Tactical Schmactical

[jim4065]

Guess I'm getting too old and grumpy - but it just chaps my a$$ to see the word "Tactical" associated with guns (and everything else) anymore. The new issue of "Guns and Ammo" has "Tactical Tack Driver" on the front cover - while showing a bolt action rifle with a plastic stock. I'm sick of plastic, too. Why didn't they put a maple-stocked muzzle-loader on the front cover? There's a (semi) decent article by Venola on page 48, but they don't mention it on the cover. How about a picture of a Brown Bess and call it "Tactical Muskets of Our NATO Ally"? (Or some such drivel.) :mad:

Rant over.

[Boz330]

OOOOHHHH, looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.:kidding:
Seems like that is all that you see anymore but they write to what sells. I went through my spray and pray days sometime back. Don't have any black rifles left, replaced them with classic single shots. I do still have a Carbine though.

Bob

[docone31]

I do not even have a Carbine.

[madcaster]

You are correct Sir,there has been a total lack of craftsmanship on the covers of a lot of gun magazines.I love to look at the curl in a maple stocked Kentucky Rifle,and the CRAFTSMANSHIP-you cannot do THAT on a hot injection machine!Engraving and carving-both incised and raised,CRAFTSMANSHIP!:coffee:
Yeup,I didn't get up on the wrong side of the bed-at least not the first time!:twisted:

[Russel Nash]

I have to defer back to Bill O'Reilly's mantra from a few years back: The purpose of any media is to sell you something.

So that could mean the phone, the internet, TV, newspapers, gun periodicals, etc.

Doesn't matter...they are trying to sell you something.

And since the creation of railed handguards for AR's, there is tons more crap people can make and sell to you, to hang off your AR. I mean after all...going to the range should be a tactical fashion show. It's almost like the Smith's keeping up with the Jones's thing.

It's become quite the self-licking ice cream cone of a relationship between "gunzines" ( and their BS writers) and the gun/flashlight/laser/wanna-a-be-commando industry.

I had a buddy who was a local cop, but worked with the DEA on some task force kicking in doors. He loaned me his AR for the longest time. It came with a Surefire flashlight on the handguard. I kid you NOT...it was a $600 flashlight.

:shock:

When or if the poop ever its the proverbial fan.... I'm just gonna duct tape a mag light to the front of a long gun.

Not very tactical.... but I bet it will work.

[Russel Nash]

As far as craftsmanship goes...pardon my rant...

I guess I learned way back when that with people there are two types of (motivational??) problems. There are will problems and then there are skill problems.

Most people really don't have the will.... the motivation... to get the skills to really set themselves apart.

Also from a business perspective, it behooves the AR manufacturers and a few other gun manufacturers to dumb down as much as possible the assembly/manufacture of their firearms.

It allows them to draw from a pool lesser skilled people...who just so happen to low ball money-wise what their labor is worth.

I was recently at a carpenter's apprenticeship school to take a 32 hour long rigging class. Off to the side of the classroom were a few old planes displayed inside a special case. I bet none of the apprentices in the class had any idea how to sharpen the plane irons or the chisels . And I bet, NOT one had a clue as to how to set the iron in a plane either.

Sad...very sad....

Pardon my rant, here too....

But really, the pool of discriminating clientele who would notice such fine differences and be able to admire them, I think, is diminishing too.

Less demand .... less supply

[Boz330]

I do not even have a Carbine.


Well I couldn't go completely cold turkey. Never can tell when I might need a fix.

Bob

[jhrosier]

IMO, tactical has its' place.
It attracts the younger crowd to the sport of shooting.
Later, when they see what the oldtimers can do with real guns, they might get converted.

As long as the young guys & gals practice good range safety, I don't mess with them.
I do make it a point to try to show them what a real gun can do, though.:evil:

Jack

[northmn]

The Colt single action was taken off the market for lack of sales until the B westerns started to get aired, then every one had to have one. The current rage for "tactical" arms seems to be tied to the movie TV crowd also. They cannot shoot anything without using a fully auto firearm locked on fully auto. Ammo makers must love them.

Northmn

[mooman76]

As bad as the spagetti westerns were they actually helped bring back allot of old guns.

