Cast Lyman 225464 in 221 Fireball results

[windrider919]

I have been shooting PP for years, mostly 45cal and recently wanted to try cast GG/GC in 22. So here is the results of my test.

I shot this last weekend, Lyman 225646 63gr bullets (mould for 55gr but cast n GC is 63gr) were loaded with GC base even with bottom of case neck. I loaded 10ea with Hogden Universal starting at 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0. COW was used to fill each cartridge up to the case neck but not a compressed load. The bullets nose engraves into the rifling about .050. I shot with the rifle cradled in sandbags forend n butt. 5 shot groups with starting with the barrel cool for all but the last which was a 10 shot string. The barrel does not warm up much for these loads, the final 10 shots was about as warm as 1 shot with J-bullet at max FPS. There was NO leading and the barrel stayed quite clean looking.

The accuracy was very poor actually. The lower speed had biggest groups with the 5.0 load being the only one to keep all shots on the paper. You can't see it in the picture but most of the holes are slightly oblong like the bullet was tipping. I think that the bullets were not stabilizing. My rifle has 12" twist and the bullet length/weight should have been OK.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/221fireball_63grcast_100yd008.jpg
10 shot group - 100yd, 5mph wind from behind, 87 deg, hazy day
(disregard two large holes, I finished the day shooting 5 shots 45ACP at this target, 100yd range)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/221fireball_15grLilGun_100yd006.jpg
5 shot group - Same conditions, 40gr Nosler BalTip w/15.0gr LilGun to compare with cast accuracy

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Sorry, but your 1:12 twist is most likely too slow to stabilize the 62gr boolits.

Try a boolit design that is 55gr or less. Either that, or put a 1:10 twist barrel on your rifle.

[BarryinIN]

I'll be watching this, since I plan on trying some cast in my .221 Fireball rifle soon (which means it will probably be about a year).
It looks like a good cast caliber to me, and the first thing I thought of when I got a Lyman 225415 mould recently.

[Larry Gibson]

Windrider919

SierraWhiskeyMC is correct; "Sorry, but your 1:12 twist is most likely too slow to stabilize the 62gr boolits."

As he suggests you probably need a lighter weight bullet for those lower velocity type of loads with faster burning powders. Try Lymans 225438 or 225415. I'd also discontinue the use of COW and opt for a dacron filler if you need one. If you also use a slower powder like 2400, 4227, 5744 or 4198 you should not need a filler with that case. I'd even try RL7 or H4895. With your rifle's 12" twist you should be able to match your jacketed bullet accuracy with cast bullets in the 2000 to 2200 fps range without too much dificulty. Accuracy at a higher velocity can present some problems. The 225438 will probably be the most accurate bullet.

However, before you go off and get a new mould cast some of your 225464 (are you sure it's not 225462?) out of a soft ductile alloy such as WWs + 2% tin. AC them and let them age for a couple weeks. Then size them as close to "as cast" as you can. Use a good GC and be sure it is square on the base before crimping. Use a good lube such as Javelina, ALOX 2500+, Carnauba Red or LBT Blue soft. Then load them over a slow powder with 4895 being the slowest and maybe even working up to AA4350. You want to push that bullet to 2200 fps or so with close to a case full of a slow burning powder. A higher velocity with that bullet might stabilize it and it may work out for you. A given twist can generally stabilize a heavier shorter stubbier cast bullet than it can an equal weight jacketed bullet. However it takes some velocity (higher velocity = higher RPM = sufficient stabilization in this particular case up to 2200 fps or so) to get that heavy of a bullet stable in a 12" twist barrel.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal, 45 2.1, et all...

Don't go off and say I am contradicting myself or quote me out of context in the future. The case here is lack of initial RPM to stabilize the heavy (62 gr) bullet for the 12" twist. This has nothing to do with the RPM threshold. Stabilization means the bullet is flying point forward and does not tumble. There are degrees to stabilization and in this case there is not enough RPM to stabilize the bullet. While stabilization is only one of the requirements for accuracy. Many stabilized bullets are inaccurate because there are other causes such as the RPM threshold.

This is all I'm going to say here regardless of any responses. I will not partake in hijacking this thread any further. My apologies to Windrider919 for this post.

Larry Gibson

[HORNET]

Windrider, I assume that you're referring to the 225646 and transposed the numbers? Bore rider around 60 grains depending on alloy? If so, you ought to be able to get them doping very well out of a 12" twist. That goes for the 225462 Loverin design as well, if that's the one that you mean.
Forget the fast powders. Try something in the 4198/3031 range. I'm running them out of an old .222 with loads around 17.5 gr and slightly under MOA (still developing). You've got a little smaller case capacity so you might want to start around 14 gr and work upward (check loads for 60 gr jacketed & back off a little). I'm also uasing a R-P 7-1/2 but a milder 6-1/2 would probably work in the smaller case and may give better groups. You need to try both to see what it likes. I'll agree with Larry's suggested speed range as a starter.

[StarMetal]

Starmetal, 45 2.1, et all...

