I guess I made a Star die

[Buckshot]

...........What a PITA compared to a Lyman or RCBS!

http://www.fototime.com/018A53186B1B1DB/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/0BC9ECC796F51F9/standard.jpg

About on par with making a Saeco I guess. It's only saving grace is that it doesn't require threads like a Saeco.

..............Buckshot

[Swagerman]

Looks dang good ta me, philgrim...you always do top drawer work. Where's,the lube holes.

Can you make one in .454?

Jim

[LIMPINGJ]

You did. Got to check it out today and works just great. Any hope of you doing some more?
Jim

[montana_charlie]

Huh? I saw the title of the thread and looked in to find out which star you had killed...

[Buckshot]

..............Jim, glad to hear it. I was wondering if you'd got it. Those pictures are of your die, obviously before the holes were drilled and the passage honed.

................Swagerman, "Looks dang good ta me, philgrim...you always do top drawer work. Where's,the lube holes. Can you make one in .454?"

HA! I don't know if I wanna make any more of these things. Actually I made up some tools dedicated to these dies but I have some questions.

1) Behind the flange is a groove. I can't see that it serves any usefull purpose. I put one on the one I made because the sample had one. Seems as if the flange at .875" could just step down to .750" it would be just fine.

2) I understand the die seals via rubber 'O' rings in the presses' casting. So the radiused shoulders on the .750" sealing surfaces are there to ease the dies' passage. I submit that a simple incline would serve as well, with the point of the created angle being simply broken. A tool with a straight angle is a heckuva lot easier to grind and maintain then a tool with such a radius ground into it.

3) From a comment made by Tom Myers, I'm under the assumption that the lube passage holes have some relation to the boolits' design or length? That the application of pressure to he lube is "Timed" to the boolits passage? That if the holes are mis-placed lube may escape the die?

Actually question 3 carries the most weight of my concern over making these dies. I do not care to waste my time trying to figure out where the holes should go in the die body, or having someone upset about where the lube holes are located.

If the above IS in fact the case, I'd have to pass on making them unless the customer was going to supply a template or measurements of where to drill the holes.

...............Buckshot

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Buckshot,

I can't answer any of you questions, but wanted to say I thought the work you've done so far looks darn good.

Dave

[AnthonyB]

Buckshot, my Stars don't use the O-ring so I can't comment on #2. I can help with #3 and will measure and report the hole spacing on my dies tonight. I think it is probably pretty uniform across my selection of dies. Where you put the holes wouldn't really matter much because the user plugs the un-needed holes with shot. I think a two diameter lube hole to accept the shot would be much more important than the location of the hole. Tony

[Cherokee]

Buckshot - the die looks good to me. Robert Stillwell has made all of mine for me. The holes are vertically spaced evenly within the lube track, 3 rows for pistol bullets and 4 rows for rifle bullets. I don't remember how many holes in a row, 3 I think. My star does not have an O-ring. On ?1, I don't see the need. The placement of the lube holes is to accomidate the groove placements in the bullet, the depth of the bullet in the die is controlled by the base punch. The lube holes have a step in them so they can be plugged with #12 shot if not needed.

Hope that helps. I could be interested if you want to make some more.

[seagiant]

Hi Buckshot!,
Really nice looking work,I made one out of a piece of shafting I had. Had to anneal it at first of course but came out pretty good. Will I make another one? NO! not that I didn't have any fun doing it but now that I have I can think of better things to do! HA! Take care!



United States Merchant Marines!
We carry the fight!

[slughammer]

1.) Groove only serves purpose for machining operation. Easier to have groove than it is to have no radius on tool nose (Can't remember if the press has a chamfer on the .75 bore or if its a sharp corner). Or it's easier to dial in .7500 if you don't have to work against the flange (I imagine the original dies were centerless ground on those OD's).

2.) No o-rings on my original Star. It seals by that .7500 diameter. Like you mention breaking the point is the important part (I'd fake a radius with a bastard file).

3.) Boolit is timed by adjusting the base punch, or nose punch; they are threaded for adjustment.

