Newbie with bismuth casting question

[handirifle]

I did do a search and my specific questions are not addressed, or so it seems.

I live in CA, the regions where lead is banned, and getting worse by the day it seems, and have some experience with casting bullets for the 38-55, 375 Win and 45-70, and my 50 cal ML.

I have come across a source of reasonably priced bismuth, when compared to lead free bullets anyway, and am thinking of casting the entire bullet from bismuth. The reason is, lead is banned, Barnes bullets are very expensive, and bismuth weighs about what lead does.

I have cast bullets from lead free solder and they are suprisingly accurate, but very light for caliber. Would the bizmuth harm the barrel at all? Would it be best if jacketed or even paper patched?

Would it expand. There is no problem getting it "approved" for use as I have discussed this with the Fish and Game Dept already.

Thanks ahead of time.

[waco]

ok....this one is over my head...sry

[handirifle]

Ha! it might be over mine too, but am hoping someone might have an educated guess.

[Marlin Hunter]

I don't think it would expand and I would paper patch. just my opinion. I have no experience. I don't think bismuth bird shot distorts on impact.

[JRW]

while i can not attest to the casting abilities of bismuth, i can tell you it should not harm the barrel as it is one of the least harmful options to shotgunning, and requires no special wads for such. its density is very close to lead. as for the accuracy in any rifle, the weight of the boolit has not as much to do as does the length (in caliber) ratio. big long formula for this math.

I can not speak for its expansion rate, as all my work with bismuth has been in shotguns, and the expansion is nil.

Hope this helps some.

[handirifle]

JRW
Thanks for the info. It wasn't an accuracy issue as much as a weight issue. For instance, the one cast from a 250gr mold for the 38-55 cast a 180gr bullet. too light for my tasts for penetration and energy retention.

Personally I am not as worried about expansion as energy.

I'm most considering this for my 375 Win, since there is no lead free option available.

Worst case scenario, I'll aim for the shoulders. I wanted to get some opinions about possible harm, before ordering.

[Linstrum]

Hi, handirifle, welcome to the board.

Pure bismuth won't damage gun barrels or cause "leading". It has a specific gravity of 9.79 and lead is 11.34 when pure, so like you said, bismuth would be good for making projectiles from because of being dense enough to efficiently transfer energy from the powder to the target, especially beyond 100-yards down range. Pure bismuth has some pretty undesirable properties, though. It is extremely brittle when quite pure, and has a fairly low melting point that coupled with its poor heat conductivity would cause melting of a bullet base unless some kind of protective cover like a gas check is used.

It's kind of interesting, when dueling was popular, sometimes pure bismuth was used to cast one of the bullets from while lead was used for the other, and the guy who made the challenge would make sure his opponent got the bismuth bullet in his dueling pistol since bismuth is so brittle that when it is used as a thin-walled hollow-base bullet it will break up into small grains that wouldn't cause much damage at 40 paces.

If bismuth is alloyed to increase its physical strength, its melting point is lowered even more. Cerro Safe is a bismuth alloy that melts below the boiling temperature of water, although that is kind of unusual to be that low, even for bismuth alloys. The lead-free bismuth solders I have used aren't too low in melting point to be used for pistol and low-power rifle loads, but in something like a .30-06, bismuth solder would be a real poor choice because of severe "leading" (bismuthing?).

If you have a friend with a lathe, make your own hunting bullets from copper, it isn't that difficult. For hunting you'd need a few to sight the gun and a few more for the actual hunt.


rl621

[sagacious]

...
I have come across a source of reasonably priced bismuth, when compared to lead free bullets anyway, and am thinking of casting the entire bullet from bismuth. The reason is, lead is banned, Barnes bullets are very expensive, and bismuth weighs about what lead does.
I have poured with bismith alloys and a friend of mine works with it almost exclusively.

You need to contact your supplier for an appropriate bismuth/tin alloy. Pure bismuth will not work at all, as it is far too brittle. Popular alloys range from 90Bi/10Sn down to 50Bi/50Sn. The more bismuth, the more brittle the bullets will be. I do not think you will be able to use anything more than 70Bi/30Sn, and I would strongly suggest the 50/50 alloy to start with, since anything with more bismuth will be quite hard and brittle. Bismuth expands when it cools (lead shrinks slightly) and so it's common for small bismuth castings to hang in the mold cavities and require a hard tap to knock them free.


I have cast bullets from lead free solder and they are suprisingly accurate, but very light for caliber. Would the bizmuth harm the barrel at all? Would it be best if jacketed or even paper patched?
Yes, lead-free solders will pour fine-- but expensive-- bullets. Bismuth won't be any cheaper, but I reckon you're not looking for huge production volume.

Bismuth will not hurt the barrel in any way. Treat it as a normal cast bullet and load with the normal safety caveats in mind. No jacket or paper patch is needed.


Would it expand. There is no problem getting it "approved" for use as I have discussed this with the Fish and Game Dept already.

