Teen age boys

[KevMT]

Forgive me while I vent a little bit.
A post on another thread has brought up a problem that I have been dealing with for some time. I am the father of a 15 year old who is the kind of son I could only hope for. He is courteous, respectful, honorable, smart, and lives by the golden rule. So what’s the problem you ask? The problem is, many of his peers don’t seem to share the same values. He is home schooled now but when he was in public school there were times when he was physically assaulted by other students frequently for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The funny thing is, in all cases he mopped the floor with his attacker except for the one case where the teacher separated the boys before my son could un-cork. The problem here was that due to the schools “zero tolerance” policy on fighting the school would treat my son as though he is in the wrong for defending himself and getting angry because he was assaulted. Detentions and suspensions were thus given out to all parties involved. Although many boys would simply shrug the whole thing off, my son would be upset for days because he was being treated the same as a bully of which he certainly is not. More recently at a social function, one of the other boys had picked up a small stick that he would repeatedly “accidentally” poke my son with every time they passed. My son was extremely upset as to why someone would do something like this. Especially in that sneaky fashion that little jerks do so that no one else sees it. I told him that although he could not throw punches I was giving him free rein to set the little punk straight. But, my son countered that he was afraid that the other parents, not seeing what had “accidentally” transpired would think him a thug and a bully. He remained very upset over this incident for some time though, and eventually we tried letting him see a councilor in the hopes that she could help him understand that 1) there are a lot of jerks in the world. 2) He needs some coping skills to deal with the fact that SOME people in the world are 2 faced, back stabbing, dominating jerks. Unfortunatly the counselor wanted to get at my son’s “anger issues” by asking him “what makes you think you have the right to sit in judgment of other people”. As if being upset about being poked with a stick is a character flaw. We terminated the counseling sessions and I have started doing something I never thought I would do. I have been telling my son that he is better than many other people. He has honor, integrity and intelligence. These traits are not shared by MANY of his peers, (nor mine for that matter) and although many of them view these behaviors as character flaws, the fact is he is a better man than they will ever be because of them. I hope it helps.

[454PB]

My kids are now in their middle 30's. If your son has the character you describe, spend lots of time talking to him about the good AND bad people in this world. I don't mean pound it into his head, just a nice serious discussion. This is only the first of a long list of challenges he (and you) will face in life.

My son was the typical teenager, and went through good and bad phases. What surprised me as he became an adult and raising his own son is that he still remembers the talks I had with him even now, and uses the same method with his son. Oh.....and take him hunting too!

[redneckdan]

I dealt with a lot of this in both middle school and a little bit in high school. Just remember, you are raiseing your son for the really world not some school district adminstrators idea of a "safe harbor". The world is not a friendly place and a man needs to stand up for himself There was a great blogger by the name of Kim du Toit who unfortunately got shut down. One of his greatest essays was Pussyfication of the Western Male. This essay detailed how North Amercian society is against male values that were common place only a couple generations ago. Kim detailed how boys are being taught to "play nice" and "let authorities take care of you" and how these mindsets are poisoning the very idea that made the USA possible, men stepping up and conquering the land and fighting off the enemy.

Middle school is honestly a living hell, high school improves slightly. Thankfully my parents had my back when it came to dealing with school administration; I'm glad I didn't have to deal with them alone. The faculty seems to think they have the right to "help raise the children" instead of backing the hell off. Keep doing what you are doing. Sometimes it felt like my parents were the only ones on myside; that made all the differnece in the world to me.

[7br]

My father told me that "You are not allowed to start a fight, but you can sure finish it". In preschool, my son's pre-school teacher told us that he a slugged a kid at recess. Turns out that the other kid was throwing sand at a little girl and it torqued Jake. As one of the para educators that had been in his class walked up as we were talking and was shocked. When she heard the story, she said "Good for him". Jake is 11 now, sets targets at the silhouette matches, and can plug a .22 turkey at 125 yards with a rifle.

