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Buckshot
04-19-2006, 03:32 AM
...............Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed.

Just wanting to see what kinda forum this will be an if I'm gonna get my personal butt flamed :-)

................Buckshot

DX250
04-19-2006, 05:11 AM
Do you mean that Pyrodex stuff I heard about a few years ago and a paper patched boolit?

SharpsShooter
04-19-2006, 06:40 AM
...............Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed.

Just wanting to see what kinda forum this will be an if I'm gonna get my personal butt flamed :-)

................Buckshot


Are you off your meds again???:mrgreen:

waksupi
04-19-2006, 08:36 AM
Gosh, Buckshot, you mentioned the unmentionables, and no one threw a tizzy fit! This may be a very good thing for the advancement of BPCR shooting!

sundog
04-19-2006, 09:03 AM
Yup, that's our Buckshot. Always out on the bleeding edge. To which I say, "It'll never catch on. It's a passing fancy and will go the way of the hoola-hoop, saddle shoes, and the 8-track tape." I bet you owned an Edsel, too. Huh? sundog

StarMetal
04-19-2006, 10:28 AM
Well think about it fellows, would you want some of our youth, new young stock, shooting jacketed and smokeless or not shooting AT ALL? Going off playing video games and listening to that gawd awful musice they listen too. Doing drugs. Huh? Huh? Which? Me...I'd be tickled to the death if the new fad for our youth was shooting jacketed and smokeless. Target, hunting, competition of whatever sort. Don't want any smartass replies about "yeah, drive-by shootings".

Joe

shooter575
04-19-2006, 10:39 AM
See Rick,nothing bad happened! I figure we can use this forum for any old BP rifle shooting what ever.Unlike some of the "other" places [smilie=l:

omgb
04-19-2006, 11:43 AM
I double dare you to say the same thing over on the Shiloh page :Fire: On second thought, don't bother. I can save you the grief and tell you that there wouldn't be enough chapstick in the world to take the dull red glow off your tail. [smilie=w:


R J Talley

KCSO
04-19-2006, 01:43 PM
To he who has invoked the unmentionalbles...

May the curse of the damp primer follow your family like a cloud of pure black powder smoke, clogging your pores and leaving its sooty fragrance on your entire being.

What can I say, I was stubborn enough to work with black and cast in my 303 for over a year.

454PB
04-19-2006, 01:48 PM
I like anything that spits out a projectile, from slingshots to underground silos.

9.3X62AL
04-19-2006, 02:48 PM
454PB summed up my ballistic interests pretty succinctly.

303 British/BP/PB, KCSO? How did THAT work out?

My own BPCR efforts have been pretty limited--a couple hundred rounds in 44-40 for the old '73 carbine I have, which didn't do well. The bore fouled out after 6-7 rounds, and accuracy went to hell after that. Wiping the bore restored things to "hunting accuracy" standards, but five shots was about all before a charcoal mining sequence was called for.

The 45-70 was a VERY different experience, results-wise. I did things differently than I had with the 44-40.......30:1 lead/tin instead of WW metal, hand-lubed with SPG instead of Lyman Ideal via the sizer. Those Lee 405's shot VERY well--5 round groups at 100 yards went 1.25" to 1.5". I wiped the bore after each group, fired a fouler, then five for group. This was done in a Ruger #1, and these groups remain some of its best work to date. In both calibers, Goex was used--2F in 45-70, 3F in 44-40. I'm sure this stuff was the largest limiting factor, but the 45-70 still did good work with it.

So--I will be doing more BPCR work in the future. Certainly in the #1 x 45-70, and possibly in the 44-40 as well. I would be interested in hearing ideas for extending the bore condition's serviceability to maybe 10 rounds or beyond without sacrificing accuracy. I'm sure the first users of these rifles in the 1870's through the 1890's had some regimen to follow for this purpose. Like much about cast boolit shooting, we need to "re-discover" what our predecessors did to make their guns and ammunition work well within the limits of their technology.

montana_charlie
04-19-2006, 05:34 PM
...............Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed, Smokless and jacketed.
I know of a 'sharps-man' who recently quit, then rejoined, the eternal brown-nosing circle 'over there' who would be on your butt like two coons in a henhouse...if he ever had the termerity to join this site. When he disappeared there, I thought he might appear here because he sure loves an audience.

