Meister 257 bullets in 25-20

[rickster]

I generally use jacketed bullets for my rifles, but I shoot a lot, so… prices and availability of bullets are causing me to experiment with cast bullets. Lately I have been trying to get Meister 85gr plain base cowboy bullets to shoot in my Rem Mo 25, 25-20 walk around gun. Tried a wide variety of powders and the only thing that works well is a full load of Trail Boss giving 1100 to 1150fps. Although this is nice load, quiet and accurate, there is no expansion. Anything hotter gives blowby and poor accuracy.

I have 2 questions (for starters) for the 25-20 fans here.

First, has anyone successfully driven Meister 25 cal bullets above 1200fps? My impression is that the grease grooves are such that they weaken the bullet base. Also, the bore in this gun is frosted.

Second, even though I live in a sparsely populated area, I prefer light fragile bullets for most of my walk around shooting. The idea of launching a hard 85gr 257 bullet skyward doesn’t appeal to me. I typically use lightweight jacketed HP bullets in the 218 (33gr) and 32-20 (60gr). The best thing I know of for the 25-20 is the Hornady 60gr bullet. Any suggestions along this line?

[j23]

Well, just a few notes regarding your post...

Firstly, youre not going to get any expansion with that Meister bullet. They are cast way too hard for expansion unless you are driving them over 2000 fps (not possible in the little 25-20... ) and even then Im going to guess that it will be more of a fragmentation than expansion.

Secondly, just with your bore being frosted, you should be able to shoot cast accurately... did you ever remove all and I mean ALL of the copper fouling from the bore before moving to cast... I have had to do that with several used Winchester 94's Ive purchased over the years.

Trailboss and the 25-20 are a match made in heaven, at least in my original 1892, though I am using the 25-85-CM by RCBS cast from straight wheelweights, air cooled with a BHN of around 12. The trailboss load I use cranks them up to a whopping 1100 fps (approx.) and to be honest, Im not sure if even they expand, though I doubt it. Ive gotten complete passthroughs on everything Ive shot with it including squirrels, rabbits, a feral cat, turkey and a goose. Instant death to all; none of the above took a step.

I wouldnt worry about shooting skyward (Im assuming at squirrels) with that load. If it is accurate, it will serve your 'walk about' purposes on everything up to deer (not including deer of course.) Think about this; people shoot hundreds of rounds skyward daily in the fall hunting squirrels with 22lr's with a bullet moving several hundred fps faster. ...add another several hundred fps with the .22 Magn-a-tizer.

If you need any help with your 25-20 let me know. Ive messed around with mine enough. 35Remington, who posts in this forum is VERY knowleable.

Hope this helps!
Joe

[kelbro]

I have tried a lot, OK well not a lot only 1/2 dozen or so, bullets in my 25-20 over the past 40 yrs and the little 60gr Hornady is the fastest but the 75gr has been the most accurate for me and it will hit just under 2K fps with 4227. I killed a lot of game with the 86s when that was all that was available. Never tried to cast for that rifle.

[rickster]

Thanks for the feedback fellas.

Those 85gr hard cast sure do penetrate. 6 milk jugs full of water wont stop them. Makes shooting turtles in water too easy. Aim for the body under the water. Hit a big snapper the other day. First time I have seen a 2 foot diameter pool of blood in the water. Pretty sure one of those little missiles falling out of the sky would do more than cause a bruise. Depends a lot on where you live I suppose. The parts of WV I have seen were near vertical and heavily wooded, offering protection from errant bullets. Although I have nice timber on my property, the surrounding area is rolling prairie.

I wont be too disappointed if I have to settle for 1125fps. That is plenty for 90% of the field shots I take. And easy on the ears. Especially if I keep some full throttle J60gr in my pocket, just in case.

Kelbro, in what rifle are you getting the accuracy with the 75gr Speers? I have about 400 of those on hand, but havent worked with them yet. Is that your favorite bullet these days?

[kelbro]

It's my Savage Sporter. First rifle when I was a kid. Lots of meat put on the table with that rifle. Yes, that is my favorite bullet. I'm away from the house right now so I'm not sure about the load.

I do have a bunch of accumulated load data (cast and jacketed) from various sources for the 25-20 that I would be happy to e-mail anybody that needs it. Just PM me with your e-mail addy and I'll get it out to you.

[rickster]

Yes thanks Kelbro. I would appreciate the load information. I would be especially interested in what load you have found most USEFUL after all these years. PM coming.