The unfortunate truth is that sometimes that doing the right thing can get you in trouble. IE, in Kansas, if you come up on a deer that has been hit by a car, but isn't dead, it is illegal to put it out of its misery. I don't think would hesitate to do the right thing even though it is technically illegal.

I have told my kids that if they get a two day suspension for sticking up for themselves or for someone who can't stand up for themselves, they get a day of fishing, hunting, or whatever they want. If they get suspended for starting it, they will have another fight on their hands when they get home.

I hope he learns that keeping his own conscience clear is more important than what anyone else thinks of him. There are a couple of things I wish I would have done, but didn't for fear of offending someone. One of which was not reporting some parents to SRS. Yesterday at church, I wound up chewing on a kid in front of his mother. That, I feel comfortable with.

I am going to have to buy "The Shootist" on dvd and force the kids to watch it with me.

Of course, there are other non-physical techniques that can be equally damaging to a young man's pysche, such as saying very loudly, "No, Jimmy, I don't think you are sexy and discussing your sexuality is making me uncomfortable"

[Lee]

Just my .02 and don't misunderstand.

A priest, a minister, or a rabbi just might be able to do a better job of counciling your son than did the so-called councillor you mentioned. Now I'm not trying to get all religiousy, but you may get some assistance there. I've buried a few friends now, and getting older, may bury a few more before it's my turn. In each case, a member of the clergy spoke at the services. In each case, they..., well they helped.

Even a Martial Arts Master(Karate school?) might be able to help. If I hear correctly their philosophy is that of pacification, violence only as a last resort.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to hear that the little jerk picked on someone once too often and got his teeth loosened.

Went through it with my son also, I know what you're going through.

Just my .02............................................... ..Lee:)

[KevMT]

[QUOTE=7br]
I am going to have to buy "The Shootist" on dvd and force the kids to watch it with me.

It's funny you should mention that movie because the quote below keeps playing over and over in my head through this whole thing.

John Bernard Books (The Shootist):
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them."

[omgb]

I teach high school and have some insight on the issue. I've sat in on many, way too many discipline board hearings where boys have gotten into it, shoot, I've had more than a few of these with girls too. Most of us would rather be else where than on these boards. The reason we no longer let the boys have at it is that first, parents sue. Schools are seen by some as cash-cows and court actions as lotteries. All one has to do is raise the issue of imperfect supervision and bang, the bucks roll in. Never mind that I can't be every where at once. If Johhny gets his nose bumped, even if he was the provacature, we're gonna get hammered in court unless we can prove that we have and enforce, a zero violence policy; no exceptions. The other reason is that far too many boys, raised on a steady diet of violent movies and ganster rap, will elevate any scuffle into an armed confrontation. In the past, where two boys used to use fists, now days one if not both, are very likely to bring a gun to the fight. Even worse, they may resort to a group retaliation using semi-autos at some off-campus location. If the fight started on campus and the school didn't stop it and meet out severe discipline to all parties concerned, the school is gonna get its a$$ handed to it in a hat when the case goes to court. Even if the school wins, the dollars lost due to litigation are huge. Finally, add to the mix that many administrators are women and you have a real mess. They simply will not believe that some beings only respond to pain and that physical violence is oftimes the only proper and effective response to evil. Shoot, most of these "do-gooder" types don't even believe that some folks are evil. It seems lost on them that no mother heas to teach her child to lie, steal, cheat, hit, bite, or be selfish. We all do that naturally. Instead, we have to teach the opposite and we must be prepared to respond with force when the lesson goes unlearned as reason never applies to evil. It is by nature, unreasonable and darwinistic in its behavior.

So what's a poor teacher to do? We punish all while trying to give more punishment to the provacature and less to the one who mearly responded to the assault. Of course, good kids get crushed by this and bad kids (yes Virginia, some kids are bad) shrug it off as "the price of doing business". I've seen it way too many times. I hate it. Some people need the s#@$ knocked out of them once in awhile so that they remember right from wrong. As I teach in my classes, "If the margin of expected benefit exceeds the margin of expected cost, the action will take place" Those without honor live by this basic darwinian rule. It makes it tough for the rest of us to deal with because we do things for reasons way beyond pragmatic.

