Guns of the Civil war

[Pistolero]

Hi All,:redneck:

just got finished watching the above 3 part DVD series lent to me by a friend.

Not a bad show, but it seems to me that something very important was left out - ammunition!!!:?:

There was next to no information on types of musket balls used (the minie got a mention once) and the average type carried by solidiers, how many per man etc....

Nothing on the revolver balls either - did soldiers carry spare cylinders, what did they use for lube etc???

There was one scene showing an actor loading and firing a rifled musket, and it seems to me the procedure was as follows;

Take out paper cartridge;
bite the end off;
pour powder down the barrel;
put leftovers of paper cartridge down the spout followed by the boolit;
cap and shoot.

If the minie ball didn't need a patch - then why put paper between it and the powder???

Were the boolits pre lubed for soldiers back then or did they have to do it before a battle, or each time befor firing???

Sorry for all the questions - but it is attention to detail that matters I think!!:cbpour:

[sturf]

the mini ball was still in the paper wrapper when it was loaded. don't have to load it this way. bare bullet is fine. bullets were pre lubed.

[oldhickory]

To one of your questions, the the standard Infantry cartridge box held 40rds. Issue was often 60, 40 in the box, and 20 in the pockets, haversack, etc.

Harry Phanz's books, "Gettysburg, The Second Day" and "Gettysburg, Culp's Hill And Cemetary Ridge" go into detail of standard/non standard issue, loading, and cleaning of both small arms and artillery in the midst of battle as recorded by the men who fought there. Cutting up shirts for cleaning patches, scouring the dead and wounded for ammunition and water, resupply problems, falling back only after ammunition was spent, retreating by prolong, and even "jumping" artillery over low stone walls in an effort to avoid capture.

For the effects of ammunition on the human body, Greg Coco's book, "Gettysburg, A Strange And Blighted Land" should do it, (though a strong stomach is recomended).

[mooman76]

I heard somewhere they used women to help roll their loads for the troops on the front, so to speak.

[canyon-ghost]

You should see the history and pictures in a Lyman #3 Cast Bullet Handbook! You'd love it.

[1874Sharps]

I remember when I was fresh in the navy and in the classroom for an academic class on US Naval history. They told us the Civil War was the first modern war. The weapons development that took place during this time was unlike any before. It gave us repeaters like the Henry and Spencer, as well as a non-cartridge Gatling gun.

[madcaster]

You should see the history and pictures in a Lyman #3 Cast Bullet Handbook! You'd love it.

That multi-cavity,multi-gang mould bullet making forge in the book is really something!I have never seen one of those anywhere else in refrence materials or museums...sort of the Magna Master Casting forge of their day!:coffeecom

[TAWILDCATT]

I have a book on arms it is eye opening and shows two rows of women making cartridges.the paper kind.as far as the eye can see with a loooong bench between them.the gatling used steel containers that were reloaded with ball ,powder and cap on the scene.
"CIVIL WAR GUNS"by William B Edwards hard cover 443pages.a must read.
as it tells how many guns the north bought and where and how much.

[oldhickory]

I heard somewhere they used women to help roll their loads for the troops on the front, so to speak.

I've never heard of that, women did work in the arsenals making paper cartridges though. Even the Southern Sharpshooters armed with Withworths carried premeasured powder charges in glass viles in a cartridge box, pop the cork and dump, the boolit was loaded seperately.

There were "camp followers" sometimes wives who did camp chores such as laundry and cooking. Then there were the OTHER kind...

[northmn]

The civil war was considered the bloodiest war in American history which was blamed on the use of rifles against Napoleaonic tactics. Towards the end they started using more trench warfare as in WWI. Pickets charge was an example of that thinking. Most experts claims that those carrying revolvers and relying on them used several revolvers and DID NOT carry extra cylinders. Replacing a cylinder would have been rather tricky on hoseback. They did have nitrated paper reloads so that a full charge could be rammed into a revolver. Hood's cavalry carried sawed off double shotguns. Breech loading firearms started to develop including the Sharps, using a paper cartridge which was sheared off by the falling block. Also there were some rather weird cartridges for carbines developed. They also had a cap gun like tape of primers. The Whitworth shot a mechanically fitted 45 cal bullet of about 480 grains, the rifled muskets a minnie. Powder charges were rather modest at 60-70 grains. At the end there was the 44 rim fire Henry 15 shot (that Damned Yankee rifle you loaded on Sunday and shot all week) and the Spencer. The rim fires went out becasue big bore charges in the rim caused case problems. Rifled musket loads were quite undersized to permit loading after fouling and I also think to allow for variations in bore diameter. There was also the musket cap which was quite a big larger than the standard cap used by civilians. Probably less to fumble with as well as having more zip. The confederates also had a few civilian arms mixed in, some flintlocks.

