22 bullits let down

[wistlepig1]

Well today I went and shot my first bullits from my new 22 cal lyman 44 gr GC mold before our snow storm gets here. Well all I can say is my shotgun or 45 has a better patern at 25 yds than my 22 Hornet. I used lil gun powder with 12.4, 12.6 and 12.8grs, less was better, 3 1/4" @ 25 yds.

Well, I will try 12.,11.5,11, and 10.5grs of LiLGun and see what that will do. If that isn't anything I will change powders. I have had real good luck with LiLGun with jacketed bullets. I am sure that the bad groups I got were not the gun, scope or shooter because I shot 3 shots of jacketed with my standard PD load in one hole.
I will post when I get more new. mr

[waco]

where do i start.....
what was the alloy
size of boolit
slug the barrel?
what lube?
how did you size boolit?
how far off lands did you seat the boolit?
many, many factors come in to play with cast vs. jacketed
you may pull out many hairs trying to get it all to come together.
just SOME of the things to think about
waco

[clodhopper]

I reccomend
A clean barrel.
SR 4759.
My hornet does not like lil'gun, If I want more velocity there's a couple of .223s around here along with a .22-250.

[swheeler]

whistlepig; I wouldn't shoot jacketed before accuracy testing cast unless I took the time to get all the copper out. Just a thought.

[jameslovesjammie]

A clean barrel


wouldn't shoot jacketed before accuracy testing cast unless I took the time to get all the copper out

+1

Yup. ALL the copper out. Butch's Bore Shine is your friend.

[35remington]

Your bullets don't have much chance over that load of 'Lilgun.

Try milder charges of 2400, 4227 or 4759 to get around 16-1800 fps and go from there. Forget the 2700 fps velocities for now and back off on the high powered loads.

The cast bullet thing needs a re-think on your part. Research some past posts here on recommended loadings for the Hornet.

[Buckshot]

...............I have a friend with a really nice old Winchester M54 in 22 Hornet. It is a tackdriver, which is always nice but it's as much a tackdriver with lead as it is with jacketed. His cast lead loads at 100 yards are the equal of the jacketed loads, and he runs the cast at or a bit over 2300 fps. We're talking solid 1" groups for 5 rounds at that range with cast lead. In fact the rifle seems to do well with most anything from 22 cal pellets and pulled 22RF slugs to jacketed. I don't know what the twist is but his barrel has the smaller 22 Hornet dimensions.

I only post the above to show that SOME 22 Hornets are egar to please, and will do quite well indeed. I've heard many a story about Hornets that had their owners pulling their hair out, or that did well with only one bullet weight or brand, or those that simply wouldn't shoot at all. I hope your 22 Hornet isn't a Ruger bolt action. Of course what I've heard about them may not apply to yours, if it is a Ruger.

..............Buckshot

[rhead]

My NEF hornet was a very picky eater but after about 1200 rounds of load development it finally started shooting decent groups. Due to the very small case, it is much more sensitive to small changes.

[Bret4207]

I'd recommend starting at the beginning- a clean barrel. Then produce the very best boolits you can and launch them no faster than 1500 fps to start with. At moderate speeds like that there are a bunch of thing you can work with to determine what the guns wants. In my way of thinking these might include-

Boolit size, seating depth, crimp, run out, powder load, alloy, etc.

Change one thing at a time and take notes.

[w30wcf]

wistlepig1,
I have found that with 12 b.h.n. (w.w. + 2% tin) 45 gr. g.c. .225" bullets in my Hornet, I can get equivalent accuracy to jacketed bullets at 2,600-2,700 f.p.s. :grin:

Two things come to mind:
Are you using a g.c. on the g.c. bullet?
A lubrisizer that's a bit out of line can damage .22 cast bullets.
If your bullets show signs of sizing more on one side, install the
g.c. by running the bullet just far enough into the die to crimp it
in place. Then lube by hand.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[JIMinPHX]

I've noticed that the .22's are much more sensitive than the larger calibers when it comes to having the boolit seated all the way out until it touches the lands.

