possiblity of boolit damanged when using the Lee FCD.

Cause here's what I'm thinking, The FCD comes down over the bullet to get to the case mouth. How does it "know" not to damage the boolit and where the case mouth is?

Jerry

[Dale53]

Jerry;
YOU adjust the crimp portion separately - IT doesn't find the end of the case, YOU do.

Dale53