Northmn

[TAWILDCATT]

most all the rifled guns used minie "balls"and they were under sized for a reason.
Lincoln finall got rid of Rielly[?]head of ordnance he was incompetant.and would not get repeaters.you would be amassed at the number of different guns the north had made.and the number of different cartridges they took.:coffee:
the south had only the machinery from harper ferry for manufacturing and they never did get chance to use them for being driven from their factories.
they used mostly enfields from britain as did the north and the south captured a lot at harpers and from defeated yankees. the final blow was the distructon of the southen armys supplies at Camden SC by the 54 Mass who were based in Georgtown SC.:coffee:

[Pistolero]

Thanks for the info, guys.

One thing in the series 'Guns of the Civil War' that amazed me was the sheer number of different rifles/muskets/breachloaders/revolvers that saw issue and use.

Must have been a logistical nightmare. A friend asked me recently as to why the .44 Henry was not mass produced by the Union over all other arms due to it's superiority over the muzzelloader??? It seems logical but i'm sure in 1862 that was easier said than done. :cbpour:

[mooman76]

Thanks for the info, guys.

One thing in the series 'Guns of the Civil War' that amazed me was the sheer number of different rifles/muskets/breachloaders/revolvers that saw issue and use.

Must have been a logistical nightmare. A friend asked me recently as to why the .44 Henry was not mass produced by the Union over all other arms due to it's superiority over the muzzelloader??? It seems logical but i'm sure in 1862 that was easier said than done. :cbpour:

That has repeatedly happened in history as well as many other things military wise. They go for the cheaper deal rather than spend the money for something better. Time was also an issue. It takes time to produce new guns especially something with many parts vs. something with few parts that is already available or can be converted easier than starting with something new. They even chose smooth bore over rifled muskets because of the speed of loading. They also concidered the fact that something that could shoot so much faster would go through costly ammunition more.

[ResearchPress]

If the minie ball didn't need a patch - then why put paper between it and the powder???
The British Pritchett bullet was smooth sided and loaded with paper patch around it (not as a wad) on top of the powder. See the following article on my web site about Enfield Paper Cartridges (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/cartridge09.htm).


Even the Southern Sharpshooters armed with Withworths carried premeasured powder charges in glass viles in a cartridge box, pop the cork and dump, the boolit was loaded seperately.
Are you sure about that? It seems a bit cumbersome for the battle field. Such techniques were used during target shooting matches but I don't recall reading reference to that by troops/sharpshooters. If you have more information I'd be keen to know.


The Whitworth shot a mechanically fitted 45 cal bullet of about 480 grains, ......
Whitworth's experiments were undertaken with the service charge of 70 grains and a 530 grain bullet as the basic requirements. Did the US make lighter hexagonal bullets then during the Civil War or are the lighter bullets cylindrical?

David

[cajun shooter]

I have been to the battle field of Gettysburg three times and hope to go some more before my time is up. They have people who have devoted their entire life to the study of this one battle. To observe the vast open fields of Pickett's charge will give you goose bumps. They have recovered rifles that have been loaded over 8 times but never fired in the heat of battle. The history of all wars will show you that this was not the last war that used outdated weapons and tactics. Just roll forward to 1915 and you find the same mistakes and so it continues. The new general over Afghanistan just asked for more troops and said that we will win over the people and then win the war. Perhaps he should revisit what was asked for in 1965-1973.

