Sizing down "big" bullets......

[bcp477]

Is it practical to size down bullets of 0.358" diameter, in two or more steps, to 0.314"....for paper-patching ? I currently buy bullets of 0.323 - 0.324" dia....and sizing them down (with a Lee push-through die) is no problem. I want to expand my choices in bullets, namely something closer to 200 grains. I have found 190 grain bullets of 0.358" dia., for the .358 Win., 35 Rem. , etc. These bullets, like the ones I use now, are BHN 12 - 15. So, what I want to do is obtain one or more intermediate sized push-through dies.....so that I might size the 190's down from .358 to .314. A check of Lee's standard push-through bullet die sizes gives the choices of 0.329" and 0.323" (between .0314" and 0.358"). Is it practical, with a good lube, to size from 0.358" to 0.323".....then on to 0.314" ? Or 0.358" to 0.329".....then on to 0.314" ? I am not really concerned about the second "jump"..... 0.329" or 0.323" to 0.314" - I expect no real problems there. However, from 0.358" to 0.329" (or 0.323") is a pretty big jump. I am considering lapping the 0.329" die out to something more like 0.338" or so, to make the first "jump" easier. Then, I can go to 0.323....and then to 0.314". The lube grooves don't matter, because the resulting bullets will be paper-patched.

Any thoughts ? Bad idea ? Workable idea ? Anyone else size down such large bullets ?

[docone31]

Why would you do that?
You can get the Lee C303-B mold and size it to .314.
That is a large jump.

[bcp477]

I knew someone would jump into that aspect. Sorry, I should have made it clear. I don't cast - I can't cast - I won't be casting. (Health issues). So, I am limited to purchasing my own bullets.... hence the question pertaining to purchased bullets. So, no more need to suggest what mould to get, OK ? Thanks.

[303Guy]

I've played around some with sizing, squishing and squashing boolits and I don't see any problem. I have managed to size a torpedo down into a banana! That was a sizing die problem. When I use that same die, slightly modified to make two-diameter paper patch cores, I 'swage' the nose and push out the way it went in and they come out real straight! So, sizing 358 boolits down to 314? Let me go and make a die or two and find out. Maybe I can use that box of 9mm boolits in my 303 Brit. Mmmm..... Thanks for the idea!

[303Guy]

Well, I made a die and tried sizing down a few 90gr RN 9mm boolits. I'm afraid the punch is going to be a problem meaning it will have to be done in stages otherwise the boolit base extrudes past the punch! I did not try a cup shaped punch and my die actually needs more polishing on the taper.

[bcp477]

Thanks, 303guy. I had a feeling that the punch might be the kicker....if trying to go too large of a "jump" at once. I know that 10 thousandths is not a problem, as I go from .324" to .314" now. I would guess that, perhaps, 15 thousandths or so might be OK.....but perhaps not any more than that. If so, that would be .358" - .343" - .328" - .314"..... something like that. So, it seems that I could get TWO .329 dies..... and enlarge one to something like .340" - .345"...... and leave the other alone. Or, get a .329 and have Lee do a custom .345" die for me.

I wondered if anyone else had tried this, admittedly, hair-brained idea before..... and how it worked. I guess that there isn't much interest or need for this sort of thing.... especially for those who cast their own. Well, necessity is the mother of invention.....as they say. I have to make do on a lot of things....so this is probably one of those things.

[Digital Dan]

Conventional wisdom says the more you size, the less accuracy you will have.

[303Guy]

Conventional wisdom says the more you size, the less accuracy you will have. Point taken! My tests showed the stubby little 90grainer did not swage down evenly but I put that down to the base punch not being central and too big of a step down in one hit. The lube groove did not iron out evenly either. A solution could be to actually swage the bullet against a top punch to get complete 'fill-out'. I do this when forming my 303 Brit PP cores.

[yondering]

Conventional wisdom says the more you size, the less accuracy you will have.

Agreed. I've found that the sizing itself is no problem, but sizing uniformly can be difficult. I've sized .358 rifle boolits to .309" in one step with the lee dies (polished of course) but they size off-center.

bcp477, sound like you are buying boolits; have you looked at Beartooth Bullets? They have several offerings in .314" for the 303, although the heaviest is only 170gr. They also have .338 boolits that could be sized down easier than a .358".
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Alternatively, since you can't cast your own, why not get some from a forum member here? If someone here doesn't have what you want (already sized to .314", I'm sure someone would be willing to cast you a large supply of boolits if you buy them the mold. I've done that for friends in the past, works out pretty well. They get boolits, I get a new mold. You could design a mold to your specifications at Mountain Molds.

[StarMetal]

I don't have all the problems mentioned here. I also consider myself King of the size down. I've done some drastic sizing down with very good results. One reason maybe is I use my Lyman luber/sizer in most instance and size down in increments. That way there's not off centered sizing because the gentle taper leads the bullet in straight.

If you size down evenly, straight, how's conventional wisdom going to say it ruins accuracy. Again, myth. Yeah back in the old days when the H/I dies didn't have the right leade in I can see them off centering bullets and shaving them in worse instances. I also feel drastic sizing is like swaging sort of. It may collapse voids.....who knows.