Keep talking to your son. Reinforce those values. Show him this post and tell him that you will stand by him so long as he upholds the values you support. Those with honor ARE superior to those whithout. Valor, honor, respect, dignity, loyalty, fidelity, and right for the sake of right are very much alive in many of us.
R J Talley

[Jumptrap]

Folks,

I have been in lurk mode for sometime. 99% of the subjects as of late haven't stirred enough interst to elicit a response from me..but this one does.

Zero tolerance is ********. It's a damned left wing conspiracy envoked upon the people 'for the good of the children' and it is destroying their ability to think for themselves.

One of the basic intuitions sane people posses is knowing, right from wrong. It is our responsibility to enforce right and suppress wrong. Therefore when wrong raises it's ugly face, it is to be recopgnized for what it is and then dealt with accordingly. We, as parents, must teach our children to recognize injustice..of whatever color, and to rise to the occassion when called upon to do so. This means when our kids go to school and some bullyass crosses the line, your/my kid is obligated to kick his ass..because it is moral, upright, honorable and a positive reaction to a negative action. I don't give a tinkers damn about the school systems Liberal views and attempts to cover it's ass in court. I care about my kids, their integrity and their well being. Life is a tough game and only the strong survive. A few days ago, my 5 year old came home and said another kid (whose 'parents' are lesbians) punched him. I asked Ian if he hit him back? No, the teacher won't let me. I sat him down and told him, "Son, you never allow anybody to hit you...ever. When this happens again, you double up your fist and hit Brennan in the nose...like this. Hit his nose because it hurts really bad. Don't smack like a girl, but make a fist and punch his nose. Brennan will not punch you anymore. If the teacher gets mad, it's okay because I say it is. You tell her to call dad. But never let me hear of anybody hitting you again." I meant those words then and I mean them now. I am not raising my son to take **** from anybody.....or to put it out. We must teach out children to not be victims...intestinal fortitude begins at home! It's one thing to stand and get your ass beat in the process, entirely another to run...that's called cowardice. Neither I, nor society, will tolerate the latter in any form. It doesn't make me a boor or a savage to instill such thoughts in my children, contrary to what the schools and the politically correct mongers chant. Tell you son to stomp that punks ass and if the other kid is bigger, pick up an equalizer and make good use of it.

[onceabull]

Gents: quite a contrast twixt todays schoolhouse rules and what Elmer & Silas Keith did to the bullies when they first moved into the Montana school system ! ! !. If what we have today is "progress" I'm for retrogression.. Onceabull

[versifier]

As parents, if we are good parents, this is an issue we all have to deal with sooner or later. My dad always stood up for me because he knew I would tell him the truth, even if it meant I knew I'd catch hell. He was a teacher at my high school, and not a very popular one because, as a WWII naval officer, he didn't put up with any ********, and he never scaled his grades to make himself look better. On the other hand, he would never flunk a kid whom he knew had made a sincere effort, even if the kid in question was two points smarter than your average rock. He taught US History, which was a required course. I always knew when test scores were announced because since they couldn't take it out on him, they'd take it out on me when they flunked. It really bothered him if he knew they were taking it out on me, so unless I was sporting a black eye or needed stitches, he never found out. The administrator in charge of discipline knew the score, however, and was always accepting of my word. "Did you start it, Tom?" "You know I don't start fights." "I know, but I have to ask." (She also knew that if I cut a class, etc., I would answer her truthfully. She understood what honor was all about, and I had a lot of respect for her.)
Where am I going with this? I have tried to bring up my daughters the same way. They do not lie, and have zero tolerance for bullying. They will not be pushed around or struck, but they will not start a fight unless it is to defend someone who cannot defend themselves. Neither will they rat out on their friends, but will admit their own part in mischief when asked. They understand what honor is all about, and they know I will believe them and back them 100% if they get into trouble when they are innocent. My teenager was attacked in a bathroom by five classmates when in middle school. Two of them needed medical attention and the other three got away with some picturesque bruises. She blocked all of their punches and kicks, and because she knows how to really hurt someone (karate lessons), she did not strike one blow with a closed fist. When hauled off to the principal's office, they accused her of attacking them. He knew her and believed her. There is a mandatory suspension for fighting, she got one day, they got two weeks each.
There are always going to be *******s in this world, and no matter what we do, we cannot and should not shield our children from them. They have to learn to deal with them decisively, but honorably, and they have to KNOW that we will believe them, stand up for them, and be proud of them when they do. They learn first and formost by example, our example.
The values taught in the dojo mirror my own in many ways, but as we are talking about human beings here, there are honorable and honorless senseis. If the focus is on winning in competition, instead find one where the emphasis is on personal growth and respect for self and others.
It sounds like you've got yourself a keeper there, Kevin. You have set the right kind of example. He knows the difference between right and wrong, and has clearly chosen the proper side. How any of us survived our teenage years is some kind of a miracle, but we did, and he will, too. The most important and empowering words that any parent can ever say are "I'm very proud of you." When they're the truth, especially when they're the truth, it can be hard to get them out around the lump in your throat, but there is no denying the love behind the words. All the riches of the universe. Nothing can ever be more important.