On a side note: I just want to say that I think you are lucky to have had that rifle from the beginning. I discovered a 32-20 Sporter in an old gun shop a few years ago. That led to a 25-20 Sporter from GB. What a treasure. They have such uncanny field accuracy. So easy to hold steady, owing to their fine balance….You can probably hit anything you can see, without consciously aiming. I am sure the Sporter would be my favorite, instead of the Mo 25, had not a pump action BB gun been my first, followed by a Rem Mo 12, and then a pump shotgun.

[rickster]

j23 I forgot to answer your question about removing copper. I probably wont bother to get the copper out in that I intend to shoot both cast and jacketed in this rifle, and I am more interested in field accuracy than bench grade accuracy. But that is an interesting observation that I will file away for future use.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned, those Meister cast bullets are hard and will not expand at 25-20 velocities. Neither will WWs reliably considering a PB'd bullet.

My 25-20 is aSavage Sporter also. While jacketed bullets do extremely well in it the rifle/cartridge beg for a cast bullet. I have a 257283HP which is still a PB bullet. Cast soft enough for reliable expansion with recovered .22LR lead I push it to around 1100 fps and it does an excellent job, much better than .22LR HVHPs. However, I like to cast the 257420, a GC bullet, out of WWs - lead at 50-50. At 1850 fps over 10 gr of H4227 or 11 gr of 5744 they are deadly on varmints. This is especiall the case when I HP the nose about 1/8" deep with the Forster 1/8" HP tool.

However, when cast of pure lead and HP'd they can be driven to 1050 fps with very good accuracy for 50-75 yard squirrel shooting with Bulleye powder. Those really thump the squirrels. While still noisy it is considerably less than the heavier loads when heard by the neighbors. Also being subsinic noise of the sonic crack is also absent. My guess is that is what you are looking for.

Larry Gibson

[rickster]

257420 sounds like just the ticket Larry. Most of my test and practice rounds go into a plastic 55gal barrel filled with dirt. Must be thousands of rounds in there waiting to be melted.

How fast can you shoot soft lead with a GC installed?

[35remington]

I've shot the Meister bullet a fair amount myself.

Some loads that work, a few among many:

Repeat the Trailboss! 3.4 grains goes to the start of the shoulder and gets about 1090 fps, little deviation in velocity, no chance of double charging.

3 to 3.3 grains of W231 for 1150 fps.

5.5 2400 for 1250 to 1300 fps

9 grains H or IMR 4198 for 1400 fps

6.5-7 grains IMR 4227 (it's really H4227, repackaged as IMR) 1200 to 1300 fps

The first two loads have a bit more noise than a .22 long rifle but far less than a .22 magnum. The slower powders are a little louder, with 4198 being the loudest of the "slow" powder trio listed.

Like the other guys said, I wouldn't worry about the lack of expansion. The 25-20 doesn't need it to produce quick kills on small game - the heavier weight, bigger caliber and flat nose produce quite noticeably more killing effect than a .22 long rifle hollowpoint.

I wouldn't think the nonexpansion is an issue for tree squirrel shooting. If you make sure the shot is at a safe angle, or is backstopped by a tree, whether the bullet expands or not is moot. It is the intact bullet that misses everything but the blue sky that carries the farthest and is the greatest danger.

There is some mild gas cutting on the base band with the above loads, more so with the fast powders, and this can be moderated with a little bit of dacron when used with the slower powders.

Try this to see if it helps groups; at the low velocities I've always been convinced that most 25-20 bullets are a little to a lot overlubricated. Remove the lubricant from the top band on the Meister bullet and see if it helps groups, mostly in the reduction of flyers and reduced "lube purging." Also, remove the lubricant completely and try a light coating of LLA or Johnson's Paste Wax and see if the light coating helps things. With most lube groove bullets that have filled lube grooves I've found the first shot or two from a cold barrel, even if conditioned by past firing, will be out of the group until the barrel gets relubed, odd as that sounds. If you do a lube switch make sure you condition the barrel for several shots before evaluating accuracy.

I've had better luck with a light coat of LLA or JPW and don't suffer from first shot flyers any more. I haven't needed to check my zero before a hunt in quite some time. The RCBS Cowboy 85 FN is especially guilty of overlubrication, and filled lube grooves will drive you to distraction in trying to obtain accuracy with that bullet. Lubed as I prefer (unfilled grooves, tumble lubed in LLA) water quenched from the oven to harden the bullet and to prevent the unfilled lube grooves from collapsing and used with a little dacron at velocities from 1100 to 1400 fps it's my favorite small game bullet. Kills very well. The meplat on the RCBS is the largest available of any cast bullet design - it's a little LBT WFN in effect.