Also, some of the older hornets used a different groove diameter than the new ones use. That is one caliber that you really need to slug.

I'd start by looking at those two items & making sure that your barrel is good & clean. After that, then I would check everything else that has already been listed above.

[StarMetal]

I have a CZ527 Hornet. Deadly accurate with jacketed. I bought the Lyman 45 grain mould years ago. It's only so so out of the CZ with many different powder combos. Then I picked up a NEI mould that throws a 55 gr Loverin style bullet. BINGO !!! That's the baby for my particular Hornet. Equals jacketed groups and at velocity. Now that bullets likes a full case of H4198. I recommended it to BaBore, but neither the bullet or loads shoot in his Browning Hornet. It's something you have to play with. I found mine isn't bullet size sensitive. I've also found out mine doesn't like the bullet loaded out to against the throat. Try different powders and different bullets.....and one more thing. My Hornet made a major improvement with case when I went from small rifle primers to small pistol primers.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

whistlepig1

Mostly good advise so far. Groove diameters of newly made Hornets are all pretty much .224 so sizing the cast bullet .225 or larger is best. I'm assuming you used a GC which is necessary along with a known good lube. Neck sizing the cases is also best. Using a SP primer is also considered the best.

The Hornet, like the .223 Rem, come in a myrid of barrel twist these days. You really need to know the twist rate of your barrel so you know what velocity range to expect and maintian good accuracy in. The older rifles like the M54 Buckshot mentions had 16" twists and usually had the tigher bores of .222/.223". It is with twists of 14-16" that you may really expect to come close duplicating accuracy and velocity of jacketed bullets using cast bullets. I expect consistent jacketed bullet accuracy with cast bullets using 14 or 16" twist Hornets in the 2200 - 2300 fps velocity range. I do get equal accuracy at 100 yards with a higher velocity but it is not consistent at the longer ranges out to 200 yards. With the faster 12", and I've even read of a 9", twist commercial Hornet barrels the velocity level with accuracy will be lower, Usuall in the 1800 - 2100 fps range.

I'm really getting fond of my Lyman 225438 mould for my Hornets. I have 4 of them (2 TC Contender barrels, a Ruger #3 and a Savage M40) now and have shot that bullet innumerous other Hornets, old and new over the years. That bullet is the best performer accuracy wise at the highest velocity from the various Hornets. It also has about the same terminal effect of squirrels, rabbits and rock chucks as a FP cast bullet. It's weight makes it good for all Hornet twists at all Hornet cast bullet velocities.

I suggest you switch powders and avoid further frustration. LilGun is not a good choice as mentioned. I also use LilGun with jacketed bullets in my Hornets for excellent accuracy and velocity at very mild pressures. However, at reduced load, cast bullet pressures it just does not ignite consistently and thus gives poor performance as you've found. The slower burning powders that do give good ignition with reduced loading s are 2400, 4227, 5744, 4759 and 4198. I suggest you start down around 5.5 gr with any of them (though I do recommend 4759) and work up in .2 or .3 gr increments testing for accuracy at 100 yards and chronographing, if possible, to measure the consistency of ignition and of course, velocity. I put "work up" in bold print because you are, like many others, wanting to "work down" with their loads. While not necessarily wrong it can be a most frustrating experience as you are finding out. It is always better to work up a load. Just a helpful suggestion is all.

Larry Gibson

[madcaster]

I remember a Kimber of Oregon M84 in .222 that I had(still miss it terribly) that I shot some Lyman cast out of,did not know so much about then,but followed the loading books and got 1.5" groups at 100 yards with it.Wish I could remember the load data!

[semtav]

Try 4198 to start with. My 218 Bee with 11 gr and 46 gr GC bullet likes it best.
I can put three in an inch at 50 yds with open sights pretty consistently.
the others seem to spread out a bit.