[sundog]

Ya know, Kevin, the most important part of that quote is the part about 'expecting' the same for others. That means you have to have a big enough set of kahonas to not only repsect someone else, but to respect yourself to not allow some else to encroach your person or those of your family. Kinda like Teddy R's 'big stick' policy. One reason why some people prolly don't like me, and I don't care, because I don't take their crap. You also remember what J.B. Books told the lad that the difference in a fight is not always whose fastest, but the who is 'willing'. Develop your character, know your values, and don't compromise. sundog

btw, I agree with Jump that zero tolerance (whatever the hell that stupid expression is supposed to mean) is nothing but what he said - ********.

[omgb]

You guys really don't want my job...really. My hands are so tied up in state regulations that have no bearing in good parenting or teaching. I love what I do. 99% of it has nothing to do with the BS we've been discussing and most kids are really very good. Thankfully, we're at a Catholic school and douche bags aren't tollerated. We can and do "flush" bullies, jerks, liars, cheats and those whose parents refuse to get on board and parent. That being said, they end up somewhere and unfortunately, that somewhere is the public school system.

[KCSO]

Everybody is so afraid of getting sued that they miss the point, All that is required for evil to flourish...

My daughter had a knife pulled on her in school and put the knife puller into a wall face first. I fought her detention all the way to the shcool board, but she didn't serve a detention. Zero tolerance is BS and is just as bad as that goof from NY that wanted cops to shoot to wound. Too many rules are made by people who don't have to live in or deal with the real world. Bullies are on the rise in our schools because instead of getting their asses kicked they are time outed. The idea that NO ONE should ever be hit for ny reason only works for the bullies of the world.

I must quit now and go bang my head on the wall to reset my sanity.

[shooter2]

I'm with Jumptrap on this one. Bullying has gotten to be a severe problem in schools, in part, because schools have taken the stance that they're not going to get to the bottom of the problem, but take the easy way out and punish everyone, even the innocent. Well, maybe your hands are tied because of state regulations, but you've only yourselves to blame for that. If it's wrong, change it.

I'm for the old way, suspend the bully and insist that the parents return to school with him or her for counseling before reinstatement. If it persists, expel them. Three strikes and you're out.

Everyone, children included, has the right to protect themselves. That said, self protection does not extend so far as to include shooting the little ****s. Martial arts training would teach that and is highly recommended.

[KevMT]

Several of you have mentioned martial arts, and as it happens my son is about 2/3 the way to a black belt. He and I are both proud of the fact that in contact sparing he can beat me and most other adults. The zero tollerance crap is so embeded into the schools I don't know how you could ever get away from it. When he was in grade school, the teachers would set the kids at round tables as a group (touchy feely socialist crap) and then punish everyone at the table because one kid could never keep quiet. My son would come home in a fit asking me to explain why he should be constantly punished when he isn't doing anything wrong. For these and the other reasons I have mentioned we have been home schooling our son for the last 4 years. Although some folks have expressed concerns that our son might not be socialized correctly without school, the only thing I see missing from his socializations are the lack of 1) Lack of respect for adults 2) Focus on material posessions that make one "better" than everyone else. 3) Constant displays of sexuality. 4)Respecting the opinions and behaviors of other teen agers over those of adults.