[GabbyM]

Backing up to women rolling the paper cartridges. I'm sure many women did work in the armories. Mostly though back then work such as that was done by children. Boys of eight years and up to teenage. The US Army manual for manufacture of paper cartridge was printed in NRA's AR magazine a few years back. Quite detailed it listed how many rounds a boy could produce per hour.

Child labor and many abusive practices were standard business procedure up to the Unionized labor movement here in the USA.

When I was a young fellow starting out my working life the elders who lived through and could remember being put to work in a coal mine at the age of ten had an entirely different outlook on the Union we belonged to. Stark contrast to the narcissistic communist rats we have running the Unions now.

When you stop to think of all the propaganda Lincoln put out about freeing the slaves. All the while the North had children working Pennsylvania coal mines with a life expectancy of a few months. A practice which continued for half century after the end of the civil war.

Anyway that's how those paper cartridges got rolled. Photos of women doing the work were IMO propaganda. Sort of like the prints of bare breasted women picking tea leaves adorning the packages of British tea from the plantations.

[9.3X62AL]

Good points, Gabby. I got banned from a Civil War board for making the assertion that Northern industry used slaves-in-fact prior to--during--and after the War, while the Confederacy was at least honest about holding blacks in bondage until Appamattox. The term "wage-slaves vs. chattel slaves" was the apparent final straw.

Truth only works in small dosage units when hurled against vested interests or pre-conceived notions--a lesson I still refuse to acknowledge.

[JIMinPHX]

At the end there was the 44 rim fire Henry 15 shot (that Damned Yankee rifle you loaded on Sunday and shot all week)
Northmn

I always thought that the Henry was a 44-40 center fire. Do you have some reference to a rim fire Henry?

Also, I've been told that "buck & ball" was a favorite load for the old Brown Bess back then. Apparently that was a musket ball loaded along with several pellets of buckshot.

[SmuvBoGa]

Both North & South governments were more concerned that "breech loaders" allowed the "troops" to shoot TOO much, too often in the heat of battle. Uncle Abraham was an advocate of many of the new fangled weapons but this did NOT cause the U.S. War. Dept to do more than set up weapons tests & slow every thing down.
Many Union STATE troops provided their own weapons (often the gentleman providing the weapons was elected Commanding Officer - State Troops did elect their officers) - remember that each State had a quota for the number of troops to provide - Wilder's Brigade (Union Mounted Inf) provided their own repeaters; as did the 1st unit of Berdans Sharpshooters (U.S.) - the other S.S. units were promised to be issued Sharps but didn't happen till approx the 2nd or 3 issue of weapons - some of the B.S.S. only had Springfields. The B.S. were re-issued blue uniforms BUT kept thier Green kepis.
The Union & Confederate Arms was made up of State Troops, State issued weapons, uniforms, etc. Sometimes the CSA Gov did provide weapons, uniforms BUT not to all. The USA Gov was better to provide re-issues to state troops that had been "nationalized".
This was a war between the States - both CSA & USA didn't take over gathering troops until the draft started.

[cajun shooter]

Jim, Read the chapter on that in Mike Venturino's book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. The Henry was chambered for the 44 Henry rim fire cartridge.

[38-55]

Hey Ya'll,
I've worked with one of Dr. R.G. Gatling's revolving battery guns.... The cartridges were load into 'chambers'. An iron cylinder with a musket cap and nipple on one end and open to .58 on the other. The 'chambers' were preloaded with 150 gns ( yup that's right 150 gns ) of musket powder and packed in tins. When the battery gun was in position the chambers were fed into a hopper on top of the receiver. As the handle was cranked the chambers went through the mechanical cycle and were then collected by the crew to be reloaded.. Rates of fire up to 650 rpm have been documented..
TWIMC.. the battery gun I helped with was an original and it was used in the draft riots in new york and by ben ( the beast ) butler at Bermuda's Hundred in Virginia...
Stay safe
Calvin
PS any of you heathens make it to gettysburg look me up and I'll show ya about and buy ya an adult beverage or not, to your choosing.. ( it's just up across the way from me )
PPSS the henry was rim fire in it's original form
PPSS again... buck and ball was one .58 or 69. ball and three .36 balls generally issue.. trooper did field mods as troopers do... there is a monument to the right of pickets charge to a unit that used b&b to great effect that day....