The heavier 55 gr bullets would tumble in my 219 Zipper so I've never tried them in the 218 Bee yet

[wistlepig1]

Thanks to all that gave advice.
I have a new Savage M#40 Hornet. I think they are 14/1 twist.
I cleanered the barrel before going to the range and shot the Jacketed after my poor results to see if it was me or the bullits'. I used GC and Lyam lub on all cast bullets.
I made up some loads with the LiLgun before I read theses post and they are 12.,11.5,11,10.5grs. WHEN the d### snow stops I will shot them just to see. But, I am thinking that just because LiLgun works well with jacketed, sure doesn't look good for CASTS. I will try a different powder and Post later. thanks again. martin

PS I recleaned the barrel and used JB and Kroil.

[JIMinPHX]

Kroil is good for loosening up lead fouling. I don't know how well it works with copper. I've never used JB, so I can't comment on that.

I would suggest that after you think you have the gun clean, you wet patch it with something like Hoppies, then let it sit for an hour, then dry patch & see if there is ANY sign of green or blue. If there is, then you still have enough fouling left to affect a cast boolit.

Also, what "Lyam lube" did you use? If you were trying to say Lyman lube, then there is more than one type. If it is Lyam, then it is one that I don't know & would like to find out about.

[wistlepig1]

Bob, I used Lyman lube, I have some of their Moly lube and RcbS's . Been trying them all see if there is one I like and more inportant, what my Savage Hornet likes.

PS I am up for the Nolble prize for Asto Physics and SPELLING, as I have noted lately, abilities has nothing to do with facts. Thanks for your support for the Nobel in spelling, "joke"

Martin

[canyon-ghost]

Hi, I shoot 22 Hornet.

7.5 grains IMR 4227
4.8 grains Unique
8.0 grains N110 (Jacketed) Hornady 50 grain

Never tried Lil Gun though.

[wistlepig1]

Ghost, I know nothing about cast but with jacketed I have had good luck with LiLgun in my Savage m40 with it. I use 45 gr Horn. for long range 175-200yds and 34 grs around 0-150 yds. try 12.7 to 13 grs and you will find the "sweet spot" also try small pistol prim.'s, I think you will get a nice suprise. The pressures are low compared to other's I have tried--better case life.
I have had very BAD results with it with my very limiled use in cast's and as others had suggested i will have to some other powder. I have Unique and H110 in stock and will try them the next range day--the snow is clearing here, so Tues or Wed is looking good.

good shooting ,,,,martin

[semtav]

good for CASTS. I will try a different powder and Post later. thanks again.



before you get worked up about all the other little details like lube, bore cleaning etc just make up a bunch of 5 shell loads of different powders. I realize the 218 Bee isn't exactly like the 22 hornet, but I didn't have much luck with the pistol powders etc, I had better luck with 4198 and H335. My jacketed shot good with anything but the cast was quite finicky. course my barrel is 1-16 twist, which works perfect with the 225438 and the 225107

[Three44s]

Another sneaky trick is to take boolits already lubrisized and give them a lubing over the top with Lee Liquid Alox.

It's easy and cheap and sometimes it just does wonders.

As far as JB Bore paste ....... it has helped my immensely with revolvers and leading ...... kind of a "lapping - lite" if you will.

Best of luck

Three 44s

[StarMetal]

before you get worked up about all the other little details like lube, bore cleaning etc just make up a bunch of 5 shell loads of different powders. I realized the 218 Bee isn't exactly like the 22 hornet, but I didn't have much luck with the pistol powders etc, I had better luck with 4198 and H335. My jacketed shot good with anything but the cast was quite finicky. courtse my barrel is 1-16 twist, which works perfect with the 225438 and the 225107

That's my experience with my Hornet and cast...it didn't like the pistol powders but loves 4198.

Joe

[beagle]

Whistlepig......I'm thinking you're driving them too fast. You're using jacketed loads for cast and the bullets won't withstand the velocities.

Out of my Ruger M77, 7.5 grains of Lil Gun gives me 2221 FPS and groups in the 1" range at 100 yards with a 225438HP sized .225".

From my experience in the .22s with regular alloy, 2400 FPS is about tops for velocity that will give you any accuracy and I'd say that you're exceeding that easily. With special alloys strengthened by copper based babbitt, you can go on up but not with WWs.