The problem with switching from a cast 85/1100-1400 fps load to a 60 grain 2000+ fps load is point of impact. The little 60 hits unreasonably high with the same zero, making load switching unlikely. Best I can do is the RCBS bullet at 1100 to 1400 interchanged with our own Lee group buy 80 grain gascheck at 1900 for called predators. This load hits about two inches above the milder load at 50 yards. More velocity makes point of impact divergence unreasonable.

I think you're now in the market for the RCBS and Lyman 257420 to accomplish your dual purpose hunting. Don't be put off about using the Lyman bullet on larger game; at high speeds it kills very well, and at impact the nose puckers into a bigger flatpoint, even if cast of linotype like these bullets:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02116.jpg

The bullet on the left is the Speer 75 FN shot at 2150 fps; middle is the Lee group buy cast of wheelweights (air cooled) at 1900; right is the Lyman 257420 cast of linotype at 1950. Notice the flattening of the meplat at this velocity despite the hard alloy. Of course it will expand well when cast of wheelweights, but I've never had any luck using the Lyman bullet cast of ACWW's at over 2000 fps. My 1-10 twist barrel is part of the reason why this is so. Accuracy at the high speeds was always better when the bullet was hard in my faster twist barrel. All the bullets shown shot at 50 yards into wet phone books.

Here's meplat flattening of the RCBS bullet despite being cast of HTWW's, BHN 27. Far left bullet was at 1100 fps; far right was near 1500 fps, the highest usable velocity with accuracy. The middle ones were at middling velocities between the named extremes. Impacts at 25 yards in wet phone books.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC01762.jpg

[kelbro]

35Rem, doggone it, now you have me thinking about casting for this little rifle. The 25-20 has been maligned over the years as an underpowered round. I have killed lots of coyotes, turkey, wild hogs (in the ear) and (heaven forbid) a few freezers full of small whitetail with mine. To avoid any 'wars', I understand that there are better rounds for deer and I don't use the 25-20 for them anymore. I think I read that the record whitetail was killed way back when with a 25-20.

I used the 86gr factory loads and factory bullets in my loads for everything but yotes. The 75gr is devastating on yotes at or under 100yds which is my limit with this rifle and the open sights.

[35remington]

Oh, you gotta cast! I cast six different designs myself. It is a very fine round with the cast bullet and very useful for hunting.

If more people had tried this cartridge, they would realize how good it is at what it does.

Underpowered? How does Brian Pearce's load of 14.2 grains 1680 with the Speer 75 FN for 2192 fps sound?

That ain't underpowered no more. Certainly not for coyote sized game.

[roadie]

35Rem, doggone it, now you have me thinking about casting for this little rifle. The 25-20 has been maligned over the years as an underpowered round. I have killed lots of coyotes, turkey, wild hogs (in the ear) and (heaven forbid) a few freezers full of small whitetail with mine. To avoid any 'wars', I understand that there are better rounds for deer and I don't use the 25-20 for them anymore. I think I read that the record whitetail was killed way back when with a 25-20.

I used the 86gr factory loads and factory bullets in my loads for everything but yotes. The 75gr is devastating on yotes at or under 100yds which is my limit with this rifle and the open sights.

It's a good thing you don't try to fill the freezer these days with a 25-20, I doubt it's up to the Kevlar the deer are wearing now.

The old boy that taught me how to build guns lived for many years during the Great Depression and fed his family with a Win 92 SRC in 25-20.
It was his favorite for many years till he got his first .257 Roberts and his favorite load was the old Dominion Pneumatic load, a hollow point 86 gr. IIRC with a dimpled cap over the bullet tip.

I would like to try some for my 92, but they are somewhat scarce now, he claimed they made a real mess out of a deer's internals. And those lil 25-20's will shoot won't they?

roadie

[rickster]

Great post there 35Rem! My trials enveloped the loads you mentioned, except the W231 which I don't have on hand. I was surprised I didn't have better luck, considering Quickload estimates the pressures of the loads to be in the 10 to 15Ksi range. I also ran some of the trials in a Savage Sporter which has a near perfect bore. Results were the same.

You have me curious about the lube business. I was getting lots of smoke at anything over about 1200fps. I think I will play around with your suggestions.

Not sure what you are getting at when you say to repeat TB. Got lots of data on TB, at various load densities. And TB is an old friend. So I dont see a need to repeat anything there, unless I missed your drift.