Aren't these fun? I made exactly one of these on my HF Chiawanese Multipurpse Machine. I made it out of a piece of 1" 4140, IIRC it took about 3 weeks to complete and I had 60 hours into it. Right now I have a piece of .75 drill rod and some 1/8" thick washers. I plan on turning a shoulder, cutting a couple of bevels and then welding the head on.

[Swagerman]

I have Star lube dies that the lube holes are sort of cone shaped, bigger on the outside and narrow down towards the inner diameter where the bullet is.

I guess its the die makers way of using an orifice effect to increase pressure to the bullets lube grooves...at least that's my guess.

Jim

[454PB]

Yes, the lube holes are actually stepped, not tapered. The outer hole is about three times as big as the inner hole. I suspect that it was done this way to allow the user to insert lead shot and plug whichever holes he chose not to use. One mine, I've been adjusting lube location by adjusting the base punch, but I can see that a drastically shorter boolit would require plugging some of the holes.

The older Star dies are so tightly machined that they don't require an O-ring. The newer Magma dies have the O-ring.

Nice work, Buckshot! I haven't yet made any dies for my Star, but when I do I'm going to experiment with the size of the lube passages. The weather has been so nice I'm riding my Gold Wing instead.

[Buckshot]

...............454PB, "The older Star dies are so tightly machined that they don't require an O-ring. The newer Magma dies have the O-ring."

You mean the press casting has the O rings or the dies themselves? Oh I can hold tight :-), but that means the press casting has to match the dimensions as tightly. I don't see the need for it myself so long as the punch can follow a couple thousandths 'float' the O rings prolly have.

LimpingJ sent a punch also. Naturally the threaded part is some cockamamie deal at 1/2-27 TPI. It wouldn't be so bad if my lathe cut 27 TPI but that one is missing :-( I'm not too hot on buying a gear to convert one available on my QC box to that. I took the cheap way out and bought a 1/2-27 die! Not I have to make a diestock to fit the tailstock.

Obviously I am NOT familiar with the Star lubsizer. Is there a tangible benefit to making the punches replaceable into that 1/2-27 threaded piece? I don't know if it's worthwhile or not. If the threaded body was left in the ram I mean. It could be D&T'ed say 1/4-28, and then the punch could have a similarly threaded tail with a lock nut so it could be set and locked at some particular length.

The reason I question the utility is that the existing one has to be screwed in and out, as would the modified punches have to be screwed in and out. The punches might be a bit cheaper. Am I missing a usefull modification here?

Re: Lube holes in the die. I can see the need for the tapered hole if they were to be plugged with lead shot. Has anyone tried closing off holes with adhesive backed aluminum tape like that used for "Beagleing? I'd think that it would be sturdy enough, covering such a small hole that the lube would not have a tendancy to puncture through? Seems like it would be easier to remove, IMHO anyway.

Can anyone see that I'm not interested in buying (or trying to find) such tapered drill bits, HA! I'm kind of interested in making these (especially seeing what Stillwell and Magma get for them), but I can't invest heavily in odd tooling whose special utility is limited to these dies specificly.

Do these dies come with the punch, or is that a seperate item?

.................Buckshot

[454PB]

Buckshot:
I have been considering making a threaded bushing to adapt the 1/2" by 27 tpi to something more readily available. Not only is the boolit punch proprietary threaded, but also the lock nuts. My Star was bought used, came with 4 sets of dies and matching punches, and one lock nut. Whatever thread is used has to be fine to maintain proper alignment. With the Star design, it's important that the punch be carefully adjusted to suit each length of boolit so that it is positioned correctly when the pump injects the lube. If an adapter is used, it's important that it's length be as short as possible or you'll lose some adjustment room.

The story I'm hearing is that Magma decided to use an O-ring seal on the newer machines to minimize the tight tolerances on the earlier Star built machines. I've also read that that tolerance doesn't exist.....the Magma built equipment does not leak if the O-ring is left off. The O-ring is only for the die.....no differences in the body that it fits into. I can tell you that my Star is very tightly fitted, changing dies requires a lot of force. I've stated here before that I quit maching the O-ring groove in my home made Lyman sizing dies, and they might leak a pea size gob of lube out the bottom in 500 boolits.