Try 7.5-8.0 grains and see what you get next time out IF that gets better, load a batch with small pistol primers and see if that don't trim groups some also./beagle

[BABore]

Actually Joe, the Lyman 225438's you sent me shot great out of my Browning Micro Hunter, 0.2233 groove, 1 in 16 twist. Not knowing where to start with cast and the hornet, I picked 2400 powder to start with. Lyman book data was (IIRC) 5.0 to 11.0 grains with this boolit. I started at 5.0 and worked up in 1 grain increments. At 100 yards, 3-shot groups were like 3-4 inches at the starting load. As I went up, things slowly improved. I think I had loads up to 10 grains. As I was approaching my max load, groups kept tightening. I was wondering what would destroy the boolit first, pressure or velocity. Ended up neither and I was amazed. The 10.0 grain load put 3 shots into an inch. I went home and pondered over the load data. I only had a grain to go and I would max out 2400. Book velocity showed this as 2500-2600 fps and max pressure. I looked at Lil Gun data and found it was all the same, regardless of boolit weight, 12.0 grs start, 13.0 grs max. Best thing was even at max load it was 10-12 kpsi lower pressure than any other powder. Velocity was also higher than everything else. This was Hodgdon's data. Well, I only had a few of your 438's left, so I loaded them at 12.0 and 12.5 grains of Lil Gun. Everything to date used neck sized brass, CCI 500 primers, and a light Lee factory crimp. These Lil Gun loads shot even better, and much faster than the 2400 loads. I ran out of your boolits before I could get anymore serious.

At that point I ordered a 225438 mold from Midway. It went back a couple days later. It dropped boolits at 0.223 x 0.2235 on the driving bands. I then decided if I could make my own mold for the Hornet. I've posted my latest results on the end of the lengthy 224 thread in the Group Buy forum. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=4853&page=21 I had no problem going up to 12.9 grains of Lil Gun. I have a pic of the 9-shot group on that thread. I was dealing with a good crosswind when I shot the last two groups, and it shows. Yesterday, I tried again. No wind, but the 32 F temp. got me. The gun/boolit sure didn't appreciate the LBT lube and cold weather. All boolits were weight sorted to zero variance, sized 0.224, and lubed with LBT soft. They were cast from 50/50 WW-Pb and water dropped. I now have to cast, weigh, and age a new batch so I can try a more cold tolerant lube.

As a side note, I have been shooting a PB version of this boolit searching for a good squirrel load. Soft boolits, Lee mule snot, and Red Dot did well at 1,100 fps. 50 yard groups ran 3/4" for 5 shots. I also tried some WD'd with LBT and Unique. This load was over 1,600 fps (4.0 grains) and put 6 shots into 5/8" at 50 yards.

I really think I got quite lucky on my Hornet. While it doesn't quite match my condum loads, yet. I think I can get real close at full velocity.

[StarMetal]

Actually Joe, the Lyman 225438's you sent me shot great out of my Browning Micro Hunter, 0.2233 groove, 1 in 16 twist. Not knowing where to start with cast and the hornet, I picked 2400 powder to start with. Lyman book data was (IIRC) 5.0 to 11.0 grains with this boolit. I started at 5.0 and worked up in 1 grain increments. At 100 yards, 3-shot groups were like 3-4 inches at the starting load. As I went up, things slowly improved. I think I had loads up to 10 grains. As I was approaching my max load, groups kept tightening. I was wondering what would destroy the boolit first, pressure or velocity. Ended up neither and I was amazed. The 10.0 grain load put 3 shots into an inch. I went home and pondered over the load data. I only had a grain to go and I would max out 2400. Book velocity showed this as 2500-2600 fps and max pressure. I looked at Lil Gun data and found it was all the same, regardless of boolit weight, 12.0 grs start, 13.0 grs max. Best thing was even at max load it was 10-12 kpsi lower pressure than any other powder. Velocity was also higher than everything else. This was Hodgdon's data. Well, I only had a few of your 438's left, so I loaded them at 12.0 and 12.5 grains of Lil Gun. Everything to date used neck sized brass, CCI 500 primers, and a light Lee factory crimp. These Lil Gun loads shot even better, and much faster than the 2400 loads. I ran out of your boolits before I could get anymore serious.

