accuracy for only 10 or 12 rounds

[jeff223]

for the first 10 or 12 rounds i am getting very good accuracy with my 357max Contender with the Lee 180 grainers with a gas check but once those rounds are shot the accuracy goes out the window.i think i am getting some leading in the throat area after this amount of shots but im not sure?just the other day i shot my best group ever at 100yds with a pistol but i only shot 10 rounds total through it.when i got home i cleaned the bore but i didnt check the patch for signs of lead.i shot yesterday at the range and for the first 10 or 12 it shot fine.i even shot some out at the 200yd target and i got about a 3.5inch group with three rounds.all of a sudden it stopped shooting good???

your thoughts about this please.maybe my boolits are top soft?

im thinking if i can get the right combo of lead hardness and good lube i should be able to shoot many rounds in a row with accuracy?im just new to cast shooting so i will neeed some ideas and advice

thanks,
jeff

[Larry Gibson]

So ok, what is the lube, the alloy and the load?

Larry Gibson

[44man]

It could be the TC barrel itself. The ones I had were so rough they picked up copper so bad it took a week to clean it out. Cast boolits would lead the bore something fierce. I sent the guns back, they replaced the barrels and the new ones were worse. I now don't own one!
If I were you, I would power lap the barrel.
I can tell you horror stories about their muzzle loader barrels.

[Bucks Owin]

Yep, sure sounds like leading to me. Here's a story of my battle with that malady...

When I finally paid off my tru$ty old Flattop this past Christmas and brought it home I knew the bore was badly copper fouled. Sheesh, the bore looked like it had a "copper lining" in it! Hours of "soak cycle" and bristle brushing with #9 kept showing the bright green patches of removed copper and I finally bought a jar of JB paste to hurry things up. When at last I had a spotless bore I couldn't believe it!
Now I have no idea how many rounds have been down that tube in it's 46 years of shooting but it's been a lot I'm sure. I even have an actual groove cut around the firing pin from gas leaking past the primers! That takes a LOT of rounds.
Anyway, the 10" bore looked like a very rough NEW bore!The circular toolmarks on top of the lands is plainly visible to the naked eye as are the lengthwise tool marks from cutting the grooves! No wonder this hogleg was so copper fouled!
The accuracy is terrific with this gun but even after extended sessions with JB, all I've managed to do is "smooth the rough edges" of all the toolmarks in the barrel. Therefore it will lead at the drop of a hat!

I'm still juggling with bullet diameter, lubes, velocities etc trying to find a cast load that I can shoot all afternoon (eg A silhouette match) without having to scrub the bore every dozen rounds. I've even gone as far as inquiring of David Clements about a conversion to .45 Colt! I'm beginning to think that may be the only way to overcome this sawtooth barrel when shooting cast boolits...

Thing is, it shoots like a rifle with jacketed bullets or the first dozen lead/cast pills...

I need help too! I've even thought of "lubing" some cast bullets with JB as a "POWER+ lap". Is my barrel par for early Blackhawks?

Dennis


BTW, gas checks DO help a lot. I can fire probably 25 rds of RCBS 225 gr GC boolits at one sitting, but my "accuracy favorite" the RCBS 250K PB will lead almost immediately....

Also BTW: My barrel seems to have a "choke". At the muzzle, the barrel slugs .4285", getting looser towards the cyl. All leading is for the first 2 to 3 inches at the "cyl end".....

[BCB]

jeff223,

I agree with 44man. I have more than a few Contender barrels and they were all rougher than a corn cob when they were new. Several of them actually had tool chatter (I don’t know if that is the correct terminology or not) grooves running perpendicular to the rifling. What a hell of a mess! Yet, with much shooting and furious cleaning (unconventional—steel brushes, J&B Bore Cleaner, and auto rubbing compound), they finally smoothed and settled down. Although it could be your cast bullets, I have had the same problems shooting jacketed bullets. The Contender barrels that I have that shoot cast very well are a 7.30 Waters and a 30-30. Both of these barrels have had thousands of jacketed bullets fired in them long before they became “cast only” shooters now. Clean, clean, and clean some more may help with your problem. Good-luck…BCB

[jeff223]

i guess i should tell you all alittle more about this barrel.this is a 357mag barrel that i rechambered to 357max.this barrel is not long throated.this barrel has had about 1000 jacketed boolits fired through it and it doesnt seem to copper foul to fast.when its fouled with copper i use Barnes CR 10 and Jb bore cleaner in it to clean it.once its been cleaned you can look down the bore and it shines just like glass.i cant seeany tooling makes in this barrel.my 445sm barrel does have these tooling marks like stated above.this 357max barrel shoots about all the jacketed boolits ive tried so far at an inch at 100yds.she is scopes up with a 3-9 Burris pistol scope with an AO.the best group i ever shot with a Contender came from this barrel with a cast boolit.i got 5/8" at 100yds with a 3 shot group.the load was 21gr of h4227 with the boolit ingraved into the lands.i used the first lube grove to crimp in rather than the crimp grove.i would say im into the lands about 1/4 of an inch.the lube i used was two coats of Lee alox.

i think i about covered it as far as back ground on the barrel.

maybe alittle more alox?alittle harder boolits?