Back to those lube holes: I honed out one of the dies I received with my Star, which meant I had to thoroughy clean it first. I took measurements of the die while it was squeeky clean and inspected the lube holes. They are NOT tapered, but rather have been drilled with two different sized bits. I didn't measure the diameters, but I can if you want those, I have a full set of number and letter drill bits. My guess is that the smaller hole is about .030" and the larger is .090". I also measured and recorded their spacing along the die, and can give you those if you want. The tape over the hole idea might work, but be aware that the Star uses a high pressure lube pump on the down stroke that might push the tape into that very small lube hole and cause problems.

Another thing I learned is that the Star dies are way harder than the Lyman dies. I make my Lyman dies from mild carbon steel and plan to do the same with the Star dies. I have home made Lyman dies that have sized 10's of thousands of boolits with no dimensional changes, so I'm not worried about the hardness.

[Buckshot]

.............454PB, thanks for taking the time to reply. Helpfull info that clears some stuff up.

..................Buckshot

[Springfield]

I had my punches changed to a 2 piece system. It is so much easier to change to a different size when you don't have to remove the whole thing, especially if you have the bullet feeder. I have 3 Stars, 1 new one and 2 older originals. I leave the o-ring off all of them. It leaks a tiny bit, but makes it much easier to change dies.

[454PB]

I took some measurements (using drill bits) of the lube holes, and a macro picture to show their arrangement. The smaller (inside) hole is .0395" or # 60 drill. The larger (outside) hole is .088" or #43 drill.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1366&stc=1&d=1145929559

[Buckshot]

..................Now see! The hole placement on THAT one is way different then the one LimpingJ sent me. It even looks faintly different. So who decided where the ()*&%#&*( holes are supposed to go[smilie=b:

..............Springfield, "I had my punches changed to a 2 piece system. It is so much easier to change to a different size when you don't have to remove the whole thing, especially if you have the bullet feeder. "

Ah, so. There IS a benefit to a 2 piece setup eh?

................Buckshot

[454PB]

The theory is that the holes can be drilled to suit the boolit, so they could be just about anywhere within that depressed lube section. Magma says "send us your boolit for custom drilling".....yeah, right. What most people will do is plug the unneeded holes if there isn't sufficient adjustment. After seeing how small that #60 drill bit is, I'm concerned about drilling it that small without breaking the bit.

By the way, this particular die has half the holes plugged. On the original picture I took, you can actually see the smaller hole inside the larger one on the upper right hand hole.

[madcaster]

I had a machinist friend make some,but his probably were not near as good as yours.
Great job!
Jeff.

[454PB]

Well I've been working on my homemade Star sizer, and got to the point of drilling the lube holes. That job took 1/3 of the time I have invested. Those tiny little bits have to be used in a Dremel tool, no chuck goes that small. I broke four bits so far, and one is still stuck in the die. The other 7 holes are done, but I can't do the final honing until I get that last broken bit removed.

Anybody ever sharpen a bit that is only .039" in diameter?

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1388&stc=1&d=1146200211

[Buckshot]

..............You CAN buy a Jacobs chuck that closes down to almost zero and they take a 1JT taper. Plus Starrett makes a wire guage collet to be used in a drill press. They only real issue in using these tiny bits is in 'feel'. They want to be spun way fast, but fed very slowly.

Dremel makes a drill press stand for their tool and it is rigid enough to do the job. If it were me I'd just go to a bit smaller then their large opening size, but larger then the tiny wire guage bit. Then I'd try some of that heavy aluminum backed adhesive tape to cap the un-needed holes. I understand the lube is under some stout pressure, but is it really enought to cause the aluminum to shear?

................Buckshot

[454PB]

I think you're right, Buckshot. I'm going to drill bigger holes next time I do one. A hole that small seems overkill to me, any contamination in the lube would plug it. I wanted to duplicate the original's dimensions on this first one just to see if it could be done. This die will be .358, which pretty well fills out my need in sizes for a while.