[Geraldo]

The Colt single action was taken off the market for lack of sales until the B westerns started to get aired, then every one had to have one. The current rage for "tactical" arms seems to be tied to the movie TV crowd also. They cannot shoot anything without using a fully auto firearm locked on fully auto. Ammo makers must love them.

Northmn

I was thinking the same thing. What's the difference between a wannabe John Wayne and a wannabe Bruce Willis other than the type of firearm. There's some Walter Mitty in everyone.

I do get tired of getting my ears blown out by AR muzzlebrakes at the range, but I'm sure they get tired of losing sight of the target from my clouds of BP smoke. I used the real tactical stuff when I had to, but for fun I prefer to shoot something made of iron and wood, not plastic and carbon fibre.

[northmn]

Who was the rather famous gun writer that the NRA crucified for speaking out against this type of firearm recently? While I do not have anything against a guy that wants to "Walter Mitty" as Geraldo says (I do it with my ML's) and burn up a lot of ammo. I do think that terms like tactical tend to present an image of shooters that could be taken wrong. Once we took military rifles and sporterized them, now we take sporters and militarize them.

Northmn

[Bloodman14]

Loved the reference to Walter Mitty! I wonder how many people today know who he 'is'.
Just saw the commercial for the kid's(?) movie, "Where the Wild things Are"; I told my wife I wanted to see it. She said it was a kids movie, and that I needed to grow up. "Never!", I said.
Then read some reviews on the movie; seems the kids were bored, but the parents had a blast! Go figure.
Kids today have missed out on so much; good music, literature, art and outdoors.

[carpetman]

I'll bite---who is/was Walter Mitty?

[mtnman31]

I have come to loathe the terms "tactical" and "operator". Take something, paint it black, add 20% to the cost and call it tactical. Tactical is one of those terms that has become so over used/abused due to marketing and consumer ignorance. Just yesterday I sent a letter to the editor of the Marine Times asking what they were thinking. The Oct 19 edition has an article on Tactical Tomahawks. I almost choked reading through that junk. It tried to show how a $550 tomahawk could be used in a combat setting for tasks such as breaching and rescues. Sure it could work but why would someone want to use a tomahawk when they could use a purpose built piece of gear to do the same job more effectively and at the same time save themselves from all the ridicule of their peers because they showed up with a tomahawk. After years of deployments and military life, I have yet to see a guy carrying a tomahawk. I think a good majority of the time these tactical gurus are nothing more than armchair commandos and internet operators.

It is all similar to the idea that certain cartridges are obsolete and ineffective at taking a deer. i.e. "you need this .338 ultra magnum because the 30-30 is underpowered for deer." Give me a break; it is the indian and not the arrow. I recall growing up, my grandpa would go hunting with a rifle and the clothes on his back. Fancy to him was taking a pair of binoculars or using a rifle with a scope. I scoff at some of these hunting shows on cable TV. Guy does nothing but advertise for all his sponsored gear and equipment that is "essential" to putting that big buck down. Scent blocking, anti-UV clothes, newest super short mag cartridge fired from a $2000 dollar custom rifle topped with a $2500 scope, electronic game calls, laser range finder, tripod that you have to unpack and set up to shoot from, and of course a beautiful female guide to take them to the most productive spots on the game farm.

I try to do it like grandpa: me, my gun and lunch - in a brown paper bag. Oops, almost forgot my trusty tomahawk. :groner:
Rant over, excuse me while I go vommit.

[KCSO]

My tactical alarm rang early this morning and I slid out of my tactical bed and into the tactical shower...

I agree 100% you could sell toilet paper with the word tactical and some mall ninja would buy it.

As to Venola's article it would have been nice if they had someone who knew aboult muzzleloaders or could shoot one. His flinter group shrieks FLINCH!

