Wheel Weights

[msw]

Hello,

I'm a new boolit caster to be. I've started making ingots--some actually worked out--bt I think I royally screwed up my gear & some ingots, which is why I registered here and started looking for help before I REALLY mess something up so bad I appear on the nightly news....:groner:

Greetings from New Hampshire. Sorry to start with a whining, stupidity-related screw-up. I thought I read all the important internet info on safely casting bullets--until I started actually making ingots. Some of the guys on ARForums referred me to this site.

My mechanic was kind enough to give me 10 lbs of WW. I had also acquired 50lbs of lead sheet wall lining. So, I purchased a Lee 20# bottom pour furnace, some 30/70 antimony/lead alloy & decided to turn the sheet lead & wheel weights into ingots. This is where my first mistake came--I wasn't aware there were anything BUT lead wheel weights until today. I read about safety, and alloy proportions, antimony, fluxing, tin & alloy flow--but I didn't see anything about these environmentally friendly, boolit-caster nemesis known as Zn WW.

The 50 lbs of lead sheet melted without incident. The pot stayed at about 750 degrees on high (as per RCBS thermometer) which probably occured as I would add new lead ( about 1-2 lbs) as I poured an ingot or 3, then let the whole pot melt, then flux, then pour ingots. I used Midway/Frankfort Arsenal Smoke-Free Flux (Boric acid, I think).

Since this part went well, I finished up the pure lead & then put the WW into the pot & kept the heat on high....that's when things started getting...well, a might bit interesting, as some of the Ol' Yankees say...

There was a great deal of smoke & black/grey, crusty dross which I skimmed. Some was almost like charcoal--some like heavy grey/black crystals. Then, the mix actually started to bubble so I checked the temp which was about 900-925 degrees--so I turned the heat down. As I was removing the clips & dross, a yellow/orange almost rust-like crust was on my dipper and lining the inside of the pot. There was a thin layer of silvery metal (lead, I'm guessing) on the surface of the crust, but if I shook the metal off, the crust persisted. I kept fluxing with boric acid, and got out as much of the dross & crud as I could, but the pot & spoon (a Lee dipper) were still covered with this thin layer of lead over this yellow/orange rust-like crust. I finished pouring the ingots and tried to get all the crud/dross/scum out of the pot, then turned it off to cool.

The crust is still there on the Lee Dipper. I've tried to clean off this crust with a Scotch Brite pad, paint scraper, razor--But some is densely adherent to the spoon & pot. The pot is fairly, but not 100% clean. I think I'll just buy a new spoon--I think it's toast. I don't know what this crust is & if it's totally messed up my pot & alloy. I won't be able to fire-up the pot for another week due to work obligations.

Has anyone seen this before? Have I totally destroyed my furnace? In looking at the WW Stickie today, I'm 100% certain there were zinc WW in the mix--how many, I couldn't say. I got 8.5lbs of ingots from 10lbs of WW--and I'm guessing I have to trash these ingots due to zinc contamination.

Thank you fo the help--sorry to make such an idiotic first impression.[smilie=b:

[454PB]

How do you know the melt was at 900-925 degrees?

Unless you have a lead thermometer, you must be assuming the thermostat marks indicate 100 degrees per number.....which is not true.

None of your description sounds alarming, except for the yellow/orange crust. Smelting wheelweights nearly always produces lots of smoke, black dross, and dirt. I'd advise you to use a separate pot for smelting, use the Lee for casting.

No, you haven't destroyed your pot. Even if the alloy IS zinc contaminated, you can clean the pot and trudge on. But before you assume that, try casting some boolits with the suspect alloy. You'll know really quick if it's zinc contaminated.

Almost forgot....WELCOME to the forum!

[bootsnthejeep]

The 50 lbs of lead sheet melted without incident. The pot stayed at about 750 degrees on high (as per RCBS thermometer) which probably occured as I would add new lead ( about 1-2 lbs) as I poured an ingot or 3, then let the whole pot melt, then flux, then pour ingots.

Looks like he does have one.

[rjbishop]

I used Midway/Frankfort Arsenal Smoke-Free Flux (Boric acid, I think).

I have read that Boric based fluxes can actually remove tin, arsenic, and antimony from a melt. I can't recall the site where I read this, but it was a very technical and well written web site on all the ins and outs of casting.

Having used this very same product, I can believe it. I only used it once or twice, and I have since thrown that stuff away. Reading your description- I'm guessing this is exactly what happened in your case. I will try to find the URL of the write-up.

I have experimented with different fluxes. One interesting fluxing compound I've tried is ground up walnut shells (the same thing reloaders use in their tumblers). Works great, but it tends to leave a bit of "rust" on the side of the pot. I'm also going to try pine sawdust, and have had great luck with paraffin.

[MtGun44]

Welcome!

Try cast with your alloy, see what it does. Evern if zinc contaminated, there are some
that have solved this with sulphur, altho it is messy and stinky and MUST be done outdoors.
Search on the zinc removal thread and DON'T do it until you verify that the ingots will
not cast properly.

