450-400-70 (ok, it's a 45-70)

[Larry Gibson]

Here is a photo of my Siamese Mauser I converted to 45-70 and a target I shot with it last week. I call the rifle a 450-400-70 because with it I can take 45-70 loads to a level above anything currently published for the 3d level 45-70 loads. The rifle is so stamped on the barrel (450-400-70) to designate it's caliber. The scope is a Leupold 2.5X Compact with heavy cross hair (covers 4 MOA) in an old Redfield base with the backup aperture sight on the rear of the base.

The bullet is the one Midway had on special last month ($9 something for 250). They actually weigh out right at 413 gr and are .458-.459 and cast fairly hard. The load is 43 gr of milsurp 4895 with a dacron filler in W-W cases with WLR primers. They crimp was a roll crimp in the crimp groove. Velocity is 1547 fps with SD of 28 fps and ES of 69 fps for the 10 record shots. At 45 gr of 4895 the groups go to 6+". The 43 gr load is close enough for practice, eh!

The target shown was shot at 100 yards. On target the 1130 "10" is the fouler out of a cold clean barrel. The next 10 shots at all "X"s. The bull is a 50 yard pistol target.

Actually I'm posting this as a test to see how the pictures show. Just thought you'd like to see how the 450-400-70 does as I've talked it up once or twice.

Larry Gibson

[Dale53]

Good lookin' rifle, Larry. An especially good lookin' target. I can only hope that my "recently" acquired (last winter) Ruger #3 will do somewhere near as good. I'll bet mine punishes me more than yours does you. You have a really good choice in scope for a hunting rifle (of course, you know that:mrgreen:). For purely academic reasons, it would be interesting to see what you can do with a target scope on that rifle.

I've put an old (but good) Weaver Steel Widefield four Power on my Ruger. I probably won't get loads worked up in it until later this summer. The big Schuetzen match at Etna Green, IN (four days of shooting before Memorial Day) will keep me at th bench working with my new Schuetzen .32 caliber bullet in May.

Congratulations on a worthy project.

Dale53

[jhalcott]

Larry could you post a close up of the scope and rear aperature arrangement please.? I have one of these guns and would like to mount a scope while having the aperature as a backup. Did you bend the bolt yourself or have some one do it for you?

[Larry Gibson]

Dale53

" I can only hope that my "recently" acquired (last winter) Ruger #3 will do somewhere near as good. I'll bet mine punishes me more than yours does you."

I'd bet on that too!!! I have fired some of my 450-400-70 "lessor game" loads (400 gr cast bullets at 1700+ fps) in a couple #3s. One had a recoil pad installed and it wasn't too bad from standing position. The factory original one was just plain brutal!!! We wrapped the sticky electrician tape around the wrist to get a good grip that didn't slip under recoil. Without that tape it was hard to keep from bruising the knuckles on the lever.


"You have a really good choice in scope for a hunting rifle (of course, you know that:mrgreen:). For purely academic reasons, it would be interesting to see what you can do with a target scope on that rifle."

Yes, the leupold is very quick and I think about the perfect scope for what I built the rifle for; elk hunting in pole patches. Prior to the Leupold I had a Weaver 1.5x4 on the rifle. At 4X I have shot numerous MOA groups with jacketed bullets and with Lyman's GC'd 458483. With a Barnes 400 gr SP over RL7 at 2300 fps I can hold the first 3 shots into sub 1.5 MOA off a bench. However if I try for a 5 shot group off the bench by the time I get to that 4th right cross from George Forman I'm a little punchy and the last two stray somewhat......would like to try it with a "Lead-Sled" sometime.

Good luck at Etna Green.

Larry Gibson

[dragonrider]

I read about converting the Siamese Mauser some years ago, and it is something I have always wanted to do, but never found a Siamese Mauser.
Nice Looking, and obviously great shooter. Well done.

[lovedogs]

Ha, ha. I had to laugh when you mentioned getting "punchy", Larry. Last summer while working with 500 grainers in my Buffalo Classic I tried a load suggested to me by a guy from Alliant. As you probably are aware, the BC is a fairly light rifle and with its stock design and steel buttplate it can get punishing. The load suggested was way hot. The rifle handled it without problems but when I touched the first one off I knew I didn't want to do that often. It was getting just over 1500 FPS with those monsterous 500 gr. bullets. Talk about recoil!! I shot them out but I sure had no desire to shoot any more of that loading.