[carpetman]

MtMan31---Why do you bother packing a tomahawk? That is just extra weight. You can make your own out in the field/woods. All you need is a forked limb, a stone and some sinew. Cutting the forked limb is very easy with a chainsaw. If you don't have one you can avoid having to completely rough it by using a Tactical Tomahawk. The stone is pretty easy, but some considerations should be given in the selection. You don't want to use one that was previously someones' pet rock that has gone astray. Numerous studies have been done and it's a unanimous consensus that former pet rocks don't make good tomahawks. Even in Hollywood movies, you just don't see an Indian using a tomahawk made from a pet rock. The sinew is the tough part. You are in a desperate situation---you need a tomahawk. If it weren't a life or death deal you might take an extreme gamble of getting a deer to get some sinew using a 30-30. But that is too risky. You need a .338 Ultra Magnum it gets em EVERYTIME even in the hands of less experienced operators that have lesser tactical skills. You can avoid all this hassle if you get a 4WD long bed diesel and a 4wd quad ATV---then you can haul the needed gear.

[madcaster]

[QUOTE=KCSO;696764]My tactical alarm rang early this morning and I slid out of my tactical bed and into the tactical shower...

Now there's one to quote,and got uinto my tactical vehicle and got my tacticle butt to work so my boss did not have to make a strategic decision on my job status![smilie=w:[smilie=s::bigsmyl2:

[Russel Nash]

If I understand it correctly....from a friend who had started his own hunting footage website where hunters uploaded videos of their hunts to his website....my friend also started his own business making special articulated arm camera mounts for the Primos hunting shows camera crews...

We had talked one time about having our own show, probably more dedicated to the USPSA crowd and way less tactical. He had heard that for a 1/2 hour show, it costs $35,000 to buy that half hour block of time. So my reply was, "So a hunting or shooting show has to get sponsors/advertisers to buy at least thirty five thousand dollars worth of commercials to be aired during the show...to just break even?"

A'yup.

So, which hunting/shooting related companies have the money to spend on those kind of expensive commercials?

The ones with the expensive toys....like the 4WD ATV's and the bigger gun companies...and the companies that make those "mules"....cha ching$$$

[mtnman31]

Carpetman, the stone tomahawk head is a great idea... in theory. I used to carry a rock for my tomahawk, though it was a rather large rock - more along the lines of a battle axe than tomahawk. Anyway, long story short, I had my rock with me on a deer hunt. Two bucks were locking horns and distracted me (common deer tactic) while a doe snuck up from behind and got the drop on me. She startled me and I ended up dropping said rock on my foot. Broke some toes - leather moccassins, while tactical because they allow me move so stealthily, don't provide much protection for the feet from misplaced tomahawks.

Thus began my dislike for products labeled as "tactical".

[stubshaft]

Carpetman, the stone tomahawk head is a great idea... in theory. I used to carry a rock for my tomahawk, though it was a rather large rock - more along the lines of a battle axe than tomahawk. Anyway, long story short, I had my rock with me on a deer hunt. Two bucks were locking horns and distracted me (common deer tactic) while a doe snuck up from behind and got the drop on me. She startled me and I ended up dropping said rock on my foot. Broke some toes - leather moccassins, while tactical because they allow me move so stealthily, don't provide much protection for the feet from misplaced tomahawks.

Thus began my dislike for products labeled as "tactical".

Great! Now all "tactical rocks" will have warnings engraved on them. :coffeecom

[northmn]

You forgete that to be tactical you have to have the right accessories. $400 flashlights, $550 worth of tomahawk, a proper survival knife in case you get lost in downtown metropolis, camoflague clothing, underwear and my favorite,the $400 flashlight needed to be camoflague also. There are also the extra magazine holders for your 18 shot 9mm and for your AR15. This I find amusing as my father bought me a milsurp 303 Brit when I was a kid. If that magazine was loaded with 10 rounds, which I do not do anymore when I hunt with that gun for nostalgia (yep still have it), I had plenty of ammo for a days outing. Of course if you get a lot of shooting, people can find the $40 magazines laying all over the woods like they drop them on TV. Mostly the people doing this are harmless and having a good time like I do with my muzzle loaders. Some folks really get into period correctness with them as in debates as to whether a short starter and ball blocks should not be sued with a Revolutionary war rifle. About the only difference is in public opinion.

Northmn

[Lead Fred]

Slap tactical on it and the mall ninjas will buy it.