Bill

[snaggdit]

When "smelting" ALWAYS use a different pot. Lesson learned. Your pot will be fine, but the spout might need to be cleaned good. Zinc melted into your mix will form an oatmeal in the pot. It will still be silver, just really thick and chunky so I doubt you got comtaminated. The advice above is good. If it forms boolits you are OK.

Now, WW will always smoke and have crud to skim off. Get rid of the Midway flux. Get yourself some charcoal or sawdust (or candle wax). Get a wood stick (paint stirrers will work) and stir your melt with it (in a separate pot! Enameled steel pots from the thrift store will work if you don't have a cast iron one yet. Don't use aluminum!). The carbon will allow oxides to remelt into your mix. When alloys get heated up to around 850 to 900 degrees the tin and antimony will oxidize much faster. Depending on the composition you will get different colors and the stuff will return as fast as you skim it off. Drop the temp some when "smelting". When casting, you can avoid the oxides by keeping a layer of charcoal (or burnt sawdust) on top when using your bottom pour. Kitty litter works for this, too. It will also help insulate the melt to keep the temp more regulated.

You sound like you are doing fine. Don't panic! Keep at it.

[Circuit Rider]

MSW, I've been casting 2 years, a rookie compared to most of the guys on here. The only advise I'll offer is to listen to what they have to tell you. You'll get straight forward, good info. Remember, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. You'll be fine pardner, Circuit Rider:castmine:

[lylejb]

I have read on several threads here that borax / borate fluxes (marvelux is one brand often stated) can leave a hard crust. I read it can be glass-like. They also can draw moisture, causing rust. Sound familiar? Because of what i've read about them, i've avoided them.

Almost anything carbon based, or that will burn down to carbon, can be used as a flux. Paraffin wax, beeswax, wood sawdust, will work just fine. I even read in one thread here about one guy trying used motor oil. I don't think I want to try motor oil, it would have to smoke badly, but sombody else did.

I'm using paraffin wax, because i have it in hand. I also stir the melt with a DRY wooden stick (more carbon). The sticks I pick up free from home depot, as paint stir sticks. If you don't have paraffin handy, keep an eye out for old candles at yard sales, thrift stores, ect. You can build a good supply that way.

As far as trashing the ingots for zinc contamination, whoa....not so fast. Your not SURE you have zinc, your just afraid you MIGHT. I would suggest you try to melt a couple of your WW ingots, watching the temperature. WW alloy should melt a little over 500f ( per cast bullet notes) I would take the temp upto about 600f and hold. See if you have all liquid, or if you have a slushy consistantcy. Who knows, you might have got lucky;)

Yesterday, I smelted about 40 lbs of wheel weights I got from a Chevy dealership. I sorted out exactly 1 zinc weight. About 5 lbs were iron weights, marked "Fe". The rest were lead, and smelted fine. I was pleasantly suprised. I've read that the number of zinc or iron weights will vary with your location.

[462]

msw,

My experience with a missed zinc weight or two is that it will cause the melt will turn into an oatmeal like mush. You'll know it if it happens.

Regarding the yellow/orange rust-like crust, what color is your local soil? Over time, wheel weights will become encrusted with dirt and mud. I bought a used Lee 10-pound from a guy who lives in Butte, Montana. He didn't clean it, prior to selling it, and when I received it, the inside had a reddish hue -- the color of that area's soil. Where I live, the soil is very sandy, and the pot's interior develops a light brown residue.

[windrider919]

Snaggdit wrote exactly what I would have.

I have removed most of the zinc contamination by heating the pot to the melting point of lead/tin which leaves crystals of zinc that I skimmed out. You lose a little lead but not much.

And using a 1/4 cup of powdered charcoal floating on top of your melt keeps it fluxed and I only stir it occasionally as I add new metal.

[msw]

Actually--there was an oatmeal/mush for about 10-15 minutes. I kept mixing and assumed the WW were slow to come up to temp due to the irregular shape & lack of contact with the pot. Then there was melted lead, & then it suddenly started to bubble, which is when I checked the temp with the RCBS thermometer.

Some of the WW were grey painted and I couldn't crack or scrape them--I thought they had a hard epoxy on them, or some "lead-sealing" finish to protect us from the evil lead WWs.

I have several pounds of parrafin for making wax bullets for use with primers--a close range practice round. Guess it'll be doing double duty as flux in the future.

Funny--at ARForums, everyone recommended MarveFlux from Brownell's, which is why I got the boric acid.

Whatever this crust was flet like lye or some other type of hydroxide--very slippery & tacky--as I washed it off my hands I thought NEXT TIME WEAR GLOVES! My hands still tingle this a.m..

Thanks to all for the help--will read more here & ask questions.

Thanks again!