[Gaucho Gringo]

.44 Henry rimfire or 44 Henry flat is in no way related to the 44-40 or 44 WCF cartridge other than the bullet is .44. The 44 Henry rimfire was the cartridge of the the first SUCESSFUL REPEATING RIFLE TO BE MANUFACTURED IN LARGE NUMBERS, THE HENRY REPEATING RIFLE. The 1866 Winchester was also made in .44 Henry rimfire. The 1873 Winchester saw the introduction of the 44-40 centerfire cartridge in the Winchester repeating rifle. Although the rifle was offered in some rimfire cartridges most were centerfire.

[oldfart1956]

How often we forget the devastation of the guns during The War of Northern Aggression. There is a battlefield not far from my home where a lot of good southern boys fell at the rate of one every 30 seconds, dead or mortally wounded. That's 120 men each hour. And the battle lasted for 11 hours. It was in Sept. if I recall correctly..a place called Antietam. Yeah...some Yankes got kilt to. Not nearly enough judging from the mess we're in now. Audie..the Oldfart..

[Wayne Smith]

1) The 44-40 cartridge debuted with the 1873 Winchester. The Henry was a rimfire.

2) Berdan's sharpshooters originally were recruited from target shooters and they initially used their heavy barreled, false muzzle target muzzle loading rifles. They were issued the revolving rifle! (Colt or Remington, I don't remember) and initially resisted the Sharps until it was proven as accurate as their target rifles.

[John Taylor]

Not much about this little pistol. Marked "Manufacture by Moore for Smith & Wesson". Made from around 1861 to 1865. A 7 shot 32 RF that many officers purchased themselves, lighter and faster to reload. S&W had the patent for the bored through cylinder so that's how their name got on it. Push the little button next to the hammer and the barrel and cylinder swing out for reloading.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/Moore1.jpg

[John Taylor]

.44 Henry rimfire or 44 Henry flat is in no way related to the 44-40 or 44 WCF cartridge other than the bullet is .44. The 44 Henry rimfire was the cartridge of the the first SUCESSFUL REPEATING RIFLE TO BE MANUFACTURED IN LARGE NUMBERS, THE HENRY REPEATING RIFLE. The 1866 Winchester was also made in .44 Henry rimfire. The 1873 Winchester saw the introduction of the 44-40 centerfire cartridge in the Winchester repeating rifle. Although the rifle was offered in some rimfire cartridges most were centerfire.

The Volcanic was a lever action repeater made by S&W that didn't catch on. Winchester was the money behind it and ended up owning the company. Henry worked for Winchester, took the design and made it bigger and designed it to take a cartridge ( the Volcanic had a sort of rocket bullet with the powder and cap in the base of the bullet). Winchester took the same design and made the 1866, 1873 and 1876. The Volcanic held more rounds but it only had about 28 foot pounds of energy. They also made a pistol.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/volcanicrifleandpistol.jpg

[shooter575]

I always thought that the Henry was a 44-40 center fire. Do you have some reference to a rim fire Henry?

Also, I've been told that "buck & ball" was a favorite load for the old Brown Bess back then. Apparently that was a musket ball loaded along with several pellets of buckshot.

The Henry cartridge was the .44 Henry flat...Rimfire. There were no center fire cartridges during the C/W. Matter of fact the first conversion of leftover Springfields post war were a .58 rinfire.
The 50-70 was the first US milatary center fire cartridge.
Ball and buck and ball were the two standard loads for smoothbores.Ball being one rb. B&B being one .660 and three .300 buckshot. All US made smoothbores were .69 cal. [Other than a few hundred cadet models]
The smoothbores early war were used by the majority of troops on both sides. They were phased out mostly in the eastern theater by mid war.
The western theater some union and a lot of southern were still using then to the end.
As said above on making ammo. Cartridges were made in armorys packed into 10 round paper packages with 12 caps.Then loaded into wooden boxes of 60 lb or so and shiped to the front.BTW most of the Minnes in both armies were not cast.They were swaged. Look in the base cavity and many were marked by the die.The ones I have seen had a X in the base.
Troops did not made their own ammo during the war. 99.99% just drew their load from supply just like the troops do now.