Just another buzz word for the clueless

[zardoz]

As to the Walter Mitty reference, this was a James Thurber character.

I remember reading the short story when I was in school back in the 1960's.

They also made a movie about this story in the 1940's starring Danny Kaye.

Here is wiki ref.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=wiki+walter+mitty&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1

In short, Walter Mitty had wild fantasies about being the hero of the day (i.e. "mall ninja")

Some time ago, I posted a very funny story about someone "tactically" urinating on themselves during an overexcited encounter with a shoplifter or something. Will try to find it.

[zardoz]

My first post on this one. Had me laughing pretty hard.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=49686

[Jim]

..... There's some Walter Mitty in everyone......

Now I know how old you are! Thanks for the chuckle and the grin!

[bcp477]

"Tactical".................:roll:....:roll:.........."Mall Ninjas".............:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (rolling on floor)..................

[Kuato]

My favorite is the " tactical knife". Looks the same as my non tactical knives. has a blade, handle, sheath. same damn thing cept the price....lol. 80% more $$$ than my non tactical.. Does it cut better? No. Does it go off by its self looking for intruders to stab? NO. Does it do anything my non craptical knife wont do? HELL NO.

Moral of the story? Tactical = Marketing for sheeple... Baa baa.....

[Geraldo]

Now I know how old you are! Thanks for the chuckle and the grin!

Jim, I might be younger than you think, but well read. ;)

It's not that I have a problem with AR15s, but when I see guys at the range wearing ACU camo load bearing vests stuffed with extra mags to shoot on a square range it kills me. I like to think I have my inner Walter Mitty more under control as I don't look like Jeremiah Johnson in my shorts and t-shirt when shooting muzzleloaders.

As for overuse of the term "operator" I agree. As far as I know this term originated from SFOD-D, or Delta. Having met several of the real deal I'm not impressed with wannabes. I was never an operator, although my great-aunt Lucretia was one for a local phone company back in the day...

[FL-Flinter]

I'm going to agree with most here and take issue with couple.

First, anyone who has tried the $400+ flashlights knows that they don't "brownout" as the batteries die, they just quit working right now! No warning and no hesitation, just instantly no light ... of course, that from the $8+ each batteries which BTW, I can get in a less "tactical" looking package for around $3.85 each.

I have no gripes on auto's per se. I hold many gripes on many different designs because no matter how good the action functions, it doesn't do you a dang bit of good if the rest of the gun sucks - and then you have the AR style that was obviously created by an automotive engineer because it sucks from top to bottom and end to end. Well, since it's out now, I have no doubt that automotive engineers lay awake a night trying to figure how to build something in a manner stupider than has ever been done before. The new model years are not for the consumer, it is the annual "worst design ever" competition among automotive engineers - like the brainchild who put the oil filter on top of the diesel engine in the 2008 Ford pick-ups so that all the crud trapped by the oil filter is purged out of the filter by the back-flow of oil when the seal is broken so it can all run back down into the engine again. Which brings me to my point that most of the alleged "tactical" guns and accoutrements are designed by people who don't have what it takes to win an office in Detroit.

Like the "tactical" flashlight that dies without warning - I suppose the user should just holler out, "Hey! Would you quit shooting at me until I change my batteries?" Or one of my favorites being the "We built a combat gun on such tight tolerances, it totally defeats the purpose of it being gas operated so we'll fit it by just putting a forward assist plunger on it to jam the next round into the chamber just as one would try plunging and oversize turd down the toilet. The same people who complain about the little sight hood on a lever action being bad because it catches brush are often the same ones who carry a "tactical" with handle loops and open-mount high-rise sights, plenty of holes big enough to get hung on door knobs and then we'll put 15 more gadgets on the piccy rails ... yet that little itty bitty hood is a major point of complaint on the non-tactical lever gun? Most times this is cured by removing the sight hood and replacing it with a 3x9x50 scope.