[Uncle Grinch]

I too have a Siamese Mauser in 45-70 that I had done up by E.R. Shaw many years ago. Mine has Williams Peep sights, a 19 inch barrel and the entire gun is parkerized. The stock is completely glass bedded and is painted with a black wrinkle finish paint.

I know what you mean by those 500 grain loads. I picked up a partial box of Hornady soft points at a gun show for a steal. The guy said someone brought them back after using only a few of them. I worked up a load that touched 1900 fps and thought I was going to have to go to the dentist to get my fillings put back in.

Needless to say... I still have that partial box.

I shot a deer a number of years ago from a ground blind that was only 7 yards away. The 300 grain boolit went from chest to butt and literally sat him down on his haunches.

Siamese Mauser 45-70... one great gun!!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry could you post a close up of the scope and rear aperature arrangement please.? I have one of these guns and would like to mount a scope while having the aperature as a backup. Did you bend the bolt yourself or have some one do it for you?

Taking the pictures tonight and will post tomorrow (my old computer at home won't handle the high tech stuff).

Here's part of an article I wrote on the rifle;

SIAMESE MAUSER
450-400-70

The year was 1972 and having just read “Pondoro” and “Use Enough Gun” each for the umpteenth time I was determined to have a “large bore” rifle of sufficient caliber. However, the budget of a young police officer with a family left much to be desired. I then saw an ad in “Shotgun News” that offered promise. As I had some gun repair experience (military) and tools I decided to build my own.

I purchased the surplus Siamese Mauser rifle for $19.95 along with a Star (later became E.R. Shaw, I believe) barrel that was pre-threaded and chambered in 45-70 for $29.95. The surplus rifle was covered with Cosmoline and when cleaned the action was free of any pitting or corrosion. I quickly stripped it down to the bare receiver and then installed the barrel. The bolt handle was forged, a ramp front sight added along with a Lyman receiver sight and it was bedded with Micro-Bed into the military stock. The stock was “semi-sporterized” meaning nothing more than the front was cut off and the handguard omitted. The stock appeared to be made of a lessor quality of also ran "orange crate" grade of wood. I did not have a lathe at the time so instead of opening the bolt face to fit the 45-70 I chucked the cases in the drill press and with a file turned the rims to fit the bolt face. Thus with 40 cases and a supply of Lyman 457483 400 gr gas check cast bullets I was ready to load. Question was what load?

Some research revealed that 46 gr of H4895 was a recommended max load for the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin. Seemed like the place to start and indeed it proved to be just a starting load. I progressed up to 60 gr of H4895 with that bullet. I ran out of case capacity with no sign of excessive pressure. The velocity was 2050 fps (all stated velocities were chronographed with Oehler chronographs). Recoil with the military stock steel butt plate was brutal! About a year or so later Fajen or Bishop offered a completely finished and checkered, 95% inletted, stock for about $50.00. I got one of these and a Packmyer Triple Magnum recoil pad to go on it. The action was inletted and again bedded with Micro-Bed. Several styles of “express” rear sights were tried and the action was drilled and tapped with a 2 ½X and then a 1.5-4X Weaver scope being used for a while. Thus I used the rifle twenty years for hunting rogue ground squirrels to Rocky Mountain Elk. After numerous years I got tired of touching up the cold blue finish every year and had it parkerized after shortening the barrel to 24”. The throat was also reamed out to allow the Barnes 400 gr SP to be seated to magazine length. The bolt face was opened to allow use of unaltered cases. The rails required no modification. Other than the parkerizing I've done all the work myself.

For sights I gravitated back to the Lyman receiver sight and a post front. This provided quick re-zeroing for the different loads and had proven to be the best combination in the hunting situations I used the rifle for. However, recently I found a Redfield base with the flip up auxiliary aperture sight (I think it is for a M70. Miracuously it fit the hole spacing I had D&T'd on the front reciver ring and on the modified rear ring. I have removed the receiver sight and now have a 2.5X Leupold compact with thick duplex reticle on it. I also corrected a bedding problem and the action is now full length bedded with Steel-Bed.