[BCB]

jeff223,
That is interesting. I have a 445SM that is a rechamber job. And, in all honesty, I have not been able to get this barrel to shoot cast all that well either. I haven't really work with it for thousands of rounds and used the "brutal" cleaning process, but maybe it has something to do with straight-wall cases--357 Max as well as the 445SM? I got discouraged fairly quickly!!! I didn't really get bunches of leading as I was using gaschecked bullets, but accuracy was inconsistant. It is one of the two barrels that I "gave up" on with cast bullets. The other was a 223. Yet, I may get the 445 out again in the future and give it another try. Good-luck...BCB

[versifier]

Maybe a little more alox - it wouldn't hurt to try. Maybe the lube is the problem and you need to go with a different one. See if you can determine where in the barrel the leading is occurring. If it's near the muzzle, try a harder alloy - the boolits are stripping. If it's in/near the throat, try a bigger boolit or a softer alloy - the obturation is poor. This isn't always easy to determine with a handgun, but the Contender has a long enough barrel that you might be able to tell. Not all T/C's have drilling marks (the perpendicular tool marks caused by a too-dull drill), some of them as you have also found are quite good and extremely accurate. The shiny bore in yours might enable you to see where it gets dull from the buildup of lead. Put a dry patch through it to take the surface powder fouling off of the tops of the lands and look through the barrel with a bright light source like a 100w bulb. If you are unable to determine where it's building up, then you have to try harder and softer alloys and see how many shots it takes before your accuracy goes. I guess I'm just lucky with my Contender barrels, only one (a .223) I've had of twenty or so hasn't met my accuracy standards, and they replaced all the parts on it and fit it to my frame for free. The throat on my current .357mag is a little longer than I would like, but seating the boolits a little longer turns it into a tack driver. Mine prefers harder boolits like lino or 1/2lino1/2ww and liquid alox (one coat) Lyman #358156 or Lee C358-158SWCHP. I also cast the Lees out of ww's or 1/2ww1/2pure lead for hunting small game and I do get some leading after 15 or 20 shots - more than I will go through in an afternoon's hunt, so it's not an issue and the expansion is good. 5-shot groups stay around 1"-1.5" @ 50yds. This barrel also likes heavier jacketed bullets like 158 and 180gr, 5-shot groups of about the same size, and it hates 125 and 110gr, due I believe to its long throat, but I can live with it. :-D

[Bass Ackward]

maybe alittle more alox?alittle harder boolits?


Jeff,

The limiter is your lube. Many guys can't use Alox for anything over 800 fps. The fact that you make it work for 10-12 shots means that you should probably consider other options if this isn't satisfactory. If LQA works, it works. When it doesn't, it sucks.

The biggest limiter is that it doesn't provide any hydraulic pressure to maintain the bullet shape / balance under higher pressure. So you need a much harder bullet to do that. And this is also why TBL lube bullet designs don't have grease grooves to weaken the bullet strength.

[Mugs]

What dia. are your bullets?
Mugs

[JohnH]

BA is definately on to something here. Lee's liquid snot has not ever worked good for me past pistol velocities. That and a dollar will get a cup of coffee, others swear by the stuff, I can't get past swearing at it. I use FWFL and every barrel that is in condition for cast that I've used it in ain't leaded, even with soft alloy (8-10 BHN) Seems I remember you have a buddy up there that is into casting, if he has a lubesizer, try it out. RCBS Rifle Lube always worked good for me in past too

My 375 JDJ barrel was leading fiercely when I first got it. I got real extreeme, loaded up a patch with fine grit valve lapping compound and scrubbed the hell of that thing. Rather drastic, but it worked, no more leading, and my time between cleanings improved a lot as well. You're getting there a different way by shooting jacketed, but the end effect is quite the same. These days I run a dry patch every five rounds through the thing. I'm reduced charges of powders like 4895, 7383, full doses of 860, 5010, all leave a carbon build up in a hurry, but it has at least forstalled the need to have to break out brushes and solvent. thing will shoot 2" at 50 yards with most anything I put through it, two loads will put 5 into a cloverleaf, but they are traveling at least 1900 fps and are not what I consider plinking loads. Summer in on us and my out of state neighbors hae returned for the near duration, so noise is a factor, so I' won't be shooing this thing much with hunting quality loads over the next several months.

I do have one questin though, is your barrel blue or stainless? This is the first stainless barrel I've worked cast in and I wonder somedays just how user friendly stainless and cast are. As well, the twist is 1-12 which is at least 25% faster than it needs be. I've wondered how much effect that has on what I'm seeing. I know others are shooting cast in various 375's (375 Winchester, 375 H&H) with 1-12 twists, so I don't know how much a factor that really is. This thing really remionds me of the hassles I went though with my 357 Max, somedays I want to quit, but I'll be damned if a rifle barrel will have the best of me, one of us is going to die first.