[Bret4207]

Welcome aboard. The orangeish stuff could be almost anything- a paint, epoxy, metal, or more likely a combo of several things. Clean what you can and go from there. Any zinc can be dealt with although it's a pain. You need to try some casting now to see how the alloy responds.

[qajaq59]

And when you are smelting the WW keep the temperature around 620-650 so the zinc will not melt at all. Then you can just take them out with the clips and you wont have to worry about the zinc.

[squid1230]

I suspect the orange crust was a result of your using boric acid. I use sawdust as my wife got p*ssed I kept using her scented candles. My casting sessions sure smelled nice though.

[blackthorn]

First of all, welcome to the world of cast Boolits!! Before you throw out that crudded-up ladel, try heating it up really hot and plunge it into some very cold water. Sometimes this trick will cause the crud to loosen and it can be taken off the ladel. Have a great day.

[snaggdit]

Actually--there was an oatmeal/mush for about 10-15 minutes. I kept mixing and assumed the WW were slow to come up to temp due to the irregular shape & lack of contact with the pot. Then there was melted lead, & then it suddenly started to bubble, which is when I checked the temp with the RCBS thermometer. Could be why you ended up at 950. You might have contamination, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Try to cast with them first.

Some of the WW were grey painted and I couldn't crack or scrape them--I thought they had a hard epoxy on them, or some "lead-sealing" finish to protect us from the evil lead WWs. Many lead weights have paint coatings on them. Not a way to distinguish Zinc. Zinc weights will sometimes be marked Zn but will always be virtually impossible to cut with side cutters. Lead weights can be snipped in half.

I have several pounds of parrafin for making wax bullets for use with primers--a close range practice round. Guess it'll be doing double duty as flux in the future. That will work

Funny--at ARForums, everyone recommended MarveFlux from Brownell's, which is why I got the boric acid.

Whatever this crust was flet like lye or some other type of hydroxide--very slippery & tacky--as I washed it off my hands I thought NEXT TIME WEAR GLOVES! My hands still tingle this a.m..

Thanks to all for the help--will read more here & ask questions.

Thanks again!

Hope this helps

[docone31]

It sounds like you have been haveing fun!
Lots of smoke, interesting looking colours, all kinds of stuff.
First,
Do not melt in the pot! Get a second pot for making alloy for ingots.
I use a Lee Bottom Pour Pot, for many years now. Still works well. A drip or two once in a while, but a twist with a screw driver and it is fixed untill the next time.
Keep the slag out of the pot!
While making ingots, I keep the burner on high. I use a ladle and ladle from under the surface. While any zinc will form an oatmeal like substance, it is also lighter than the resulting alloy. I also use about 2%zinc in my alloy. Don't be afraid of zinc.
With the crud on the ladle, let it sit and oxide. The metal will melt off next time. Keeping the ladle at temp is beneficial to casting.
I use Kitty Litter as flux in my casting pot. I use no flux in my melting pot. I found enough contaminants in my melt to keep my desire to flux satisfied.
The Kitty Litter floats on top of the casting pot, it acts as a sponge to remelt the rejects, it deteriorates slowly to dust on top. It prevents any wet metal from getting into the melt. A good thing. I water quench my melt. I keep the Kitty Litter thick enough to prevent rejects from hitting the melt metal.
You did ok. Take it easy.
It is lead/lead alloy. It melts easily.
When ingoting, keep the wheel weights and other alloys seperate. Keep them in seperate piles. This way, when you figuire out a ratio, you can take X amount from this pile, and Y amount from that pile. When you have your formula, then you can make a bunch of it.
Once you find your sizeing, hardness, and fillout alloy, it will be your sweet spot. With enough casting, you will be able to just toss in the right amount.
Pure lead is purple on top, Tin is brown.
Keep at it.

[msw]

Thank you all for the help. I'm glad to read that I didn't destroy everything.

Looks like it's time to get a cast iron pot for the WWs.

I did separate my ingots--I have a bunch of pure lead, antimony & tin bar pieces in a box awaiting the next session--which is to be a casting session. I'm trying to replicate Lyman #2 alloy of 90% lead, 5% tin & antimony. I have 30/70 antimony/lead--this was the first thing I melted and it took an hour on high to get it into pourable liquid.

Time to go read the Stickies to hopefully avoid another thread of embarrassment.

Thank you all again.

[454PB]

Marvelux gets universally bashed around here, but I've been using it for 30 years and have never seen it cause any unusual colors.

I also use the Frankford Arsenal equivalent....it actually works a little better than Marvelux.

[grages]

Over in the Lead and lead alloys forum is a post about removing zinc with sulphur

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63082

Shawn

[evan price]

I have so far tried fluxing with paraffin, crayons, and used motor oil. The used motor oil leaves a lot more soot in the pot than anything else, and a lot more smoke, but it seemed to do the best job to me. I pour a couple dollops in my ladle, heat the ladle in the melt until I see the oil start to bubble, then slowly pour in and wait for the fireball. Then stir like heck.