Got an idea bouncing around in my head for a bullet trap that would let me check the fired bullets.

Wont be able to do any shooting for the next week, but will make up for lost time later.

The change of impact with velocity thing is something I can deal with.

OBTW. Looks like I am just south of you, midway between Concordia and Salina.

Thanks for the input guys. You have given me some things to think about and try. I really appreciate this board being so knowledgeable and willing to help. I know it takes time to write those long posts.

Better get to bed.

[Bullshop]

Biggest thing I ever kilt with the 25/20 was a smalish size black bear, bout 150 pounds.
I am perty sure I was using wc 820 with the little 75gn Lyman boolit. Charge unkown from this seat, would have to go to the shop to check. Velocity was as I recall 2300 fps or there bouts. I could check up on the load if anyone needs it.
A hit just below and behind the ear messed up his head real bad. Rifle was a handy little Marlin 94. That little Marlin went to my Dad when I left Mt. We both knew it was the last time we would see each other. He said he would like to have it so it stayed with him. Got a dandy little Savage 340 that someone made a silk perse of a sows ear. Its a 25 copper head and does all what the little 25/20 did and then some.
What I can say about the little Marlin and the little Lyman boolit is it liked to go fast. At the incredable speed of 2300 fps it came into its own sweet spot for accuracy. Working up the load was wild. I went past any listed loads with any powders anywhere near the burn rate of wc 820 but the more I kept going up the better it kept shooting.
It absolutely destroyed ravens that were silly enough to land withing 100 yards of my shop. I left the factory bead front on it but put on an old Lyman peep rear. Within 100 yards or just a bit more small varmints were in big trouble.
For small edible game I like the old standard Winchester load with thier 85gn FN boolit at about 1300 FPS. I have a set of origonal Winchester molds for that boolit marked 25/20, one a solid nose and one a HP. They are treasures for the little 25's and shoot wonderfully well for the origonal type loads.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[jwhite]

I used to use the Meister bullet a lot in my Marlin 25/20. My three favorite loads with this boolit were:
2.7gr unique - 928fps
6.5gr IMR 4227 - 1133fps
11.5 gr IMR 4198 - 1626fps

As mentioned already the 257420 is a great mold, my go to load these days is this boolit loaded with 11gr Data 68, I can go up to 14grs Data 68 but for the sake of case life I settled on 11gr. My favorite small game load is the lee plain base group buy boolit, seated backwards loaded with the smallest lee dipper(2.7gr) unique. For some reason this boolit seated backwards groups better than it does loaded normally. I seat it so that when chambering a round I just feel a little resistance as the base of boolit touches the throat. They look a little strange but shoot great and hit hard, heck they even feed through the Marlin loaded that way. Not sure if you have read the 25-20 info over on the Marlin owners forum (reloading section) posted by 35Remington but it 5 or 6 pages of posts regarding the 25-20. Not sure how to post a link but maybe someone could do that. It would be nice to have all of the 35Remington posts over on this forum as well, it is a great collection of info.

It would be nice if we could all start hounding Starline to make a run of 25/20 brass, they make the 32/20 already. Might be a good group buy to consider?

[35remington]

What I meant about the Trailboss is that I found it was a good choice in powders as well. I was rather skeptical of it initially, as I didn't see what it could do that another fast powder couldn't. I also thought it was overpriced, but I now admit it has a niche, and the mild 25-20 load was one of them.

As velocity increased greatly past 1100-1150 fps, accuracy fell off, and fliers increased, but then that's true of all the fast powders I've tried.

If the 25-20 won't shoot cast bullets, it's time to investigate the chamber/throat. I've seen some badly cut chambers, and had one myself in a T/C Custom Shop barrel. As issued, and despite my best efforts, it just wasn't gonna work. Wound up throating it, then moving on anyway to an OTT barrel for my Contender Carbine.

[rickster]

So, what do you guys think of this Paco Kelly trick?

...they are cast hard, left for 24 hours, then lubed .358 and then placed in a pan of water up to the leading edge and then the noses are de-tempered with a butain torch... it allows the nose to be soft and expand and the body to stay hard and resist fouling....

