Barrel Life Expectancy

[Ivantherussian03]

I saw this, and wondered what you good people thought.

http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/

What can I can expect for barrel life of WWII Mauser? Is it used up already?

What about a 1949 Remington 30.06?

[Buckshot]

..............I've thought about it but never worried too much about it. There are many things besides shooting that can wear out a barrel. Those of us enamoured of the old mil-surp to any degree have doubtless come across one or more with the lands at the muzzle being worn into the semblance of a funnel from energetic cleaning.

Similarly while we clean our barrels at home with the rifles in a cradle, how many of us run the brush on the rod out of the muzzle, and ditto patches, to have the rod then fall against the bore and slide out an inch or 2. Then on retraction it slides the same distance again before the brush/patch centers in the muzzle elevating the rod?

Without a doubt those big fat cased small bores ruin bores at a tremendous rate compared to many other milder mannered cartridges. The was an article in Precision Shooting magazine by a couple guys who'd necked down some big case for a tiny bullet. Totally unrealistic and it seemed as if it would almost have been easier to get powder in through the flash hole in the primer pocket then the caseneck. They had a Savage action and several chamberd up barrels on hand.

They reported they could burn up a barrel before finishing up experimental reloading with just ONE powder, let alone the 4-5 they had to work with. Sectioned barrels showed the lands gone halfway up the tube after maybe 50 rounds.

For the majority here, I doubt that they have much to fear with their favorite cast lead shooters. But as to the numbers posted in the guys blog, I think they're way to conservative and possibly need to be tripled, for the average guy and the average rifle.

.................Buckshot

[Frank46]

Ivan, some benchrest shooters replace their barrels after about 800 rds because they feel that the peak accuracy has passed. Nice if you have the money. Hi power shooters shooting colts ar-15 usually get about 10,000 before accuracy goes down, but you are shooting at hi power targets. Not bench rest targets. 308 win you could get about 3000 rds before accuracy starts to fall off. I'd say that 30-06 maybe more. It all depends on what your using it for. Deer only require minute of deer accuracy. Though some will debate that. Cast bullet shooters should not really have to worry about barrel life. Unless the bbl is truly shot to begin with. I've seen some really bad barrels shoot pretty good with cast bullets, it all depends how the bullet fits the barrel. I had a friend who had a colt lightening in 44-40 that had a really bad looking bbl, but at 50 and 100yds the groups were suprising considering the condition of the bbl. Frank

[Dale53]

A number of years ago, I was shooting at Camp Perry. Springfield Armory (I told you it was a number of years ago) had graphs of accuracy shooting with their machine rest constructed to use service rifle barrels in 30'06 and .308. The .308 had a considerably better barrel life than the '06 (logical as it burns less powder behind the same bullet). The barrels started off good but got progressively better then started going down hill. Good accuracy (match grade) until about 10,000 rounds. However, rapid fire will rapidly decrease barrel life as most big bore shooters will attest. A number of them"would" use a rifle for the rapid fire stages
and a different rifle (gilt edged) for the slow fire stage (National Match Course).

I have been out of the loop since the AR became the dominant rifle so can't say with any authority what the present practices are.

However, personal experience with varmint rifles show that a .222 class rifle can stay under one inch for 10,000 rounds if the rifle is not overheated. It is common knowledge that you can "kill" a 22-250 or .220 Swift in a couple of days working on a prairie dog town if the rifle is overheated.

I would expect VERY long barrel life with a cast bullet rifle used with modest velocities. Schuetzen rifles, which are shot with plain base lead bullets at 1200-1550 fps, give barrel life exceeding 100,000 rounds (if anyone has ever shot that many...)