My Dremel's lowest speed is 5000 RPM, and woked best at that speed. Using it by hand does give a good "feel" for the drilling. A .039" bit won't take much pressure downwards or side loading before breaking.

[454PB]

Here is what I ended up with, I'm going to drill the lube holes bigger, and I'm going to add some. I tested it sizing some Lee 165 grain boolits, and it isn't filling the lube grooves (there are three on this boolit) to my satisfaction.

The next one won't have the groove below the top section, I see no need for it. There are also some cosmetic things that aren't really needed, as you will notice I didn't bevel any of the square edges.


http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1406&stc=1&d=1146459008

[Buckshot]

...............Looks nice!

"..............The next one won't have the groove below the top section, I see no need for it. There are also some cosmetic things that aren't really needed, as you will notice I didn't bevel any of the square edges."

Well when a company goes out and buys tooling, I guess it doesn't make much difference to them, as they use it X number of times and send it off to a tool grinder for freshening. Or they toss it all together, then write it off their income tax :-). Us home guys don't have that option, so grinding and maintaining nicely radiused cutters for those pretty shoulders question their utility. And finding none, can delete them with glee!

Simple is good and simpler still is great!

...............Buckshot

[old sparky]

I have been following your post, great work. I don't have the machining but somthing I thought would be great for the star is a set screw drilled into the jam nut for the bullet punch. I would have several punches made close to my bullet diamater pre set with a setscrew on the jam nut. then when switching bullets adjusting bullet punch would be a breeze. Just a thought.
Sparky

[454PB]

I hear you. What I've been doing is measuring the distance between the bottom of the punch and the top of the die so it can be repeated without the experimenting to get it set right. My challenge is that I have several (as many as 8) different moulds for each caliber. Using the set screw on the jam nut would require a different nut for each design. Your idea would be great if you had one design or a jam nut and punch for each that you had. As you know, the punch and jam nut has a proprietary 1/2" by 27 tpi thread.

[Denver]

Buckshot,
I made one die for my Star using 1018 CR, I think. Made several for the Lyman using the same material and have no problem with wear.
On the Star sizer die, after turning the body and boring the hole, I made a scratch line around the circumference with the tool bit at the location of the holes, then clamped it in the drill press vice and drilled each hole with a whatever size to fit the hole in the factory die, then changed to a #42 to drill the step. I made only one row of holes at about the same lacation as the middle row on the factory die. I was trying for a .430 die, so used a 27/64 bit to bore the hole. I got a little too aggressive with honing the hole,and ended up with something slightly larger than that. The factory dies I have have a square undercut at the bottom of the flange, so I used my cutoff tool to make one. Don't think it's needed though.
I thought if I ever do another, I'd buy a reamer the size needed. Problem there is reamers are about 20 bucks a copy, so hard to justify the cost unless your going to make a few to sell.

[Buckshot]

..............Denver, 1018 will work. I don't particularly like it because it's so gummy and tough to get a nice finish on. If you can place an order over $50 you can use a free shipping code at ENCO. This is a wonderfull thing if you're ordering some raw materials like W or O-1 steel to use. You can buy nice steel like W-1 at Enco for less then the big box stores charge for a 3' piece of HR or CR 1018. It is SO much nicer to work with! Plus you can harden it if you need to.

If you're patient you can get some really really good deals on tooling on E-Bay. I have several favorite sellers who seem to always have a changing inventory of drill bits, reamers, and similar stuff. There are some guys selling reamers and they're just in a old greasy torn cardboard box in a pile, I don't consider those worth messing with. I have no way to sharpen abused reamers.

However I have accumilated a fairly extensive inventory of nice new reamers in the past couple of years. I had bought a set of import (China) reamers by 64ths and have sworn off import reamers, and drill bits as you cannot trust them. Other then that set, all the rest have been onesies, or a few at a time and name brand US, or European make. Most are US like Cleveland Twist, APT, L&I, Vermont, or Yankee. My one big hit was a new set of L&I letter reamers in a Huot box for $182. Look in a tool catalog and they're like $600.

