Help, can't find the target...

[konaaahbend]

So I'm new to casting and reloading, thought I'd jump in with both feet. I'm shooting a Marlin .45-70, remington primer, Hodgdon 4895 at 53 grains and a lee 340 grain flat nose, no gas check. At 100 yds, five out of 20 plus shots hit the paper, at 50 yards about the same. When I normally shoot at 100 yds with factory ammo, it's a 2 inch group. What am I doing wrong and how/where do I backtrack to find the problem ? Do I try a similar powder load with a similar weight factory slug ? Help, deer is only two weeks away and I really wanted to use my own ammo ! Thanks, Gordon:violin:

[runfiverun]

slow down the load try for about 1300 fps.
make sure the boolit is oversized for the marlin.
you wanna go much oer the 13-14 range you need a gas check or p/p.
1300 and a 340 gr boolit is enough for 3 deer.

[Echo]

Bore size is ? Groove size is ? Boolit diameter is ? I believe you are overpowering the boolit, and may also be shooting a too-small boolit. We need more info.

[badgeredd]

+1 on the above comments, plus since you are trying a new load, move your target range to 25 yards. That will show you a lot and your boolits should all hit paper. Also it sounds like you started fairly high with the velocity. After reading a lot of posts, you'll notice a trend of starting low a working up. If you can get the above details worked out, then work on a good group at 25 yds. Once there with your loads, start moving back from the target. Usually if you're an inch to 1 1/2 inches high at 25 yards, you'll be within a couple inches at 100 yards, high or low, depending on velocity.

Welcome to the casting/reloading fraternity.

Edd

[largom]

Gordon, Welcome to casting and reloading. I've got 6 different 45-70's and they all shoot cast VERY well. Really need a lot more info. to help you.
What is your gun? Have you sluged your bore? What is your boolit alloy? What is the diameter of your cast boolits? Do you have other molds and powder available.
I have never shot anything less than 400Gr. boolits in my guns but I am sure others have. We really need more info. in order to offer advice.

Larry

[Larry Gibson]

konaaabend

"Hodgdon 4895 at 53 grains and a lee 340 grain flat nose, no gas check"

That is the problem. Your load is way too much for a non GC'd bullet of that weight, especially if it is supposed to have a GC. The velocity is probably up around 1800-1900+ fps and 4895 is not the most consistent burning powder with that light of a cast bullet in the 45-70.

If your cast bullet is a plain base bullet (not designed for a GC) then I'd suggest you use a faster burning powder such as 4759 along with a dacron filler. Start at 25 gr and work up in 1 gr increments to 30 gr. That will slow the bullet down to a reasonable velocity (as mentioned in other posts) of 1300 - 1600 fps for that cast bullet and give consistent ignition. Other powders to try are 4227, 2400 and 4198. Start at the same 25 gr and work up until accuracy goes south. As you know the accuracy due to your load is pretty far south now.

If your bullet is of GC design then use a GC if you want any reliable accuracy above 1100fps or so. Also with a cast bullet that light I would also suggest the above powders. You should be able to work up into the 1800 - 1900 fps range with any of them and have decent accuracy with a GC'd bullet.

If that bullet is of GC design and you really want to shoot sans the GC then use Bullseye powder with no filler or wad. Start at 6 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments until 1100 fps is reached or accuracy really goes south. I suggest a 50 yard test range for this.

Larry Gibson

[montana_charlie]

Shooting bare-bottomed bullets at that speed, you should probably check your bore for lead deposits.
By the way, you DID clean out all traces of copper before switching to lead...right?

CM

[MtGun44]

I switch back and forth between cast and jboolits in my GG with no bad effects.

405 RCBS GC and 405 Rem JSP shoot about identically over 57.0 W748 at about 1750.

Bill

[pdawg_shooter]

After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451 and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. The next day the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 58 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

[konaaahbend]

Thanks for the info so far. My gun is a Marlin 1895 XLR, the longer barrel than the guide gun. The boolits are plain base, so no gas check and the 53 grains of powder was the recommended starting point from Hodgdon, max was 57 but boy that seems like a lot. This dose of powder was specific for the boolit I'm casting and attempting to shoot so I didn't give it any thought about being "too" powerful. I guess my next question is using a dacron filler, is this primarily to take up space in the brass and give the powder a more consistant burn and do I just cut a circle the size of the brass and top off the powder with it ? Sorry for being in the dark so much, but I appreciate the help ! Cheers, Gordon

[Gee_Wizz01]

konaaahbend, what diameter are your bullets dropping, and what diam are you sizing to? Also what lube are you using? Are you getting a lot of leading? I have found that the bullets for my Marlin need to be at least .459" to get good accuracy, and .460 is better.
I use a the Ranch Dog 460-350 with a Gas Check sized .460 lubed with LLA and loaded over 51.5 gr of H322. I am getting 1900 fps and 1.5" groups at 100yds with and 1895G.