Now I'm going to take a bit of issue with the anti-tomahawk crowd. I build "hawks" in addition to custom traditional muzzleloaders and I tend to take offense at the hawk bashing based on the modern "tactical" gadgets created to do nothing more than separate a fool from his money. A few years ago, one of my customers stopped by and couldn't wait to show off his new "tactical tomahawk" he was happy to brag about paying around $400 for so of course I suggested he try it out. First test was punching a hole in an old tire which it did quite well but he then fought with it for several minutes to get it un-stuck from the tire. Next was chopping a piece off an oak tree limb about 3" in diameter. After about two minutes of chopping, he made it about half-way through but had stopped and was rubbing his wrist so I couldn't help but ask how well he liked the full steel shank through the handle. He got mad at me and went back to chopping and finally completed the cut and a little while later he was poking at the two big blisters the tactical composite handle slabs had raised on his hand. Seems he wasn't quite so happy with his new purchase even though it looked so "tacticool".

Throughout history there have more hawk designs than one can shake the proverbial stick at and the major difference is that in the days of old, the designs were based upon the specific needs of the user - function, not "look", was foremost. Anyone who has studied the tactics and weapons of ancient battles knows that those who had the most diverse tactics and equipment were victorious even when greatly outnumbered. Many versions of the hawk have survived for thousands of years not only as a very useful tool but also as an extremely effective weapon on land and at sea. For those who doubt the value of the hawk in today's world, ask yourself this question: "How long will it take me to cut some firewood with my Leatherman saw as opposed to building a functional shelter with a hawk?" For those of you thinking along the battlefield applications, ask yourself these questions: "How much effort is required to carry an additional 5-6 pounds as opposed to 2-3 pounds?" "How much fatigue can I afford to endure from a full metal shank handle and fighting a chopping tool that wants to roll to the side on every impact especially after spending all day moving and fighting?"

A lot of these new tacticool gadgets are like Swiss Army knives & Leatherman tools, they got a whole lot of stuff on them and do a whole lot of things but don't really do any one thing well. A well made hawk on the other hand doesn't have a whole lot of stuff on it but that doesn't keep it from doing many different jobs quite well including skinning & butchering as well as fighting a battle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Accounterments/P1030148.jpg

[Geraldo]

FL-Flinter, nice looking hawks, I especially like the one on the right. Did you forge the heads?

[10 ga]

BP guns, bib overhauls and flannel shirts took most of this continents game to the edge extinction 100+- years ago. They didn't have automatics, camo or all the trinkets that so many seem to adorn themselfs with now. Red and black plaid and BP forever!!! OH yeah, I do have a couple of "black guns" and pistolas with a LOT of ammo in long term storage. Never know when there may be a breakdown in civil order! 10 ga

[northmn]

The tommakawk was probably as responsible for the demise of the Natives as was cloth. I don not think we can imagine how much easier it was to use a steel tool over stone. Its basic design is one of easy manufacture as compared to a belt axe and was a standard trade item. The hawk on the right in Flflinters picture is more like the belt axe and more practical for general use. As a survival tool, were I to design one, I would make a hollow handled belt axe that would hold a knife, along with other stuff in the handle. An axe is a better survival tool than a "survival knife" A tactical knife is basically an antipersonnel weapon with no advantages over another knife. Ideally I would jsut as soon have both a functional knife and axe for survival.

Northmn

[willyboy]

you needed the steel toe ''tactical'' moccassins!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I have been around Muzzleloading since I was a little feller running about the Turkey Shoots my dad shot his smoke poles at 50 years ago.
Presently one of my favorites is a Colonial (1750) Fowler now at Witte's place getting a nasty crack/break repaired. I routinely haul a .58 smothbore about the area causing distress to the crow & ground hog population.
BUT if the gang that walks our alleys and block some street intersections at night near here ever decide to "take the neighborhood" I will be grabbing whichever semi-auto is hanging on the wall clip near the back door. Call those Battle Rifles anything you want... They are the equalizer of today. Imagine what the minute men could have done with one Black Rifle & 6 30 round magazines per trooper. Do you really think the men at Concord Bridge would have traded in thier Muskets for a wheellock or matchlock ? All the craftsmanship in the world is not going to influence the next to be gunfight. I enjoy spending the time and effort to inlet a patchbox. I thrill in repairing a 100+ year old key wind watch and setting in motion the balance wheel for the first time in decades (my oldest is English from 1823).
Flintlock Woods Walking and Riot Control / Family Survival are two distint applications of tactics. Me... I think the semi/auto (ugly ducklins they are) is going to have far more influence in the first 10 aimed shots than one aimed blast from even my 75 caliber smoth rifle.