I naturally look for reamers in usefull sizes. Lots of times you can get 3-4 of'em new in tubes for less then one from a catalog would cost. Search 'reamers' in manufacturing and metalworking, or industrial or you'll get a million orange juicers and such crap.

The other usefull thing for making dies is drill bits. As I said I will never again touch an import bit. You go in a hardware store and the normal bits stocked will be Irwin-Hanson, and they're good Amercan made bits, but not as good as others. I got a 10 pack of Guhring 1/4" bits on 3/8 shanks and TiN coated for some pittance. You can ALWAYS use a 1/4" bit, right? These things are nothing short of miraculous. I don't know what they cost regularly but I bet they cost a ton.

I drill all my die body blanks with a 1/4" hole and I've used the same Guhring bit for them all. I will bet that that bit has drilled through 100 ft of steel and it still looks and cuts like new. Try that with something from China or India, or even a Hanson! The other thing I look for in drill bits is for the parabolic fluted bits. You don't have to peck drill, and can go straight through a 2" die body without retracting to clear chips. With a set of number, letter and fractional bits you can get mighty close to some sizes. When you add in metric bits you get a bunch more usefull sizes.

Since drill bits make a bigger hole then they call for and they're never round, I try to get as close as possible with a reamer. If I don't have a reamer that's within .005" I'll use a drill bit but like to stay at least .005" away from the finish diameter with the hole they REALLY cut and not what's on the shank of'em. Instead I bore to within a thou of finish size with a boring bar, then hone them to final size.

..................Buckshot

[Denver]

Buckshot,

Your'e right about the 1018. It's just what I had on hand. I got it from our community college shop when I was taking a a metal maching course after I took an early out retirement from my company. I really enjoyed that and learned a lot. Lab time was too short and I wasn't able to do as much as I wanted, but I managed to build a barrel vise and wrench in the time I had. Really enjoyed the time I spent working with the verticle mill. I want one really bad, but the only ones I've come across are worn out industrial size that use 3 phase current. Besides, I'd need a crane to unload and set one up. Thought about the mill/drill thing also, but not sure if I want to go that way. I've bought some things from Enco, but they no longer list the decimal size reamers. I've also bought some items from Production Tool Supply. They're a little pricier, but have more items and better quality stuff. Used to be a guy locally that would buy machinest tools from estate auctions etc. and resell them in his store. I picked up a number of things that way. Went by his place one day and the IRS had a sign on the door saying something to the effect that the place was no longer in buisness. Guess that back pocket cash register he used wasn't recording all the transactions or something.
I've done the Ebay thing a time or two also, but haven't had much luck winning there.

[btr-cj]

Buckshot,

Would you happen to have the free shipping code for ENCO? I do not see it listed on any of the recent flyers they have sent and thought they stopped free shipping. I need to place an order and could use the shipping costs for additional stuff.

I have put off ordering their spin index long enough. I need one.

Thanks,

C.J.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

Would you happen to have the free shipping code for ENCO? I do not see it listed on any of the recent flyers they have sent and thought they stopped free shipping. I need to place an order and could use the shipping costs for additional stuff.

I have put off ordering their spin index long enough. I need one.

Thanks,

C.J.

The free shipping code for May is: WEBRN56

That's for orders over $50

Denver, You probably knew it but Enco is owned by MSC and MSC carries more stuff. Almost like McMaster-Carr. Another place is Rutland Tool. One thing that will take the place of a host of reamers is a good carbide shanked, insert type boring bar. MSC had some on sale a couple months back so I got a 1/4x4" one with 10 inserts for $92. That's about what 6 import reamers would cost. But the inserts are 3 sided so I have 30 cutting edges and I'm still on the first one. Plus they're replaceable and you don't need a $4000 tool grinder like you do with a reamer :-)

Of course as they get bigger they get more expensive, but as the hole gets bigger you can use a steel bar (make your own) like this one.

http://www.fototime.com/44F25A73466923B/standard.jpg

I use drill blanks for cutters (more E-bay).

.................Buckshot

[RayinNH]

Buckshot, MSC does have much more in their catalog than does ENCO. However if you look at their prices ENCO is the same or less than MSC for the same item. Their sale flier prices may vary though...Ray