At that point I ordered a 225438 mold from Midway. It went back a couple days later. It dropped boolits at 0.223 x 0.2235 on the driving bands. I then decided if I could make my own mold for the Hornet. I've posted my latest results on the end of the lengthy 224 thread in the Group Buy forum. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=4853&page=21 I had no problem going up to 12.9 grains of Lil Gun. I have a pic of the 9-shot group on that thread. I was dealing with a good crosswind when I shot the last two groups, and it shows. Yesterday, I tried again. No wind, but the 32 F temp. got me. The gun/boolit sure didn't appreciate the LBT lube and cold weather. All boolits were weight sorted to zero variance, sized 0.224, and lubed with LBT soft. They were cast from 50/50 WW-Pb and water dropped. I now have to cast, weigh, and age a new batch so I can try a more cold tolerant lube.

As a side note, I have been shooting a PB version of this boolit searching for a good squirrel load. Soft boolits, Lee mule snot, and Red Dot did well at 1,100 fps. 50 yard groups ran 3/4" for 5 shots. I also tried some WD'd with LBT and Unique. This load was over 1,600 fps (4.0 grains) and put 6 shots into 5/8" at 50 yards.

I really think I got quite lucky on my Hornet. While it doesn't quite match my condum loads, yet. I think I can get real close at full velocity.

That's good news Bruce. I tried lots of different powders, both light and heavy loads, and my rifle just doesn't like them. But my "doesn't like" may be different then yours. I can get 1 inch out of those Lymans. My NEI's though are shooting 1/2 inch at velocity with the second load I tried, which was that 4198 one I gave you. My rifle shoots 3/8's with Hornadys so that was my goal to try to get near. I even shot a turkey with that 438 Lyman when I first got it. It just won't give me the real small holes I want.

Joe

[JIMinPHX]

Actually Joe, the Lyman 225438's you sent me shot great out of my Browning Micro Hunter, 0.2233 groove, 1 in 16 twist. Not knowing where to start with cast and the hornet, I picked 2400 powder to start with. Lyman book data was (IIRC) 5.0 to 11.0 grains with this boolit. ...
... The 10.0 grain load put 3 shots into an inch. I went home and pondered over the load data. I only had a grain to go and I would max out 2400. Book velocity showed this as 2500-2600 fps and max pressure.

I'll assume that was for something like a .223 & not a Hornet?

[canyon-ghost]

Martin, the 7.5 grains of IMR 4227 is for a Lyman 225438, like they are talking about. I shoot that almost every week from a TC Contender pistol with 10" barrel, with a rifle, you could drop it to 7.4 grains.

As far as the Hornet being sensitive to change because of it's size, well, I find that even my bigger bores do better with load testing in 1/10th grain increments. I load up 5 different charges, 5 of each, 25 in the box and go to the range. Then, if I don't find the small group, I'll load up the next 5 powder charges and do it again. Cast is going to be almost .5 to .7 grains less than a jacketed load in a Hornet, maybe even a 32-20. With cast, the idea is not to shove a lot of copper through the barrel until you shoot it out, rather be shooting mine for another 10 years. And powder types, sure, the pistol powders burn fast and clean but their recoil is slightly sharper. Rifle powders can bring your cast up to speed slower, allowing for better compensation of lead elasticity, a bit more accurate sometimes. Rifle powders also tend to be bulkier, less tendency to double-charge a case and a bit easier to see while loading.
Ron

PS: A neck sizing die for the Hornet does a lot, once fired brass gets even better when you don't full length size.

[wistlepig1]

Ghost,
Tomorrow is range day, snow is gone and it's going to be 55 here in Colorado.