[redneckdan]

Don't beleive the bull about home school kids "not socializing". As long as he's getting out of the house and hanging with some friends I don't beleive there is anything to worry about. He's better offer socializing with a group of more mature people such as his martial arts peers. I had 2 friends I hung with all the way from middle school through graduation, didn't talk to anyone else. These two guys were good people, real world down to earth.

[Jetwrench]

omgb, I am sure teaching is hell and no I would not want you job. That said, guess I am with jump on this one. Got an 11 yr old and 2 girls (preschool) I try to raise them with religon and courage. If my boy don't start it he is exped to finish it. And I stand behind him all the way. He has had some days off from school. I try to do something cool with him when that happens such as teach him something about the lathe or some such. He has been taught how to act with other people and I won't brook no disrespect. Martial arts teaches good values. Friends are often overated, a few is ok but too many will often lead to trouble. Jetwrench

[BeeMan]

You are obviously not alone KevMT.

Zero tolerance - Jump called it right, whatever the excuse the system tries to hide behind.

Done, and still doing the homeschool thing. Our older two forged out into private and public high schools respectively, but the two younger ones are thriving at home. Done right, a home education can leave other options in the dust. I'm pretty sure my wife has an inside track on beating the local options.:-D

In his first year of public school our 17 year old son has jumped to the head of his class academically. He is the lead athlete on the school's JROTC fitness competition team, is nearly an Eagle Scout, and is already in the Army National Guard. A few kids and one teacher in the local high school took issue with this performance. A quick martial arts move taught one hot headed kid a lesson. Restraint and maturity in not completely flattening the kid netted the respect of quite a few bystanders, so the system didn't get involved. The teacher is a character building challenge.

Bottom line is the school system doesn't work to solve problems, but caring involved parents make a difference. Maybe that's why God designed the family as the core unit of society?


Although some folks have expressed concerns that our son might not be socialized correctly without school, the only thing I see missing from his socializations are the lack of 1) Lack of respect for adults 2) Focus on material posessions that make one "better" than everyone else. 3) Constant displays of sexuality. 4)Respecting the opinions and behaviors of other teen agers over those of adults.

Well said!

Redneckdan, I don't agree with Kim DuToit on everything but printed that essay for keeps. He's back, check out http://www.theothersideofkim.com/

BeeMan

[Dutch4122]

If what we have today is "progress" I'm for retrogression.. Onceabull

Couldn't have said it better myself! Of course, that goes for just about every institution these days.

Isn't it odd that the courts were mentioned; another example of the fact that the courts and lawyers stick they're noses way too far into every single aspect of our society. We need to back way off the current mindset of civil litigation as a means to solve all of our disputes. This is at the very core of what is tearing our nation apart.

[KevMT]

Well, I guess I WAS looking for some positive feedback. . It is really encouraging to hear from you all and I thank you for your thoughts Unfortunately, when I speak of this problem with other people I frequently get the “well he’s just going to have to learn that life is not fair.” type of response. To me that translates to…. “Tell him that being honest and righteous is for chumps and the sooner he becomes a punk like his peers or lays down in the fetal position, the easier his life will be”.

OMGB has a good point in that when we blame teachers for these situations, many times they are just operating within the rules that the system has made for them. Unfortunately, I also think that many public school teachers, having a college education in Liberal arts with a minor in social engineering, are not doing justice by our children.

I REALLY like the idea that in those cases where he gets in trouble for doing the right thing, we make it a fun day with dad. I could use an excuse to play hooky too.

[redneckdan]

Redneckdan, I don't agree with Kim DuToit on everything but printed that essay for keeps. He's back, check out http://www.theothersideofkim.com/

BeeMan


nice to hear hes back, yup I agree with you, he ain't right on everything but sometimes he ain't far off the mark.