Ask Larry Gibson about me sizing down RCBS 9mm's and RCSB 357 SWC to .309 for my 30 Carbine and how it shot.

Joe

[bcp477]

My thanks to all for taking time to comment/ answer. The uniformity issue never occured to me. Something to think about, certainly. As for other bullet possibilities, the real limitation is that anything much more than 200 grains will be too long, especially when sized to .314". I have tried the 236 grain Karabiner bullet....which is quite long. I tried them at .324", gas-checked.....not even sized down and paper-patched..... and was never able to get them to work at all well in my Yugo M48. Chambering problems were only overcome by seating the bullets so deeply that I was afraid that there would be no room for powder. (half - joking) I have concluded that, at least for my rifle, looong bullets won't get it, even given the relatively long throat of the typical Mauser. So, 230 - 250 grain bullets are not promising..... and I will avoid them. So, I think that close to 200 grains will be the thing. This fits with the fact that the issue ammunition had a standard bullet weight of 198 grains.

Mind you, I am having very good results with the 174 - 175 grain bullets I am currently using, so this is not a "do or die" matter....but I'd LIKE to work out something to get to around 200 grains. It may not end up as a practical matter to size down alot, but we'll see. Another possibility of which I know is a 200 grain Saeco bullet cast by Montana Bullet Works. But, these are almost $20.00 per hundred, plus $11.00 shipping. I need to keep costs down, it's as simple as that. I could buy 500 and get the same shipping price, but I don't want to do that, if I don't even know that they will be good for my rifle. It is a possibility, anyway.

At any rate, I will give the matter more consideration.

[JKH]

bcp477,

Have you made progress? I have a LEE 8mm Karaminer mold on the way that will nominally cast a 215grn slug depending on alloy (should cast around .324" to .325"), I would be more than happy to cast you a hundred or so just for the cost of shipping. I also have a LEE .30 caliber mold that throws some nice slugs a bit over 200 grains (around 207 I believe with WW's), as cast diameter is .312" to .313", with that one you wouldnt have to size it down and with slightly heavier paper you can bring it up to the desired final diameter. I used to paper patch .308 jacketed bullets for an old 88 sporter with .318" bore using 20 lb paper with I think about 10% cotton content, worked excedingly well in my K98k-ZF41 sniper as well and an old Chinese 88 with a sewer pipe bore.

Let me know if you want some cast, I should have the Karabiner mold by the end of next week.

Jeff

[bcp477]

JKH,

I just happened by this thread....and read your post. Thank you very much - your offer is very kind. I think I shall, with much gratitude and humbleness , pass on your offer for now. I have ordered a custom die from Lee.... at 0.340"....and when that arrives, I will order some 0.358 bullets to try. I already have a 0.323 die, in addition to my 0.314....so I will be able to go from 0.358 to 0.340..... to 0.323 to 0.314. I think that it will work - but we shall see. Your 215 grain 0.324 - 5 bullet sounds very tempting, but I am looking for bullets that I will be able to get on demand - and I would never ask anyone to supply me with bullets without proper payment. I certainly could take you up on your offer, but then, I'd have to re-work whatever load I found, when the custom die arrives, as the bullets I buy will be different. I can get all the bullets I need from my usual supplier....and they have a good selection from which to choose. So, as long as the resizing will work acceptably, hopefully I shall be good to go. I'll report back here as to the results, when the time comes.

So again, thank you very much for your kind offer, but I will decline for now.

[docone31]

A lube I use with downsizing is Dawn Dish soap.
It rinses off pretty easily.

[JKH]

bcp477,

I fully understand your logic as it makes a great deal of sense, and i also understand your desire to experiment, you have a well thought out plan which should bear fruit.

My offer stands at any time though, I would be willing to cast at least several hundred at a time for postage and a modest fee (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 waht you pay for commercial boolits) as I seem to get more enjoyment out of casting and loading during cold NY winters than shooting as I get older (maybe if I got some electric long john's I would enjoy it more!).

I have sized down many jacket bullets for that .318" bore 88 sporter using a push through die similar to the LEE, mine was custom made by a guy twenty years ago that advertised in one of the gun rags, it uses interchangeable bushings in a universal body that fits in a press like the LEE (7/8x14), I have a number of different bushings that take only moments to change out. I started using lithium grease which worked reasonably well but soon tryed my old standby case lube, Hornady Unique paste which is basically mink oil paste (a small 4 oz tube is still 2/3rd's full after nearly 30 years of loading!). The Hornady lube works very well and takes a very modest amount, it has a high film strength and seems to work with lead boolits equally well. I believe an oil treatment such as STP would also work well but the Hornady lube simply wipes off with no residue whereas anything with a petroleum base may or may not (plus it wont maek your fingers nice and soft like the mink oil paste, nice side benefit).

So, please keep us posted on your interesting experiment and dont hesitate to ask if you want me to cast you up a batch of boolits.

Jeff