Don't go off and say I am contradicting myself or quote me out of context in the future. The case here is lack of initial RPM to stabilize the heavy (62 gr) bullet for the 12" twist. This has nothing to do with the RPM threshold. Stabilization means the bullet is flying point forward and does not tumble. There are degrees to stabilization and in this case there is not enough RPM to stabilize the bullet. While stabilization is only one of the requirements for accuracy. Many stabilized bullets are inaccurate because there are other causes such as the RPM threshold.

This is all I'm going to say here regardless of any responses. I will not partake in hijacking this thread any further. My apologies to Windrider919 for this post.

Larry Gibson

Larry!!! I didn't say a word...nor did I intent to.

Joe:Fire:

[45 2.1]

According to greenhill: 0.225" diameter boolit and 12" twist gives max boolit length at about; 0.633" when shot under 1800 fps and 0.759" when shot in the 1800 fps and above range. Whats the 225464s length ready to load? Perhaps it needs to go faster....................

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Hey everyone,

I am the guy who traded the 22 boolits to Windrider. I am shooting them from a 1-14 twist 22-250. I too have yet to find a load that shot really well, no leading but no real great accuracy. I have shot 62gr “J” word bullets from my 22-250 without a problem so I do not think the weight is the real problem, maybe the length could be an issue.

The boolits were just strait WW (that’s all I have) that had been water dropped. Hornady gas check, Blue Angel lube, and sized to .225.

I really should try a harder alloy and a rifle lube. I am open to suggestions.

[leftiye]

Ya can go hotter to get more rpms and more resultant stabilization, but you might probly get enough deformation to ruin accuracy some and offset the benefit. Stabilization is about boolit length and rpms. Rpms is about twist AND velocity. A jacketed bullet stabilizing in a gun at 3500 rpms in a 14 twist says nothing about what an equally long boolit will do at 1800 rpms. And as I said speeding up to get more rpms may be a waste of time if accuracy goes south for other reasons.

Hard boolits, over groove diameter, good lube, moderate to light for caliber weight, moderate velocity add up to a boolit that doesn't get distorted, does hold the rifling, does seal against blowby, and does stabilize. Slow application of thrust to the boolit's hinder -IOW slower powders, and good lubes help keep distortion down too. Oh, and pistol primers!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Oh, and pistol primers!

Pistol primers? What advantages does that have? Every load manual has a warning against the use of pistol primers in rifles do to the risk of primer penetration and misfires.

[HORNET]

Pistol primers can work fine IF you pay attention to the pressure signs when you start low and work up a powder charge. They supposedly have a 'softer' ignition which is supposed to slow the initial rate of pressure rise and delay the pressure peak until the boolit is further down the barrel and better supported against deformation. Supposed to let you get away with running softer allows, as well. It can cause erratic accuracy (due to erratic ignition?) in some cases and accuracy might improve with a hotter primer or the use of a filler. Bass Ackwards used to advocate using a case full of 4831 with a pistol primer in the .22's. I thought it burned absolutely filthy and prefer faster powders since I hate putting fillers into .22 cases.

[leftiye]

I would only use pistol primers in loads appropriate in pressure to their strength, for one thing. Then you have to have powder that ignites easily, and burns well at the pressures that you (expect to) produce. This often means pistol powder, though some of the rifle powders - usually the faster ones - will burn well and clean at lower pressures. As with H110 and 296 - ball powders may not ignite well enough with light ignition to even be safe. With the right powders and loads otherwise, good ignition in the 20,000 range can be had. Probly most useful with softer alloys that deform more easily.

[Larry Gibson]

2ndAmendmentNut

I am the guy who traded the 22 boolits to Windrider. I am shooting them from a 1-14 twist 22-250. I too have yet to find a load that shot really well, no leading but no real great accuracy. I have shot 62gr “J” word bullets from my 22-250 without a problem so I do not think the weight is the real problem, maybe the length could be an issue.

Many times what we "think" is not what really is. In this case a 62 gr J bullet from your 22-250 with 14" twist at 3500 fps generates a lot of RPM (180,000) while the same 62 gr bullet at 2200 fps in a 12" twist only generates 132,000 RPM. Widriders loads down in the 1700-1800 fps range, if that, were only generating 102-108,000 RPM. That is a lot of difference in rotational stability and the probable cause of the observed instability. Besides, I have shot numerous 225462s and 225464s at 60 gr out of 12" twists and know where they are stable and where they are not. You might note that Lyman's lowest starting load for the 225462 in a 14" 22-250 is 1830 fps which should tell us something.

The boolits were just strait WW (that’s all I have) that had been water dropped. Hornady gas check, Blue Angel lube, and sized to .225.

I really should try a harder alloy and a rifle lube. I am open to suggestions.

I'd suggest adding 2% tin to your WWs for a better fill and a slightly different alloy with better HV capability. Even adding some lead might improve things especially with a 225462. Hard to say with the 225464 but it's worth a try. Contrary to popular opinion and past writings "harder" is "better" only up to a certain point. I'm finding a ductile alloy in the 18 BHN range is giving "better" accuracy at HV in many applications. I'd also suggest honing your .225 sizer out ot size your bullets "as cast". Some time back I got a .228 sizer from Buckshot (I think) and it made a noticeable accuracy improvement in most all of my .22 cal cast loads. It Just crimps the GC and Lubes my 225438s, 225415s and 225462s without any sizing.

Larry Gibson