[Ivantherussian03]

Well, being a teacher I would like to say there is no subsitute for good parenting. And believe me it is a rare thing these days. I see a lot single parent homes. I see families where the teenagers run the parents. If parents dont teach values and morals; they will learn them from their peers. And teenagers being what they are they tend to gavitate to the lowest level, like rocks in the river.

[Blackwater]

Count me in as a member of the Jump Trap School of Cultural Regression. I understand that the schools have reason to fear the shyster lawyers, BUT ..... how's THAT more important than losing our cultural identity and principles????

When I got out of the Navy, and had to decide what field to get into when I went back to college, I considered teaching, but even back in '71, it was clearly evident that school administration and administrators were going for "style over substance." It's WAY worse now, and PART of the reason for this is that we, collectively as a nation at least, have ACEEDED to the stupidity that reigns in our school systems.

NOTHING is more important than the factories that "build" our leaders and followers for tomorrow, who will one day be taking care of US. NOTHING! Yet, we cower and whine when they perform their dastardly deeds. Now you may think I'm kidding here, but I'm really not. Nothing is going to change these people unless and until a substantial number of them pay a terrible price for the evil that they work in our nation today. This didn't usta' happen when we tarred and feathered some, and lynched a very, very few.

The only problem is, we pretty well can't do that without becoming something that's almost as bad, and THEREIN LIES THE REAL PROBLEM.

What's the solution? I dunno. I admit I'd LIKE to take up a bucket of hot tar and a sack full of feathers, but ..... well, you know I won't do that. In the first place, it'd be a totally vain endeavor, destined only to solidify the idjits' place in our current system. In the second, this kind of thing always gets turned, eventually, into too convenient and addictive "solutions" to problems that just don't QUITE merit it. And I'll be danged if I can come up with a real solution ..... but I DO keep thinking that ONLY something like this, PROPERLY applied, and curbed with lots of discretion, would be the ONLY real way to reverse the trends that are so pervasive and so perverse in our nation today.

You don't go after the King unless you KNOW you can kill him, and by "King," I refer to the evil in our society now, and it IS pervasive, and VERY vindictive.

It's my belief that the only thing that'll "cure" our nation now, very well may KILL it. That's Blackwater's Philosophy 101 for today, anyway.

It seems the whole world is choosing up sides - Good or Evil - and it's been prophesied for a long, long time that Evil would have its day. I believe it's coming, and it's coming on VERY strongly now, and I don't know a thing that'll reverse it. Our nation has proven that there's no hardship, no challenge, no problem that we can't endure and overcome .... EXCEPT, maybe our own success. Seems to me we've become like drunken whores, so engrossed in our own pleasures, wants, whims and illusions, that we now believe we're ALWAYS going to be "great," just .... well, just "Because!" That's always the precursor for a shocking wake up call, and I can't see why it'd be any different now .... because there ISN'T any reason why it should be any different now! NONE!

Can't remember who said it, but it's long been a truism that "Those who don't learn from the lessons of History are doomed to repeat them." 50 years ago, NO President of Iran, or any other nation, would DARE to say the things Amedinejad has said, and said REPEATEDLY recently.

And it all STARTED way back when we decided we'd TOLERATE abject, self-evident stupidity as "acceptable."

The only solace I know is the certainty that it WILL all come out like it's supposed to, in the end, and that the Throne of Judgment will settle ALL things with Ultimate Finality. Despite all the attempts at revisionism in "ways to think about the Bible," it's NEVER been wrong. And it never WILL be.

As to your son's problems with a day's suspension for doing right, if it were me, I'd just explain to him why the school is doing this, and let him know that it's WRONG, but that even if it IS wrong, they're still the @#$%^&* school, and as Christ had the courage to suffer HIS trials, and even crucifixion, he too will have to endure SOME wrongs in his life. Maybe this'll prepare him, as much as it CAN be prepared for, for the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey'd put it, that lies ahead for us all.

Just MHO of course, but that's the only thing that seems even half right here.