Dale53

[KCSO]

Lets put this all in perspective for the average shooter. My father in law bought a Winchester M70 in 1946 NIB. He kept loading records on that gun until 1998. During that time he shot almost 3000 rounds between sighting in, killing varmits and testing reloads. He was considered quite a shooter in his neighborhood. A good friend of mine is a real varmit hunter, he shot 250 rounds his last outing. He mkes two trips a year to hunt doggies and with testing and sighting he figures he shoots 6-700 rounds a year. His last rifle lasted him 11 years and he traded when the gun would no longer group under 1". I took that gun, lapped tand scrubbed the barrel and shot it as a coyote rifle for the last 10 years, it will still shoot right at 1" at 100 yards with handloads and has had at least 12,000 rounds through it. The average joe will NEVER wear out a barrel from shooting and most of the SHOT OUT tubed I see are DIRTY, clean out the accumulated fouling and they go back to shooters. These articles are sure good for gun sales though.

[shooter575]

I remember reading years ago on the German "Paris gun" of WW1.This thing shot 80 miles. 8" bore with soooo much powder that the round had to be seated some inches farther in the chamber after every round.Barrel life was like 20 rounds or so.
I know useless but interesting :)

[Dale53]

KCSO;
Well, gee, I have been considered a "Gonzo Shooter" for many years. I shoot a LOT. I must confess that I have NEVER "shot out" a barrel. I did have a micro groove .222 Sako that would foul out in twenty shots or so after it had a lot of rapid fire and many years of use. The rifling was so shallow, that it would start throwing bullets sideways at 100 yards after 20-30 shots. However, this is the freaky thing, it would, after simple chemical cleaning with a good bore solvent, shoot under 3/4" (mostly around .5") until it fouled again. That is the ONLY rifle that I can say materially changed after shooting for many years.

However, I had a friend that I shot with a lot, that had a Remington 6mm Heavy Varmint 700 that lost its "gilt edge" after 2000 full rounds of jacketed ammo (all full tilt). So, it can happen, but it certainly is NOT common. Your comments on dirty bores is well taken.

Dale53

[felix]

The throats get longer and longer over time. As long as you got a spare boolit design long enough to reach and cast soft enough to obturate enough, all's OK. However, like Dale mentioned, it's the crap buildup that's the real culprit. Like BA says, have the barrel maker install taller lands at the next time the gun is changed out. Might as well make the throat (freebore+leade) a little shorter too. ... felix

[swheeler]

I here this one all the time, you can't shoot a barrel out! Well you can keep chasing the rifling until the bullets you use are too short to touch the neck, lengthen the magazine box to handle the new longer rounds, switch to a more streamlined bullet or heavier(longer) to even get close to the lands, oh ya keep uping the powder charge trying to maintain the desired velocity. IF YOU ARE A SHOOTER you will shoot out several barrels in your lifetime! I have "wasted" 3 -30 cal mags, 1 -7mm mag and several 22 cal CF's all but 2 rifles were purchased new by me, I keep them cleaner than most and try not to abuse them(overheat) it's just going to happen if you shoot them, if you take them to the range 3 times a year for a zero check, forget about it, you ain't going to live that long! Below are two 223 rounds, as you can see I have kept chasing the riflings, now that 55 gr Nosler is too short, what next 69 gr Sierra? lengthen the magazine box AGAIN? That is only 5681 rounds recorded-I'm sure a few have been fired that never got written down. Last time out was 1-5-06 100 yd groups were less than MOA- is it shot out? To me yes, I really don't want to shoot heavier bullets SINGLE SHOT! One of the 30 caliber magnums would still shoot about 2.5 inch groups, but there was no rifling left for 3 inches ahead of the leade, I kept adding powder but it would finally would only equal 06 ballistics- shot out YES- that was around 1500 rounds. So MOST people will never shoot out a barrel, but some of us will shoot out several!

[swheeler]

223 after a few rds

[StarMetal]

Saying you can't shoot a barrel out is like saying you can't wear your car engine out.

Joe

[swheeler]

Right on Joe! When I hear that I usually use it as an indicator that I'm dealing with a neophyte, and just let it pass without much said, figured that it could be discussed "here" without anyones "feelers" getting hurt.