[Bullshop]

I think that a 25 cal flat nose boolit at the carbine potential velocity within its range and game size for which it is intended does not need to expand to cause destruction of tissue. The flat nose with fairly high velocity will do the work.
This past week we have been hunting rabbits for sausage meat. We generally take about 100 rabbits for this. My favorite rifles for rabbits are the 22 ccm and the 25 copperhead. A couple day ago I went out with an old friend and we shot about a dozen with the 25 copperhead. The load is shooting the 85gn Lyman Loverin RNGC at 2400 fps.
The alloy is 6/1 WW to lino quenched and tests at 24 BHN. Even with this very hard round nose they are incredably distructive. A solid head shot consistantly leaves only a bit of skin left, and a forward body hit destroys the front half.
Its interesting to do the soft nose trick but for small game absolutely not needed.
Perhaps when the little 25 is used for game that is on the outer limit in size a soft nose might help but then penitration will be comprimised. On the small bear I shot with the 25/20 the top of the head was completely blown off. That was with the Lyman 75gn FNGC at 2300 fps muzzle velocity and the hit about 50 yards.
BIC/BS

[35remington]

The "detempering the nose portion" bit is very difficult to judge.

If any substantial amount of bullet is left above the waterline, the nose melts and slumps right about when you're wondering if the bullet's been heated enough. It happens pretty suddenly.

If only a small amount of bullet is above the waterline, you can try to heat it until you're blue in the face and it will be no go - because the close proximity of the water wicks away the heat before the nose softens, or you have to blast it with the heat for such a prolonged time that it's really hard to judge where you're at in terms of just how hot the nose of the bullet has become.

I've tried it. With long skinny bullets it's a disaster. It's also hard to do consistently even with a favorably shaped bullet.

I imagine there are some that can make it work, but I don't think it's worth the hassle for me.

I'm with Bullshop here - the flatnose at high velocity is all that is needed. At lower velocities, ACWW's expand just fine down to impact velocities of about 1400 fps or so. Below that, a hollowpoint is needed for ACWW's to near 1000 fps impact velocity, and lower than that you'll have to go to Larry Gibson's "long rifle alloy" hollowpoints to get any expansion.

Truthfully, the flatnose works at 1100 fps muzzle velocities as well. The RCBS has plenty of nose flat.

[Bret4207]

I'm also a Savage Sporter owner, 3 in fact- 2 25-20's and a 32-20. Whoops- make that 4, I have the 22 LR version too. For small game a 75-90 gr boolit at 1200+ fps will take anything up to (and including!) deer. It's almost too much for squirrels and if you juice it will do for coyote out to the practical range limits.

Softnosing? Paco makes it sound easy. It isn't. With a good FN you don't need expansion.

[rickster]

Tried the Paco detempering trick. No joy. Even though, with a little practice, I got to where I could remove the heat just before the tip slumped or before the lube melted. (gotta be quick) Thought maybe I had it figured out. But when I checked some of the ones that I thought were the best, I couldn’t tell any difference in hardness between the “softened” and the original bullets.

[Bret4207]

I always want to believe what Paco says works, but I often find my results differ, sometimes drastically. He still writes up some interesting ideas.

[Three44s]

I'm also a Savage Sporter owner, 3 in fact- 2 25-20's and a 32-20. Whoops- make that 4, I have the 22 LR version too. .......................................


AH ........... HA!

Now, I know why I can't find one little 'ole Savage Sporter in .25-20!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cat ...........

....... is out'a da bag!!!!

Bret is HOARDING 'em

LOL!

(Someday ......... I'll beat him to one of them!)

Three 44s

[Bret4207]

344- I find then occasionally. At one time I knew where there were 4 for sale, 3 with missing magazines. You'd think someone would make the mags as a get rich slow idea.

[rickster]

500+ rounds later………

I tried most if not all of the suggestions in this thread, and a few ideas of my own. What follows is a series of posts describing my findings.

Bottom line is that the best suggestion, for my purposes, came from Jwhite who suggested loading the bullets backwards. I initially discounted this idea, but once I tried it, I was sold. J was right, the bullets hit very hard this way, and are as accurate, or maybe even more accurate. And they feed fine in the Rem 25.

Best loads for the Rem 25 with a frosted bore were all between 950 and 1050fps. This load is quiet and hits hard. I’ll give the details of the load, and others, in one of the next posts, but first some pics.

The picture with 10 balls show experiments done to determine the relative shock delivered by some walk around loads. These were done before I started reversing the bullets. The 6 hedge balls on the left were shot with a Meister 85gr at 1130fps (case full of Trail Boss). Notice that 2 of the 6 balls split. I believe this was due to bullet yaw, as I will explain later. The next two balls were shot with a 32-20/115gr Lasercast FN at 970fps. Next is a 22LR (Federal HV HP). Next is a Meister at 1300fps. The last 2 were shot with a 25-20 60gr Hornady at 1800fps (This is a mild load for this bullet. At full throttle, the ball is turned mush and widely scattered). Finally, the piece of mush on the right end is all that is left of a ball hit with of a 60gr (32ACP) hollowpoint at 1350fps from a Mo 25 in 32-20 (and a case full of Trail Boss). I luv that last load, but those bullets are getting hard to come by at a reasonable price.