G

[Larry Gibson]

konaaahbend

"I guess my next question is using a dacron filler, is this primarily to take up space in the brass and give the powder a more consistant burn"

Yes, it is to take up the space and keep the powder back against the primer. In large volume cases where the powder takes up less than 80% of the space it most often does result in much more consistant ignition and hence, better accuracy.

"and do I just cut a circle the size of the brass and top off the powder with it ?"

Best is to use dacron that comes in sheets called "batting". It is available at most all fabric stores, is very inexpensive and a couple yards of the 5/8" thick stuff will last for a lot of shots. Cut the batting into strips about 5/8 to 3/4" wide. Then cut a couple chunks of until you have one that weighs 1 gr. Use that to "eyeball" cut the rest of the strips. The 1 gr square chunk of dacron then is about right for the 45-70 as a filler. fter charging the cases with powder use a rod (I use a section of .30 cal rod for the 45-70) to push the dacron into the case. Do not tamp it down on the powder or it becomes a wad. Simply push it into the case and let the bullet push it down onto the powder.

"Sorry for being in the dark so much, but I appreciate the help !"

Not a problem, everyone starts somewhere and it is usually "in the dark".

Larry Gibson

[405]

Oh yes, as others have said. Way too much for that bullet. You may be too short on time to do justice to the game. Might get some Rem Factory 405 jacketed to hunt with this year then start working on the cast bullet thing. You just don't need all that velocity with the big 45 to kill cleanly. It is NOT a 300 yard gun anyway. The main thing with the big bullets is accuracy!

I'd try a cast GAS CHECKED bullet 300-405 grains sized to .459-.460 over a powder like 4759 or 5744 with a velocity goal of 1200 to 1300 fps. You can find data in the Lyman editions 48 and 49 in the "Trapdoor 45-70" section.

[RayinNH]

Those trapdoor loads are so much more pleasant to shoot too...Ray

[konaaahbend]

Okydoky, so my bore dia. is .456, half my bullets are sized to .457 and the other half are out of the mold .458 and my barrel is leaded horribly after only 20 rounds ! So was my first mistake following a reloading guide ??? and should I continue to size my boolits or shoot them .002 over the bore diameter ? Thanks and happy 1st of fall !

[1Shirt]

Suggest .458 at least and probably .459. Water drop them, and try Lee Liquid Alox lube, use about a 1/2 or so gr. of dacron, and get vols down around the 12-1300 fps level and you ought to be good. My lite load with your blt is 22 gr. of 2400, at right about 1300 in my #1.
Good luck!:coffeecom

[405]

Okydoky, so my bore dia. is .456, half my bullets are sized to .457 and the other half are out of the mold .458 and my barrel is leaded horribly after only 20 rounds ! So was my first mistake following a reloading guide ??? and should I continue to size my boolits or shoot them .002 over the bore diameter ? Thanks and happy 1st of fall !

Need to check definitions. Bore diameter is what the barrel is drilled to first (diameter measured land to land- the bore diameter). Then the grooves are cut/ironed/formed (diameter measured groove to groove- the groove diameter). If a soft lead slug is driven through the barrel these two dimensions can be easily measured and are critical to successful cast bullet use.

Nominally, a 45-70 (45 cal rifle) barrel will have a bore diameter somewhere around .450. And it will have a groove diameter somewhere around .458. The best grease groove cast bullet sizing for this "nominal" bore would be around .459. Most modern 45 cal rifles will have bores fairly close to these two internal dimensions. But, they all vary a little and that is why most cast bullet shooters "slug" their bores to get the exact dimensions... then size their cast bullets accordingly.

Your leading and poor accuracy can be from either or both.... too much pressure and/or velocity for that bullet, wrong diameter bullet. I'd still go with a gas checked bullet sized, to start with, at .001 larger than groove diameter of your bore. Then ease off the pressure thus velocity to around 1200-1300. The 4759 and 5744 powders are well suited to that task in the 45-70.

[konaaahbend]

I guess I used the wrong terminology, I did slug my gun and using my dial calipers came up with the .456 at the widest. So I go off the grooves for the slug measurment and size the cast boolits at .458 to .459 ? Roger that, and thanks for all the help everyone !!!