Thanks ahead of time.
No, bismuth will not expand at all. It will predictably shatter into fragments if it's pure bismuth or a high-bismuth alloy. A pure bismuth bullet may break clean in half if crimped too hard. Even 50Bi/50Sn might shatter if it hits bone.

I cannot adress the topic of bismuth as an approved lead subsitute in lead-free hunting areas, so I trust you've done your homework there. Even so, I cannot recommend bismuth for this application. Personally, I think you'd be much better served by zinc bullets (if they are or could be approved for your application) than bismuth, but zinc will not expand either.

Hope this helps. Good luck and stay safe!

[Bret4207]

I suppose moving is out of the question? Your laws make NY look absolutely sane.

[243winxb]

Email to peope at this site said Bismuth not good for casting bullets. :confused:Look here http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm Bismuth 58%
Tin 42% Melts at 281 F Bismuth alloys that do not contain Lead expand during solidification
Properties of Fusible Alloys
The chief component of Fusible Alloys is Bismuth, a heavy, coarse crystalline metal that expands when it solidifies. Water and Antimony also expand on freezing, but Bismuth expands much more than the former, namely 3.3% of its volume. When Bismuth is alloyed with other metals, such as Lead, Tin, and Cadmium, this expansion is modified according to the relative percentages of Bismuth and other components present. As a general rule, Bismuth alloys of approximately 50 percent Bismuth exhibit little change of volume during solidification. Alloys containing more than this tend to expand during solidification and those containing less tend to shrink during solidification.
After solidification, alloys containing both Bismuth and Lead in optimum proportions grow in the solid state many hours afterwards. Bismuth alloys that do not contain Lead expand during solidification, with negligible shrinkage while cooling to room temperature.
bullet Most molten metals when solidified in moulds shrink and pull away from moulds, failing to reproduce fine mould detail. Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes. This characteristic of expansion and/or non-shrinkage, combined with low melting temperature and ease of handling, are the major reasons for their extensive use. A number of eutectic* and non-eutectic alloys have been standardized.

[fredj338]

I suppose moving is out of the question? Your laws make NY look absolutely sane.

Just wait a bit. Stupid laws like this have a way of making it to any liberal state, like NY.
Too much drama here. Just go to a copper bullet like the Barnes. You may have to hunt w/ your .375win as a single shot, but workable. Recheck the game laws. Hunitng w/ a solid may also violate game laws.

[handirifle]

LOTS of good info here, as I was hoping. Thanks to all. It looks like it may not work because of the brittle part. Bummer.

As for expansion, even the F&G has no definition for that, so any widening of the bullet would qualify it as expanding. If you think about it, even if they found a lead based bullet that hit a deer at, say 400yds plus and just the nose distorted, they'd have to admit it expanded. If they start saying something like, it must expand to at least 1.5 times the caliber, then it would be nearly impossible to enforce, since just about every bullet out there would fail to meet the criteria, at least under certain conditions, like long shot, only soft tissue hit, etc.

Yea our laws are nuts, at least the gun related ones, but just wait, Bloomberg is doing his best to top us.


As for the Barnes suggestion, I've posted the threads at other forums where I have been working on this same idea.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,27010.0.html

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?t=5008&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

It looks like they might still be the best answer. One other suggestion, from others, was to locate someone with a CNC and get a price for a bunch to be made up.

The thing about the Barnes, is they are a preset dia and design, and some of my rifles do not group them well, and at their prices that adds up.

[StarMetal]

Here's a thing you may have overlooked. Say you cast bismuth bullets and you're out hunting in that no lead area and you get stopped by a game warden. How you going to convince him the bullets aren't lead???? Seems like you could regret it.

Joe

[handirifle]

Here's a thing you may have overlooked. Say you cast bismuth bullets and you're out hunting in that no lead area and you get stopped by a game warden. How you going to convince him the bullets aren't lead???? Seems like you could regret it.

Joe

Nope haven't overlooked that at all. In order to legally hunt in these areas you have to have an "pre approved" bullet, and I can get that done easily. just would have to carry the approval letters, that's all.

[waksupi]

Is there a supplier where you can buy bismuth shot for a reasonable price? I'm looking for some #5 or #6 size.

[handirifle]

Is there a supplier where you can buy bismuth shot for a reasonable price? I'm looking for some #5 or #6 size.

Non that I know of. http://www.rotometals.com/Bismuth-s/4.htm these guys sell bismuth in ingots. I guess you could make your own shot if you have the know how and tools.

[Bret4207]

Yea our laws are nuts, at least the gun related ones, but just wait, Bloomberg is doing his best to top us.




Bloomberg is the lame duck mayor of NYC, has nothing to do with the rest of the state. Trust me, I'm no where near NYC!

[Bret4207]

Email to peope at this site said Bismuth not good for casting bullets. :confused:Look here http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm Bismuth 58%
Tin 42% Melts at 281 F Bismuth alloys that do not contain Lead expand during solidification

The "experts" have told us a lot of stuff that didn't pan out. You watch, someone will try it and make it work.

[Ricochet]

If we change alloys from lead, what are we going to call metal fouling? Will we be discussing the best ways to remove "bismuthing" or "zincing?"