When he showed back up, I think everybody had just straightned up to change partners before bending back over...so he slid right into the circle with a nose in his butt, and his in another's.

At least, the ascerbic old retired gunnery sergeant seems to have gone for good...
CM

45 2.1
04-19-2006, 06:18 PM
If you think smokeless and jacketed would cut a stir, then you should have seen the ruckus I cut when I told them I could make smokeless shoot better than black at long range in a 4570.

longhorn
04-19-2006, 10:39 PM
Deputy Al-first thing I wanted to "test" after I got my Shiloh was how many consecutive rounds I could fire while maintaining accuracy. My hunting load will deliver 12 rounds within the same aggregation as a single 5 round blow-tubed group. (I know, this is awkwardly worded!) Shooting slowly, of course, in the springtime, so the barrel was still "graspable." After 12, flyers are a certainty-or maybe group size just triples, I didn't really waste enough rounds to know. Interestingly, my Browning BPCR with my match loads starts flingin' 'em wide after only 3 non-blow-tubed rounds! I think the key is more complete ignition (duh) which I encourage with plenty of powder (71gr Goex Cartridge under a 420gr bullet), enough compression to make everything fit, very close to max OAL for the bullet/chamber combo, and a gentle crimp. Using standard, not mag primers, on the theory that the increased bump of the magnum might move something (like the bullet into the throat) too soon for consistent powder ignition-haven't tested pistol primers yet because 12 in a row is plenty for me-unless I get into a goat culling operation or something! Plastic wads, BTW. I have no idea how to apply all this to the 44WCF-maybe the forefathers really did have cleaner burning black for those newfangled repeaters?

EDG
04-19-2006, 11:22 PM
If you think smokeless and jacketed would cut a stir, then you should have seen the ruckus I cut when I told them I could make smokeless shoot better than black at long range in a 4570.

When is the last time a BPCR won the WIMBLEDON CUP?

9.3X62AL
04-19-2006, 11:28 PM
I have no idea how to apply all this to the 44WCF-maybe the forefathers really did have cleaner burning black for those newfangled repeaters?[/QUOTE]

That might be the case, dunno for sure. The Lyman Ideal and black powder fouling was fairly hard, and wasn't softened much by blow-tubing. SPG or Emmert's or some other BP lube might have done better work at keeping the fouling in a "steady-state" condition--I think that's what happened in the 45-70's bore environment. I could be prompted to try BP in my 32-20 rifle, as well.

Maybe a "Sticky" could be made up listing some BPCR lube recipes for this section of the board.

Dale53
04-20-2006, 01:02 AM
ONe of the most popular BP lubes (also an excellent smokeless schuetzen lube) is Emmert's:
50% Pure natural beeswax
40% Crisco (the plain white lard lookin' shortening)
10% Canola Oil

I used that successfully for fifteen years with pure black and also worked extremely well with duplex.

I am now using this with 5% Anhydrous Lanolin and 5% Canola Oil. It sticks on the bullets better long term.

Dale53

montana_charlie
04-20-2006, 01:42 AM
My goal was to duplicate SPG while reducing the cost. SPG is advertised to melt at 140°, but my thermometer says it liquifies at 130°.
Whatever...my lube melts at about 20° hotter than SPG, but closely duplicates it's body and consistency...though slightly less 'crumbly'.

In a double boiler, melt a volume of clean beeswax. Then add an equal volume of Camp Dry Beeswax Waterproofer (for boots) made by Kiwi.
(If Ace Hardware doesn't have any...they can order it.)

The Camp Dry will melt more reluctantly than the beeswax did, so a little stirring is helpful. But, they mix well and won't separate as the mixture cools.

12 ounces of beeswax (at $3.00/lb.) is $2.25, and $6.00 gets a 12 oz. jar of Camp Dry Waterproofer. That makes a pound and a half of SPG-type lube for $8.25. An equivalent amount of the 'real thing' is 46 bucks at Midway.

I call it Faux Garbe Lube (FGL) in honor of SPG's inventor.
CM

Jon K
04-21-2006, 11:36 PM
Montana Charlie,

Good info, I'm going to have to try that lube. Currently I'm using DGL and SPG, but I have been wondering about something for the hot summer months.