[walltube]

I have tried with all my might to not post a reply to this thread. It is my nature to avoid as politely as I may another parent's verbal agony over their child's difficulties at "school". KevMT's problems with a particular school system and the trolls in its' employ are none of my business. But, I could just not wrestle with my conscience knowing that it is KevMT's son in dire need of help, not Kev.




Kev, you came to this public forum, Cast Boolits, seeking counsel, advice or whatever ( an excellent place for it IMHO) and as such you are open to criticisim, constructive or not.


Sheesh! Get your son out of that G-d Damned institution. Public "schools" do not educate, they indoctrinate. They are the nemesis of intelligent thought. It is their sworn duty to emasculate your son that he may not be what Natural Law designed him to be: a MAN. Same program applies to daughters as well.

Be it private, parochial or home schooling; do it ASAP. Times a-wasting.

My grandchildren are now reaping the benefits of their parents decision to stay the hell away from Gov't. "schools" because their Mom & I fought the good fight for their moms & dads. We set the example.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap? I'm gonna die a happy old man :)

Good luck and best to you,

H.E. Leaming aka Walltube

[omgb]

When I jumped ship and went over to Catholic Education from the public schools back in '91 I made the best choice of my life. (except maybe the one I made to become a Christian or maybe the one I made to marry my wife or, well you get what I mean) any way, I'm not Catholic but dang folks, the Catholics do keep order, do teach honesty, to demand that parents parent, do hold kids and parents accounatable and do teach thinking skills as well as actual subject content. Yes, they are often full of liberals and a few peace-nicks, but in spite of all of that, they get the job done. If you have the chance, check them out. Your kids will be better off for it.

[shooter2]

When I jumped ship and went over to Catholic Education from the public schools back in '91 I made the best choice of my life. (except maybe the one I made to become a Christian or maybe the one I made to marry my wife or, well you get what I mean) any way, I'm not Catholic but dang folks, the Catholics do keep order, do teach honesty, to demand that parents parent, do hold kids and parents accounatable and do teach thinking skills as well as actual subject content. Yes, they are often full of liberals and a few peace-nicks, but in spite of all of that, they get the job done. If you have the chance, check them out. Your kids will be better off for it.

Smart move to go to a private school. Home schooling works also as my daughter and family have discovered. She's a "stay at home mom", teacher, chief cook and bottle washer and it shows in the way the kids are being raised.

Christian? You bet! I'm not Catholic either, but I admire the fact that they still seem to do a better job than most Christian schools. Some of the military schools also do a great job. Obviously, parenting is critical in raising good young men and women. IMHO, it's best to cut down on the size of your house and the number of toys you have and concentrate on raising your children. In other words. moms should stay home.

[onceabull]

Not the best day for espousing the virtues of catholic educ.at this house. Excerpted from the editorial page guest opinions, our local fishwrapper,article by ----- -------,legislative advocate,Catholic charities of ------"Currently the United States fails to provide immigrants with the means and ability to exercise their right to migrate"...omigawd... Onceabull

[454PB]

Actually, home schooling and public schooling are not mutually exclusive.....

Even way back when my kids were in school, I spent a lot of time "re-teaching" them.

[versifier]

I wouldn't put a kid through the sadistic nuns and kid-humping brutal jesuits I was subjected to. There were a few sincere nuns, and there were several excellent lay teachers, but I was some glad to be away from the brainwashing and beatings and into a public high school where I only had my fellow students to worry about. I still have scars, and some of them in places where they don't show. I gave up organized religion for Lent and never looked back. Maybe things have improved, but I would never put my kids at risk in such a place.

[omgb]

Not all Catholic schools are the same. We have only three nuns and no priests. In the past, the nuns and priests were brutal, no doubt about that. Times are different though. No corporal punishment, no brutality, no demeaning of students. There may be a few pedophiles still out there but they no longer get away with any thing.

