Case forming - annealing.

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

I am about to run a heap of huckery old .303 Brit with split necks etc into my .303 Pygmy forming die to make new cases.

Do I form then anneal or anneal then form for best results?

[Hickory]

annel first, after you remove the split neck section.

[Bret4207]

Hickory tells it right. Make a nice difference when you form them.

[Hickory]

Sorry for the fast reply,but the wife wanted the computer.

While the brass is in a work hardened state, trim off the excess, but leave an
extra 0.030-0.060 to work with after forming.

After trimming, annel cases.

The way I annel cases is; (this is the cheap mans way)
I have an old lee primer pocket cleaner[large & small end ground down just a little] so that the shoulder of the primer pocket rest on the bottom of the case.
With a hand drill, place the primer pocket cleaner in the drill with the case on top.
Rotate in front of a low flame from a propane torch. When the area of the case you wish to annel just changes colors, stop.
I drop the case in a coffee can(metal of course) then do the next and so on.:smile:

[desteve811]

Whats the purpose of annealing? When should it be done?

[dragonrider]

Brass cases become what is called "work hardened". After being sized and resized over and over again the material will get hard. Annealing softens the brass making it easier to work. Especialy needed when sizing down cases to form a new neck in smaller caliber.

[TooManyMisses]

Hickory, you didn't say if the metal coffee can contained any water for the cooling, I assumed it did but am not sure. Could you clarify that please for some of us that are not up to speed on the annealing process.
Thanks.

TMM

[pdawg_shooter]

I used the melted lead method. Heat lead to 700, hold brass in fingers, dip neck and part of shoulder in lead till case is too hot to hold and drop in water. Very uniform that way.

[StarMetal]

If you heat brass copper alloy it anneals whether you air cool it or water quench it. Doesn't make a difference.

Joe

[squid1230]

I anneal my .308 cases after every reload and aircool. I have over 10 reloads on some of the cases.

[scrapcan]

you can also use a nut driver int eh drill and just set the case in one that will fit case head.

[Wayne Smith]

If you heat brass copper alloy it anneals whether you air cool it or water quench it. Doesn't make a difference.

Joe

True, Joe, but water cooling keeps the heat from traveling up the case and softening the head. At least that's why I do it. I'm about as far as you can get from being a metallurgist, so I don't actually know that it will or could happen. For me, just one more easy safety step.

[kamikaze1a]

I rememeber reading about setting the cases in a pan of water with the area to be annealed exposed and then applying heat evenly with a torch. The pan of water kept the heat from affecting the head...and you could treat several at a time. I guess it would not be as precise but you could do more faster....

[StarMetal]

True, Joe, but water cooling keeps the heat from traveling up the case and softening the head. At least that's why I do it. I'm about as far as you can get from being a metallurgist, so I don't actually know that it will or could happen. For me, just one more easy safety step.

Well in that case Wayne you want to deprime them and stand they in a pan of water so that just a little from before the shoulder stands out of the water, heat them up, then knock them over in the water.

Did you think I didn't know that the heat travels Wayne? That's why some hold them with their fingers and when the fingers start to feel the heat that's enough.

Joe :drinks:

[BrianB]

I may be wrong on this, but I'm 99 percent sure that water cooling will harden just about any metal. Also, the colder the water, the more brittle the metal will become. IMHO, water cooling will completely defeat the purpose of annealing.

[rockrat]

I use the lead method, but at about 800 degrees for the pure lead and a count of 5, then drop in a box to cool for the big calibers, others, I have ahomemade annealing machine a guy I knew had made.

[StarMetal]

I may be wrong on this, but I'm 99 percent sure that water cooling will harden just about any metal. Also, the colder the water, the more brittle the metal will become. IMHO, water cooling will completely defeat the purpose of annealing.