The picture with 4 balls shows the effect of 85gr Meisters shot backward. Velocity at the left was 850fps, then 970fps, then 1030fps and last on the right was 1130fps. Note that all of these loads hit harder than any of the loads in the other picture, except the 60gr 32-20.

[rickster]

Regarding powders, I tried Clays, Red Dot, Grn Dot, Unique, Herco, Bullseye, 2400 Lil Gun, 4198, RL7, 2015, Trail Boss, 4227, SR4756, SR4759 and probably some others I have forgotten.

For the Rem Mo 25 with 24 inch frosted barrel I settled on 2.45gr of IMR PB for just under 1000fps. It burns clean and is just the right speed. (Thanks go to Nodakjack for suggesting PB in a previous thread). Comparable flake powders, such as Unique, don’t meter well in such small quantities. Trailboss was also highly variable.

1 inch groups at 50yds are the norm with this load, not counting occasional fliers. Stray 0.1 grain either way from the sweet spot and groups open quickly, to as much as 6 inches.

Runners up were 1.84gr of Bullseye and 4.4gr of 2400. Bullseye is a bit fast for this application, and has a very tight sweet spot. That is, the charge weight must be just right or groups open widely. The 2400 load has a broader sweet spot, but burns a little dirty (incompletely). IMR PB was just right.

Since my first writing, I purchased another Mo 25. This one has a very nice bore, has been reblued and scoped. I got it relatively cheap because the collectors didn’t want it. It is an excellent shooter, and works fairly well with RL7 or 2015 at 1300fps, yielding 2” groups at 50 yds.

I didn’t find any loads above 1050 that would work in the frosted bore. The 1300fps base forward load keyholes.

So I decided to swap that barrel with a shortened one (21 inch) that has a slightly better bore. I estimated a IMR PB load using Quickload and Chris Longs Optimal Barrel Time theory. Testing found it to be right on, 2.8gr of PB giving 1030fps. This barrel will also handle 1300fps loads. But the 1030fps load is king.

I took it out for a hike this afternoon. It will hit anything I can see within 50 yds or so. A squirrel found out the hard way.

The squirrel was running through the trees at about 40 yds. It paused for a second and I pulled the trigger. It only went a few feet before falling dead, even though the shot had caught it in the hind quarters. This surprised me since my experience is that squirrels shot in the gut or hind quarters usually go quite a ways, even if disemboweled with a hot load.

[rickster]

Below are pictures of some recovered bullets shot into a trap consisting of 2 inches of wet paper backed by a stack of ¾ inch thick rubber squares (1 foot square) cut from a 6x4 foot mat bought at farm supply store. They are used for horse stalls and such. In between each mat is a pad of fiberglass R-12 insulation.

Descriptions follow.

1. 1125fps nose forward, Trail Boss load. Penetrated 7 mats. No significant expansion. Evenly engraved.
2. 1470fps, nose forward, RL7 with pillow stuffing. Penetrated 4 mats. No blowby evident. One side of bullet poorly engraved, especially near base.
3. 1590fps, nose forward, RL7 with pillow stuffing, penetrated 3 mats. No blowby evident. One side of bullet poorly engraved, especially near base.
4. 1365fps, nose forward, RL7 with pillow stuffing, penetrated 6 mats. No blowby evident. One side of bullet poorly engraved, especially near base.
5. 1590fps, nose forward, RL7 with corn cob polishing media filler, penetrated 3 mats. No blowby evident. One side of bullet poorly engraved, especially near base. Powder imprints in base.
6. 995fps, base forward, PB accuracy load, penetrated 2 mats. Evenly engraved. Slight expansion on base.

[35remington]

"One side of bullet poorly engraved....."

Does this mean it tumbled in the media and "rubbed off" the rifling marks on one side of the bullet near the base, or do you think it got an uneven start into the rifling?

I shoot Meisters and have recovered them with fully symmetrical engraving in all instances, so I'm curious.

The RL7/Meister/dacron load sounds like it has potential as long as it's going not over 1400-1500 fps. Something there should shoot, but I don't know how poorly throated your rifle is. Perhaps a poor throat gave it its uneven start?