[357maximum]

Jeff

lino and lube enroute, have TC doubts, but worth a try.....

You might also wanna try NOT sizing all the way down, maybe skip your last sizing operation.

[Buckshot]

................Change only one thing and try it again. My suggestion for first thing to change is lube. Set the LA to one side and go for a groove filling lube. Even try the simple and cheap NRA formula as it may work. But for sure try some other lube if you have it or can get just a quantity to try.

I like LA and use it to coat all by bore rider rifle boolts before lube-sizing. I also use it for 38 wadcutters whether they're TL design or not with remarkable results. But I don't use it for loads of any intensity. However, the next Contender bbl you get may LOVE the stuff with fire breathing loads?

But try a different lube first.

.................Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

This is the first stainless barrel I've worked cast in and I wonder somedays just how user friendly stainless and cast are. As well, the twist is 1-12 which is at least 25% faster than it needs be. I've wondered how much effect that has on what I'm seeing.


John,

No. Wrong tree on the stainless. And the only thing a faster twist has is a steeper angle up the bore that retards bullet motion in a forward direction more than it otherwise would just from inertia. Of coarse the base is taking more pressure than it has to with a faster twist, so you either have to compensate with slower powders or harder or lighter bullets.

As your bullet moves up the bore it encounters fouling that can size it down lessoning (weakening) the drive contact with the lands. This is .... or becomes the RPM effect. A slower twist rate puts less stress on all points where a cast bullet is weaker than a jacketed. Taller rifling helps too.

[44man]

I have never seen so many great answers to your problem! The solution is here in one or most of the posts. Time for you to get to work I guess and I have confidence you will solve it. You are fortunate in having a smooth bore to start with.
With that smooth of a barrel, you might not want a soft boolit that will tend to skid across the rifling. I would try and catch some boolits so you can look for skidding on the rifling marks. A hard boolit with a gas check should help.
I shoot a lot of muzzle loaders with patched round balls. Over the years I have learned the difference between rough, smooth and shootable and a high polished bore. After thousands of patched balls, the bore is 'SHOT SMOOTH" and loses accuracy because it no longer grips the ball and they skid. The old timers knew this and would plug the nipple and fill the bore with urine overnight to etch the surfaces.
I have brought back accuracy by using white vinegar overnight.
Now, I don't suggest you do that, but being super smooth, you have to find the alloy, lube and diameter that will work for you.
I would go right to a soft, very sticky Felix and get rid of anything with moly in it. You are just making the boolit more slippery. I would not use a hard rifle lube either.

[Junior1942]

Why not try something revolting & disgusting--less velocity. Drop your charge a couple of grains.

[jeff223]

thanks all for all the ideas.

this is a blued barrel and i have some new lube on the way to try out with it.i have also tried some start loads with these boolits too.im going to work at it some more and i will let you know how it comes out

thanks again

[Larry Gibson]

thanks all for all the ideas.

this is a blued barrel and i have some new lube on the way to try out with it.i have also tried some start loads with these boolits too.im going to work at it some more and i will let you know how it comes out

thanks again

Try to make sure your bullets are .001-.002" over the size of the barrel. Not sure what your velocity is but you may be pushing the alloy to much. The reason i say that is I use a softer alloy for hunting bullets in .30-.45 cals. I use Javelina alox lube and push them to 1800-2000 fps. Accuracy is good for just about 10 shots then the leading building up toward the muzzle deteriorates accuracy. the leading cleaned out with a normal cleaning and was hardly detectable.

I must be lucky with contender barrels. Granted I've only played with 11 or 12 of them (currently have 5) but I've not had any trouble getting them to shoot cast bullets well. I had a .357 10" that was quite accurate with cast. My current .22H, .223 and 30-30 carbine barrels are quite accurate.

Larry Gibson

[D.Mack]

One more thing to consider. The t/c barrel is short enough to look down , so do it, look down the barrel with a bright light at the other end, and see what kind of leading you have, and where. The type of leading and location will tell what your problem is. Also try to recover a sample of your bullet to inspect, A foot or two of water will usually help slow a bullet to reduce impact damage. Old milk jugs work great for this, plus its cool to watch. DM

[Bucks Owin]

My "homegrown bullet tester" usually stops lead bullets undamaged if they're cast hard. It's a 10" square trough with 10 ziplock bags of water backed by wet sawdust. Fun to play with, lead boolits stay undamaged but I've had the jacket rip right off of a 300 gr .44 XTP in this contraption.....

Kinda tells me something about hard lead vs jacketed

Dennis

[dragonrider]

I have about 6 barrels for my contender, no problems with any of them due to roughness, but when I got my TCR w/45-70 barrel, the chamber was literal octagonal, corners and flat sides, naturaly did not shoot worth a damn, sent it back, had a new one in a week or so. Perfect, smooth, shoots great.