Jon
:castmine:

Jon K
04-22-2006, 12:04 AM
Smokeless and jacketed..............well I quit smoking in 1982, and I gave up using jacketed a few years back :castmine:

I have to say I learned a lot about BP on the other forums, and there are a lot of good people over there with a lot of good info. some of those that are are quick to Lambaste anyone who mentions smokless, on those forums are no worse than some here that are quick to castrate someone here. I figure it all has to be taken as a grain of salt. Opinions will be opinions, my philosophy is "I pull the trigger, the gun goes 'BOOM", I smile, and if I hit the target, I smile even more".

Jon

omgb
04-22-2006, 01:31 AM
For warm weather I don't think Dan Theodore's White Lightning can be beat. He made it especially for hot dry climates so it works even better in high humidity areas.

montana_charlie
04-22-2006, 04:28 PM
Montana Charlie,
Good info, I'm going to have to try that lube. Currently I'm using DGL and SPG, but I have been wondering about something for the hot summer months.
Let me know if it's any good, Jon.
Alternatively, Steve Garbe says his SPG works better in hot weather if you pan lube. Seems that running it through a luber sorta breaks down it's 'body'.

The way I read that (because I don't want to pan lube) is that running it through a luber should make it work well in cooler weather, and using a luber heater should 'temper' it for hot weather shooting.

I didn't set out to find a 'better' lube...just a cheaper way to shoot SPG without having to steal it.
I got a pretty close match in consistency, so I compared the melting points by placing two pea-sized balls in a little pan floating on water. As the water heated, I kept checking the temperature with an infrared thermometer. SPG melted before FGL.

For warm weather I don't think Dan Theodore's White Lightning can be beat. He made it especially for hot dry climates so it works even better in high humidity areas.
That's good to know, R J.
Now, if somebody can figure out how to make it for 9 bucks a pound instead of buying it for 60...even po' boys can use it.
CM

omgb
04-22-2006, 05:04 PM
I think I paid about $50 for a 3lb block. I use it only for BP so geez, 3 lbs lasts a long time. Gas to the range and back costs $7.00 and it's under 25 miles each way.

montana_charlie
04-22-2006, 05:48 PM
Ever since I posted those numbers, I have been looking for a source of that lube.
Who carries it?

KCSO
04-22-2006, 06:10 PM
As to cleaner burning powders in the old days, you bet. Ned Roberts would only shoot Curtis and Harvey as he claimed it caked less and burned cleanest. Part of that has to do with how the powder is made. They use to not coat the powder, but to tumble it for a long time to glaze it over. They don't do that anymore because that is the most dangerous part of the operation.

As to Black in the 303 I never did get to where I could shoot 10 rounds without cleaning. I also used mostly cast as I was afraid that jacketed would shoot up the pressure when the fouling built up. My loads were pretty wimpy compared to the original British loads, but they put a slug of powder in an un formed case and squeezed the neck in while the powder was sitting in the case. I alsway wanted to try metford rifling, but I never have picked up a gun with decent metford. It is either all shot out or rougher than a cob. A case full of rifle grade pyrodex and a 220 cast bullet will shoot pretty good, and will go about 32-40 velocity.

SharpsShooter
04-22-2006, 06:19 PM
You guys need to try BullShops #2 Black Powder Lube. I bought 10 sticks for $30 and I think $2 shipping. I use it with the Lee 457-450F which has questionable lube capacity for Black Powder use in the first place. In cold weather using a Fed 215 to ignite 70gr of Goex Cartridge under a .030 Walters Wad, and this boolit. I have excellent results. I'm just now begining to see warm weather here and will be using this lube all Summer do not anticipate any difficulties whatsoever.

lovedogs
04-26-2006, 10:24 PM
I tried black powder for a while and got tired of all the **** real quick. The "experts" are always telling us how it will outshoot smokeless. But I shoot smokeless in my Buffalo Classic .45-70 with my own cast 500 grainers and have yet to see anyone outshoot it. Cheap gun, smokeless powder... it's not supposed to work. But whenever we shoot at the range the BP guys always come up with some excuse why they're not shooting up to par. Too much fouling. Wrong lube. Wrong this and wrong that. Horse manure! I'll stick with my smokeless. No soaking cases and scrubbing everything as if it had radioactive fallout for me. I'll just stick with my smokeless and its MOA groups, thank you!