[FL-Flinter]

FL-Flinter, nice looking hawks, I especially like the one on the right. Did you forge the heads?

Thanks for the compliment :drinks: and yes, they're out of my forge. Haven't had time to do any for a while, been busy with bench work and fussing with my new underhammer actions.

[Lead Fred]

you needed the steel toe ''tactical'' moccassins!


my mocs are so tactical, I can even sneak up on Indians

http://www.arrowmoc.com/s.jpg

[peter nap]

I agree with several things said. I hate inlines and never built one (although I did saw off a 12 ga inline once for the fun of it) The rifles I build give up nothing to the plastic stocked wannabees.

I also forge hawks and knives and carry one while in the fields. I madw a special spike poll to start the fancy screw in tree steps I didn't make.

When I'm in the burbs, I carry a 1911.

I built a bunch of Ar15's at one time. It convinced me, I hate them. I carry a SOG power plier in my pack because I can't turn a screw with my hawk.

My hunting knife is a Nesmuck I made years ago...most efficient hunting knife I ever had. My camp knife is a Roach Belly I made back when.

Not everything new is bad....It's not a new thing either. I have a hammer, hatchet, prybar combo that was my Grandfathers. You can still buy them and they are still useless.

[FL-Flinter]

I carry a SOG power plier in my pack because I can't turn a screw with my hawk.

Not everything new is bad....It's not a new thing either. I have a hammer, hatchet, prybar combo that was my Grandfathers. You can still buy them and they are still useless.


You got a hawk, just drive the screw in like a nail! :bigsmyl2:
Don't blame you, it's really a good idea to carry a multi-tool because while it may not be good skinner or gutter, the pliers and drivers are quite handy to have. I carry one too.

You're not alone on the opinion of uselessness about the tri-tools. [smilie=s:

[FL-Flinter]

missionary5155,

Hope all is well with you and yours! Good to see you home! Are you heading south again or somewhere else? Drop me an email: mark@fire-iron.biz

I think my initial post and possibly others may have been taken in the wrong context. I don't discount the value and usefulness of modern cartridge weapons but some could be a lot better and other should have ended with a swift slap to the back of the designer's head. I by no means meant to imply that a muzzleloader would be a better choice than a modern cartridge rifle in battle but I also wish to make it perfectly clear that the alleged "tactical hawks" often are of far less functional value than a traditional hawk. I also wished to point out that a hawk is often of far more value than a knife not only in an environmental survival situation but also in a combat situation where the choice is only hawk or knife. My reference to the combined use of both the hawk and knife goes back to the times when ML's were state-of-the-art and prior to ML's. All one need do is consult ancient battles and it is clear that the opponents with the best archers were often victorious unless their tactics sucked. Those who relied solely upon the sword would often not be victorious when going against opponents with shorter weapons like hawks, knives and clubs for the simple fact that one cannot stop a sword in mid swing thus leaving them open to take multiple hits from the opponent utilizing two smaller weapons. When it comes to battle, one cannot put all the emphasis upon the weapon (talking apples to apples battlefield ground troops) as the resolve and tactics of the opposing parties will often be the determining factor as to the outcome. That is not to say a group of soldiers armed with flintlocks should be intentionally put up against an opponent armed with machine guns but one must also understand the fact that not long ago Chechen muslims armed with flintlocks and scimitars managed to whip the Russian army. Complacency is a surefire plan for your own defeat - the Russian leaders put their faith in their modern weapons and those weapons ended up being turned against them.

When the fertilizer hits the ventilation system, you can sure bet that I'll be reaching for the closest cartridge gun I have handy but if it's down to bug-out time, you can well bet that faithful and reliable traditional weapons will not be left behind. Even when I hunted with modern guns, I always carried a hawk & knife or three with me including a multi-tool a/k/a Leatherman

[waksupi]

my mocs are so tactical, I can even sneak up on Indians

http://www.arrowmoc.com/s.jpg

Try those up here in the Rockies sometime, on the dry grass, and pine needles. Like skiing? Pretty worthless in this area. If you wear moccasins here, you use soft sole brain tan, if you want to "stick".