[7br]

I have to chuckle about the success rates of private/religious schools versus public schools. I don't have the statistics to back it up, but I would lay a year's wages that one of the top five indicators of a kids success is the level of involvement of the parents. Kids that are in the private/religious schools are generally there because their parents care about them. Kinda follows that the parents will be involved with their kids. I never have worried about my kids going to public school because I knew my wife and I were behind them. I have long said that parent/teacher conferences are a waste of time. The involved parents will know about problems long before the conferences and the problem child's parent(s) won't show up.

[omgb]

Mark, I pretty much agree with what you say, parental involvement is the key. However, there is another thing to consider; quality of student. Private schools can insist on a uniform moral code and eject those who cannot or will not comply. Use drugs at our school and you're gone. Join a gan, you're gone. Hang around with gansters, you're gone. Act up in class and you get set down seriously. Do it more than ocasionally and you're gone. Make threats, you're gone. Skip more than 10 days in a semester and you're gone. Cut school twice and the third time you're gone. Get caught cheating and you get hammered. Do it twice and you are suspended. Third time in four years and you're gone.

We take no problem students. Become a problem student and either refuse counseling or fail to improve and you can go elsewhere. All of this means that our kids are there to learn and are about as safe as possible. Shoot, even nerds feel safe at our school. When schools tollerate vile, anti-social behavior or criminal activity they make it hard for the good kids to flourish. Too much is spent on troubled kids and the good ones get cheated out of the education they deserve. Kids who are neither ready to learn or who have deep social/personal problems eat up a tremendous amount of resources with very little positive result.

[omgb]

I wish I could just turn my back on a fist fight and let it run its course, I really wish I could. However, if I did, one of the parents would sue me for sure. And, since I was not following school policy as laid down by our tort lawyers, I would have to find my own council at my expense, would not be compensated for lost time and most likely would be suspended without pay. Then of course, there would be the matter of my credential. I would most likely have to surrender it if I lost. Then of course, I would be untouchable by any but the crappiest schools. My advice to kids is if they must fight, do it and accept the consequences knowing that many of us approve even though the courts force us to act otherwise.

[Bret4207]

My wife teaches, so does much of her family. That being said, it is my opinion that the WORST thing a parent can do to a kid is put him in public school. Unfourtunatley, by the time we figured this out we were too far in to be able to afford a 1 income household or private school. And I suppose making the sacrifice to be able to pay for private school wasn't something we were willing to do. That and the nearest private school is 2 hours away. No disrespect to any educator here, but for the most part teachers burn out as fast as cops, most are in it for the time off, and the school is nothing but a pillar to the glory of the Administration. Again, there are exceptions and I mean no disrespect to anyone involved here. Schools are a necessary evil. Fixing them is not possible under present conditions.

[omgb]

Burn out is a real problem. It comes from constant frustration and almost no positive feed back. I have so far avoided it due to the conditions under which I teach. I do get feed back and I am rarely frustrated since our school does not cater to non-performers or social miscreants. I completely understand the problem of paying for private education. Tuition and costs at my school run almost $9500 a year per child. Multiple children gets you a paltry 25% discount. Unfortunately, the reality is that it really does cost that much to educate a child here in the PRK. WE keep class sizes down to an average of 28 students per class with many classes having as few as 19. Pedagogically, that's the greatest. Economically, (were dollars not efficiency counts) that's the worst. Public schools in the area have a class limit of up to 40. It is humanly impossible to grade all of the papers and give guidance to 40 kids times 5 periods. That's 200 students a day. Teaching teens requires considerable personal input and that doesn't happen with large classes and heave student loads. Since we are non-profit we plow all monies not spent on teacher's salaries right back into building maintenance, utilities and technology. Not one dime goes unaccounted for and waste is rare. So the $9500 figure is the real cost per student. We have tried to pass a voucher measure here in PRK more than once and it keeps getting defeated. Public schools teachers and their unions scare the voters into believing that the money will all be spent by cults and weirdos, or that it will go to schools . that don't teach and aren't regulated by the state. What they really fear is a mass exodus of all of the good kids which would leave them with the troubled, and downright evil uneducatable dregs. So parents in the PRK who send their kids to private schools must double pay for education. It's a bum deal for sure.