[rickster]

That is a good question that I have been wrestling with.

Some more info.
· I attached some closeups of a #2 bullet to illustrate what I am seeing.
· It may not be as obvious in the pictures, but the noses of most of the higher velocity bullets are smooshed at an angle. These bullets were tipped as much as 30 degrees when recovered.
· This barrel slugs at .2575 to .258 near the chamber and .256 to .2565 at the muzzle.
· A slug only driven in about an inch past the chamber, and then back out, is lightly, but evenly engraved.
· If driven through all the way out the muzzle, it is fully and evenly engraved.
· The taper feels fairly uniform as I push the slug down the barrel.
· The replacement barrel is about 0.0005 tighter.
· The pictured bullet measures .256 to .2565 near the base.
· After examining several bullets, I would say that the engraving seems more uniform near the nose than near the base.
· The bullets were fired approximately 15 feet from the mat.


My guess is that a combination of factors is at play. I suspect that the bullets are yawing due to the barrel condition and close range (not yet settled) and the bullet is being deformed by the mat. I would be curious to know what they would look like at 50 or 100yds, and may check that, someday.

I also wonder if the pillow stuffing is wedging itself under one side of the bullet, preventing engraving. This theory has some merit in that I would expect an unengraved area to show some gas cutting, which these don’t.

Ultimately, I think wear of the rifling in the first few inches of the barrel is the cause.

Regarding higher velocity loads with pillow stuffing. I think it would work. But I’ll leave that up to someone else to prove. I have better guns and bullets for that purpose.

My original goals have been satisfied.

· Useful for short range “woods walking”
· Not loud
· Economical
· Hard hitting
· Accurate
· Will not carry far, and will be going very slow when it gets there due to very low ballistic coefficient.

Bottom line: These bullets have gone from bullets of last resort (in my earlier thinking) to bullets of choice for my original objectives. I ordered 2000 more and that probably won’t be the last order.

[35remington]

"I also wonder if the pillow stuffing is wedging itself under one side of the bullet, preventing engraving."

I very, very, very highly doubt it. Won't wedge itself between bullet and rifling such that the rifling can't grip. It doesn't work that way, and the layer of dacron that could work itself between bullet and rifling even if your throat is misaligned wouldn't be in a layer deep enough to prevent rifling from doing its thing. Besides, gascutting should still be lessened on that side even if the dacron intruded, which isn't likely.

What that looks like is severe gascutting or tipping in the medium, allowing it to work on the sides of the bullet.

The engraving near the base is less prominent due to this gascutting or tipping. The measured diameter near the base is likely smaller also.

If you want to know for sure, recover bullets fired into wet phone books. These allow bullet recovery with much less abrasion, and any analysis will be much truer to the condition of the bullet as it left the muzzle.

Rubber matting isn't nearly as good for this, and conclusions derived from it may be misleading.

[rickster]

Just a quick adder to the previous post. Another reason for the uneven engraving could be that I wasn't expanding the case mouth to accept the flat bullet bases. I could have been skinning some lead off the sides of the bullets. I did ruin a couple of cases during the testing when bullets canted during seating. I had checked for skinning early on, and had not found it to be occurring. Either way, that is not a problem with the bullets seated backwards.

[35remington]

Now that's somewhat possible, but most lead peeling is from the square cornered base and shouldn't extend far up the sides.

If you really want to know what's going on, time to trot out the wet phone books and try again with bullets seated properly. You'll see what's truly going one.

[rickster]

I'm good.

[35remington]

"5. 1590fps, nose forward, RL7 with corn cob polishing media filler, penetrated 3 mats. No blowby evident. One side of bullet poorly engraved, especially near base. Powder imprints in base."

Just reread your post and noticed the statement about powder imprints on the base. If you've got corn cob polishing media as filler, it ain't powder imprinting the base of the bullet, it's the corn cob, as the powder granules can't get past it.

Given your rather smeared looking bullets, and your confusion about their appearance (gascutting or tipping in the media) I'd really advise the phone books as you have a very incomplete impression of what's going on. You may be "good" but you've got some unanswered questions that could be answered.

Just sayin'.

[35remington]

Here's a picture of more conclusive evidence of gascutting tendencies. Notice the difference in gascutting is clearly visible. Notice how the bullets are in much better condition than the ones shot in your rubber bullet trap.

The two outside bullets (RCBS 85 FN from the 25-20) were shot over 5.5 of 2400 with dacron over the powder. The middle bullet was shot over 3.0 W231 with no filler.