Larry Gibson

Good luck, good shooting and good hunting

[Larry Gibson]

.....I shot a deer a number of years ago from a ground blind that was only 7 yards away. The 300 grain boolit went from chest to butt and literally sat him down on his haunches.

Siamese Mauser 45-70... one great gun!!

I know just what you mean. AS a LEO in NE Oregon I used to dispatch wounded or crippled deer/elk. I used numerous handguns and rifles over the years but the 450-400-70 was the most impressive. I've a load for the Lee 457-500-GC that I cast hard and push to 2040 fps (that's .458 Win Mag territory) with the bullet seated out to mag length. It WILL go from one end of an elk and out the other. Will also go through the trunk, passenger comparment and smash the engine block of cars (old ones built back when cars were cars, men were men and woman were glad of it). My rifle is about 1 1/2 to 2 lbs lighter than most .458s so that load is a standing or sitting load only. Sometimes when sitting it will roll me over backwards! More fun than a man should have.....

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Hey you fellows remember that article old Skeeter Skeleton did for Shooting Times where he was one of the first LEO's in his area to get a Model 29 44 mag with four inch barrel and one day the got a call a cow had been hit on the road , but wasn't dead, too far gone to save so it needed dispatched and old Skeeter heard the call and made everyone promise not to shoot the cow he wanted to try out his new 44 mag and handloads on it. He shows up and takes his 44 and aims at the cows head and BOOM, bullet bounces off, again BOOM bullet bounces off. One of the other officers pushed Skeeter aside and killed it with a 357 mag. Then they proceeded to tease Skeeter about his big bad 44 mag. He come back with sometime about he reloaded those and they must have been light.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Hey you fellows remember that article old Skeeter Skeleton did for Shooting Times where he was one of the first LEO's in his area to get a Model 29 44 mag with four inch barrel and one day the got a call a cow had been hit on the road ........Joe

I remember that one, I think he caught hell from Jordan and Askins over that one. Reminds me of some years later when I was a shift SGT for LaGrande PD. Went out of town a couple miles to the small community of Perry on a vicious dog attacking a small girl complaint. The County deputy was 20 miles away and the only OSP trooper was 30 miles away. Fortunately the owner of the dog (a large German Shepard) had gotten the girl inside her house before too much damage was done. It was enough to have the little old lady owner request we "put the dog down". The dog was licensed and had rabies shots and all the neighbors said it was just getting old and over protective of the old lady that owned it. The lady got the dog on a leash and we duc-taped it's mouth shut. She requested we do it in her back yard so she could bury it. I took the dog into the back yard and about that time recieved a call from the deputy, Jack Wickander, that he was only a couple minutes away. I waited for him as I was a little outside my jurisdiction. Jack showed up and I gave him the info and turned the case over to him. I asked whether he wanted to shoot the dog or should I.

Warning; Graphic violence described below. Don't read farther unless you are up to it!!!


Jack got this big smile and said he'd do it. He went back to his patrol vehicle and came back with a couple of "special" .44 magnum rounds for his M29. Turns out they were "Velets" (SP?), HP rounds with a priming compound filling the HP made to explode on impact. He loaded them into his 4" M29 and walked over to where I'd tied the dog. Fortunately it was dark by now and kind of chilly so we didn't have any spectaters. Fortunate also that I was standing some distance away.

From about a foot way Jack shot the dog straight down through the top of the head. My gawd what a spectacal! Flame, blood and brains belched out all over Jack! The dog died instantly slamming straight down to the grond without a single quiver! There was smoke rolling out its ears and nostrals. Both eyes were blown out and hanging down it's cheeks. Jack was a mess and was uttering profusely every cuss word known to man! I and the other officer with me were laughing our asses off. Well Jack was not presentable to any one nor was his blood and brain splattered M29. He put in a a plastic bag and I had a can of WD40 in the my patrol car so I sprayed it down with it. He headed home to wash up and clean the M29. I and my officer dug a grave for the dog and buried it so the lady wouldn't see the mess. The girl had already been taken to the hospital, treated and released. The little old lady thanked us for taking care of the dog and not arresting her. My officer and I headed back into town, case closed.