Brian, it must be that 1 percent that makes you wrong:

Annealing is a process wherein heat is applied to a metal in order to change its internal structure in such a way that the metal will become softer. Most of us think of "heat treating" when we think of applying heat to a metal in order to change its internal structural properties. The word "heat treating" is most commonly associated with steel. However, the term heat treating is not annealing, except in a general and journalistic sense of the word. Heat-treating refers to a process wherein the metal is made harder. Annealing always means to make the metal softer.In order to make steel harder, it is heated to some temperature, and then cooled fairly rapidly, although this is not always the case. Brass, on the other hand, cannot be made harder by heating it--ever. Brass is always made softer by heating.
The only way brass can be made harder is to "work" it. That is, the brass must be bent, hammered, shaped or otherwise formed. Once it has been made hard, it can be returned to its "soft" state by annealing. The hardness of brass can be controlled by annealing for a specified time and temperature.
Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass. Cartridge cases are made of brass. When cartridge cases have been reloaded a number of times, the case necks become harder. Annealing will return the cartridge case necks to their factory original state.


You quench the brass to rapidly stop the heat from reaching the case head area because if you soften that you best throw your brass away....it's dangerous then.


Joe

[303Guy]

Brass age hardens too. Water quenching stops the crystal structure regrowth that would otherwise occur as the brass cools slowly. If the cases are standing in water there is no need to knock them over nor is there a need to remove the primers. Cooling through conduction is rapid enough. There will be quite a distance from the water level and the annealing level. The purpose of knocking the cases over is so you know which are done and which still need to be done!

[runfiverun]

here this should help
http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

[carpetman]

After I have annealed 12 more cases I will have annealed an even dozen. Reason I don't do it, I don't want to extend the life of the neck past the rest of the case, I want the neck to split as the first sign the brass has been overworked. Split neck is no problem--case head separation is. To me it's like defeating a fuse. I dont shoot any rounds where I reform brass to make them, in that case it is probably something that should be done. I have reformed a few cases in the past but it was a fairly minor alteration.

[qajaq59]

I usually anneal if they need to be trimmed. That usually happens after roughly 4 or 5 loads with the rifles.

[XWrench3]

annealing is more of an art form for us poor folks who can not afford a fancy machine to do it properly. i have ruined quite a few cases by over anealing them, to the point whare there is no real tension left to hold the bullet. so you really have to be carefull how much heat you apply and for how long. next time i get to the big city, i am going to stop at a welding shop and see if i can buy some of that "tempilaq" marker stuff. the "paint" melts when you reach the temp you want. so you do not get the case to hot and ruin it. the only real benifit to having the case in water, is to make sure the bottom half of the case does not get annealed. if that happens, you have recycle material, it is just scrap metal at that point.

[StarMetal]

Brass age hardens too. Water quenching stops the crystal structure regrowth that would otherwise occur as the brass cools slowly. If the cases are standing in water there is no need to knock them over nor is there a need to remove the primers. Cooling through conduction is rapid enough. There will be quite a distance from the water level and the annealing level. The purpose of knocking the cases over is so you know which are done and which still need to be done!

Gee, and I was thinking all along that it was holy water!! :kidding:

Joe

[BrianB]

Brian, it must be that 1 percent that makes you wrong:

Annealing is a process wherein heat is applied to a metal in order to change its internal structure in such a way that the metal will become softer. Most of us think of "heat treating" when we think of applying heat to a metal in order to change its internal structural properties. The word "heat treating" is most commonly associated with steel. However, the term heat treating is not annealing, except in a general and journalistic sense of the word. Heat-treating refers to a process wherein the metal is made harder. Annealing always means to make the metal softer.In order to make steel harder, it is heated to some temperature, and then cooled fairly rapidly, although this is not always the case. Brass, on the other hand, cannot be made harder by heating it--ever. Brass is always made softer by heating.
The only way brass can be made harder is to "work" it. That is, the brass must be bent, hammered, shaped or otherwise formed. Once it has been made hard, it can be returned to its "soft" state by annealing. The hardness of brass can be controlled by annealing for a specified time and temperature.
Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass. Cartridge cases are made of brass. When cartridge cases have been reloaded a number of times, the case necks become harder. Annealing will return the cartridge case necks to their factory original state.


You quench the brass to rapidly stop the heat from reaching the case head area because if you soften that you best throw your brass away....it's dangerous then.


Joe

Ummm...Huh?

[runfiverun]

brass acts the opposite of lead.