I have downloaded the LiLGun loads and the only powder that I have that is close to some of the suggestions (4198) other's have made is 2015 br. I made some test loads with it. Powder here is hard to find like bullets and primers so you try what you have and My Accurate reloading Guide has loads for the Lyman 44grer's.
Will report back them. thanks martin

[BABore]

I'll assume that was for something like a .223 & not a Hornet?

No, I'm talking the Hornet all the way. I would have to look up my 2400 data I started with. I know I started at 5.0 grains. Max I don't recall, thus the (IIRC). Whatever the Lman cast book spec'd for max, I stopped a grain short of it and that is where my best accuracy was with that powder. I haven't used it since as I get higher velocity, with much lower pressure, using Lil Gun.

A few key things I've learned in my very short Hornet career. Neck size only cause chambers can be big on some guns. Helps center the case. Make sure the expander is the correct size for adequate boolit pull. The thin brass makes this touchy. A light crimp is fine and may not be necessary if neck tension is adequate. Primers are extremely important. With the tiny, thin case it's very easy for a hotter primer to drive the boolit out before powder ignition happens. This varies the ignition chamber size and causes great variance. I use either CCI 500 pistol primers or Rem 6 1/2's as they are the softess igniters. Cast boolit quality is extremely important. Absolutely no defects allowed. Boolits should be weight sorted with the heaviest lot with zero weight variance used for accuracy. I weigh all my powder charges because even 0.1 grs variance makes a difference.

[canyon-ghost]

That's my routine for Hornet too. With a 225438 you can only have about 3/10ths grain difference in bullet weight (for everyday shooting). Then powder worked up in 1/10ths grain increments. I do believe you really are shooting a Hornet! Sounds, oh, so familiar.

[rhead]

My 270 appreciates attention to detail. My hornet insists on it.

[wistlepig1]

Range Day report on Hornet.
Two powders used today--because that's what I had. Accurate 2015br and Lilgun.
LiLgun loads ranged from 12.0-7.5, In my gun, only the 7.5 showed usable results, that was 5 shots 4 touching one alittle low right. All others would not be a good shotgun patterns.
2015 br, 12-11.0, 11.0 was bad, 12.0 best of this test, Sub 1"
All were shot at only 50 yds.
Alll were set very close to rifleing, stoneypoint guage used to set bullet depth with.
Next trip I am going to look at the 7.5-8.0 with Lilgun and see if I can find some 4198. thanks martin

[JIMinPHX]

No, I'm talking the Hornet all the way. I would have to look up my 2400 data I started with. I know I started at 5.0 grains. Max I don't recall, thus the (IIRC). Whatever the Lman cast book spec'd for max, I stopped a grain short of it and that is where my best accuracy was with that powder.

IIRC 10 grains of 2400 in a .223 gave me over 2,000fps with a 55-gr slug. That's why I thought that 10-grains might be a bit much in a tiny little case like a Hornet.

I just thought that it might be a good idea to ask about it, that's all.

[hornsurgeon]

i'll go against the crowd here. i use the bator mold and 0.7 grains of unique. it's silent and very accurate to about 50 yards.

[bravokilo]

i'll go against the crowd here. i use the bator mold and 0.7 grains of unique. it's silent and very accurate to about 50 yards.


I have that mold and have been thinking about something along those lines. Are you using them with or w/o the gas check? They're obviously sub sonic, but have you checked velocity?


Thanks,

BK

[HORNET]

For the .22 Hornet, I find:
The 225107 is very amusing ahead of 2.9 gr of Red Dot with a WSP. Low recoil and noise, superb accuracy, drops like a rock.....
The old 225438 with the rounder nose and the dirt scraper groove worked well with 3.6 of Unique and a WSP. I use the newer version ahead of charges of H-4227 that are well beyond any current listed loads since they pressure limit went to 43,000 CUP. Rocks out right smartly.
For general purpose plinking , the 49 gr version of the 225415 ahead of 7.8 gr of SR-4759 with a R-P 7-1/2 (8.0 works with the 6-1/2 but is hard to get in the case).
Gator-checks on all......