That incident always reminded me of the Skeeter faugh-paugh only in a reverse way. Never let Jack live it down, he died about 10 years ago - good man, damn few of us left. I still have one of the .44 Velets and several 9mm Valets. They still work.

Larry Gibson

[Bass Ackward]

I read about converting the Siamese Mauser some years ago, and it is something I have always wanted to do, but never found a Siamese Mauser.
Nice Looking, and obviously great shooter. Well done.


Dragonrider,

Here is an option. Look on the right side of the page about half way down. These guys do good work too.

http://itdcustomgun.com/_wsn/page2.html

[Uncle Grinch]

Larry,

I picked up a 45 ACP chamber insert for my 45-70 some time back that really is fun to play with. As long as I use cast boolits (what other kind is there?), I'm able to ring a 12 inch plate at 100 yards. You have to load it single shot, but that's no problem.

[dragonrider]

Thanks for the link, I bookmarked it, only one left and I am out of work so no funds it right now. But let me ask this. Why do I not see or hear about many German Mausers being converted to 45-70. According to Frank De Haas in his book "Bolt Action Rifles"
"Except for the bolt face and cartridge head recess, the bolt and firing mechanism are an exact copy of the M98 bolt."
What would be involved in converting a German 98 to 45-70, seems to me to be the same as it would for the Siamese. Opening the bolt face, doable, shortening extractor claw, again doable, opening up the forward area of the guide rails some, trivial. The magazine seems to need no mods at all. The barrel thread size of the German is larger hence stronger, yes?
As an experiment this morning I took a 45-70 case and cut the rim to 30-06 dimensions adding the groove and the angle, see below
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/fourfivesevenoh%20rebated%20rim/45-70rebatedrim003.jpg
I did this to check length problems and ability to feed, I stuffed into the mag of my 9.3 and it did feed, of course not chamber, it didn't feed great but opening the feeds rails as De Haas said should correct that. This next photo shows it stuffed into an action I have here.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/fourfivesevenoh%20rebated%20rim/45-70rebatedrim.jpg
Of course rebating the rim as I did entails other problems like headspacing so this is not practical, but what about using 450 Marlin cases??? Although with the rim, feeding problems may result.
Ok obviously something I am not doing but something I have given thought to. Is there any substance to my thoughts or am I way off line????

[Larry Gibson]

Larry could you post a close up of the scope and rear aperature arrangement please.? I have one of these guns and would like to mount a scope while having the aperature as a backup. Did you bend the bolt yourself or have some one do it for you?

The first photo is of the aperture in folded position under the scope on the rifle. The next phot is of an aperture and the Redfield box it comes in. The M88/100 bases are easily adapted to Mauser rear sight bases for "scout scope" use. The next two photos show the same aperture. Not the screws allow adjustment for some windage and elevation. I have 3 rifles with these on them and really like them. The aperture appears too large but when it is positioned forward on the barrel it is the right size.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

I picked up a 45 ACP chamber insert for my 45-70 some time back that really is fun to play with. As long as I use cast boolits (what other kind is there?), I'm able to ring a 12 inch plate at 100 yards. You have to load it single shot, but that's no problem.

Years ago I contemplated having a chamber adapter made to fire the .45 Colt. Then a friend gave me some copper plated 250 gr .45 Colt bullets that had been left in the plating solution too long as they were .458-.459 diameter. They shot great in the 450-400-70. I tried various bullets over the years but settled on the Rapine 460250 over 8 gr of Bullseye for 1050 fps. Accuracy is excellent in the 450 and my TDs. Since they are loaded rounds they feed pretty well.