[Larry Gibson]

I think swheeler is correct and most others have valid points. I have shot outt numerous M14/M1A barrels in HP shooting. I also have shot out a 6.5-280 barrel, a couple regular 22-250 barrels, helped shoot out a couple 22-284s, a 6mm Remington barrel, 3 commercial .308 Win barrels and probably a couple more I don't remember off hand. I also have shot my Reminton M700V in .223 (purchased new in '74) to the point I set the barrel back to get the bullet close to the lands. The SAtests with 7.62 and 30-06 were pretty close except with the tests were for slow fire. Also the military '06s were loaded with 4895. Shoot reloads with 56-57 gr of 4350 and throat erosion will happen quicker. With match M14s that were used for a normal amount of rapid fire for practice and competition and accuracy started falling off around 6-7,000 rounds. The gunsmiths estimates on the blog site were pretty close with the 22-250 and other cartridges.

However, I have yet to measure any throat erosian from shooting cast bullets in all the years I've been shooting them. I have even heated some barrels up shooting some rapid fire practice. In the '06 for example I use about 59% of the charge of 4895 with cast loads that I shoot with M2 equivelent loads. The barrels very seldom get hot to the touch. Not much erosian going on there. I rebarreled a M93 Mauser with a new 2 groove 'A3 barrel. I chambered it to a cast bullet cartridge of my own design. (a 7.62 shortened to 2.0" and the shoulder set back so it has an '06 length neck). I had this done in '80. The barrel has never had a jacketed bullet through it. I have fired lots of cast bullets with all sorts of loads through it. I just this weekend measured the throat and can not detect any erosion.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Larry, my BR gun has had over 10K hot cast loads through it. Yes, the freebore is extensive, having had only about 750 rounds of condoms through it when the gun was competitive. At that time, the freebore was just beginning. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, my BR gun has had over 10K hot cast loads through it. .... felix

Cartridge and what is "hot"?

Larry Gibson

[Bucks Owin]

Funny thing with barrels. I have a 1945 "nickle steel" M-70 in .270 that my Dad carried all his life after getting out of the service. At one time he kept track of the total fired rounds up until the early 60's when he lost track at 6,000+. It's had at least 10K total through it I'd say. The bore looks like a new "nickle" (pun intended) but the lands are worn to quite an extent and the throat erosion goes out there a ways...

But the darn thing will still shoot into an inch with Dad's old favorite of 62 grs H4831 and good 130 gr boolit. Some calibers seem to get a lot better barrel life than others!

FWIW,

Dennis

[redneckdan]

I had the crazy idea of necking a .30-06 down to .20 and see what would happen. I assume barrel life would be dismal.

[Bucks Owin]

I had the crazy idea of necking a .30-06 down to .20 and see what would happen. I assume barrel life would be dismal.

You might be just slightly "over bore capacity" with that there wildcat...;-)

Dennis

[mike in co]

MOST WORE OUT 22 RIM FIRES ARE DIRTY, OVER CLEANED FROM THE WRONG END, OR SHOT WITH CORROSIVE BB/CB LOADS...

br shooters (with money) change bbls before they die, cause they cannot afford to have the bbl die in the middlle of a match.(this is 22ppc and 6ppc)...800 is a bit short..more like 1600-2200....

on the other end of the spectrum is the current 30br round. a record shooting, still winning bbl has over 8000 rounds thru it !

everyone has thier own std for shot out........

i use 'SHOT OUT" high power 223 bbls to build threegun rifles....
bbls that cannot hold moa at 600 yds, but will do sub 2" at 300 yds....
mostly buy them at all of $40 each......

i just got a krieger that is 26" long....gonna cut some off the breach end , re chamber and recrown.....endup between 20/24"....not bad for $75!

the match winning 100yd grp bbl at the cast boolit shoot i attended, was an ex-parker hale 600 yd bbl......