Notice the clear difference in gascutting with the dacron/2400 loads on the ends compared to the middle bullet. I'm not left with any questions after recovering them, as differences are clearly visible, unlike your testing.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC01849A.jpg

[jwhite]

Rickster,
I am glad you tried the backwards loading trick, it certainly makes a difference upon impact with small game. I have shot a lot of bunnies and squirrels with the backwards loads, I like fact they don't rely on high velocity for killing power and are very easy on the ears.
Jerry

[rickster]

Glad you saw the post Jerry. Was going to send you a personal thank you by PM. That load really is sweet. Thanks for putting it up.

35rem - I met my objectives. Jerry's load does everything I want. Not confused or interested in going off on a tangent. Posted the pictures of the higher velocity bullets because I had them, and thought they might be of interest to anyone that might want to go that direction. If you interpret them differently than I do, no problem. Not interested in using filler myself. Was just something I tried that didn't meet my needs. Process of elimination. Oh, and I was referring to the corncob media as powder, not rifle powder. Sheesh, a guy would have to be pretty dumb to think that the rifle powder somehow got around the corn cob media and imprinted the bullet base.

[35remington]

Ah, low interest. I understand.

[chasw]

Regarding powders, I tried Clays, Red Dot, Grn Dot, Unique, Herco, Bullseye, 2400 Lil Gun, 4198, RL7, 2015, Trail Boss, 4227, SR4756, SR4759 and probably some others I have forgotten.

This is an interesting thread. I shoot the .256 Winchester round in a Contender Carbine, a sort of modern .25-20. Twist rate in my 21" Bullberry barrel is 1in10. After much experimentation, I finally settled on an RCBS FP-GC design from Montana Bullet Works cast from HTWWs that weighs 106 grains with the gas check and some soft blue lube. Once I expend my remaining supplies of this excellent commercial boolit, I'll pop for an NEI mold of similar design.

The ultimate powder I found for accuracy is Benchmark, which fills the case with about 15 grains or a little more with this relatively heavy bullet seated deep. Benchmark does best with minimal compression. Primers are Remington 7-1/2s. The bullets are seated out to where they just barely touch the lands (the Contender won't fire if there is too much contact). Velocity is about 1700 fps. When time permits, I'll post a pic of the rifle, bullet and typical group. I expect Benchmark would work well with the .25-20 too. - CW

[drpparker95]

I'm looking at the RCBS 85 grain mold and the little Lyman 60-65 grain mold. I want to use modern smokeless powders for a general purpose gun for everything from small game and vermin up to deer at close range. Here's my issue, I was told the molds are designed for BP and do not have any crimping groove. If that is the case how would I get the bullets to crimp safely. If it matters I'm shooting an older 20 barrel 1892 made in the early 1900s around 1906-1907.

[fred2892]

drparker, dont restrict yourself to the rcbs or lyman. Heres a 63 grainer with crimp grove.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=26_180&products_id=1871&osCsid=iuahnfe7u0e2cd4r4shoa7bn30

And heres an 80 grain with crimp groove
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=26_172&products_id=105&osCsid=iuahnfe7u0e2cd4r4shoa7bn30

Though if it were me I would not crimp and just ensure correct neck tension as the mild recoil from this cartridge isnt enough to telescope bullets into cases when used in a tube magazine.

Also, it would be better if you started a new thread, I just realised that this is tacked onto a 6 year old thread!
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[35remington]

Both the Lyman and RCBS bullets can be crimped, the RCBS in a crimp groove and the Lyman in a lube groove.

[drpparker95]

I just joined and I'm not terribly sure how to start a new thread. I'm currently casting for muzzleloaders and I use pure lead, I remember one of 35 Remingtons posts said something about either hardcasting or quenching the bullets. Here's my issue, does hardcasting mean using something like the Lyman number 2 or hardcast bullet alloy. Can I keep using my brinell hardness 9 lead and just quench it in a cold water bath? Sorry for tacking this onto an old thread

[fred2892]

If your current alloy gives you a brinnel of 9 and you are casting and air cooling your bullets then yes, water quenching will increase the hardness.
As for starting a new thread, I'm using tapatalk app to view this and I have a little pencil icon in the corner of the screen to start a new thread. Similar to what you'd use to write a new email. Can't remember how to start a new thread when using the web view on a computer, sorry.


Edit; wait, you said you're using pure lead? You shouldnt be getting a brinnel of 9 with pure lead, it should be close to 6.
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[35remington]

The hardness was only needed with the RCBS bullet when the lube grooves are not filled.