Hadn't thought of using the .45 ACP in an adapter but it sounds interesting.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the link, I bookmarked it, only one left and I am out of work so no funds it right now. But let me ask this. Why do I not see or hear about many German Mausers being converted to 45-70. According to Frank De Haas in his book "Bolt Action Rifles"
"Except for the bolt face and cartridge head recess, the bolt and firing mechanism are an exact copy of the M98 bolt."
What would be involved in converting a German 98 to 45-70, seems to me to be the same as it would for the Siamese. Opening the bolt face, doable, shortening extractor claw, again doable, opening up the forward area of the guide rails some, trivial. The magazine seems to need no mods at all. The barrel thread size of the German is larger hence stronger, yes?
Of course rebating the rim as I did entails other problems like headspacing so this is not practical, but what about using 450 Marlin cases??? Although with the rim, feeding problems may result.
Ok obviously something I am not doing but something I have given thought to. Is there any substance to my thoughts or am I way off line????

Yes, headspacing is the real issue with using the rebated rim case you made as a heavy crimp is needed with the heavier loads. Used to be a fairly common conversion of M98s to the .458x2" American. That is a wildcat of which the .450 Marlin is very similar. Shouldn't be too hard of a conversion.

It's been so long since I had the barrel off the siamese I don't remember the the thread size, is it smaller than the normal M98? The main reason the Siamese Mausers works so well with the 45-70 is they're made for rimmed cartridges. I've seen them in 7.62x54R, .303 and .348 also.

Larry Gibson

[dragonrider]

Larry,
De Haas says the Siamese thread are .990"x14 tpi, the Mauser is 1.100"x12.

[Catshooter]

Larry,

I missed out on getting to the range the day you shot that baby. I was feeling badly about that, but now . . . I probably would have asked to shoot your rifle. You probably would have let me. Yikes!

I had an old friend who's gone now who built a 7 pound (with scope & sling) .358 Norma Mag that I shot. Oh my. Your's does look like fun though.


Cat

[Bass Ackward]

Larry,
De Haas says the Siamese thread are .990"x14 tpi, the Mauser is 1.100"x12.


DR,

The 458X2 was the easy conversion. I have owned 5 total in the past. Brass is everywhere and you seldom have to buy it. But I would go 450 Marlin today because dies are cheaper and just pay the premium for the brass.

[dragonrider]

I think I will look into that , it'll take some time but I got the rest of my life,

[45nut]

Actually,I use 450 Marlin dies for my 458x2 and they work perfectly. And any win mag brass is useable,,I usually use 7mag since that is plenty common and I don't have one to save brass for anyway. And I pick up plenty for free. My 458x2 is a P-14 Enfield.

[Buckshot]

..............You could use a MAS36 to convert. No doubt easier to find then a Samese Mauser, and probably cheaper then a P14, or the Siamese Mauser for that matter.

http://www.fototime.com/4CE0AE555332580/standard.jpg

The bolt measures 0.800" in diameter, so it's easily opened up. While not as astheticly pleasing in apprearance as the other rifle options, once you get over the familial French rifle-ness of it, it can grow on you. There are no problems with it's strength, I can assure you of that. The rear locking bolt allows the breechface to be right there at the end of the magazine, just like a SMLE. So feeding issues are few.

The SMLE is another option also.

..............Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

The Ruger #1 isn't much--if any--heavier than the #3, and full-potential loads in that 7.25# rifle aren't much fun from the bench. They're not much fun standing up, either. Maybe as I get older I've lost my former appreciation for rough roads in a good 4-wheeler, hard-recoiling firearms, and cold, wet backpacking trips.

The 45-70 has always impressed me with its accuracy, and with its game-taking potential even in 1873-vintage loadings. My #1's accuracy "standard" was set with BP loads, several iron-sight 5-shotters running 1.25" at 100 yards. I have come up with a few smokeless loads that approach that level, but it remains the best work done by the rifle to date. Some combination of Government ballseat, .449" x .459" dimensions, 8-groove 50% profile, and ammunition characteristics combine to give better results with slower velocities regardless of boolit weight in this rifle. Less resulting recoil might figure into that outcome, too. 500-550 grain boolits at around 1100 FPS aren't bad at all, and I expect they wouldn't do any recipient any good either.

[dragonrider]

the Mas36 I suppose would be an option, the bolt size is a point in it's favor and I have a friend who has one he would gladly dispose of cheap. But a Mauser would be my first choice.

[AkMike]

But that Mas36 is so but ugly... Look at some of th4 auction sites. They're out there. Heck I have 3 of them now and I always see them at the gun shows. (Unaltered)