[725]

Geraldo,
I don't know the time line or origins of the use of "operators" in this context, but it can be found in the 1961, "Guns of Naverone". (Gregory Peck, Irene Papas, David Niven, et al) Talk about trivia! Wow. I love it.

[Geraldo]

Geraldo,
I don't know the time line or origins of the use of "operators" in this context, but it can be found in the 1961, "Guns of Naverone". (Gregory Peck, Irene Papas, David Niven, et al) Talk about trivia! Wow. I love it.

Now that is some trivia. I'll have to pay attention to it next time it's on. Maybe it goes back to the OSS...so I have an excuse to watch 13 Rue Madelaine again. ;)

[cajun shooter]

They showed Mel Gibson wearing a bullet board loader around his neck in the Patriot. Was that incorrect? As much as I enjoyed the B-Westerns growing up the reason for all the 1880's guns being made today is the SASS clubs and the matches they have. I have a knife made by a man named RW Wilson who is a pretty good hawk maker and all around nice guy. His knife designs are along the Loveless design.

[northmn]

I hae read a few debates on that issue. Most feel it would not be priod correct. Another item that most do not feel is truely authentic is a short starter. There was more than one rifle cone crowned, whcih is a type of counter bore at the muzzle that permits easier hand ramrod seating. While not considered as accurate as a standard crown, its mostly bench differences. Period correctness has to be taken with a grain of salt in that something like a bullet board could have been used by an individual that liked making chairs as in the Patriot. It was not something commonly or typically used, not necessarily something that would not have been used by an individual.

Northmn

[Underclocked]

What is the generally agreed upon "period correct" way to get from your house to the rendezvous or shoot? ;)

[Lead Fred]

What is the generally agreed upon "period correct" way to get from your house to the rendezvous or shoot? ;)

Ford covered station wagon


Try those up here in the Rockies sometime, on the dry grass, and pine needles. Like skiing? Pretty worthless in this area. If you wear moccasins here, you use soft sole brain tan, if you want to "stick".

Here in the Cascades, its wet most of the time, and there is a think canopy.

They are quiet, and DRY

[northmn]

That was one of my little gripes with Rondezvous toward the last. An individual would show up with a pickup load of "stuff" and a trailer with a Teepee and stuff and take half the night to set up. To them if it was made out of wood or iron it was "authentic" Had they not been so snobbish about it I would not have paid much attention. Most commonly the Mountain men went in troups and could save on gear as they shared some items, all on pack horses. Some of the "stuff" I had seen would not fit on a pack horse. These were the BP "tactical" people. There were others very concerned about "period correctness". Its darn hard to determine some items beyond clothing and gun types. They can keep the wool loin cloths.

Northmn

[Geraldo]

That was one of my little gripes with Rondezvous toward the last. An individual would show up with a pickup load of "stuff" and a trailer with a Teepee and stuff and take half the night to set up. To them if it was made out of wood or iron it was "authentic" Had they not been so snobbish about it I would not have paid much attention. Most commonly the Mountain men went in troups and could save on gear as they shared some items, all on pack horses. Some of the "stuff" I had seen would not fit on a pack horse. These were the BP "tactical" people. There were others very concerned about "period correctness". Its darn hard to determine some items beyond clothing and gun types. They can keep the wool loin cloths.

Northmn

Amen, brother, although I thought of those with two tons of gear as KOA campers in funny clothes. I had a friend who was a stickler for authenticity, but he didn't come close to those who argue PC now.

[waksupi]

You certainly do see things at the rendezvous, that don't belong. The "wood or iron" mentality seems to be wide spread. Most of it would have never been seen during the fur trade. I will say some of it is very ingenious, and is nice working art. On the other hand, there were some things that were quite common during the period, that throws the thread count nazis into a tizzy.
We only have one truly primitive shoot around here. What is seen in camp, is only stuff that would have been packed in on a horse, although most of us do arrive by vehicle.